Saeed Farani: There is no shortcut to success. You are doing more than many of us and we thank you very much. Basically such issues need advertising and backing of affluent people in Punjab. Otherwise, more and more Punjabi language organizations and chapters across Punjab is most desirable. Publicity of the issue is name of the game in this world.

My hunch is that we are in for a major shake-up in national mindset. It might come with the hard collapse of present dictatorial regime, whenever it comes. The public interest in governance and governments is running at all time low. This appears to be a calm before the bang. People are fed up with the status quo based on TNT(2 nations theory) baggage, that is leading us nowhere. The issue of Punjabilanguage will come up definitely once nation goes through thorough introspection.We are falling behind, we are failing and we are collapsing. There is limit to downward slide that a nation can absorb. Beyond that business as usual is unacceptable.

To support the medium of education is a task in its own right. Despite government support and efforts, Urdu medium is still not become a full fledge medium of education. At some stage, one has to expose to the learning in English.

In view of the above, thinking of introducing Punjabi as a medium, I think, is out of question because it requires lot of resources, efforts and time which no one can mobilize at this stage not even the government. One has to prepare the syllabus, train teachers and establish boards to support the education and its day to day operational needs. It is a gigantic task and takes ages to become stable.

The other option seems simple. Introducing Punjabi language as a compulsory subject. Now, everyone is crying for the huge bags children are carrying – another subject will be a burden anyway. However, if we convince the authorities and have the syllabus and books revised to reduce the burden and add local language a subject, the need of teachers who can teach Punjabi will be required. Do you think, one can get these teachers easily? It is easy to say that anyone can teach Punjabi but I think it is not a right approach. One has to establish Academy of Punjabi Literature to train teachers. How much funding is required in addition to the time and devoted efforts.

Third option is to create a model school where you can have the idea of schooling in Punjabi language is fully tested and explored and then it can be expanded to other areas but there should not be any attempt to standardize Punjabi language. Each district should get the learning in its own accent and style to avoid exploitation.

Bali, Since I don't know much historical or religious background of RakhRi, I always thought the opposite of what I am hearing from you. I thought the sister ties the rakhRi on brothers wrist wishing safety of him(and not protection of her). I thought it was bhra di rakh/sukh mangni. Whatever it is, it certainly might be considered a play by kids, a reason to expect gifts by some grown ups:-), but mostly it is a sweet moment to remind you that you have a loving sister or brother..and that matters the most. If I were to rename it, I would rename it as Sister's Day(not brother's day).

Saeed ji, The question of Punjabi is two fold in my view. Political(concerning punjabis collectively) as well as personal(how one feels indiviually about it). Fight should be done at both levels. Individually, every Punjabi should take pride in their mother language, teach it to their kids, speak it at homes and encourage this beahavior among our friends, family and area of influence. Second front is also as important and political activism to save and promote Punjabi among Punjabis and in Punjab must happen. This front is an area of controversy as you can be easily labeled as anti-religious, anti-nationalist, separatist, ethnocist etc etc. Since both fronts are related and anyone taking the cause of Punjabi is automatically labeled as separatist or anti-nationalist, it is bound to impact people's personal behaviour towards the language. No common person will like to be called anti-nationalist. and there lies the problem. Punjabi lobby needs a leadership that can convince the rest of the people that there is nothing wrong being Punjabi and Pakistani (or Indian) at the same time.

PaRhayoo likhhayoo mil baithhoo
Koe aisa jattin karo
Ek dujay da kawRa maazi
Ral kay daffan karo
Aapas day wich pyar waday
Koe aisa chalan karo
Muk jaway aay bayaitbari
Aisa karan karo
PaRhayoo likhhayoo mil baithhoo
Koe aisa jattin karo

I love the idea of Rakhi but only as a celebration of brotherly sisterly love, without the other connotations. I celebrate it as just that!

Most of the rituals in most religions are patriarchal in nature. The priesthood in all religions is a male business. Muslim unmarried men can go to Haj alone, women can't. The animal sacrifice is carried out all over the world by men. I can easily reproduce a list of rituals from Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism in which are patriarchal in nature. Inclusion of cultural heritage actually decreases the patriarchal nature of religions, for example, Holi and Diwali are not as much men dominated and patriarchal as other strictly religious rituals. Look at the positive side. At least women are a necessity in RakhRi celebration. Are women a necessity in praying, fasting, Haj, going to temples, going to gurdawaras, going to church etc? Those are all rituals with each individual looking after himself or herself. RakhRi is the one that remains incomplete without ladies, women and sisters. This in itself is an improvement over "for men only" and strictly enforced patriarchy.

The first step towards equal treatment and emancipation is women's equal participatioin and RakhRi does just that.

Raksha Bandhan is I believe widely accepted as a Hindu custom marking the love and affection between brothers and sisters, but we even being Sikh have always celebrated it in a simple way. I would wake up early and tie a colorful thread on my brothers wrist and something sweet to eat, and he would give me presents! Hence, I'm reluctant to give it up :-))

There are many Hindu legends that signify the importance of the Rakhi in India. For me it just a time of year when my brother had to give me something other than the usual perfunctory thump! I think of it just as a day for brothers and sisters to celebrate the special bond they have. Just as we all celebrate Mothers Day, and Fathers day.

Its easy though to view raksha bandhan as an expression of patriarchal culture. It is, after all, the brother who extends his protection to his sister, and the woman who, in a manner of speaking, agrees to place herself under the protection of her brother. I personally think its time to bring all Punjabi festivals in line with the day and age we live.

For instance, we still celebrate lohri but it should be celebrated for boys and girls. I personally don’t think of Raksha Bandan as a religious thing although perhaps some do…anyone???

Sameer,

Displaced Persons is exactly what I meant by DP. There is an earlier post pointing to that. I am not aware of any derogatory term used in the same context. That was news to me. I call those DPs (Displaced Persons) who had to leave due to safetry concerns and hence still have longing for their homeland, which is understandable. On the other hand, immigrants left of their own accord to pursue better opportunities newly born state of Pakistan or just for their genuine love of Nazria-e-Pakistan. I hope, I didn't offend anybody!

Now some people at least invoke a response regardless of how angry. But, some are not even worth that.;) Their attention grabbing gimicks are duely noted though.

Regards

Dullabhatti, the new number involves a 2 and 3 although not necessarily in that order. Its all good! Another year of experience in the school of life!

Any readers/writers out in Seattle? Hope to meet you at the Gurdas Maan show tommorrow night. Oops self promotion and entertainment, shameless am I not? :-))

Actually couple of times I wondered why the said person is saying exactly opposite mindset of what is commonly known as DPs strong backing of TNT.

Although I had decided not to interact with you, but I have to intervene here. Why are you after Bali? And, yes she is a female than a male(something that you think of all who interact on a discussion board). You are constantly provoking her unnecessarily. Please look into it seriously!

Thanks!!!

Bali,

I avoid debate with open enemies. My concern is "aasteen ke saanp", they are lethal and can only be ingnored at one's peril. There you have you me!

PS: I forgot to mention that the love of "brothers" across the border for Pakistan is one of the primary factor in Pakistan lagging behind. Countrymen and DPs please make a note of it!

Sameer, tusi awein apni poochh nu agg lagai phirde O janaab..tuhanu kisay nai bann'ni rakhRi...tusi bass chhallay mundiaN naal guzaara karo:-).

Happy RakhRi day to all brother-sister relationships. I guess it is on August 22?

What we lack as a nation(Pakistanis) is the fervor to promote our regional languages. All four regions have beautiful folk lores and themes that can be best understood in the native languages. Somehow, there is some reluctance to promote those languages. Foreign Affairs Magazine quoted last year that 65% of Pakistani population consisted of Punjabis. In that respect, the language deserves its right. And, any other argument should be slapped back and buried alive!

This board has wasted enough time and energies on fighting back and forth on Urdu vs. Punjabi. There is no comparison and there will be no comparison. Both languages have their own merit. It's about putting time and efforts in pursuing a cause. And, if the efforts are genuinely routed towards a noble cause, they will be inshallah well rewarded. Just from my personal experience: To pursue any cause one has to put one's best foot forward but without any bitterness. Take that bitterness out of the system. If it will stay in there then it will become poisonous and that will always hamper the progress of the cause than letting one move forward with full effervesence. This is true about anything in life. It requires self discipline and that must be acquired to lead a peaceful, content and progressive future.

Most of the interactors and participants on thsi board are adults, including me :) Keeping that in mind, one should not lose one's cool when stating one's point. Also, it's neither cool nor effective to use foul language, ridiculous expressions and dirty connotations to make your point. Being a female(I had to emphasize that), I am simply disgusted to read the above from anyone. It's not about maintaining the decorum. It's about showing your mindset and what lies inside. We all do not know each other and get to know about each other through the words and thoughts we express on this board. Now, if I read XYZ with all the horrible horrible thing he writes, then deep down inside I will have an impression of him. Once I form that impression then I will be prone to thinking that's what he/she is. Once that happens that I will be prejudiced. In reality that fellow may be an angel in disguise. Please do not make others form false impression of you. Well, only if that matters.

Please no more Larayain!!!

. . . . . ( GEET ) . . . .

Aa sajnaaN, aa moR mohaaraaN
Ghhin saawan diaaN chassaaN
Jaa wasyooN kis thhaar operi
NaaN saaraaN naaN dassaaN
. . . . Aa sajnaaN, aa moR moharaaN

KaaliaaN badlaaN rim jhim laai
Omad omad meri jiNd tarssai
Tere binaaN mera hor na kaai
Jis de saNg meiN hassaaN
. . . . Aa sajnaaN, aa moR moharaaN

Sik sadhraaN di maari jiNdRi
Tunn munn de iklaape cha ke
MooNjhaaN aNg sarir dokha ke
Das meiN keRhi raohi wassaaN
. . . . As sajnaaN, aa moR moharaaN

Chan chaRsi kis paase Eid da
Moaqa milsi kadooN deed da
TahNgaaN meri neiNd waNjaai
JholiaaN pichhe nassaaN
. . . . Aa sajnaaN, aa moR moharaaN

1. Ghhin= Enjoy
2. Thhaar operi= Strange place
3. Saraan= news
4. MooNjhaaN= Loneliness
5. Raohi= Desert of South-West Punjab. It relates to the love epic of Sassi-PonooN 6. Wanjaai= Disturb

The experiment with the hypothesis of Islamic Republic in Pakistan has resulted in pathetic state of affairs in every field. It started off with ethnic cleansing and continued a downhill path ever since. It has produced AHs like Musharraf and Zia Ul Haque. The plundering of Pakistani resouces, revenues and cultures is continuing unabated.

We need a revolution of thought based on cultures and progressive ideas instead of retrogressive Islamic state of mind that does nothing but keeps looking back and back, all the way to seventh century Arabia for guidance and blueprints for living in twenty first century.

Some people have the guts to consider superiority of their language of choice and being abusive at the same time. Whose posts are deleted most at this site for using foul language? Once using foul language fails, trying to divide punjabis is applied. The relegation of Punjabi to secondary level with respect to Urdu at this site is accepted but not respected by most Punjabis. It is personal choice but the gospel of Urdu makes no converts. End of the story.

Somewhere I read that 'Muhammad Bin Qasim, Mehmood Ghaznavi, Ghauri etc. are our heros'.

It beats me how any human being, even more a Punjabi could consider these rapists, plunderers, murderers hero's! There is was nothing holy about their invasions, they were about as ungodly as you could get, 5 vaar namaaz par layi te lakhaaN de saahb naal injaana de atil kar laye, sohni gal e. Still there are people who consider them hero's. I suppose I should not be surprised as there are still some misguided souls who consider Hitler an angel sent from God.

Perhaps somebody can shed some light on this!

Saeed Farani,

Your diatribe may appeal to nostalgic and naive, but leaves me (2nd generation Pakistani born to post-partition Parents) utterly unmoved and vindicated. The miseries of Pakistani masses are byproduct of many factors and can hardly be laid at the doorstep of any language.

What Pakistani masses need is a class revolution not lisaani fitna. It's understandable that the latter serves the interests of ethnocentric, but the lot of poor is not going to change by merely replacing one interest group with another.

Regards

You don't understand our pains. You don't know how much miserable are our lives with all this drama of Urdu and so-called Nazriya-e-Pakistan. Here let me clear that I don't hate any religion but its misuse and exploitative role which is very clear here in Pakistan. Unfortunately,we Punjabi Muslims are nowhere, niether in Makka nor in Punjab. We, Punjabies, are landless, languageless, ethicless and even thoughtless creature on the globe. We are a group of horses, donkeys and bulls whose remotes are in others hands. We are being exploitd badly on the name of religion and so called one natioanal language. A common Punjabi Muslim is considered as chooRa in the eyes of so called civilised Urdu speaking mafia. This mafia paints us as the mother of all curses in media specially in electronic media as well as print media. Being majority of this country we are being treated as worst than minority. We are far away from education. We are far away from the benefits of modern technologies. Our all the resources and brains are hijacked on the name of so called nazrya-e-pakistan and Urdu. Our youth is moulded into the shape of a weapon in the hands of the exploiters. We are not living like a liberal and human loving persons as our great sufis' teachings are there for us. We are torn out into non-sense peices as Sunni, Shia, Moduadvi, Raywindi, Brailvi, Deobandi and so many other sects. We are ready to kill each others. We are badly divided in different sort of classes. We could not grow as a unit. And you don't see such all cruelities and you preach Urdu and urduism. Urdu is not a simply a language case, it is a cover over all such exploitations of this region. Your writings pinch us when you give blame us for all injustices in Pakistan. We are not those basterd punjabies, Muhajirs or Pathans who had taken the rights of other nationalities as well as their own nationalities, we are really poor and helpless punjabies who can't teach their kids even their mother tongue. You are really either the most stupid man or very cunning person who think like this about the people and languages of this country. I talked with many top elite who are born here in Punjab on Punjabi issue. They (unfortunately most of them) hate the word Punjab and Punjabi. If someone hates punjab and punjabi how he can be considered as Punjabi. If someone kills such opressors we don't mind. Imran, it is very strong group of rascals or badmaash who don't have any love for the land or people but they just love their own interests. They fill thier hell like bellies. They fill their bank accounts in these so called civilsed nations' banks. If you see on the top of our ruling elites you would find such group of wolves who have same sort of interests in this region. They get their share on the name of Pakistan, Islam or so called democracies. How masses live and pass their lives it is not their concern. They don't and cannot encourage Punjabi because it will hinder their way and interests. They are afraid of giving real power to the masses (punjabies, pathans, sindhis and balochs). They know the threats which will come to their kingdom which they have estabished on the name of religion. This Siraiki-Punjabi issue is also their one of the weapons. But how long they can supress the rights of the masses. I firmly believe such injustices will not prevail long.

MTM,

I apalogise for my transgression. I didn't mean to demean Punjabi. Urdu is my language of CHOICE (not birth), though.

This post can be removed afterwards, well, it will be. But, I find it necessary to point out some ******** (Sameer and Farani being in the fore-front) here who are hijacking sincere efforts of Punjabi activists like Dr. Manzur and Safir.

Best Regards

If everyone says BIRTHDAY TO BALI JEE then why i should left behind...........MANY HAPPY RETURNS OF THE DAY BALI JEE

Bali ji: happy birthday! Hope the new number is not very painful to tell about:-).

GujjHi Satt Maar geya Hain Mittr

qadr-e-laal-e-oo, bajuz aashiq, na daanad haich kass.
qeemat-e-yakoot daanad, chashm-e-gauhar baar-e-maaN.

oops..ay te koi hor ee languagee bann gai...lagda main urdu toN vi ziyada intellectual ho giyaN...eh gall te changi nai hui..kiyoN ke mainu changi taraN pata ke eh pharsi wale urdu waleya nu injh vekhde ne jiweiN Chaudhary, maraasiaN di kutti vall.:-)

Phair aai rut sawan di
Phair barsi aay barsaat
Phair chan lukaya badlaaN oolay
Phair shaa kaali raat
Phair dil nouN jaa habsaaN phhaRaya
Phair wich kalli zaat
Phair souchaaN day magray magray
YadaaN di baaraat
RutaaN naiN taaN muR muR aowna
MuR muR phhutnai paat
Mar kay phair naaN muRna aithhay
Aay kujh din da saath
Jo we milayaa saath ghaneemat
Jo we labayaa waqt soughaat

Bali: Thank You :)

Bali: Thank You :)

Religions, nationalities and national languages in South Asia have not produced the above desirable goals. They had the free hand for centuries. In Pakistan, limiting ourselves to Ghalib, Iqbal, Urdu and Islam have actually incresed disorderliness, unhappiness, injustices, class based society, poor economic conditions and authoritarianism. The imposition of homogeneity over diverse cultures in the name of creating unity and nationalistic feelings according to narrow interpretation of state ideology has not worked. We have already witnessed indiscriminate brutal treatment of Balochis, Bengalis, Sikhs and Kashmiris in only 55 years of independence just because centers disageed with the reasonable or unreasonable aspirations of those people. The central governments tend to forget that current nationalities are mere 55 years old wheras cultural identities are hundreds or thousands of years old. During the last 500 years, Punjab was not part of any Indian Empire for about 100 years and during the last 2000 years, for almost 1000 years, the aresa of current Punjab was again not part of any larger subcontinent empire. Same is more true for Tamils and Keralites. Why should all these people dump whatever beautiful cultures they evolved just because of British Raj, Jinnah and Nehru? The federal government will be better of promoting diversity and allowing its flowering. Punjabis can not take their Punjab and move it to Mars. It will remain where it is now. Any forced assimilation into larger Islamic/ Urdu or Indian/ Hindi cultures will backfire, sometimes with vengence. It did not work even with cultures with much smaller numbers; Punjab is too big a bite to swallow. The repatriation of Urdu speaking Biharis from Bangladesh is unpopular in Pakistani Punjab and granting permanent residency and voting rights to seasonal Bihari and Upite workers is unpopular in Indian Punjab. Wouldn't it be logical to conclude that Pakistani Punjabis are not in love with Urdu as someone is trying hard to prove. Otherwise why would they oppose repatriation of fellow Urdu speaking Muslims from Bangladesh? Let's see if any candidate from anywhere in Punjab in the forthcoming election can win on a platform of bringing Ursu Muslims from BD to Paunjab. On the other hand many supporters of Punjabi language, mostly from PPP, will win.

Regards

http://www.punjabilok.com/faith/sikh/history_granth_sahib.htm

Guru Gobind Singh was a prolific poet as well as a soldier. The fact that they are at the helm of the Sikh religion perhaps sometimes overshadows this fact.

We grant you another couple of billion seconds of healthy and happy life.

From:

god, allah, rub and bhagwan

From:

god, allah, rub and bhagwan

Sameer,

Punjabi magazines and newspapers don't get any government advertisement due to their dismal readership. As it turns out Punjabis themselves don't like reading sub-standard material and would rather read Jang, Musawat etc. It's not that they cannot read Punjabi, as it is written in Shahmukhi. I don't think it's fair to blame government for not advertising in low circulation zines be they in any language.

Like I said earlier the ruling Punjabi elite dread losing their privileges currently being enjoyed on the back of proportional population of Punjab. Once Punjab is broken into Sariaki, Pothohar, Hindko etc. provinces, they will lose their clout and a fair system of distribution of national resources will ensue. I can't blame them for looking out for their interests.

The last paragraph of yours is in conformation with my argument that majority of Pakistan excepting DPs have no love lost for India. What they perceive as enemies like Muhammad Bin Qasim, Mehmood Ghaznavi, Ghauri etc. are our heros. Nice missile naming schemes the establishment has come up with, inline with majority of its population. Good job!

You are mistaken my friend, I am not threatened by Punjabi at all! I am rather concerned at its becoming extinct at the hands of none other than Punjabis really fast without any external intervention. No level of political patronization, protection can reverse that.

Regards

Quite the contrary to your statement, the DP's are actually least interested because they live mostly in cities and dominate Punjabi bureaucracy both at central and provincial level. The Punjabi immigrants from East Punjab even dominate parts of Karachi and Sindhi establishments.

Notice manipulation of Punjabi politics by agencies. They make sure to have weak leadership on the top usually from a smaller tribal identities from Lahore. They do need powerful Jats and Rajputs to win, because they can win on their own on biradri basis. Right now the real power in Sarkari Muslim League is Punjabi Jats under the leadership of Chaudhry brothers from Gujrat but the president of the party is a weakling, Mian Azhar, from Lahore. This is how they can control Punjab. They know too well that powerful Jat/ Rajput people like Manzur Watto can put together powerful biradri based allainces which agencies, PPP or PML can not break easily. Controlling Punjab is the most important feather in establishment's cap and spread of Punjabi awareness of their culture could become the biggest hurdle to establishment's control of Punjab's fate.

Islam and Urdu are the best tool in establishment's arsenal to deal with the culture-based Punjabi awareness. The establishment will make sure that Punjabis remain unaware of the plunders of Abdali and ruthlessness of Ghaznavi and Ghauri in Punjab. How else can they name their misslies after these plundererd, thugs and murderers? You know this very well and this is perhaps the main reason for your stand against Punjabi language. You feel threatened by the impact of Punjabi language acceptance as equal, because it will undoubtedly be detrimental to the Urdu-based indoctrination of Punjabis, through govenment controlled media and pulpits, into loving and admiring plunderers, thugs and murderers who happened to be Muslims. Punjabi can not be associated with Islam the way Urdu is.

Bali,

I think it would be best, if we didn't communicate, unless, of course, you have something substantial to add to the topic under discussion. Please make a note of it!

Correction:
"Samay Ka Panchhi" should be read as "Panchhi Kay Janay Ka Samay".

Dr. Zaki,

Rabindranath Tagore didn't win noble prize in Punjabi. Now, did he? He is perhaps better known for his "Samay Ka Panchhi" and "Geeta Najli" in our part of the world. Let's remain focused on Punajbi intellectuals achievments in Punajbi and Urdu literature.

Kamran,

Ghalib wrote poetry in Persian for most of his life, but it was his Urdu poetry that made him immortal. Nobody has denied that Urdu borrows from Persian and Arabic among others. Actually, that's exactly what makes it an enriched language.

Sameer

You somehow, seem to be under the impression that the state of Pakistan is forcing Punjabis to not speak Punjabi, which couldn't be further from truth. Never mind the fact that Punjabis themselves are opting for Urdu and will continue to as long as the Urban sprawl continues. you are grossly mistaken about Punjabi as an instrument of amity between India and Pakistan. The fact is that barring few DPs (Displaced Persons due to 1947), majority of Pakistanis lack any affinity across the border regardless of obvious commonalities.

Regards

PS: Ohoho, poor shikra and bali now claiming to be victims. I have no problem coming down to your kind's level. Just keep that in mind for future reference!!!
This post has no offensive language, merely facts. Why was it deleted?

Nobody has shown any disdain for Ghalib here except me disliking elitism through choosing way too many Persian and Arabic words in Urdu literature than the spoken Urdu. It is not just Punjabi in comparison with Urdu; it is the rights of the language of majority Pakistanis. We did the same stupid mistake before with majority Pakistanis – Bengalis. With dead Tagore and living Qazi Nazar Ul Islam, we imposed Urdu on them until 1956. What did we get? The seeds of Bangladesh independence were sown by Urdu in addition to Punjabi/ Urdu elite domination of power.

The surge in Punjabi language activism is not bad for Pakistan and I grant you that it will lower the importance of Urdu language. However, you are not counting the benefit in geo-political terms. The acceptance of Punjabi in Pakistani Punjabi will go far beyond effecting Punjab or Punjabis. It will tremendously increase the interaction and understanding between two brothers living separately – Indian Punjabis and Pakistan Punjabis and improve good friendly relations between two neighbors – India and Pakistan. Nobody in India or Pakistan should have any doubt that without a brotherly relationship between two Punjab, somehow tensions between India and Pakistan can be eased. Punjab is the key to normalization of relationships and Punjabi language helps it. Although it helps more with Sikhs than Hindus but that is a separate and unrelated issue.

PUNJAB PUNJAB BROTHERS

INDIA PAKISTAN NEIGHBORS

Nothing better than a good relationship with brother as neighbor. Why not kill two birds with one precious stone. An Indo-Pak joint conference on Ghalib will be good for Urdu literature only whereas a similar conference on Bulley Shah will be good in easing tensions in addition to being good for Punjabi language.

pahli: Aa nee bahnaa laReeay
duji: LaR di you mairee jutti
pahli: jutti mar kissay apnay lagday nouN
bus phhair chal sou chal..................

you can determine Moral of the story by yourself.......
regards

1)Rabindernath Tagore (1923): (Noble Prize for Literature).
2)Chandrashekar Venkat Raman(1930): Noble Prize for Physics.
3)Hargobind Khorana (1968): Noble Prize for Medicine.
4)Mother Teresa (1979): Noble Prize for peace.
5)Abdul Salaam (1979): Noble Prize for Physics.
6)Subramenian Chandrashekar (1983): Noble Prize for Physics.
7)Amraytya Sen (1998): Noble Prize in Economics.

Moreover, Khorana and Salaam were certainly Punjabis. Do you know what kind of vicious campaigns Pakistani fundamentals had against Dr. Salaam after he won Noble prize? He is simply not recognized any way in Pakistan, because he was an Ahmadi.

Sameer,

Find me an Hindu, Sikh intellectual equivalent of Ghalib, Iqbal and so on. I can name ample Punjabi intellectuals who are best known for their Urdu expressions. Urdu doesn't need any vehicle - religion or political. It has its own - an exceptional repertoire of world-class literature that has managed to survive and will continue to on the back of >market forces alone. Quality literature (in any language) doesn’t need any sort of protection: government or otherwise.

For people like myself who focus on meaning rather than sound, "welcome", "khush amadeed" convey the same emotions as "jee aayaN nuN". I can understand Punjabi language activists' (or any other for that matter) concern in protecting their language. But, this should be done in a way that doesn't condemn Punjabi children to mob mentality and expose them to manipulations of ethnocentric resulting in unintended consequences. In a multicultural society like Pakistan, all cultures have to grow in parallel. As they say, “variety is spice of life”.

Regards

On a relatively serious note, Mehr Ali and Shaer Ali have sung a number on Punjabi and that was the only number they could do justice to. Nusrat's albums has that qawwali as well but it ain't the same. It's the same thing if you here a particular Raag from Nusrat's CD, like Amir Khusro's poetry. He has done great justice to those but after listening to Abida Parveen singing the same, I questioned what the hell. Mind you, I do like Abida Parveen as she has the vigor and stamina to sing or va'vaela machao-fy(shoar sharaba) after getting dead drunk(this part I am not a fan of but I do like her folk songs). Take Care. SafiR Rammah:I owe the well put together poem/kafi/qawwali/mystical karishma to the readers and will submit that inshallah soon. I will hope that will find a "home" on this ezine somewhere, it better. My hardwork ain't getting rullo-fied here and there. Please make a note of it.

Thanks.

The biggest advantage of using English alphabets, with most people knowing either Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi, is to be able to communicate without downloading fonts and learning each other's script. If you can make a strong case that it is harmful to Punjabi language, I will definitely take it seriously.

Gobinder, I have seen the site you talk about, it is indeed very resourceful.

Maira sohna des Punjab
JevaiN khhiRaya phhul gulab
Jiddi dharti nouN pay ral kay
Punj darya karan sairab
……………… Maira sohna des Punjab
Aithay jehlam sutluj ravi
Pai laounday rang massawi
Chhal utthdi wich bayas day
Payaa wainda roz chunnab
……………… Maira sohna des Punjab
Aithhay sufiaaN dairay laaye
Aithhay sadouaaN khair kamaaye
Aithhay sunntaaN dard wandaaye
Her dil keetaa shaadaab
……………… Maira sohna des Punjab
Aidee bolee mitthRay bol
Dil sunn sunn jaanday dol
Aithay khhulay dullay loki
JevaiN khhuli darass kitaab
……………… Maira sohna des Punjab

MTM Ji: Koi uss da social security number? Koi driving licence number? Badshaho kidhre NY de aaley dwale hey teh ohnuN kannaN tuN pakaR ke huzoor de samne paish ker deyaN gey. Tusi hukam te karo

Shikra Ji: BuzurgaN diyaN bad-duawan tu bachna chahida ae.

Hassan,

Regards

Jiddi AkhaaN mairay dil wich keta aay tthekana
MaiN nai jaandi Oo kithhay paya rayhnda aay namana
Kissay khhoji nouN bulaana
Zara khhoj tay kadaana
Kujh mainu samjhana
Ohda pataa ya tthekana
KeRa pind keRa shayhr
KeRa chakk keRa thhana
Rab wastay hazoor
Mainu dussna zaroor

Ohdi taknee naiN dil maira kadd layaa jay
Hunn dil uttay na koe maira zor rayhaa jay
Dil sunay na bahana
kewaiN ohouN aaray laana
Kissay khhoji nouN bulaana
Zara khhoj tay kadaana
Kujh mainu samjhana
Ohda pataa ya tthekana
KeRa pind keRa shayhr
KeRa chakk keRa thhana
Rab wastay hazoor
Mainu dussna zaroor

Chehray Mohray touN oo laga see shahzada gulfaam
Jiddi akhhaaN wichouN peetaaN jay maiN ishqay da jam
OhnouN samanay layaana
BhaNwaiN khabaaN ch bulana
Kissay khhoji nouN bulaana
Zara khhoj tay kadaana
Kujh mainu samjhana
Ohda pataa ya tthekana
KeRa pind keRa shayhr
KeRa chakk keRa thhana
Rab wastay hazoor
Mainu dussna zaroor

Ohday baray hunn kinnouN kinnouN kee kee dussaaN maiN
wichouN wichouN roowaN utouN jhuti jhuti hassaaN maiN
Laggay dukhh nouN ghataana
Maira hathh tay wandaana
Kissay khhoji nouN bulaana
Zara khhoj tay kadaana
Kujh mainu samjhana
Ohda pataa ya tthekana
KeRa pind keRa shayhr
KeRa chakk keRa thhana
Rab wastay hazoor
Mainu dussna zaroor

Shikra...tusi te vakiya hee barE shikra niklE ho, towadi music dee ajje tak meiN intezaar kar rahiaaN ... kee gal e ji...odoN pejnee e jad mere mooNh ch koi dand na rahE??

Safir, your last couple of posts were invaluable and your dedication is inspiring.

Safir,

From a linguist's perspective language is a conceptual tool, a code of visual-auditory symbols that denote concepts, and dialects are always mutations of the original language. But EVIL ethnocentric do not view at as a tool of thought and communication. They view it as a symbol of tribal status and power, the power to force their dialect on all outsiders while hoodwinking in the name of preserving literary work.

The fact that Sariaki, Pothohari, Hindko etc. assert their independent identity cannot be ignored. Punjab was an illegitimate land-grabbing operation by ..... Raja and the British. Once democracy takes root in Pakistan, hopefully, we will do away with this legacy of colonials and their loyals and demarcate it on just basis taking into account the wishes of Saraiki, Hindko, Pothohari speaking folks.

Regards

Could you please inform us the intellectual equivalent of mediocre "Jee AayaN nuN" with the same love, affection, respect and friendliness? Could you please translate into intellectual Urdu my creation of idiom, "tut paiNey baddla" - from a very poor and practically illiterate in Punjabi. Tut paiNey is used often by Punjabi women for children or friends to express little temporary anger without effecting the love and friendship portion of relationship which recurs in full once anger is subsided. Tut paiNey baddla, also literally means breaking away clouds due to hot temperature in upper atmosphere. Would intellectually it be ab'r-e-beparwa, abr-e-dil figar or something nobody will understand? Is Pakistani national anthem written in intellectual Urdu loaded with Persian or written in even more intellectual Persian with the sprinkle of Urdu?

Literature is proud showpiece of a language. Once one can not recognize its own showpiece, it is elitism and not intellectualism.

It may come to many as surprise that the most famous piece of literature by a Pakistani writer in 2001 was an English novel, "Mothsmoke" by an expatriate Lahori, Hamid Mohsin, that made headlines in the literary world. What and when was the last best/ intellectual piece of Urdu literature by a Pakistani writer?

I hope some people tuned into yesterdays show on Partition, today is part 2...nothing major just so as we do not forget the sacrfices made by Punjabis during for so called independence.

Most of the standard forms of languages have developed after the invention of printing press and formal school education under state patronization. In India, the indigenous languages developed into their standardized form under the British patronization. For Urdu, besides the patronization of the tail-end of Mughal nominal Kings in Delhi, Fort Williams College played the major role. It was at the Fort Williams College that folk lores from other languages, Dastan-e-Amir Hamza, etc., were first translated into Urdu and Urdu prose was born through British funding and under their supervision. Eventually, the adoption of different indigenous languages in the different provincial school systems provided the most vital step in formalizing many Indian languages, Hindi, Bengali, Urdu, Sindhi and many more. Unfortunately, after a fierce debate among British administrators of Punjab following the occupation of Punjab, Urdu was made the language of schools, over the strong objections of a few senior British officials. One of the obvious political reason was to forestall any future Sikhs/Punjabi uprising by depriving them a key rallying point to join hands with other factions of Punjab. There is no linguistic justification of why Punjabi was not adopted for Punjab’ schools as Sindhi and Bengali were at some point.

Without going into any further details on this point, I may just note what linguistics have concluded on the process of standardization of languages. The key ingredients are always a policy of language planning by the state or other agencies backed by funding to support a language or dialect over others, publish books including on grammar, dictionaries, etc., and most importantly adoption of that language in schools with standard text books.

Pakistan is not the only country that entered the modern era of nation states with various languages and dialects. Except a few colonial powers that had a head start, almost every country of the world has gone through the process of having to deal with the similar linguistic issues, ultimately preferring one or in some case more languages to adopt as state languages. In almost every country that came out of the colonial yoke, decisions have to be made in choosing a language for state patronization. In every case, once a language was adopted by the state and introduced in schools, it rapidly developed a standardized form. Why do some of us think that it will not happen to Punjabi? In our neighborhood, China faced even a bigger dilemma where Chinese language had a very large number of varieties and dialects. A few African and South American countries and some islands adopted the language of their formal colonial masters. Other than that, there is not a SINGLE example in the whole world where the language of a very tiny minority has been forced upon the whole country like in Pakistan. This has absolutely nothing to do with the superiority of Urdu over other Pakistani languages. There are other reasons. One must also remember that in 1947, Urdu was declared the national language of Pakistan - even for Bengalis. Bengali was given the status of second national language in 1956. Our attempt to replace Bengali with Urdu failed. Why do we believe that replacement of Punjabi with Urdu can last forever in Punjab? The joke of Urdu over Bengali lasted only 9 years. These smoke screens of Punjabi dialects, etc., can work for a while but not forever.

Languages need geography to survive. For one thousand years, Persian played the same role in the subcontinent, supported by exactly the same arguments of superiority, that are now used for Urdu in Punjab. (Even Allama Iqbal, a Punjabi, considered Persian to be a better language than Urdu for writing poetry and as recently as in the 1920's and 1930's he wrote most of his philosophical poetry in Persian. Almost everyone in Pakistan now needs a translator to understand what Allama' sahib was saying to his people). Where is Persian today? Languages without geography can survive only as long as they are ruled by a dominant central power. Once people get their voice in the matters of state policy, things can change overnight. Refusal to teach Punjabi language to Punjabi children in schools is not the only dumb and stupid idea that has prevailed for a while. Many other such ideas have seen the dust and this one will too.

One thing that we West Punjabis should always remember while discussing language issues is that we have all been trained in Urdu and have gotten used to it. We have many years of schooling that has made the Urdu language our preferred way of written expression. We can now enjoy Iqbal and Ghalib and other Urdu writings because we have spent many years in understanding the meanings of Persian and Arabic expressions (tarkeebain) that make this language so "elegant." Without this vigorous training of many years, it will be almost impossible for us to understand Urdu poetry and prose. On the other hand, we generally have no such training in Punjabi literature and have no clue about the elegance of written Punjabi language which being a "living" language is not burdened by unfamiliar Arabic and Persian expressions and has a vast treasure of expressions, idioms and vocabulary and is further enriched by its different dialects. To make things even worse, we associate Punjabi with the uneducated Punjabi farmers and other poor Punjabis and have no exposure to the ground reality of Urdu villagers of UP, Bihar, Hyderabad and other areas where uneducated Urdu speaking folks speak many different dialects of the colloquial Urdu and are as uneducated and rough in their speaking habits as uneducated Punjabis are. Most of the religious literature that we study is also in Urdu and we tend to associate Urdu with the religion. All Punjabi characters in Urdu novels and short stories speak Urdu. We have gotten so used to it that it never occurs to us for a moment how unnatural and artificial it is. All these things play a role in our biases against Punjabi and for that matter other Pakistani languages.

I will repeat again that for practical reasons, it is OK to teach Urdu and English as “languages” at some stage in school or college, but there is no reason why Punjabi should not be the medium of education in Punjab’s school just as Sindhi is in Sindh’s schools.

le oey yaar havaale RaB de, Melay chaar dinaaN de Jis din eed mubarak hosi, us din fer milaaN ge. You see here Mian Mohammad used Lahori Urdu-influenced Punjabi "ge" as well as lehndi or original or standard dialect of Punjabi "hosi". I can qoute here many verses of our verious poets. But if you study Mirza SahibaaN, you will find: YaaaraaN choraaN wich beth ke, na karye gal khari or as Mian MOhammad Bakhash said,:

aamaaN be-ikhlaasaaN under khaasaaN di gal karni

miThi kheer pakaa Mohammad, cha kutyaaN age dharni. Try to understand that we don't want to impose any central dialect on any one. In Pothowari dialect, there are only five words different than Majhi. People understand here very easily the dialect of Majha. But es gal nooN samjan lai, inner and mental purity di loR ey.

There is a zarb-ul-misal in Urdu: "Bandar kia jaane adrak ka maza". The trend of reading literature has been on a steady decline everywhere due to emergence of alternative mediums of entertainment. Urdu is and has always been the necessity for Punjabi intellectuals to express themselves without any constraint. Mediocre language such as Punjabi cannot be compared with enriched Urdu.

Sameer,

What makes you think that Sariaki, Pothohari, Hindko etc. will accept Majhi of “Takht Lahore” as their language? That's exactly what irks Punjabi elites. The state strategists (Punjabi elites) know that once Punjabi is vigorously pursued as a medium of instruction in schools it will result in the rise of the movement of cutting down Punjab to its right size sooner rather than latter the result of which would be the loss of privileges currently being enjoyed by Punjabi elites in a system of division of national resources based on proportional population.

Regards

PS: Here is common phrase "Kahan Ja Rahe Ho?", let's see the "communicability of it in Majhi, Hindko, Pothohari, and Saraiki:

Kiddar chalay jay? (Majhi)
Kathhay waina piaN? (Hindko)
KutthaN gushnRa waaN? (Pothohar)
Kiddan wainda aeeN? (Sariaki)

This is just one example!

Sameer,

What makes you think that Sariaki, Pothohari, Hindko etc. will accept Majhi of “Takht Lahore” as their language. That's exactly what irks Punjabi elites. The state strategists (Punjabi elites) know that once Punjabi is vigorously pursued as a medium of instruction in schools it will result in the rise of cutting down Punjab to its right size sooner rather than latter the result of which would be the loss of privileges currently being enjoyed by Punjabi elites in a system of division of national resources based on proportional population.

Regards

All languages of the world have accents. Punjabi is not alone to have several accents. The English accent and many words as well as spellings of Britain is different than northern USA, is different than southern USA, is different than South African is different than Australia. Having different accents is no problem for education in English nor will it have in Punjabi.

Interest in Urdu is declining not because of anything Punjabis are doing. It is declining because it is no longer useful in the job market. English in Pakistan is challenging it. The numbers of English medium schools have proliferated during the last 20 or so years. The importance of Urdu came with the two-nation-theory in Pakistan. Once Muslims of India were told to be one nation and succeeded in the creation of Pakistan, one language, one flag, one dress code, national flower, national sport, national anthem and all other things to go with one nation theory were considered important. Following the creation of Bangladesh – failure of two-nation theory, TNT is no longer considered a necessity to hold the union together. It is the interests of the people of Pakistan, which are important, in order to hold the union.

Other big challenge to Urdu is coming from the lack of interest in creating Urdu literature among Pakistanis. The current breed of poets is no comparison with the classical ones and those of Progressive Writers Union. Except for Anmed Faraz and Ahmed Nadeem Qasmi, rest of the crowd is made up of third rate poets. Nobody buys poetry books of Farhat Abbas Shah. He is known for just one good verse. In prose also few giants are left standing whereas in Punjabi, Bengali, Tamil, Kannada, Sindhi and other subcontinent languages, many giant poets and prose writers are still standing and new ones are coming up.

The spoken Urdu and Hindustani are alive and likely to be around for very long time. However, the Urdu literature is dying due to the elitism of Urdu writers. The trend of elitism or “mushkil pasand” writing started long ago and did not change too much even by Progressive Urdu writers. Only a small number of Urdu speaking people (including Punjabis) actually understand the highly Persianized and Arabized Urdu of literature. Not many people even today can understand Ghalib, Iqbal or Faiz fully. It takes extra effort to learn Persianized and Arabized idioms and phrases. The mutual exclusiveness and elitism of poets and Urdu writers in general are very much responsible for killing interest in Urdu literature. This is no intellectualism.

This excessive display of vocabulary loaded with Persian and Arabic words is very much an extension of the display of riches practiced by the rich people of Ganges plains (UP/ CP). The rich people have developed a taste of displaying their wealth in Public. The Nawabs and other rich people were into expensive and exclusive lifestyles identifying them clearly from the rest. They ate, dressed up, walked, partied, and entertained very differently than the average public leading to elite mannerism. The poets and writers copied that mannerism in their art. Urdu literature has never gotten out of this stupid elite mannerism – more difficult writing, more Arabic and Persian vocabulary use, more intellectual it is considered.

Punjabis and Punjabi language on the other hand followed the opposite path. Even the filthy rich Punjabis to this day do not display their riches the UP/ CP way. I have eaten meals many times at the homes of very rich Punjabis in small towns and villages. The roasted chickens, steaks and gold and silver foiled deserts are just not there. They dress up and walk more like average person and not like the Nawabs of UP/ CP used to. The lifestyle of Maharaja Ranjit Singh at the height of his power was no match with the outwardly rich lifestyle of Nawab of Oudh. Do not take me wrong. They are as corrupt as in any other ethnicity. They are more into accumulating than excessively displaying except on weddings and certain occasions. The lack of outwardly elitism among Punjabis is displayed in Punjabi literature also. The mushkil pasandi is not liked and generally not practiced. This is not a sign of mediocrity of the literature or illiteracy of the people including Sufis. The simplicity is intellectual in Punjabi literature and elitism/ mushkil pasandi is nonsense. Nobody in Punjab will appreciate poems that nobody or few can understand.

Dr. Zaki,

Thanks for you welcome! Communicability is relative and depends upon where you happen to be. All these languages belonging to the same family blend into each other at the outer periphery. Now, Punjabi is not really "alien" to Urdu either and that's what I meant. However, as far as the issue of identity on the basis of language is concerned Saraiki, Hindko, Potohari etc. do assert an independent one, if not forcefully at the moment.

I would agree with MTM that all these languages should be taught as that (languages) and not as a medium. The nation of Pakistan like every other needs a common language for its citizens to communicate and Urdu is well established in that role. There is no need to meddle with that as such. Besides, it only enriches the minds that set out to learn it beside their mother tongue.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Pakistan

http://www.saraiki.8m.com/saraiki.htm

Regards

The language used by Najm Syed in "Takht Lahore" is the original language of people of both 'Neeli Baar" (between Sutlaj and Ravi) and "SaaNdal Baar" (between Ravi and Chanab), and beyond SaaNdal Baar towards Sirgodha. However, Lahore and Sialkot and their peripheries are excluded. Similarly, Gujranwala city is excluded but not its periphery. Cities such as 'Chicha Watani' and 'Rasulpur' determine its southern boundary. It is called 'LehNdi', 'JaaNglo', 'Aa'waan-kaari' and 'pachaadi' in different areas. Saraiki is close to it in many ways, however, some vocabulary of Saraiki is different. Saraiki’s accent, however, is softer and polite. My comparison is based on my personal experience. I was born in a small city in Saandal Baar (approximately 50 miles away from Lahore towards Sirgodha) and have lived in Bahawalpur for about 3 years on regular basis (and had been visiting it many years afterwards). I did not find any difficulty in communicating with people over there, although the Punjabi accent we speak at home is of Central Punjab (Gujranwala, Sialkot and Lahore (however, not typical Lahori accent, although I am very good at that).
Moreover, almost all the classical literature (poetry in particular) has been written in this language. There has been a relative change in the percentage of population speaking and understanding this accent, particularly with the influx of people from “Maajhi” areas (now Indian Punjab)at the time of partition.

MTM,

The real motiviation behind elite's dividing people on the basis of this and that is always the bigger piece of pie. Right now "Punjabi" elites have the biggest piece of Pakistani pie and hence silence on "Punjabi" issue. Rest is just hogwash!

Regards

Following light worded poem is for the silient majority

Tutti yaari tay oo marr da aay gayRay
Buhaa patayaa sou pa pa hunn phhayray
Tay aggay naa bulaayaaN bolda

hunn souchayaa aay pyar di nai karnee ghulami
OhnouN dus ditta mukki hunn pyar di kahaani
Baitthaa hunjuaaN nouN tip tip dolda
Tay aggay naa bulaayaaN bolda

Dil thhak gaya sunn sunn oos day bahaanay
OhnouN dus ditta langay hunn qolaaN day zamanay
Baitthaa ketayaaN kararaaN nouN phharolda
Tay aggay naa bulaayaaN bolda

aisay ishqay touN souchayaa way jaan maiN chhuRaNwaaN
OhnouN dus ditta waylay kahnouN row row kay langaNwaaN
Baitthaa dil diyaaN galaaN payaa khholda
Tay aggay naa bulaayaaN bolda

MTM: I will have to take out sometime to jot down the exact verses with right words. My previous note had a few right verses with a blend of wrong words. Sorry for that.

Not merely men but women also not there
Sir, On “justice verdict” delivered a local traditional court of tribal elders a women was early July 2002 gang raped and later fully naked forced to go from “court” to her residence while hundreds of residents watched and no body raised any eye brow. The incident happened in the neighborhood village where lives our Punjabi Lion of Punjab Mustafa Khar married more than ten times. On the background of above ugly incident country's largest read by most serious readers columnist and citizen emirate noble Mr. Ardeshir Cowsajee narrating from history an incident of a 1000 years is surprised that today hundreds with their open eyes saw a women being gang raped and walking naked in street but no body protested or did anything in respect of women respect. In his column 07 July 2002 “Honour-gang rape” Mr. Cowasjee quotes from the history “As legend has it, once upon a time in the Year of Grace 1057 there lived an Earl of Chester, Lord of the City of Coventry. He decided to raise a new tax to finance his army (we, of course, in 2002 being no stranger to such action). Chester's young wife, moved by the poverty of people, implored him to spare them this heavy burden. Knowing his wife to be extremely prudish, the Earl set her a challenge to which he was convinced she would never respond. He vowed that he would lift the tax if she would ride naked through the streets of the city. The good lady Godiva accepted the challenge. Covered completely by her long, full tresses, she rode her street through the deserted streets of Coventry – deserted because the people in recognition of Lady Godvia's sacrifice remained cloistered in their houses with their doors and windows firmly shut. The shamed husband kept his promise and waived the tax. The Earl and his lady lived to a ripe old age in the midst of their grateful people”. A thousand years ago, man had respect for women. The Earl threw down his challenge supremely confident that his wife would not rise to it. Now in our country, good citizens of Pakistan presumably good Muslims, find ride and amusement in forcefully parading their women naked through jam packed street in Meerwalla near Muzaffargrah a town which bring to mind Lion of Punjab Mustafa Khar and dozen wives?” Mr. Cowasjee is quite logical in observing that today men are so lethargic in not knowing respect of women. But he forgot one thing. If men have lost the quality of respecting women, at the same time there exist today no women – women who not merely are given respect rather automatically respect is generated for them from inside of men's heart namely the “good” women when there husbands try to impose any “tax” on poor those women think and care of poor and argue with their tax imposing husbands. Today all of such women, women of tax imposing husbands due to their too busy luxury life even do not know if any tax had been levied reason being such taxes imposed by their husbands do not affect them, their husbands, children and home.

I would love to read your detailed article on the case of Punjabi language. Try to include the basic controversy in between Molvi and Sufi. Molvi believes in Malki (ownership, possession, or QABZA) whereas Sufis disown this QABZA-ism. That is also the case with the languages and their effects. Urdu language belongs to QABZA group or whereas Punjabi's inner face is absolutely in NON-QABZA that is one of the reason that this language is being discouraged. British Raj encourage each and every local language during their raj in Subcontinent except Punjabi. They imposed on us Urdu. they had a large army of Urdu speaking with them who helpled them capturing Punjab in 1849. So they (and their allies from UP, CP and other minority muslim pronces of India) tried to capture PUnjab not only physically but also spiritually. Just see the case of Molvi Moududi who came from strong Urdu speaking back-ground and he decided to stay in Lahore instead of Karachi. He chose the place "Punjab Univeristy" the brain of Punjab or Pakistan from where we get military and civil beaurocracy who lator on resisted any movement in favour of Punjabi or Punjab. Bhutto decided to replace Urdu with Punjabi in Punjab but this QABZA group could not accept it and punjabies stayed unfortunate as usual. Urdu also played one very poor role as a weapon in the hand of Westerns who spread the seeds of sectarianism in Punjab through these Urdu-walas who had deep roots in Pak army and masses. They became allies of western forces against the axpansion of communism. SO Rammah Jee and MTM jee, this case is not so simple rather very complecated and complex. I hope Safir jee will try to justify the case of Punjabi. Best of luck.

True, it has to be taught in schools but who will do it? We can expect this task from government? No. I think through NGOs. But it requires resources both mental, physical and financial. Above all, a determination as it is difficult but NO IMPOSSIBLE.

ZJ: i have not listen this NFAK's song. The words are really like jewels.....thanks for mentioning it. I will try to get the cassette.

The reason I am admant to bring the aforementioned number to attention is it's:
-beauty,
-depth,
-simplicity,
-pyara pun, and
last but not the least, the fact that there is something that binds you.
Personally, I will dullo-fy after reciting Deewanae'Ghalib's first ghazal due to its verbiage, but there is a lack of connection there. And I say that despite studying all the nuances from my very early teen years. And growing up reciting that like a holy prayer daily :)

Few days back, out of a blue when I discovered my cassette on "Ishq" by Nusrat Fateh Ali, I was deeply touched and simply in love with the choicest selection of his work. The number flows as following. I am using my memory to think of the flow. It's superbly sung and is worth saluting. Please see if you can find this on the web to have it in your poetry's khazana on this board. The more I listen to this mystic number, the more I have started to meditate. The beginning is very slow and traditional but the way it catches momentum is amazing. If you are into mysticism, this number can shake your inside out. Now, I would never play this particular holy number atae jatae. I will have to sit there and give the respect by listening to verse by verse and contemplating. Beautiful!!!
~Aae' Uth'raa Ishq Nae'n Sau'n Daen'daa
Sari Raa't Jagai Rakh Daa Aae'

Chun Vaa'da Kur'kae Naen Oa'ya
Sanoon Ta'rae Ginae Rakha Daa Ayae

Kithae' Paech Shehar Daa Shehzada
Kithae' Zeenat Bulkh Bukharae Dee
Kithae' Vali Takht Hazarae Daa
Kithae Muj'eeyaan Churaayee Rakh Da Ayae

Odae' Qatil Nae'n Nasheelae Naen
Odae Abroo Chai'l Chu'bee'lae Naen
Sanoon Lut'yaa Uss Shar'mee'lae Naen
......

Having said that, I am also of the opinion that forcing generations of Punjabis and, since the partition, West Punjabis, to learn only Urdu at the total exclusion of their mother tongue is wrong. I consider it the worst form of social engineering. It is hard to find any other example in the modern history where a population as large as West Punjabi’s that has been systematically educated to abandon their own language, culture and literature. Frankly, I wouldn’t care if the replacement language was Urdu, English, French, Arabic or any other language or whether the replacement language could be proven to be far superior than Punjabi. I would still argue that people should never be forced to abandon their own language for the sake of another, presumably superior language. I am pretty much sure that if the situation was reversed, and all Urdu speaking folks were forced to study only Punjabi and Urdu was not taught at schools, they would have every right to say that these Kafi’s, Var’s, Qissa’s, Bolian, Tappe, and Punjabi idioms and expressions, etc., do not represent their culture. They would complain about the bluntness, may be even coarseness, of what was being taught to their children. Similarly, Punjabis have every right to question why they are being forced to learn the mannerism and nuances of a language and culture that is not their own and comes from a very different environment.

In Pakistan, all media and a very large army of writers has been spreading the gospel of the excellence of Urdu as a language for the last 100+ years without any challenge. I have no desire to compare Urdu and Punjabi. I only question the suitability of replacing Urdu with Punjabi for those whose mother tongue is Punjabi. The purpose is not to prove which language is better in its own right, but to suggest which language is better for Punjabis.

As a practical matter, both English and Urdu should be taught as secondary languages at some level of school or college education in West Punjab to provide a working knowledge in these languages, but not at the expense of a thorough grounding in Punjabi starting from the primary classes. This business of refusing to teach Punjabi in Punjab’s schools is totally unacceptable. It is difficult for those who have developed a sensitivity on this issue to always remain logical and objective.

Come on, intellectually love is god.

Safir Rammah: Thanks for another very informative post. I hope you interact more often.

Ha Ha... what a joke! Mediocre expression of illiterate peasents and ... "sufis" being compared to intellectuals like Ghalib, Iqbal, and Sauda to name a few...

I agree with your observation that the “Progressive Movement” in its Leftist/Marxist form influenced Punjabi writing later than Urdu. At the same time, I am of the opinion that Punjabi was never in the backwaters of Gul-o-bulbul and ah-o-fighan that Mohammad Hussian Azad and Hali had to struggle so hard to pull Urdu out of. Their condemnation of traditional Urdu poetry and their efforts of trying to modernize Urdu are telling. They tried to bring Urdu poetry close to reality and nature and paved the way for progressive movement.

On the other hand, I would claim that Punjabi poetry was always progressive. All good Punjabi poetry from the beginning dealt with the social issues of the times, was always close to nature, society and reality. My thesis is that by adopting Urdu for Punjab’s schools, British government and later Pakistani ruling elite, deprived Punjabi literate classes of a vast indigenous intellectual and progressive heritage that was developed over the centuries by some great minds. If Punjabis were literate in their own very progressive literature, it could have gone a long way in developing a more enlightened Punjabi mind than we observe today. Unfortunately, Mir Taqi Mir and Dagh took the place of Shah Hussian and Bulleh Shah. At the time when Mir Taqi Mir was writing his poetry that has almost zero intellectual or social value for a Punjabi, his cotemporary Bulleh Shah was developing his practical solutions to deal with the dilemma of three competing religions in Punjab and the resulting external and internal fanaticism and intolerance. Bulleh Shah’s outstanding work never made it to the school curriculum and to the conscience of Punjabi intellectuals that were the product of new school system. I plan to expand on it in a more detail article shortly.

Although the Marxist/Leftist progressive movement impacted Punjabi writings later, one shouldn’t assume that prior to that the intellectual content of Punjabi literature was the same as Urdu, and Punjabi was rescued by the progressive movement the same way Urdu was. Punjabi already had a treasure of progress literature (not necessarily in the Marxist sense,). Progressive movement was a very big deal for Urdu, but not as much for Punjabi.

Lalach tamayaaN tay bud-souchaaN
JindRee nouN aa phhaRayaa
Zahirdari tay wal-chhal touN
Dil hay darrayaa darrayaa
Dil sunn yaar samundrouN dhungay
Ishq see tayh wich waRayaa
Hunn tay khushk samunder dil da
Ishq utaaN nouN chaRayaa
Chhap gayee ishq day dhair khalasay
Ishq nouN sub naiN paRayaa
Ishq dayaaN addpaRayaaN hathhouN
Ishq jay souli chaRayaa

The discussion about Heer and Ranjha last night was not about comparison on win-lose basis. It was more about the details of the story and that it really revolves around Heer and her family with Ranjha's family assigned to small side role and Ranjha never using his muscles - a universal motif for male heroes in mythology.

Your rebuttal to Mr. Rizvi is very objective. You rightly analyzed and concluded that he seemed to have not read any thing substantial about Punjabi poetry of the recent period. Although, it is a historical fact that Urdu literature has been influenced earlier than Punjabi literature by the modern literary movements of the West, but in the present context it is a non-issue. The Punjabi writers like writers of other languages were very enthusiastic members of ‘the Progressive Movements’. In this context, I would specifically like to refer apart from many others, the name of Ahmad Rahi. You have already mentioned the name of Balwant Gargi. In the field of Punjabi short story, Paul Joshua name is distinctive. In the present context, we can name many Punjabi writers who have made tremendous contributions (on both sides of the border) to Punjabi literature and have brought it at par with any other language. However, the eminent problem and issue of the Punjabi literature has been the indifferent attitude of the Public and Private sectors to promote both Punjabi language and literature (particularly, to make Punjabi language the medium of instruction in schools). All those people who say that Punjabi as a language cannot fulfill the demands of today, are simply not well versed about its historical role in forwarding the process of education and intellectualism. Before Urdu was forced upon on Punjabis in the 1880’s by the British Colonialists (for their own ulterior aims) all the subjects like logic, Ilm-i- Tafseer, Ilm-i- Taqrir, sah-vo-nahv etc. were taught in the ‘Islamic Madrassas’ in Punjabi. Subjects like math, commerce etc. in ‘Mahajani’ schools.

Sameer Ji! I think the legend of ‘laila-majnooN’ is Arabic and not Persian. Moreover, your statement that “The mysticism and mystic poetry does not go well with extrovert, exuberant and often exorbitant nature with strong love for land, family, friends, festivals and free spiritedness of Punjabis” is superficial and is devoid of reality. But you have opened the door for a good discussion on this issue. I hope, I can write some thing substantial on it very soon, although I am already up to my nose into the academic work.

Dulla Bhatti Ji! Heer te Ranjhe vichooN na koi jitya te na haarya. Jitan-haaran di gal te ‘Sharike-daari’ di gal e. Othe te Heer Heer na rehi, te Ranjha RaNjha na reha. Ik jiNd si te doja kalboot, te jiNd kalboot da akhir donaan da ik-mik hona e. Ohde vich sharike wali do’ee da keh kam. Eh Urdu wali “Aik jaan do Qaalib” wali gal tooN vi bohat agge di gal. Othe te apni apni zaat di nafi di haqiqat si. “Ranjha Ranjha kar di ni mein aape Ranjha hoi” (although the metaphor is used in a different context) te “Ranjha jogRa bun aaya, Kih saangi saangi rachaya” dovin ik amal wal ishaara karde neiN, jehRa meiN utte likhya e. ZaataaN (individual personalities) di ekta da amal (jeviN Heer te Ranjha da) insaani zaat di maa’raaj da amal e. Meri samajh parooN es hawaale raahooN kisse nein aakhiya hona e je “God is Love”.

All I hoped by bringing the issue of SahibaN was to see just one man to stand up and say, yes it is wrong. Nothing and nobody is perfect. Nothing insulting to anybody or our culture to accept what is wrong at such a minor issue. Even if I agree to your suggestion that SahibaN could have talked her brothers into sparing their lives, the Mirza's mistake of stopping and then going to sleep looms much larger on the final outcome.

re: ranjha ranjha kardi ni main aape ranjha hoi...It is a matter of how you look at it...Who is bigger here? one who have become Ranjha from Heer in the separation from her beloved or one who becomes yogi so that he can see Heer in person(kind of cheap thrill)? I think if we go by that verse Heer wins in my view. In our culture women suffered more..even in ishaq...and ishaq da dastoor ay, jehra haarda ay ohi jittda ay. SahibaN da case wakhra ay...men can curse her for saving her brothers by un-arming Mirza...but what would we do in such a situation? It was the toughest choice for her to make...she probably thought if she can save her brothers may she can persuade them to leave Mirza alive later on...but what did she knew about men? her brothers? animals when it comes to possesion of women.

Coming back to the topic of appreciation of beauty of male, female, flowers, nature, my impression is that the imaginary nature of beloved (women or men) in eastern poetry might be responsible for gender neutral description of lover-beloved. To the best of my knowledge, Ghalib, Iqbal or Faiz really did not have a particular woman target or model to direct their poetry. They were all sort of happily married people and yearning for beloved was just poetic or imaginary, similar to imagining god in mystic poetry. Similarly saqis and maikhanas really never existed in Punjab or in subcontinent and therefore they are also mere poetic traditions originating from Persian and Arabic red light districts. I do not know but I still have the feeling of far too many uses of "vey" (for male) than the "nee" (for female) in Punjabi poetry, like "vey vanjhli valaRia" and "nee nainaN valaRie". Anyway, I think it is an excellent discussion.

Jasvir: I did not understand the latest Javed Zaki poem either, not even the title. But it is no big deal. I think he uses much bigger vocabulary than spoken Punjabi besides using mostly south central Punjab accent than the more commonly used Majhi accent.

MTM, I think you will appreciate the verbiage as your choice of words is beautiful.

Safir Rammah, you should add that on the website as I have not come across that link anywhere. This particular number takes you through all the chapters of history and covers all the punnae'.

Saeed Farani: Please check your email for India, Pakistan and GE. An excellent narrative!

AAdarsh

Mun mansoor Thha'e mera loko
AkhkhiN rangle sufne
BukkaaN bhar bhar taa soraj da
Malna apne jusse
Kitte ratt sarir na busse

ChaaNvaaN da mul bharsaaN bhaaNviN
Tup vaile da loohe
Ander vassooN sehra thive
Zehr kuRhe bhaaNviN roohe
JiNd kalboot da saaNga tutte
Sulgan baariaaN bohhe
Nit dhooR udde tunn joohe

ChaaNvaaN da mul bharsaaN bhaaNviN
Tup vaile da loohe
Ander vassooN sehra thive
Zehr kuRhe bhaaNviN roohe
JiNd kalboot da saaNga tutte
Sulgan baariaaN bohhe
Nit dhooR udde tunn joohe

Believe me, I do not look at women beauty from tamashbeene point of view. I Believe that nature has made female beauty so attractive to males through millions of years of evolution in order to promote the survival of human species. Had I known the origin of discreet description, from tamashbeene point of view, in Persian and Arabic literature, I would have been more careful in letting my wishes known. Anyway, thanks a lot for prompt reply in detail.

You have raised some real good points. Let me first try to address the main thrust of Razvi’s thesis: He wrote:

It was not Batalvi's fault, after all, that he was stuck with a language whose idiom has really not grown much beyond where the masters left it. Urdu, on the contrary, thanks to the Progressive Writers' Movement, managed to shed its rustic classical skin to some extent, and Majaz was able to express the same thought as that expressed by Batalvi in Tussi kehRi rute aaye, without having to switch the gender, by composing Ab mere paas tum aai ho to kya aai ho.

1) Even a very superficial comparison of just Shiv’s poetry with classical Punjabi poetry will reveal that he was not handicapped by any limitations or ‘under-development of the language. His poetry is a tour de force of the richness of Punjabi in its most vibrant and living formulation. The metaphors, expressions and idioms he used are limitless in their ability to covey all shades of meanings and feelings. There are no pie in the sky kind of artificial formulations that are the hallmark of Urdu poetry. The same is true for almost all good modern Punjabi poets. Razvi has obviously not read Pash, Najm Hussain Syed, Surjeet Pattar and a host of other progressive Punjabi poets. Only someone who has no knowledge about Punjabi poetry can make this claim that Punjabi has not ‘shed its rustic classical skin’.

2) Claiming that Majaz was able to express the same thoughts without switching his gender is ludicrous. There was simply never any tradition of changing gender in Urdu poetry so it was not Majaz’s decision to begin with. He didn’t have any choice but to never change his gender in writing poetry.

3) Razvi has implied that since Punjabi has this poetic tradition of changing gender and Shiv had written some of his poems in that tradition, it somehow makes Punjabi an inferior language as compared to Urdu. Plus it proves that Punjabi language is still stuck with its classical idioms and has not been modernized. There are many ways to address this ridiculous and nonsensical claim but let me try it this way.

More than half of Faiz’s idioms and expressions if judged from Razvi’s perspective are even more rustic than Shiv. His poetry is drenched with classical expressions. He has followed the classical Urdu poetry tradition of using the metaphors of ‘saqi’ ‘piyala’ ‘qatil’ and hundreds of others. Just because he decided to write poetry by following some of the poetic traditions of classical Urdu, as compared to Majeed Amjad who almost never used such expressions at least in his poems, does it mean that Faiz’s language was rustic? The parallel in Punjabi can be between Shiv and Pash or Najm who never wrote a Kafi or geet and never changed gender. Shiv, on the other hand followed some of the classical poetic traditions of Punjabi. Of course, like Faiz he used them in a modern context. What has that to do with Punjabi being more rustic than Urdu?

A lot more can be written on this but I think it is suffice to say that it will be a folly to compare two languages by comparing the differences between their poetic traditions. Urdu and Punjabi are two totally different languages representing two different cultures.

On another point raised by Sameer Ji: The tradition of infinite and unreal descriptions of female beauty is unique to Urdu and Persian Ghazal, and classical Arabic poetry from where it originates. Absence of this level of freak obsession with the minute details of female beauty in other languages shouldn’t be viewed as a shortcoming. It only shows that Punjabi poetry didn’t grow up in a tamashbeenee culture where women were only a commodity in the form of concubines and dancers for the fun of nawabs. It is just a matter of cultural difference. Otherwise Punjabi poetry has its fair share of descriptions of female beauty in its Qissa’s and bolian, and also in its modern ghazal. I find Waris Shah’s description of Heer’s beauty far superior than anything ever written in Urdu poetry.

Alam Lohar has done more justice to this story than many other singers. He clearly sang, "main haRRa pani aaN rab daa mainu Danabad puhNchaa" and "tainu aa gayaN neendraN wey mainu khatrey hor wey". Blame squarely goes to Mirza and not SahibaN.

In most of NFAK songs also, it appears that he is singing on behalf of female(s). Mera Piya Ghar Aaya in Punjabi is sung by NFAK but its Urdu version is sung by some female singer. Similarly many other Punjabi romantic songs sung by male singers, hardly make the impression of singing for female beloved, sometime quite the opposite. I believe that Punjabi women are equally worthy of love and praise that must be clearly expressed in their gender tone.

In Heer Ranjha, Mirza SahibaN, Sassi Punnu and Sohni Mahiwal, ladies took lot more risks of leaving home, swimming through river and sacrificing everything for the sake of love. There is no reason to treat them as fuzzy gender or masculine gender. They were decisive, courageous and must be clearly treated as women. The fact is that it was Ranjha who became sort of Heer due to deep love and weak position due to becoming employee of Heer's family. It was Heer, who remained true to her gender throughout.

Why is there machismo hesitation to clearly pointing to female beloved? Sometime it almost feels like that poet is intentionally turning his face away from face-to-face with a lady beloved. Except for stupid white complexion, hardly any mention of female beauty is made in romantic songs or poetry. The mention of eyes, nose, lips, ears, hair are lot less in Punjabi poetry than contemporary Urdu poetry. Am I right, DB, or it is just my ignorance of extensive Punjabi poetic literature?

Except for the incorrect translation of Shikra poem, I will agree with most of what Murtaza Rizvi has said in his response. The place of sufi poetry as Punjabi classics is not overriding all what came after and neither is the yardstick to measure other's poetry. The nature of Punjabis is anything but mystic. The mysticism and mystic poetry does not go well with extrovert, exuberant and often exorbitant nature with strong love for land, family, friends, festivals and free spiritedness of Punjabis.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books5.htm

Shiv Kumar Batalvi: poet of melody

Modern Punjabi literature cannot be viewed in any meaningful way without including Shiv Kumar Batalvi's exquisite and immensely significant body of work. Safir Rammah's observations on Batalvi's poetry are perceptive, thoughtful, and even thought provoking. Unfortunately, the embarrassingly unpoetic, incorrect, and at times absurd translation, was a grave disservice to the poetry of Batalvi as well as to the points made by Mr Rammah. No one reading this translation is going to think "Wow! what a wonderful poet this is!". And that should be the goal.

One hopes that you will continue to educate your readers about Punjabi writers - but with justice to their work.

SUMAN KASHYAP
California, USA

With reference to my article on Shiv Kumar Batalvi (July 28), I greatly appreciate that you took the time to provide an excellent translation of Shiv's verses that were quoted in the article. Allow me to bring to your attention a discrepancy in the translation of Shiv's famous poem "Shikra".

In classical Punjabi literature, there is a well-established poetic tradition that sometimes the poet assumes a feminine identity while addressing his beloved. It is commonly used in sufi poetry to emphasize the poet's complete submission and devotion to God. Both in sufi poetry, as well as, in the lok and popular songs, it opens up an extra dimension and rather charming possibilities for the poet to express his feelings.

For example, while using the symbols of Heer and Ranjha, it is common for Punjabi poets to write poetry in the role of Heer.

Ranjha Ranjha kerdee nee main/Ape Ranjha hoee

Repeating the name of Ranjha/I have become Ranjha myself (Bulleh Shah)

The refrain - Mai Nee Mai - is almost always an indication that the poet is writing in his feminine role.

Shiv, like many other modern Punjabi poets, has selectively employed metaphors and poetic traditions of Punjabi classical poetry. A number of his poems are in the form of a geet or a song. In his poem "Shikra", the shikra (falcon) is a male and the poet or narrator of this poem a female. Shiv has used masculine pronouns and verbs in all references to shikra. The repeated refrains "Mai Nee Mai" and "Nee main waree javan" clearly establish that Shiv is writing this poem by adopting a feminine identity.

The otherwise brilliant translation was marred by assuming shikra as a female (she-hawk) and caused a misinterpretation of the whole poem. I hope this clarification will provide a better understanding of Shiv's poem for your readers.

SAFIR RAMMAH
Fairfax, Virginia, USA

The translator replies:

The objections to "Shikra's" translation appearing in Mr Rammah's article on the poet Shiv Kumar Batalvi as a 'she-hawk' instead of his preferred 'falcon' seem banal at best. We are not told what would a she-falcon or a she-hawk be called in Punjabi, because as far as one knows the language, there is no such word as shikri.

Banalities aside, the point that like many sufi poets Batalvi sometimes also assumed the female gender is rather obvious and must be taken for granted for anyone acquainted with Punjabi literature. The obvious example of this is Batalvi's poem that runs thus:

Tussi kehRi rute aaye mere Ram ji'O

(Look, when you have come to me)

Now there are two ways of translating this poem in which a woman laments about the lover coming to get her 'too late'; too late meaning now it just cannot be anymore. The traditional way to interpret it would be the easier way out in which the girl's lament becomes her last cry. But Batalvi was the farthest thing from such mundane thoughts, let alone make them subject for his poetry.

His was a very contemporary idiom and sensibility, which sought something that would perhaps always elude human grasp; hence the tragedy. He was an existentialist and believed only in one thing with conviction: worthlessness of life, unless proved otherwise.

It would be unfair to read the sufi in his thoughts, for, like Manto, Batalvi had rather be called a rascal than a mystic. His bosom buddy, Balwant Gargi, would vouch for it any time. He lived life to its full, deceived and used girls (and perhaps boys) and got used by them, and, in the process, composed some of the best contemporary poetry in Punjabi. Punjabi has more than enough unsung heroes than it deserves, and if the living gurus of the language and its largely rustic literature cannot create a more contemporary idiom today the least they can do is not to masquerade some exceptional contemporary works as neo-classics. Batalvi would have hated this.

It was not Batalvi's fault, after all, that he was stuck with a language whose idiom has really not grown much beyond where the masters left it. Urdu, on the contrary, thanks to the Progressive Writers' Movement, managed to shed its rustic classical skin to some extent, and Majaz was able to express the same thought as that expressed by Batalvi in Tussi kehRi rute aaye, without having to switch the gender, by composing Ab mere paas tum aai ho to kya aai ho.

We need more people like Batalvi to take the language farther from where he left it. And those who still live in the trance of a classical idiom and sensibility are the least equipped to do so.

MURTAZA RAZVI
Karachi

Aj dey din vee meeNh na vasya
ik din hor kisan na hasya
ik din hor na peengaN payyaN
ik din hor na ral mil sayyaN
gooRhiaN gallan dil wich rahyyaN
HeeraN bethiaN sochi payyaN
tut painey baddla, aj taaN phera pa
vekh tuN dil wich sade, kinni teri chah
kee hoya kyun tainuN sadi bhulli rah
aa ja sohNe baddla, na sanuN taRpa
eh shamm hey sham udas udas
dharti nuN laggi pyas pyas
Udde sub dey hawas hawas
ik bujhdi hoi aas aas
bapu dee nazar asmaan wal
maaN da dhyan gyan wal
puttr dee soch khalyan wal
dhee vekhey apney khandaan wal

agley din fer meeNh jo vasya
dharti da fer sinna masya
thund kalejey Heer dey payee
aale dwale Ranjhey dey hoyee
titraN moraN dey gaawaN goonjey
kisan naiN apney athroo poonjhey
eh gallaN sohne Punjab diyaN balliye
mittraN nuN Punjabi wich likh kay dassiye

http://www.osa.co.uk/cgi/artistpage.cgi?artistID=1117&basket=

a) How did he die? natural death?
Personally, I think poets are very dangerous. Dangerous,in a different way. They keep on absorbing what they see in their surroundings and probably start knowing/learning too much before the time. Their awareness and certain degree of aloofness can be killing. I liked the picture that you drew on the "blooming part of life." Again, people are people; all different. All aspiring for something completely different. Just recently, I was getting some shiksha from my dear uncle when he said that life is tougher for people who set goals and aspirations and who go out and seek. It's not that difficult for those who stick to the regular flow with all the transitions. It's all a personal choice. :)

Kakkar paynda
Pattar tayhnda
Phair mitti wich mitti
Katt katt moyaa
kaliaN raataaN
Paown pushak pay chitti
Jind sapnee
Wiss jeebay upRee
Boli phair we mitthi
Kee aakhhaaN
KewaiN mundRa bola
MaiN na jaach ay sikhhi

(Empty-nest-ness)
(SuNj-Aahlni)

Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee
Tehni tehni, shool hoee

Aa meiN tenooN chooriaaN paNvaaN
Aa meiN moti chog chogaN'vaaN
Dil de aahlne vas da reh tooN
Dil vi jhok koee
. . . . Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee

Aa tenooN raNgli jhanjhar panvaaN
Aa teri sone chuNj maRha'vaaN
Tere paraaN nooN meiN sat raNgaaN
Tere jiaa na koee
. . . . Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee

Dil de baagh baghiche vasdeiN
AaNda jaaNda khiR khiR hasdeiN
Eh tooN jaane akhiaaN chaanan
Tere binaaN na dhoee
. . . . Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee
. . . . Tehni tehni shool hoee

Our only child left home to assume job responsibilities in a far off city on the East coast.

(Empty-nest-ness)
(SuNj-Aahlni)

Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee
Tehni tehni, shool hoee

Aa meiN tenooN chooriaaN paNvaaN
Aa meiN moti chog chogaN'vaaN
Dil de aahlne vas da reh tooN
Dil vi jhok koee . . . . Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee

Aa tenooN raNgli jhanjhar panvaaN
Aa teri sone chuNj maRha'vaaN
Tere paraaN nooN meiN sat raNgaaN
Tere jiaa na koee
. . . . Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee

Dil de baagh baghiche vasneiN
AaNda jaaNda khiR khiR hasneiN
Eh tooN jaane akhiaaN chaanan
Tere binaaN na dhoee
. . . . Udd giya panchhi, shaam roee
. . . . Tehni tehni shool hoee

For me personally, listening to Punjabi songs is not limited to radio stations, and certainly not on AM frequencies. AM stations are really meant for talk shows, news and preaching. A digital FM station, syndicated in different markets through satellite transmission and/ or internet is the future of radio listening.

We, Punjabi's know that at the hands of 'begaanE' we have often been betrayed but to see Punjabi's raping their own language and culture for their own twisted ideologies and gains its beyond me to sit by complacently with my eyes shut.

Dullabhatti ji, I recall a while back you talked about a radio broadcasting plan that was very interesting. I am currently discussing the viability of a digital Punjabi radio station in North America, any feedback from you is welcome.

To all of you who came up with names, meharbani, and I am indeed going to keep searching for a name because next time (so optimistic aren't I?) it will be ready. :-))

Hawae
Mann sadi ek gall
Saday sunehaaN day nall
Sohnay sajnaa day wall
Ajj watnaaN nouN chall
DusseeN Ja kay saday din kewaiN lang day
Nee assee aapay kehndiaN pay sang day

DusseeN such such dil di kahaaniaN
DusseeN langdiaN aiNwaiN pay javaniaN
DusseeN yadaaN jadouN aowNdiaN suhaniaN
DusseeN dubdiaN akhhaaN wich paaniaN

DusseeN sahnouN pay wachhoRay kewaiN dang day
Nee assee aapay kehndiaN pay sang day

DusseeN sadaa aithhay kinna bura haal aay
DusseeN Din we tay lagay aithhay saal aay
DusseeN jindRee ch khushiaN da kaal aay
DusseeN yadaaN da sahara ee tay naal aay

DusseeN dukhh sahnouN sooliaN tay tang day
Nee assee aapay kehndiaN pay sang day

DusseeN akhhiaN ch taknay di pyas aay
DusseeN milnay di sahnouN baRee aas aay
DusseeN souchaaN keta jindRee da naas aay
DusseeN dil we aay kalla tay udas aay

AakhheeN milni tay rabb kolooN mang day
Nee assee aapay kehndiaN pay sang day

A couple definitions of poetry.

1. It is emotion recollected in tranquility. Yaani ke, if you write in the throes of toofaani emotions you will not have control over your words and thoughts (you will probably have lost them!). Another example is if you weep while singing a sad song your audience will either laugh or be quite sorry for you. Secondly, when you recollect in tranquility, you gain perspective and the ability to analyze and understand the meaning of the experience. So you have brought intelligence, order, knowledge and a whole lot more into the poem. Gives it more weight.

2. All great art expresses some universal truth. And unless it contains that core it will not survive beyond the moment. A universal truth is not a fact of course, but maybe the best one can say is that it is a deep understanding, an insight.

I think emotions cannot be recreated so it should not be a question of getting on the same wavelength as the poet. My view is that a poet is compelled to write from within. But once a poem is out there it is interpreted and judged by the reader as an independent piece of work. Agar daad miley then the poet will be very happy but I see no actual connection between a poet and a reader.

ZJ: I respect your views, I donot consider them as criticism and I thank you for all what you have said.

1. History is just a record, a flawed one at that, of the past. Any one who wants to, can access that record and both acquire and carry its burden. The spread of religion, among other things, attests to the mobilty of old and foreign ideas.

2. You say that 'things are far from perfect back in Punjab'. Which Punjab are you speaking about? Pakistan, India or Southhall(all have different problems)? 1939, 1952 or 2002 (which one is the genuine article)? Hindu, Sikh or Muslim (often quite apart ideologicaly )? Every single parameter to define Punjab has changed.

3. English has spread, flourished, flowered and changed in so many vastly different countries. Its vigor and life no longer come from England. Why do you think this is so? And why do you think that Punjabi cannot do so?

Solzenitsen (lost the spelling) may have gone back, but did his children do so as well? Did they choose a different history?

My view is that whenever the diaspora walas try to 'fix' problems in the 'motherland' that they chose to leave ( chose being the operative word, exiles are a different matter) they create more problems and greater disturbances.

Zahra. You have asked some very interesting questions about what poetry is or should be. Must think about it!

Mohtaram Jagjit Sadhu Jee: Thank you so much for clarifying the myth :)
Is depth related to pain? anguish?

The uplifting spirit has to come from within. You can read many with hulla gulla and goody good stuff. I am not referring to that.

I was trying to point out the remorse I felt and read in the words of many. With that remorse, I discovered down to earth mindset, but with that remorse I also felt as if someone did not get the time to look into certain things that he/she wished to. And this person at certain age or time in life, looks back and starts his/her reflections in the poetical format.

Suman: It is a matter of pre-conditions or starting point to make an opinion about state of mind regarding Punjab/ Punjabi language/ Punjabi history. Just like life is dukha, my starting point that goes into my mindset is that things are far from perfect back in Punjab. That forbids me to detach myself from events and trends over there. The Punjabi culture has to think the ways Jews were thinking for 2000 years in Europe. Their cry was always, "next year in Jerusalem". Punjabi language and culture detached from Punjab will not survive beyond few generations, except for Sikhs because of the language of their religion. The emotional part to a cultural state of mind is difficult to maintain without attachment to geography. Russian Nobel Laureate Solzhenitsyn against communism and lived in Vermont in exile. Yet he always said that he has only one motherland and it is Russia. As soon as communism fell, he packed his bags and went back to Russia. I am not suggesting that Diaspora Punjabis should think about going back but many might have to, if economic conditions worsen in Canada and USA or their is strong right wing upsurge in politics. Right now more Taiwanese are moving back than coming to USA because of better economic conditions. Same thing might happen in our part of the world in the next 20-30 years.

The opportunity to look in from outside is tremendously useful tool for accurately assessing the situation. This golden opportunity must be utilized to point out problems and suggesting solutions.

MTM ji. How do you do this? mintaan vich eni soni poem.

Suman ji, first of all sorry for misquoting you. I was too lazy and did not scroll down to your post to verify the exact. Secondly I agree with what you have said...when I said tutt-bhajj...it is happening...in some cases it is mere change and change offers new opportunities by itself...majority of the poetry is kind of diasporic in nature now..no one is at a place where he/she was,or he/she thinks is his place. It is nostalgic and remorseful..with tutt-bhajj inside...at the same time this physical detachment(for immigrants) and time detachment(for people living in Punjab..from Punjab of old time) creates new opportunities...but only if opportunities are reaped...and some kind of continuity from old to new is established..otherwise few generations from now will remember Punjabiness as much as we remember our Budhist past now.

Tainu sufnay ch takaya ne maae
Tainu takk dil nachaya ne maae
Tairee pichhay pichhay bhajaya ne maae
Tthayda khhada tay maiN digaya ne maae
Mainu digay nouN touN chukaya ne maae
Gal layaa mathhaa chummaya ne maae
MaithhouN haal maira puchhaya ne maae
Tairay bahjouN jo we khhatiaN ne maae
Pal pal jeRaa kattaya ne maae
Tainu dukhh saara dasaya ne maae

Sunn haaRayaaN nouN mairay
Boli dukhh kahnouN sayhRay
Langay wailayaaN nouN rouna
Hanjou haraaN ch parouna
NaiyouN JindRee day karay
Ainj honday nai guzaray
Jind muR naiNyouN aowna
Waila langdayaaN jaowna
Sadaa kissay naiNyouN rayhna
MaiN tay aay he tainu kayhna
Jo we labhay din chaar
OhnouN Hass kay guzaar
Langay wailayaaN de yaad
Row row keeti barbaad
Sohnay samay diyaaN galaaN
JevaiN ravi diyaaN chhalaaN
Saday katth diyaaN yadaaN
JevaiN mungiaN muradaaN
JadouN aawaaN tainu yaad
Dil kar layeeN tou shaad
Dil bol payaa mairaa
LaweeN sufnay ch phhaira
Muki raat see hanairee
Akhh khhul gae mairee

First of all, speaking geographically, the Punjab that so many people have lost is a Punjab of the past. It no longer exists. Secondly, this memory of a 'lost Punjab' is colored by poetry, literature and music and bathed in the rosy glow of childhood and javaani or interpreted stories. I have a high regard for people living in the different geographic Punjabs who contribute to and work towards building something for the culture. But we are, for the most part, Punjabis living in a western environment, and I believe that we have a changed sensibilty and responsibility.

I can only speak for myself (maybe a few others), but if I had not come to this country I do not think that I would have begun this process of 'exploring my roots'. When a culture is all around you, you take it for granted. You develop curiosity about it only when you fear that you might lose it or are about to. We need to remember this and be grateful. Furthermore, diaspora Punjabis have done some pretty amazing stuff - just one example, the growth and spread of punj music music worldwide was from England, not punjab. One of these days we will read good punj literature emerge from the west. For that matter apna began here! Please, I am not suggesting any qualitative difference between diaspora and original. One is a part of the other. 'Diaspora punjab vich, punjab diaspora vich' (yaaaay! did it again!) But what I am saying is that just because something is past does not mean that it is 'breakup and loss'. You can see it as growth, as challenge. But, for sure, that means change.

Dear Zee Jay Jee, You do have some point regarding Punjabi poetry. There is lot of remorse, despair, feeling of something breaking apart..not only among diaspora poets but also the ones living in Punjab. May be it is sense of loss of something..loss of losing Punjab that we have in our dreams and hopes..the language, composite culture that we were so close to define our identity with above and apart from religions and castes...but now is tormented into pieces. Suman ji said Punjabiness is state of mind and it does not have to have a particularl place or country. I think to have a state of mind but not to have a comfortable space for it is like a daali of a beautiful rose hanging in air which will die sooner or later. The continuous breakup and loss of that base of Punjabi culture upon which our state of mind is based...makes me somewhat sad and remorseful. Despite all that...Punjabi poetry si not void of uplifting spirits or cheering one up...that also goes side by side. Listen to Anwar Masood at the top of this page.

Ma’fi mangnaeeN moula touN par aap kissay nouN chhad-da naiN
Dil wich bharayaaee zahr jeRa kyouN onouN androuN kad-da naiN

Jeenaa chaar dehaaRay aaithay kaahdi nafrat kaahda vair
Boota pyar mohaabat wala dil wich kahnouN gad-da naiN

Aappoo apnee kattan lyee tay aappoo apnee paindi aay
Bin gharzooN ais duniyaa ander koe kissay nouN wad-da naiN

Moula appnay matlab lyee paye jhhuk jhhuk mathay tahnay aaN
Bin matlab ais dunniyaa wich aay khaaki taleeyaaN tad-da naiN

WaikheeN teree rahmat di mohtajee aay mohtajaaN nouN
Darda roz-e-mahshar touN paya aiNwaiN bagaa aad-da aaiN

SameerAll that stuff about saraiki, bahawali, haryanvi etc, etc. We should'nt even need to talk about such differences. At least to me it seems quite irrelevant. Whoever wants to call themselves Punjabi can do so, no problem. The rest is political games and why buy into that?

Safir Jee: Apna Discussion Forum input page needs typo error correction ... from Punbabi to Punjabi ......thanks

DB Jee: Eastern side of Punjab day tin hisayaaN baray tussi we zara roshni paoo.

There is no demarcation of Saraiki belt. Some Saraikistan followers want it as north as Sahiwal. Some consider Sultan Bahu as a Saraiki Sufi Poet and some even think of Baba Farid as Saraiki too. Like Punjabi, Saraiki also has several accents, some of them quite difficult to understand by average Punjabi from Lahore.

I am opponent of Punjab divison and my opinion is just my opinion. Ist point is that before British, south Punjab was thinly populated as compared to central Punjab. After irrigation system by British, large number of Punjabi abadkars settled all through south Punjab or Saraiki bely. A rough estmate purs the number of abadkars about 70 percent of the total population. Neeli Bar area is predominently abadkars, speaking East Punjabi accents. Bahawalnagar is 90+ percent, Bahawalput and Rahimyar Khan about 70 percent abadkars. During the last elections, out of 122 provincial assemblt=y seats from Saraiki Belt (as proposed by the supporters of Saraiki suba), only 30 could speak Saraiki and most of them considered Saraiki a Punjabi accent.

If Saraiki province ever materializes, its government would be speaking east Punjabi accents; it will be another Punjab. Cities like Chishtian, Borewala, Kot Addu, Khanewal, Rajanpur, Vehari and most other cities in this area are predominently Punjabi speaking abadkars. Saraiki speakers really dominate in Dera Ghazi Khan, Multan and Miianwal district in addition to Dera ismail Khan in NWFP. However, Mianwali accent is very easily understandable by Punjabis and Saraiki movement really does not enjoy much popularity there.

There might be an element of resentment in Saraiki movement against the domination of abadkar but it is not aganst Punjab or Punjabi language. Moreover, the principle backers of the movement, the former Nawab of Bahawalpur clan themselves are not that much local. They came to that area from Sindh and were given estate by then Multan's ruler. The influence of Nwab of Bahawalpur clan has been dowmward and backing or initiating such movement is a mean to reclaim some of the lost influence.

Saraiki province can only be created under military dictatorships and no democratic government of Pakistan can seriously think of dividing Punjab. The other suba mahaz, Potowari Suba is basically the brainchild of some retired military officers from that area, otherwise it does not have any support. They only make noise when their buddies are ruling, like right now.

Real danger is military establishment backing of these groups to offset any strong political leadership in Punjab and Pakistan. Such groups become quite strong on the back of military establishment as we have witnesses in the cases of MQM and Islamic Fundamentalists parties and various Jehadi organizations. Without their backing, such groups are marginal in politics.

Most non-Punjabis have a different twist. They claim that Punjabis always supported the invaders and later British Raj. Punjabi luke warm support for 1857 mutiny is often cited as example and the later development in canal system and hiring Punjabi soldiers is presented as a proof of Punjabis closeness to British. They fail to recognize that just 8 years before 1857, in 1849 non-Punjabi force came to crush Sher Singh and other Punjabi rebels and also oversaw the surrender of Dilip Singh. How could Punjabis be pleased with all this or forget within 8 years? Punjab was almost last to fall to British and first to rise against British in Ghadar movement. The effect of Ghadar movement was so strong that neither Nehru-Gandhi nor Jinnah really enjoyed mass support in Punjab. Again, Punjabis are discredited by suggesting that Unionists were bunch of stupid feudal lords, loyal to Raj, and Punjabis were stupid to vote for them. Why should Punjabis have voted for Congress or Muslim League? They have proven beyond any doubt, the mutual co-existence and respect for all three religions through Ghadar movement just 20 years ago. They laughed for a while at the suggestion of dividing Punjab on the basis of religion. Finally they had no choice but to opt.

Baba Rajab Ali's poetry clearly depicts the resentment of Punjabis with non-Punjabis over variety of issues. He lived through Ghadar movement. A martian would have called Gandhi a sissy and Jinnah and Nehru as British agents, had he witnessed the manuevering through drawing rooms and various shaped tables, and fearing for upsetting British masters during Ghadar movement earlier. Of course, after Ghadar movements failure, rest of the crowd became "phreedom phyters", particularly after knwoing that British have already decided to leave. Ghadar movement is the most honorable and proud part of the history of Punjab during twentieth century.

Did you know today was Shaheed Udham Singh's anniversary? I think discussing Ghadar movement in relation to Independent movement by Congress and Muslim League is a great topic. Because of the Vongress Muslim Laegue domination in pre-Independence and post-Independence, Ghadar movement gets much less attention. But it is part of the proud history of Punjab. They talked about kicking out Raj when others were practically begging to get dominion status. Please read more about it. Bhagat Singh and Udham Singh are true heroes of Punjab and we must honor them above second and third rate drawing room heroes.

MTM: TaranjanaN is like KeeRi, difficult to pronounce correctly. I think it is going to be ICHABAL with an additional word or "i" at the end occasionally, something like, Desi Ichabal, Ichabal Sangeet, Ichabali dee etc. All this is really not a serious matter to me because I have already told her that the new show due to am frequency and less talk is really no match for 96.1 fm quality. If you really like to enjoy her show, listen to 96.1 fm one. I would have really liked to see an increase in the duration as well as 4-7 pm Vancouver time of 96.1 fm show instead of radiopunjab one.

Tay phair mairee akhh na laggi

Tairey tuknee naiN dil pichhay laayaa
SouchaaN souchiaN tay sufna wee aayaa
AynaaN sufniaN baRa ee sataayaa
Adhi adhi raateeN aan kay jagaayaa
Tay phair mairee akhh na laggi

Yaad mainu taireyaN sharataaN pay aowndiaN
Langay hoay wailayaN nouN paiaN partowndiaN
Khhich khhich tainu mairay samnay laowndiaN
Nimay nimay haasay nalay akhhaaN sharmowndiaN

Tairay haasiaN naiN mainu we hasaayaa
Adhi adhi raateeN aan kay jagaayaa
Tay phair mairee akhh na laggi

KewaiN maiN sunawaaN tainu dil wali gal ni
Labh da na waila koe labh da na pal ni
Sida sada bunda waaN maiN aownda naiyouN chhal ni
Gal wichouN gal kadaaN aownda we naiN wal ni

Mairay chahkayaaN nay mainu aay phhasaayaa
Adhi adhi raateeN aan kay jagaayaa
Tay phair mairee akhh na laggi

Mairay do pasay Punjab Ek chamba Ek ghulab

Awaaz Punjab Di, Punjab di rooh, JhanaaN de KanDay, JhanaaN de paar...baaray ki khiyal ay?

Shikra Jee: Inna vee kee sochna ke dimagh dukhaN lagge. Lo jee, maiN do tin naaN taaN 2 minutaN wich bana dauN. How about Punjabi Sangeet, Punjab de Rang, MaaN Boli de Jhankar or Pardes Punjabi Program?

Bali ji: Tuhanu lakh lakh vadaiya hon nameh radio show diya, Rab kareh tuhanu TV teh bhi programme laun da moukah mileh. Par gusah na kariyo tusi tha mera dimagh dukhan lah ditha. Tusi puchiya see koi radio show layee naam soch ke dasiyo, mein saari raat soch da riya par koi original taaza naam nai soch vich aiya. Hun mein araam kar ke phir soch ke dasoonga.

Kujh unj vee rahwaN okhiaN sun

kujh gal wich ghamaN da toq(garland) vee see

kujh shah'r de log vee zalim san

kujh mainu maraN da shok vee see

bhaNwaiN ilm se pyar day chhal da
bhaNwaiN pataa we se her gal da
parr kee kareeay oos pal da
jadouN dil aakhhiaaN nal ral da
lagiaN agay zor naaN chal da
sub bhul da paRhyaa kal da
phair ishq da bhaNbaR bal da
Aur mass haddaaN da ghal da
Dil saR da seenaa jal da
Tay jaouNda chain azzal da
Hunn baitth ki akhhiaN mal da
Ki faida aay ais gal da

bhaNwaiN ilm se pyar day chhal da bhaNwaiN pataa we se her gal da parr kee kareeay oos pal da jadouN dil aakhhiaaN nal ral da lagiaN agay zor naaN chal da sub bhul da paRhyaa kal da phair ishq da bhaNbaR bal da Aur mass haddaaN da ghal da Dil saR da seenaa jal da Tay jaouNda chain azzal da Hunn baitth ki akhhiaN mal da Ki faida aay ais gal da

Same is the problem with Urdu poet Iqbal. Nobody dares to bring Faiz at his level because of Iqbal's extra-literary contributions or image. Shiv's comparison with Sufis is strictly for poetic contributions in Punjabi language.

It does appear from Shiv's poetry that he was trying to understand man's purpose and place in nature with respect to everything else. Being a Brahmin, he might have delved into Upanishad, Vedanta, Ahimsa or Bhakti movement but never claimed to be a Sufi or even admired Sufism. No point comparing him with Sufis in terms of Sufism.

Same is the problem with Urdu poet Iqbal. Nobody dares to bring Faiz at his level because of Iqbal's extra-literary contributions or image. Shiv's comparison with Sufis is strictly for poetic contributions in Punjabi language.

It does appear from Shiv's poetry that he was trying to understand man's purpose and place in nature with respect to everything else. Being a Brahmin, he might have delved into Upanishad, Vedanta, Ahimsa or Bhakti movement but never claimed to be a Sufi or even admired Sufism. No point comparing him with Sufis in terms of Sufism.

It would be greatly appreciated if you all could make some suggestions for what I should call it.

Suman, the albums are actually full of Vadhai songs, in addition to vidai/doli songs. I'll check tommorrow for the names of the albums.

Shikra in Shiv's poem is symbolic of desire, greed or something similar. I also strongly agree with your comments about "old is gold" with regard to literature. I seriously believe that best of Punjabi literature is yet to come as well as best days of Punjabis. No point to keep everybody below Sufis, saints, Mohammad Rafi, Noor Jahan, Bare Ghulam Ali Khan etc. Notice, nobody to my knowledge came closer to NFAK in qawwali singing in the history. Somehow we are slow to recon=gnize the talent and do not help push them to the top. NFAK was well respected in a small circle before becoming famous, thanks to Peter Gabriel and Imran Khan. Even Raj Kapoor knew his talent long ago when he invited him to sing at his son, Rishi Kapoor's wedding, yet nobody in the sub-continent noticed it. We missed many good early years of NFAK, when he was young, talented and more energetic and would have performed exceptionally.

Shiv is relatively unknown for the same reason. A Pakistani poet well known for Urdu poetry, Munir Niazi, did not get the same kind of publicity for his equally beautiful Punjabi poetry. If you ask anybody in Pakistan about Munir Niazi, the response will be, the guy who wrote, "us bewafa ka sheh'r hey aur hum haiN dosto" - a very popular and beautiful ghazal in urdu.

Saeed Farani: I think there is no shame in admitting that a poet of today can be just as talented and inspiring in his writing as sufi writers of 200/300 years ago. Their time in history does not give them a god given right to claim that they were the only poets who expressed themselves in a unique way, a way that inspires generations of people. will we ever know that Bade Ghulam Ali Khan was as good if not better than Tansen or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan a better qawwal than the qawwals in the moghul period, or if the 'Rock' is a better wrestler than Dara Singh (oops sorry for that comparison).

I have a lot of respect for sufi poets and I can say that they wrote some superb poems and also some mediocre ones, so even the masters of that time werent all perfect. But I do think modern writers should also be given the respect that they rightly deserve. I have heard so many Pakistani and Indian artistes who have sang Shivs poems but havent acknowleged his name Ie. there is no mention of Shiv on Nusrats Album of 'Mae ni mae', so maybe one is listening to Shivs poetry without realising its his work.

Sameer: I agree with you on Shikras gender.If he was a female then why is he referred to as a male as in the line... choori kutta teh oh KHAANDA nahi, onoo dil da maas kuwaya. I was told by my family elders that it was a bird of prey that usually hovers above a roadside or a country pathway.

Safir Ji:

MaiN tuhada Shiv Kumar Batalvi day baray likhhia hoya mazmoun paRhy aay. Asal wich kissay baray wee likhhna khasa mushkil kam honda aay. Insani zindagi da kaynawas aina zyada phhaylia honda aay kay ohnouN samaitnaaN ais tareekay naal kay lokaaN tak ous banday di pahchaan pohanch jay baRa oukhha jayha lagda aay.

Siv Kumar Ji di qalmi tasveer tusi ikhtasar day bawajood baRee achhi khhichi aay. haaN agar shairi tay turjumaa dou column bana kay wakhhoo waakhh kar dittay jaanday tay paRhan wich zyada assaani ho jaandi.

Tusi bilkul theek kahnday oo kay Pakistan wich baRay ghut loog Shiv Kumar Ji nouN jaanday naiN halaaN kay lahore day stage tay Shikra walee nazam hazaraaN waar paRhi gaee aay lakin sunan waliaN nouN shaid ee aay pata howay kay aida likhharee koun aay.

Mairaa mushwaraa aay kay ess mazmoun wich Shiv Ji da kujh kalaam hor add kar kay tay THE NATION, THE NEWS tay FRIDAY TIMES day alawaa FINANCIAL TIMES and NY TIMES wich wee bhaijou. Mazmoun ais worth day hayga aay kay ainouN apnee jagaa banawan wich koi mushkil naee howay gee.

Jeyounday Rahoo....Dahda mushkal kam pay kar day pai oo.

Heirs pardon killer father under Qisas law

By Rafaqat Ali

ISLAMABAD, July 26: Zakir Hussain Shah, a resident of Bara Kau ( a village next to Quaid-e-Azam University on Islamabad-Murree Road) locality who had murdered his daughter last month, will be absolved of the charge as his wife and son in their capacity as legal heirs of the deceased have agreed to pardon him under the Qisas and Diyat law.

The Qisas and Diyat law, which was enforced in 1990 on the insistence of the then chief justice Mohammad Afzal Zullah, is being massively abused. Under the law, murdering a family member virtually carries no punishment as the other family members have the right to pardon the killer.

The Qisas law has changed the nature of the crime. Before the introduction of this law, murdering a person was crime against the state but now it is against the person. The heirs have powers to pardon the murderer.

Zakir had slit the throat of 18-year-old Sabiha on June 26 at Dhoke Khayam on suspicion that she had become pregnant. The matter was reported to the Bara Kau police by her maternal uncle, Ibrar Hussain Shah. Ibrar had stated that Zakir had murdered Sabiha after tying her with charpoy.

Zakir disappeared from the scene with the knife and later obtained pre-arrest bail from the sessions court of Islamabad. He has since returned home and is now living with his wife and son. He had submitted a compromise deed on behalf of his wife and son.

The police presented the challan in the court of the district and sessions judge, and the case is slated to be taken up on Saturday. The court would have no option except to verify from the heirs whether they had pardoned him or not. If the response is in affirmative, the matter ends there and the murderer father would be a free man like he was one month back.

The main argument for the enforcement of the Qisas law was that it would have deterrence effects on society and the homicide would decrease. Twelve years after its enforcement, the law is being misused to the extent that people now commit homicide with impunity, especially in family.

Justice Munir A. Sheikh, senior puisne judge of the Supreme Court, has been observing time and again that after the introduction of the Qisas law, the crime rate has increased. Recently, he asked Jamaat-i-Islami lawyers during the course of Riba case to state whether the murders had decreased. When the counsel had no answer, Justice Sheikh said his experience as a judge of the high court and the apex court was that now people murdered with impunity.

In another case, a had killed his four sisters in Mardan when they demanded share in the ancestral property. The mother, who was the legal heir of the deceased girls, pardoned the son and the case ended then and there. Similarly, a man in Sargodha opened fire on his family members, resulting in death of his two daughters. His wife and other daughters, wounded in the shooting, pardoned the murderer, as they were the legal heirs of the deceased.

Sajnaa kay sahray ki laRioN maiN phhol haiN
Uss ko tou gori kay nakhray qabool haiN

Uss kay bhi dil maiN tarung
Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

Sajnaa ki aaNkhhooN maiN nachaiN sharataiN
Ulfat ki chehray pay likhhee abaarataiN

Ulfat kay aisay aahung
Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

Sajnaa kay waday maiN jevan ka pyar hai
Gori ki bahaiN muhabat ka haar hai

Bikhhray muhabat kay rung
Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

shagufta ji, tusi odaaN vee kadE kuj likhiya karo, sanu vee towadi soch dee benefit hovE...vaise assi te mazaak ch chedkarni kar rahe see, tusi eveeN serious mann baithE, lekin chalo apologies ki towanu eveeN ena bore keeta, aggE vaaste naheeN kardE.

Leay haathouN maiN mehndi kay rung
Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

Gori kay maathay pay jhumar hay pyar ka
Charcha hay gori ki garden kay har ka

aankouN main lay kay umung
Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

Gori kay haathouN maiN sonay ki chooRiaN

Sahnee paRay gi ussay apnouN say dooriaN

ban kay uRay gi patung

Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

Gori kay kaanooN maiN heray ki baliaN
Chunree maiN uss kay gotay kanariaN

dekhay jo rah jaaee dung
Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

laynay ko aa yaa hay sapnouN ka raja
saath apnay laayaa hay woh band baja

badlaiN gay geenay kay Dung
Chalee gori sajnaa kay sung

Okay try a CD about wedding songs by Anuradha Paudwal and her daughter on T-series or some other group. One long and very famous song, good for dancing and swesting is "tuN tuN nach munde dee ammaN" by Apna Sangeet or "aaja nach le" as in the movie Moonsoon Wedding.

This is in re: to ICHABAL This is the title of one of the poem by Bhai Vir Singh The whole title is Ichabal te Doongian Shaamaan.

DB Ji main aap nu oh list v bhej reha haan aap de email address te.

RAB RAKHA

DB ji. Please dont regret ki sehra nahi paRdeya tohdde vyaah te. They read a real long one for my husband and trust me, NO ONE listened! Another custom that has vanished is the 'chhand' sunaana. They are a lot of fun.

Bali? Bawa? Anybody else has ideas for a Punjabi/Hindi gaana of vadhaai/marriage? Serious need hai and I am at my wits end.

khawaray kinnay warayaaN pahlay banayaa DB laRaa
rabba touN hi raazi rakhheeN uss da phhul phhulwaRa
paaNday teeNday tutday painda jadd we cheekh chahaRa
phhair sulaa we ho jaandi jadouN ghussa lainda saara

- tooN nai boldi rakaanay tooN nai boldi, tere choN tera yaar bolda.
and
- tera paTTeya vairnay ni, ikk hor kabootar phaRhak giya.:-)

I am not kidding...I have seen some couples do their first dance on one of these songs....few people in the back who know the meaning of the songs could not stop from laughing themselves to death..... in shame and irony of the situation.:-)

On a serious note, ajjkall koi sehra nahi paRhda?(serious mode off) mainu baRha chaa si ke mere viaah te koi mera sehra paRhe...na kisay likheya, na kisay chhapwayea, naa kisay gayea....main bina sehray gaaye giya viaheya...saari ummer dil ch hasrat jihi rahegi...sighs.:-)

Regards,

Sameer

Bali: Thanks for a fantastic punjabi patriotic show today. You are such a doll.

Bali ji, that is a beautiful Ghazal of SS Misha. He wrote some very good ghazals...ikk shair ay ussda...

[b]jhijak'da main vi riha, oh vi bahut sanghday rahe.
Dil hi dil wich ikk doojay di khair sukh mangday rahe.[/b]

Bali: You actually spent this much time thinking about me? This victory is worth celebrating, later tonight. There is a beautiful Urdu sheh'r, "hontoN pe kabhi unke mera naam he aaye......aaye to sahi ber ser-e-ilzam( for the sake of blame) he aaye". This ghazal was sung by Ustad Salamat Ali Khan and later by his son Amanat Ali Khan.

I think there is a lesson to be learned here, though it was not my intention. The lasson is for all Punjabi youngsters, males and females alike. Some 10-15 years from now, the make up of Diaspora Punjabi population will be mostly born-and-raised-outside-Punjab Punjabis. The level of love for Punjabyat, we born Punjabis depict will be diluted. Without being racist, which I am certainly not, the chances of preserving and promoting Punjabi culture is naturally and logically more among full Punjabi couple than half Punjabi couples. Since in the Western culture, the meeting of soulmates is dependent on the probability of encounters (accessibility) leading to falling in love and then marrying, the low probability of Punjabi-Punjabi encounters requires extra effort on part of one or both youngsters for the sake of Punjabi-Punjabi ending. The extra effort should not be cumbersome or boring, instead it should be charming, satisfying and entertaining. Otherwise it will be no match with the neighbor next door or a co-worker or ease of sexual fulfillment. Believe me, it has nothing to do with fascisim, or pure genes, bloodline or caste system. I see the importance of Diaspora Punjabis in the context of Punjabyat actually increaing with time.

First step in this romantic encounter Punjabi style is to get noticed - like introducing a product in this make belief world, with comic commercials trying to attract the attention. Getting noticed carefully leaves door ajar for changing the impression later yet it should be entertaining and charming enough to keep the hope and determination alive. I do not know if anybody will agree with me or not but speaking, communicating or even light teasing in Punjabi language is exceptionally charming, entertaining and satisfying. It compensates to a large degree for extra effort I mentioned above. If you notice, most of my cheRh chaRh was in Punjabi language and it is not easy for me to write Punjabi without any background in romanized Punjabi writing standards. Even if I have to apologize for cheRh chaRh (which I will do happily and often), the enjoyment of doing it in Punjabi language is mine to keep. I never did this in Punjabi language before but it is remarkably attractive to me and I'll gladly do it all over again if permitted or desired by Her Jatti Highness of the House of Vancouver.

HaN jee fer kee khyal a. Eh sheh'r bold likheN de kee loR see. Inni vee nazar kamzor nahi meri, poori 0/20 hegi. Ik akh bus khali Allah/ Eshwar/ Bhagwan e dekhdi te dooji dunya dekhdi.

Chal bus zara taza taza sheh'r paRh with apology in advance if needed. Bali, you know we are good friends. I have no reason to make fun of you. Lekin eh sheh'r bara wadhya banya a. [JattiaN ne JutiaN te, likhey naaN hoey Sameer dey.......hauli hauli dilaN wich khubdey jandey teer dey.....SauNdiaN oh joRh ke jutiaN, nall apney sareer dey.....Waris Shah nuN sub pata, bahaney Jatti Heer dey]. Kinni khush fehmi tainu Sameer apne bare. Per jey khyali pulao e pakaNa taaN kyuN na buhta flavorful pakao. Bali ehde wich sara kasoor mausam da ae, maiN taaN bilkul bekasoor aaN. Hun eh delete karan nu vee jee nahi ker reha. Okay, this is it....last time.....no more and never again. Bus paneer banaN da khyal jaan de, pleeeeeeeeeZ.

Achaa Sameer, sher vee likhnE aundE ne sanu, te cheR chaR karan vaaliyaaN da paneer vee banauna aunda E :-)) Te hor rahi gal juttiaaN di....(ahmne sahmne payaaN te haun hisaab barobar hoya hazoor)...es gal toN mainu yaad ayi e gal...jihde choN pata lagda ki naa saade Punjab de munde kadE haar dE ne, te be-had besharam hundE ne....ik bahut sohni mutiyaar chel chabeelee turi jaavE, gali vichdi, uper kothE te munde baithE dekh rahe sun aundiaaN jaaNdiyaaN kuriaaN nu ched de, te oh kuri nu ched baithe..'kitthe cha llE o malai diyo periyo, sohneyo, ik chittha dudh da saadE val vee maar jao'...te kuri see tikkhi (mere vargi) agoN jawab ditta...'oye badmarsho, takkE raho', (jutti laundi laundi boli) "jutti laake aavaaN towade kol"...mauriyo mundE bolE 'jutti paayi paayi aa jao maalko, upar kehra Akhand Paath rakhiya hoya E"........

Ehee gal e towadi Sameer, chalo haun barabar hoye-aN..haun towadi marzi je cheR chaaR phir dee shuru karni E..ajje te pyaar naal hee samjaaya sohneyo....;-))

For serious discussion, there should be more people interacting than the current crop because we are buddies for all practical purposes. I think talk about tusi ucche that you started was fantastic. MTM and Javed Zaki poetry is very entertaining and has even inspired me to jokingly say a verse or two. I was actually pleasently surprised to read my own memaN wang......I am sure next week we will discuss Safir's article in Dawn about Shiv Kumar Batalvi.

Actually Sufism discussion with Manzur Ejaz and others was so good that I used the knowledge gathered here to write something for chowk. They will be publishing it shortly.

Rahi gal Shahzada Saleem dee, oh taaN mazak ae. I actually think this kid has great potential to be among the top ones. All that has to do to tease Bali than to dislike Saleem. I have actually sent an e-mail to him through Bali thanking him for serving Punjabi people in Diaspora and preferring to sing in Punjabi language and so on. Baki rahi gal Vancouver dee te oh masla e koi nahi. Pretend to be one of Vancouver wala. Just notice my city name on this post. Chalo jee do baj gaye te neend mohtarma da door door tak koi pata nahi.

Sameer: baadshao eh Saleem kaun haiga ay? main kiya hukam karo te(kann de nazdeeq ho ke).. ajj ee chukwa dainday aan...pata nahi laggay ga kidhar giya ay.....bhaweiN saaray toRhay te boray chhaan mareyO.:-) tuhada shair bahut vadhiya si BTW.

MemaN wang angreji bolaN te JattiaN wang Punjabi.......basanti rung diyaN chunniaN te suit paun gulabi

Eh koi chaah patti aaley da sheh'r lagda? Eh taaN dudh patti tuN vee wadhya, half-and-half (half cream and half milk) te patti aaley da sheh'r lagda. Anyway, jehRiaN juttiaN paiN da der see oh private channel te aj pey chukiaN. Hisab kitab barabur, es lai cheRh chaRh fer tuN shrou. Oh Shazada Saleem aj pata nahi kithey aaaa. Mainu taaN Al-Qaida da member lagda aaaaa bus agli var ohnuN Canada da visa e nahi laggan deNa. Wadda Osama Bin Laden nuN chori chori Tora Bora dey gharaN wich ja ke gaNe sunanda see ga. Ohdee taaN OBL naal video vee hegi. MaiN aap vekhee jee....eh gana pata e kehRa ohne gaya? "Tusi vee Ghauri tuhade missile vee Ghauri tusi vich gharaN de rehnde.....". VekhaN, huN kiveN lagda Canada da visa agli var.

DullaBhatti: naeeN reesaN sheh'r Vancouver diyaN and naeeN ressaN Vancouver aalyaN diyaN. MemaN wang angreji bolaN te JattiaN wang Punjabi.......basanti rung diyaN chunniaN te suit paun gulabi.....akharey wich nachdeyaN wekh ke Saleem vee hoya sharabi......te ohne Punjab ja ke Punjab dee wadhani abadi.

kahnouN khojaaN dukh hazar

Kis malni mouh ishq siyaai
Chungi naee dil di ashnaai
Dahdi hondi jagg hasaai
Chittay chaatay tay ruswaai

Ishq ich hona paynda khwar
ChhayR naaN mairay dil day tar

Mairee koe majbori naee
Ishq da kam zaroori naee
Sidi saadi langdi jaandi
Wich koe khas pasoRi naee

kahnouN khojaaN maiN dukh hazar
ChhayR naaN mairay dil day tar

Mannaya dil wich utthda pyar
Dil chahway karaaN akhiaN char
Lakin sheshaa saamnay rakh kay
Jadd wee karna umar shumar

Bayh janaaN waaN maiN thak har
ChhayR naaN mairay dil day tar

Sameer bhra ji sanu ki sunaanday O asiN te saara kujh daak raahi mangwaanday aan. jiss koloN ikk waar kitaabaN mangwayeaN si ohnay mere palle 5 killo badaam te 6 jorhay Payless Shoes de bann dittay si pichhli waar. rahi gall Shazada Saleem, Musharraf sahib te Debi Makhsoospuri di....kithay raaja bhoj te kithey asiN gangoo taeli.......kithey Vancouver te kithey California...jiweiN pehlaN.... Lahore Lahore ay...hunda si, hun ....Vancouver Vancouver ay...hunda ay...;-)

CyclaaN day pyyaaN wich dabiaN phhassaa kay
Gahr kolooN lungda aay padlaaN ghumaa kay
Baree wichouN jadouN onuN takaaN sharmaa kay
Tak da wee hass da wee maahi mairay dil da
KeywaiN maiN sunawaaN mainu baar keyuN nai mil da

Kadi kadi aa kay roRay mar da way bayree nouN
Digday naiN bayr kosay maaN pai hanairee nouN
Buhay wichouN takaaN jadouN ohdi maiN dalayree nouN
Tak da wee hass da wee maahi mairay dil da<
KeywaiN maiN sunawaaN mainu baar keyuN nai mil da

Holi holi aa kay mairay dil wich bayhnda aay
MairayaaN khiyalaaN wich her walay rayhnda aay
MuNhoN kujh bolda nai naaN kujh kayhnda aay
Tak da wee hass da wee maahi mairay dil da
KeywaiN maiN sunawaaN mainu baar keyuN nai mil da

Dil nouN maiN apnay tay roz samjhani aaN
KolooN galaaN laa kay ayhda hosla wadani aaN
Samnay jai aay phair baRa ghabraani aaN
Tak da wee hass da wee maahi mairay dil da
KeywaiN maiN sunawaaN mainu baar keyuN nai mil da

DullaBhatti: MaiN vee Musharraf nuN keha see ke Colin Powell JaaN Runsfeld de hath Punjabi Muhawre de collection bhejan lai per oh kehnda ke oh koi ik maheeney tuN mare jaan (assassination) tuN der ke ghar tuN bahar nahi niklya. Fer maiN Sunny Deol nuN keha ke Shahzada Salim de hath Punjabi Mohawre dee collection es patey te Bhijwa de. Rachna da Peo, 123 Rachna Avenue, Rachna City, RA 12345, USA. Dekho kee ban'da.

chaRiya Sau, tE latha pau!
UstaadaaN dE vaarE vaarE jayiye!
ooth arauNDE hee ladeeNDE hun!
oh maaN maargayi, jo daheeN naal Took deNdi see!
utoN bibiyaaN daahreeyaaN, vichoN kaalE kaaN!
odol gaayaaN nu daaj kaun diNda hai!
oho tun tunee, oho raag!
ooth khaali vee araavE, tE bhariya vee!
Apna lahoo pangranau naheeN rehaNda!
ApnE ghar laggE taaN agg, doosrE ghar laggE taaN basantar!
AisE suhaag naaloN randepa changa! (ok thats easy)
aana kee bhaalE, do akhaaN!
ander pain kurla, baahar baansi vaalE naal gallaN
AppE hee meiN rajee pujee, appE mErE bachE jeon
aap na mariyE, swarag na jayiyE!
aanE nu maaN maseetE sut gayi hai!
Aanee aanaaN raliya, taaN chugaa galiya!

OK have to run, ik saheli papdi chaat laike ayi e, baaki phir sahee, BAHUT rehande ne ajje!

Whilst on the topic of Mohawre I am going to type a list and put it up, te je meiN inj karooNgee tusi mainu ohnaa de matlab zaroor samjha diyo...aaj kal samajh vee kitte parauni bankE gayi hoyi a.

Te jo tusi Mohawre da collection tol rahe ho, meiN already Manmohan Waaris te Debi Makoospuri dee india duty layi hoyi e, ki kittiyoN tol te rakhiyo. Although they have not yet had any luck.

Jis mohan Singh ji di kavita AAPAA tusi labh rahe ho os album da naam hai ICHABAL. Je is di copy chahidi hai te send me your address on the email address given above I am surprised at you that this album is not in your collection

The Babu Rajab Ali pages are beautiful. I spent half the night reading his poems. Thanks so much Safir, and Dullabhatti ji, whats the name of the book you mentioned you had of his a while back, I'm going to see if I can get someone to find a copy in India.

ana Jee. Now I am feeling real hungry because there is no mention of potatoes in the dishes you mentioned. Actually, ana, it was making fun of potatoes and not vegetarianism. Living in US and eating out mostly has made me sick of potatoes as French fries, baked and meshed varieties. No matter what you feel like eating, potatoes in some form is there. I never finish the potato part of my meals. I once tried vegetarianism for many months but it is difficult to keep up, when eating mostly outside. There is just not enough variety in vegetarian dishes available in "carnivorous" societies.

suman and Dulla Bhatti: In "tusi vee ucche......" verse, the defiance part is the second line and it should be read in a bit higher pitch than the first line. It is not the defiance for the sake of defiance but defiance for the good reasons. Therefore suman is not right if she says, "tusi patley.....asi motey" or somebody says. "tusi shareef........asi daku, sadi zaat daketi.....". The point is that symbolism is not unconditional. The condition of Kasur metaphor being decidely superior than Ucch metaphor must be met if extrapolation of Bulley Shah original verse is desired. In mota-patla comparison, mota is not superior to patla, especially healthwise and in shareef-badmash comparison, badmash is not morally superior to good human being.

Vaise tussi vi peg lagaan lagya, chhote chhote aloo deep fry kar ke utte chaat masala dhurr ke snacks wang istemaal karna. Barhe hi swad lagange.

Summan and Sameer: I liked sameer's interpretation very much. In fact when I enquired about the shair that is what was in my mind...thats why I said ehde wich koi gujhi ramaz lagdi ay. Re-intpretation of poetry in new times and new situations is the only way to get the intended positive inspiration from it. Famous Punjabi poet Surjit Patar wrote a nazam called "hunn gharaN nu partna mushkil baRha hai"....he wrote it during the 70's about his friends who were involved in Naxalite movement..and were fugitives...10 years later the Sikh militants were quoting that poem too for their friends who were underground and could never return to their homes. Some people actually made a big fuss about it in 80s...even Patar had to clarify once that it was written long time ago and not for them:-)...but it is a beautiful poem and touches the nerve of anyone who is in that situation...in fact people in diaspora think that, that poem is for them too.

baaki Suman ji, tuhada shair te hor vi sonay te suhaga..I have memorized it...mainu vi issdi baRhi loRh paindi ay..annaN ki bhaalay dou akhaN.:-)

'Tusi patle, tohddi jaat patli tusi patley loge kahaande,

Asi mohte, saaddi jaat mohti, asi kha kha mauj manaande'.

MTM: Another very good but kind of sad poem. I hope this is just a poem.

Dohlna
NaiyouN bolna
Roona baitth kay teray samanay
Dukhh naiyouN phholna
Dohlna
NaiyouN bolna

Mairee akhhaaN wichouN ravi tay chanaaN wagda
Pyaa balda way seenay wich lumboo aggda
Dil dunniyaa day wich naiyouN maira lagda
TouN tay jaanana way jeena kinna aokha jagda

Dohlna
Kayha naiyouN rolna
Roona baitth kay teray samanay
Dukhh naiyouN phholna

TouN tay jaanana waiN mairayaaN khiyalaaN wali gal
Mairay athhroo tay mairayaaN malalaaN wali gal
Saaray dil wichouN utthday suwalaaN wali gal
Saaray mairay uttay tutday azaabaaN wali gal

Dohlan
Mouh naiyouN khholna
Roona baitth kay teray samanay
Dukhh naiyouN phholna

JeRaa likhhayaa naseebaaN wich milnaa zaroor
Ainaa kamaaN wich honda naiyouN kissay da qasoor
Ais dunniyaa day wich banda kinna majboor
Rouda utthday naiN dil wich jadouN wee fatoor

Dohlna
Wiss naiyouN gholna
Roona baitth kay teray samanay
Dukhh naiyouN phholna

If Kasur is equality than Ucch is inequality. One can go on justifying equality of all human beings on scientific, religious, moral and ethical basis. If you want to think of Kasur as earth, then Ucch is sky. The meaning of this sutra will then be that we are earthly creature and no need to make connection with the sky as better because God lives up there according to Judiac, Christian and Islamic traditions. Scientifically there is nothing that separates earth from sky. Basically if you jump on ground, you are in the sky for a split second until gravity pulls you back to earth. Therefore the expalnation of sutra will be that having your feet firmly on ground as part of the earth is better than keep jumping to the sky all life with gravity keeps bringing Ucch back to the ground. Now change the symbols again and think Kasur as Punjab and Ucch as those who live in Punjab but make it less important part of their identity. Bulley Shah will then be saying: Look people, "asi Punjabi, sadi zaat Punjabi, asi wich Punjab de rehnde". Why not accept the reality instead of keep looking extra-Punjabi identities for artificial or selfish reasons. Just accept your place as house of God as well as Heaven. Now change symbol of Kasur as pind, and read, "asi paindoo, sadi zaat paindoo, asi wich pindaN de rehnde". Now Ucch represents those urbanites and non-Punjabis who keep making fun of somebody's place of birth, considering them lower in society and power structure eading to less and less opportunities to paindoos, although paindoos are in majority. Once again think of Kasuri as women. It will give menaing of defiance about women's place in society and rebelling against Ucch which represents status quo, traditional exploitation through patriarchal system. And so on. None of this was the motivation of Bulley Shah in this sutra but this is the beauty of a sutra. Yet it is such a simple verse for anybody to understand. What a beautiful sutra it is.

I think MTM meant the ode to Waaris Shah by Amrita Pritam. It can be found on several other sites but I already have a copy, so to save you the trouble here it is:-

aj aakhan waris shah nooN kithon qabran vicho bhol!
te aj kitab-e-ishaq da koi agla varka phol!

I say to Waris Shah today, speak from your grave
and add a new page to your book of love

ik roi si dhii Punjab dii tuu likh-likh mare vaiN
aj lakkha.n dheeyan rondian tainu waaris shah nooN kahaN

once one daughter of Punjab wept, and you wrote your long saga:
Today thousands weep, calling to you Waaris Shah

uTH darmandaN diaa dardia uTH tak apna Punjab!
aj bele laasha vichiiaa te lahu di bhari Chenaab!

Arise, oh friend of the afflicted; arise and see the state of Punjab,
Corpses strewn on fields, and the Chenab flowing with much blood.

Kiseh ne panja paaNia.n vich ditti zehar rulah!
te unhaa paNian.n dharat nu ditta paani laa!

Someone filled the five rivers with poison,
and this same water irrigates our soil.

Jithe vagdi phuuk pyaar di ve oh vanjhli gai guwaach
ranjhe de sab veer aj bhul gaye usdi jaach

Where was lost the flute, where the songs of love sounded?
And all ranjha's brothers forgotten to play the flute

dharti te lahu vasiya, qabran payiyan choN
preet diyan shaahazadiia.n aj vich mazaaraa.n roN

Blood has rained on the soil, graves are ooxing with blood,
The princesses of love cry their hearts out in the graveyards.

aj sab 'qaido' baN gaye, husan ishq de chor
aj kitho.n liyayeh labh ke Waaris Shah ik hor

Today all the Qadio's have become the thieves of love and beauty,
Where can we find another one like Waaris Shah?

aj aakhan waaris shah nooN kithon qabran vicho bhol!
te aj kitab-eishaq da koi agla varka phol!

Waaris Shah! I say to you, speak from your grave
And add a new page to your book of love.

Please excuse the typos, it was done in a hurry.

. . . . . . . WaNgaar . . . . . . . .

Aao Yaaro! Koi ratRi reejh osaaro
AkhaaN de vich chaanan bhar ke
ApniaaN sooliaaN modhe dhar ke
Apni Apni Jooh tooN niklo
. . .Waile de sheehaaN nooN maaro.

SaaNjh di nighi bukkal de vich
ArmanaaN da aika kar ke
Ikko jayya lekha kar ke
Shoah chooN baiRi paar otaaro
Tikhi bhaiRi saar sahaaro
. . . .Waile de sheehaaN nooN maaro.

Jeevan surt sohaagi sajno
Roashan akhiooN, bhaagi sajno
Shaam thakan jei na'umeedi
RatRi soch de hathiN cha ke
Apna aNg sarir dokha ke
Aa'darshaaN da mach macha ke
Naabhar raNg osaaro
. . .Waile de sheehaaN nooN maaro

MTM: Do you(or anyone else for that matter) have a copy of Amrita Pritam's mentioned poem? It would be a good piece to have on this website.

I really like Rang rangiliya pinjiriya mein nain tere vich rehandi by alam lohar, I know its not really exactly about what we are talking about. Its funny though all the girls that have listened to it with me, just from the chorus assume thats what its about. I have lots of Punjabi songs that sing sing about the sad fate of Punjabi women, yet not some from a woman's point of view that are rebellious. Chalo tolee jaaNdi ajje.

Shikra, I am so envious of you. I have met just about everything there is to meet Amitabh Bachan to Hritik Roshan, and half of Punjab's singers. I would exchange it all for one meeting with Nusrat. Unfortunately when he played an outdoor concert in Smallheath park, I could have been there, but it was the days before I even listened to Punjabi music, or and type of South Asian music. Never got to see a show live, and never met him...and he truly is to me gift from God, that we will always cherish our whole lives. Happy, sad, or reflective, its always Nusrats voice that accompanies these moments in life at home, always.

Gursharan ji, thanks for that, I had overlooked Bandit Queen.

Bada hi dil raazi hoya tohadi post parH ke ke tusi NFAK di barsi te ik aapna show Ustad ji nu dedicate kar rahe ho.Mere khyaal vich aapnu Movie Bandit Queen de music vichon koi pieces lainey chahide ne. The reason that you should pick music from this movie because he did complete justice to the subject of the film. Ohdi awaaz wich ohda dard nahin balke os battered woman da dard chonda hai. Je aakkhaan nu band karke oh music suno te oh Ustad diyaan hekaan nahi lagdiyaan oh saari lokaai di hook lagdi hai jo ke is tarah da zulm vekh ke chupp nahi si reh saki.

Baaki Shikra Ji you are a one lucky person in re: to see NFAK in person and all that. Tohadi post parh ke saanu vi ik ajehi shaam cheyey aa gayi jadon main haale india hi saan. te ik sham ustad ji da live programme vekan gaye. te naal ik amirjada c jis de kehan te show diyaan tickets v nahi laiyaan te ji jadon show vaali thaa te pohunche te ji na ticket te na ticket wala. bare sharmindey hoye. par ki keeta ja sakda c. kujh saroor vich v c. so ji faisla kita geyaa ke kol hi ik bus stop hega c jis uppr tin da shed c. ohna tinnaN de uppr baith ke assan Ustad ji nu maaneyaa. oh v saadi zindagi di ik na bulan vaali shaam ho nibadi.

RAB RAKHA

The article on this site about the life of Bulleh Shah written by J.R. Puri and T.R. Shangari is worth reading. You must go through it.

Es war da DAWN meyN chaNgi taraaN phrolya par Safir Jee da article na labha par ik hor cheez tuhade sabh mitraaN de paRhan jog e. O he Book Review, page 12, Books and authors magazine wich. Ehde aakhri page te The mystery mystic de naaN heth Bhagat Kabeer Daas baray Sardar Jafri di likhi gai kitab bare A. Rehman da tabsara e. Ehnoo paRh ke sawad aa gya.

Sunday de DAWN wich ee ik mazmoon Shahjahan Akhtar da "The lure of tuition dollars" akkhaaN kholan lai kafi e ke hun Amriki keho jae qanoon bana rahe han. It is very good article for those who live in USA as well as for the people of our region who want to live in that paradise. Getting the ticket for that paradise is becoming more and more diffffffffffffffficult. Another good article about devaluing dollar's rate as compare to Euro here in Pakistan. Amrika wasde PunjabiyaaN da Allah Beli.

The asian community in England gave him so much love that it remained his favourite place for performing, and he never forgot the Sikh community that showed him so much respect everywhere he went, he agreed to perform at Slough Ramgharia Gurudwara for an evening of Shabads. I remember talking to him once in the early days and I was a little nervous because I didnt know if he could understand my Punjabi and after I had spoken a few broken lines of Urdu he said 'why dont you speak Punjabi?', even then I thought his Pakistani Punjabi accent would be different to mine but to my surprise it wasnt different at all. When he found out I was from Jalandhar he smiled and explained that his family was also from jallandhar before partition.

I know he is no more but I will continue to collect every recording he ever did and that way he will always be alive for me, because everytime I hear a recording that I have not heard before I hear him doing something different with his magical voice.

Bali Ji! I had some sense of the Partition Project but was not very sure. as a matter of fact I am in the process of writting a Punjabi short story (a Imaginery one and my first attempt at short story writting). It is about three imaginery characters (a Sikh girl, a Muslim girl and a Muslim boy) who made up a love triangle in the pre-partition period but this love triangle is broken at the time of partition. The title is "TuTTi Takoon" (The broken Triangle). I hope to post on Apna webcite once it is completed. waise baiThh ke likhna baRa azaab lagda e. Mein kahaniaaN di ik collection pichhale koi do saalaaN tooN soch rehaaN waaN.

Rachna de Piyo, I've always been very serious about promoting more positive relations between our respective surrogate nations, but indeed you have had some impact with ideas I previously had not explored. :-))

Bali: Make sure whichever song you play to go with those beautiful verses by MTM, it should not include charnoN kee dasi, tumhi meri pooja etc. All those song make women look totally dependent on man. I am unable to suggest any song. It is sad not to find a song which portrays woman as equal. A good choice could ba one with no mention of love for man, just women to women talk like in giddha songs. HuN mera khyal aaaaa keh tuN sauN ja kyuNker maiN jara DullaBhatti te Shikrajee naal gup shup lani aaaaaa.

Shikrajee: I thought it was so obvious that I have personal channels of communications open with Bali for a while and some of that stuff like Rachna jokes spillover on this forum. She is actually a very dear friend of mine and that is why I can cheRh chaRh with her with so much confidence. Otherwise it will be stupid of me just to keep poking fun of anybody, particularly a lady, on routine basis. She knows very very well that I am not saying all these things in serious manner. I am sure she will not contradict what I just said. The BKD in Vancouver was Bali herself and since Bali is short for some Sikh female name, I was just guessing in her typical accent and ending it with BKD (Bujh Kay Duss - solve the riddle in English). Such things are impromptu, easy and for momentary entertainment, no long term meaning and no serious discussion is necessary. For example she already knows that I am bent upon cheRh chaRh today also but this thing can not be done alone; I must be interacting with someone to do this. The bad part of it is that I have the advantage of excellent personal relationship with her to cover any stupid mistakes while other(s) don't.

She is a very fine lady and very enthusiastically dedicated to Punjabi causes. Maybe I have contributed little bit in influencing her mindset into stressing that a good relationship among Punjabis across the border and across religion boundries is the best way to serve Punjabi causes. At least I notice that in her talk on Radio more than before, although it might be my wishful thinking.

Female singers that have sang Shivs songs that I think are worth listening to are Surinder Kaur and Jagmohan Kaur. There is a lovely song by jagmohan titled, 'jad pehan kupahee phul veh sanoo oh ruth ledai mulh veh'.

Kee kahaaN haun towanu? Pehli gal tusi dil rakh ke kehna nahi mauriyaa, te dooja kamaal hee kar gaye. Shukriya towada bahut, those were strong and simple words. SiddiaaN dil te laggiaaN, akhaaN ch athroo aa gaye. JeoNdE Raho!

P.S. Tommorrow I will find an opportunity to air your words, perhaps you'd care to suggest an appropriate song to go with them. Since Harmondeep is in tommorrow, its going to be a girl's power hour anyways.

Sassi rayt thhalaaN wich saR gayee
Heer siayalaaN hathouN mar gayee
Wich chanaaN day dubb gayee Sohni
SehbaaN annakh di sooli chaR gayee

YaaN tou onhaaN wagouN jee lay
YaaN sir sutt kay zahr touN pee lay
YaaN phair uTth kay datt jaa kuRiay
Sir chuk jind marzee nall jee lay

APNA friends, August 16th, I am dedicating the show to the memory of NFAK, any suggestions for anything you feel must be included are welcome. As for the partition serial, its not yet ready, I'm way behind, so I'm going to put it off for a while although there will obviously be some references.

Saeed Farani: You are right, I was up early and searching for that article at Dawn website but to no avail. Well, I suppose we can wait for another week.

Bali: Very few people knew that Govinda is another Amritsaria. Once MTV, Channel V and Punjabi music videos became popular, there he was: Dancing and singing.

Initials te mere hee ne, likan meiN te kadi shiv de geet kise hor le nahi gaye, sirf apne aap layi. Rachna dee gal vee karooNgee, kabrauNde kyon ho hazoor, thoDa jiha sabar te karo. Dialogues te iveN maran lagge hoye a jiven Punjabi film te hero banan jaa rahe ho...muchaaN nu kundal paunE naa kitte bhul jayiyo....heroine da je peengh paun nu jee keeta te door naa jaana pavE ..theek e na?

Aaj kal de Mirze, Ranjhe naa kann parwaunDE ne, naa hee patt da maas cheer khavaunDE ne, te naheeN jaan di baazi khed de ne, likan dialogue inj maardE ne jiveN Majnu de sakke bhraa haun..

Ok enough jokes, I know we had the discussion on women but I was just reading something, parke khoon nu phir avaalE aun lagge ....

Firstly two and half years ago Poonam Dhillon was shot dead by a ex boyfriend who continued to stalk her before her 18th birthday. The murderer was well known, and has relatives and friends in Vancouver and California, he was helped to get out to Cali immediately after the murder. Yet two and a half years later, every one that knew him is still covering up all details that could lead to his arrest. I believe the story has been on America's most wanted 3 times. I'm disgusted, kee saade lokaaN ne chooriyaaN paayaN hoyaaN ne, kise vich vee himmat nee ethe sach bolan dee, os vechaari layi insaaf lain di. Surely one person who knows where he is, has a conscience, obviously not...I guess obviously its her own fault, she shouldn't have dared to leave him...

This riled me up enough, but then the following deeply saddened me. Its not the Western press seeking to do yet another negative expose on South Asian culture, but the truth printed in an Indian newspaper.

On May 19th 2001, Dilbagh Nair 24, killed his wife Kanwaljeet Nahar. During his defence he presented the reasons why he killed her apparently absolving him of all responsibilty. The issue under debate was to decide whether the accused was guilty of murder or manslaughter.

It was contended by Mr Nahar that the verdict be manslaughter on the grounds he killed his wife in the heat of passion caused by sudden provocation. Ohhhh Mr Nahar pray tell what could this intense provocation be??? Well he went to her apartment uninvited, he threw accusation at her of being immoral and when she rightly told him to leave and that he couldn't do anything to her, he was infuriated. He was a man, the king of the house, she was his property, how dare she tell him that he couldn't make her do anything, so he did what he thought was acceptable and that was to kill her. Many men agree with him, hor karda vee kee vechaara, kuri ne odhi izzat mitti vich rol ditti see, in fact he was brave, ohne koi fikar nee keeta ki ohnu koi saza miloogee, ohne daag nu mitaa ditta. Ehna nu kehnde ne marad. (That was all dripping with sarcasm, should anyone be so naiive as to take me words seriously).

It makes me cry, how many women are living with men like Mr.Nahar afraid that if they left they may meet a similar end, I'm not exaggerating, I know lots..if not death, certainly an existence made worse than death by society, family and the ex partner.

Its been discussed to death on talk shows here, and the call ins are unbelievable, ok so nobody comes out and says he did the right thing. Yet reading between the lines its not difficult to hear the underlying message. They don't say how can we educate our community that women are not objects or property, they instead ask, 'we hear she smoked, and talked to 'boys', how can we educate our girls not to do these things?'

Kanwaljit was a victim from day one...married by her parents to this man when she was just 17 (child abuse, in my eyes), they lied that she was 19 to the authorities so she could be sponsored into Canada. The marriage was finalised on the agreement that the rest fo her family would be brought to Canada by her with the help of her husbands family. I wonder if this perhaps coloured their view of 'the suitable match'.
She the suffered with her husband who was abusive, gave birth to her first child at the age of 20, was admitted to hospital suffering from severe depression, yet was described by her in-laws as a loose, party girl with no family values who smoked cigarettes.

Oh pls, when is the community at large going to open their eyes. So many young girls I speak to say, they are not proud of being Punjabi and see it as totally backwards,and though they don't see the whole picture, who can really blame them for feeling this way. Let down over and over again, families who tell them they are equal but forget to celebrate their 18th birthday whilst remembering to celebrate every one her brother ever had. Putting her under lockdown for kissing her fiance ( someone I know who is going through this right now) whilst her brother has slept with anyone that would let him. Women are not going to teach love for Punjabiat to their kids when they are not getting any from it. They'll be throwing the baby out with bathwater...not a intelligent choice but an emotional reality. I had to get that off my chest. Most of you on here have the right idea already, so this is not to preach. Dullabhatti ji remember when that girl jassi was killed in India, (the jassi and mithu story), I did a show in her memory and I let her mum, and maama have it on my show regardless of the consequences, but do you know I had some people calling saying to me, well what did you expect her parents to do, nothing? She gave them no choice...I want to cry at comments like this. Apne aap nu jhoothi tasali dindi hundi see, that its just the older generation and with the next two generations its all going to change, but my interactions with the local youth, tell me I have been deluding myself.

MTM ji, je Kanwaljit dee dard bhari kahani te ik choti jahi kavtaa pesh ho jaave???

That singer in Vancouver, BC is BKD. Funny isn't your initials somewhat similar? JaaN taN eh Balwinder Kaur aaaaaa, JaaN Baljeet Kaur aaaaaa, JaaN Balpreet Kaur aaaaaa, JaaN Bitti kaur aaaaa, JaaN.........Bujh Key Dus??? Na, huN ker Rachna de gal?

Eh Sunny Deol hona di gal jehri keeti mere dil di keeti hai . Sunny Deol dee awaaz te bari sohni lagdi e, lekin ohde dimaag ch maaya ta bekhaar chariya hoya. Towanu pata ee hai, eho jahe Punjabi odhoN sirf ban-dE ne jad jeb nu faida disse...vaise kitthe, ethe aye sun, Punjabi boli massi jaaNdi see ohna koloN...evee vadde desh de sher bani firde, jinne apna vehra naa sambiya ohne hor kisse da kee sambh laina...kee khyaal e?

Fer Bali naal cheR chaR karni. Dil te ker reha ae. kee kyal a.

I am not sure who wrote it but got to be one of the Kasuris....Waris Shah or Bulleh Shah. Zakki sahib ehdi zara tashreeh karoge? pehli nazray gall sidhi jihi lagdi aa...par je thorha socho kujh doonGhi ramz lagdi ay.

[Bali ji, Pali Detwalia has been singing for well over 20 yrs but I don't remember any of his songs....eh loag tuhade contact ch aunday ne ehna nu thorhi matt diya karo...ehna nu dasso bhai je apni qabliyat de sir te nai chammak sakday tusi te phir lokkaN diyan jazbaataN naal na khaido negatively. je amar hona chahunday O te phir koi piyaraN de geet gao.

- Shazia Manzur -2, the whole page is not linked correctly. is a copy of -1
- Sain Akhtar page: Sade naal mukdi mukaa--- bad link.
- Gurmeet Bawa page: Diga pai ni gori shish mehal toN & Sassi Punnu bad links

By Saeed Malik

Each geographic region in the subcontinent is known for its distinctively recognizable culture and the peculiar traits and customs of its people, which differentiate them from the residents of other areas. The contributions made by the people of these regions towards the flowering of such creative arts as sculptors, paintings, dances, music and cinema, have been recognized by social historians.

To cite one example, the Punjabis, especially the vivacious residents of Lahore, in addition to their fondness for martial arts like wrestling and tent pegging, are also known for their abrasive interest in performing arts such as literature, theatre, film-making and music. During the 20th century, this city has groomed renowned actors, actresses, producers, directors, playwrights, composers and playback singers, whose contributors to the evolution and promotion of cinematic arts have become legendary.

From the era of silent films in the 1920s to the exhibition of the first sound motion picture Alam Ara, in March 1931, and to the political division of India, a whole lot of Punjabi or Lahore-based artistes worked for the continued refinement of the cinematic arts in the subcontinent. There was a time during the decade of the 1940s, when several departments of Bombay film industry were dominated by technicians, actors, actresses, directors, composers and singers who originally hailed from Lahore, or had received their education and groomed in this city.

Lahore has a history which dates back to the period of Mahabarat. The city has witnessed the clash and later fusion of different civilizations,which has contributed much to the chiselling of its cultural personality. The culturally vivacious citizens of Lahore, over the centuries, have inherited much from the historical fusion of different civilizations and interactions among the followers of different faiths.

The contributions of the people of Punjab, especially Lahore, to the flowering of cinematic arts in the subcontinent have had tremendous impact on this domain of creative human endeavours. The growth of cinema in India owes much to the contributions of talented artistes originating from this region of the subcontinent, irrespective of their religious beliefs. It was because of the hard work and creative ingenuity of these people that Indian cinema ascended to such great heights in which it finds itself today.

When Kolkata was the centre of film production, many artistes from Punjab went to join the studios set up in that city. They sought and got employment with the Maiden Theatre and New Theatres. Surprising as it may sound to many, the first ever Punjabi film, Sheela alias Pind di kurri, was produced from Kolkata, in 1935. The cast of the film included, among others, (then) Baby Nur Jehan, her sister Haider Bandi, Pushpa Rani and Mubarik. Punjabi artistes, who worked in Kolkata studios included Pirthiviraj Kapoor, K.L. Saigal, Jagdish Seihi,A.R. Kardar, and Kedar Sharma. Iqbal Begum alias Balo, the mother of Sabiha Khanum, and Mukhtar Begum, the older sister of vocalist Fareeda Khanum, also had their earlier stints in that city.,p> Lahore also provided a number of artistes to the Bombay film industry, and they later became stars of the Indian silver screen. Actors Najamul Hasan, Om Parkash, Hira Lal, Moti Lal, Majnu, Pran, Kiran Dewan, Madan Puri, Nazir, M. Ismail, Dev Anand and actresses Khursheed Bano, Kamini Kaushall, Geeta Bali, Surriya, Nur Jehan, Sardar Akhter, Meena (Sohri), Veena, Meena Khmari and Shayyama are shining examples.

Among the Punjabi producers and directors who later became the moguls of Indian cinema were A.R. Kardar, W.Z. Ahmed, Wali Sahib, M. Sadiq, J.K. Nanda, K.D. Mehra, A.S. Rawail, Kedar Sharma, K. Asif, Rajinder Singh Bedi and Nazir.Among the Punjabi contributors to the music department of Indian cinema were Rafique Ghazanvi, Khurshid Anwar, Feroze Nizami, master Ghulam Haider, Shyam Sunder,Pundit Amar Nath, Ameer Ali, Husunlal-Bhagatram, Gobind Ram, Master Inayat Husain, G. A. Chishti, O.P. Nayyar, Hansraj Behi, (composers) and Muhammad Rafi, Shamshad Begum, Zohrabai Ambalewali, Hameeda Bano, Surrender Kaur and Zeenat Begum (playback singers). The list containing the names of lyricists from Punjab, who have contributed wholesomely to the flowering of film songs in Indian cinema, is long but the ones which immediately come to one's mind are Akhter Chughtai (New Theatre), Tanvir Naqvi, D.N. Madhok, Nazim Panipati, Sahir Ludhanvi, Rajender Krishen and Qateel Shifai.

One big name whose immense contributions to the art of film-making in India earned him a place among the founding fathers of Indian cinema was that of late Mian Abdur Rashid Kardar. He wasfrom Lahore,where he started his career as actor, producer and director of several silent films in the decade of 1920s before joining the Kolkata-based film industry.

The Punjabis are known for their love for different sports and martial arts, and have been equally prolific and proficient in performing arts. They have made enduring impact on the cultural ethos of the subcontinent, causing a metamorphosis in different arts by providing them a secular ambience.