Zakki sahib, dictionary da writer kaafi khushdil banda lagda ay.....eh kitay Maula Bakhash Kushta Ambarsari te nai?

- Janab Dullah Bhatti Nausheharvi Wahgabaardarvi Ambarsaria:-)[too many arvis?]

Thanks Mahmud Fahim for interesting piece of information. Somehow I had this feeling that Maulvi Abdul Haque was actually a Bengali or perhaps settled there.

DullaBhatti: This looks quite a bit like what I wrote, "In Defense of the Left"; do you remember that one? I assure you this piece is not written by me and, you know, my past in Pakistan was Jammatia and Islami Jamiaat-e-Tulbaa (or Tabla) though now buried in 10 feet thick walled lead container underground alongwith nuclear waste. Alas! What a waste of early formative years.

Bali: I listened to your show today. What a great selection of songs by Harminder Singh. These are my kind of songs and I wish you success with AkhaaRa stuff.

Ralli pehlwaan moajaaN lutt, akhaaRa koadoo pehlwaan bijli, nizd gaNda naala mochi Gate, Lahore.

1) Najib-ul-tarfain Jut: Jidhe NaankiaaN te DaadkiaaN tarfooN ghat tooN ghat kise ik nazdiki rishte-daar da naaN 'Najib' hove te oh vaahi-biji karda hove. Ohde kool ghat tooN ghat 5 marle zamin, ik dhagga, ik mujh (ya gaaN) zaroor hoon. Palle bhaaNviN kujh na hove par aakaR har aNg vichooN raalaaN vaangar digdi phhire.

2). Asli Jut:"Bhullar, Maan te Heeir apne aap nooN asli juttaaN diaan zaataaN dasde neiN. EhnaaN tinnaaN qabiliaaN moojab baaqi sabh jut qabile modhooN de jut nehiN, Rajpooti asle de jut neiN. EhnaaN de motabiq eh tinnaaN qoamaaN bohat poraane vailiaaN tooN Baari doaab vich vasdiaaN piaaN neiN. Poraane jugg vich ehnaaN noon Ghuttar, ghoat yaaN Gutt (sinsakarat Yutt) kehNde san te eho lafz picchooN Jut vich badal giaa." (Ref: MaaN Boli, Lahore. August 1992).

ana: You sound Pakistani because Najibul Turfain is arabic word, literally meaning "high class/ pure from both side". Najibul Turfain Jatt means a person claiming to have both parents belonging to pure/ upper caste/ respected etc Jatts. This term is mostly used by Syeds though claiming that both parents, 4 grandparenst, 8 great grandparenst, 16......... are all coming from pure bloodline of Muhammad. Another term they use with similar meaning is "Ashraaf", meaning superior/ noble. I believe word Musharraf also means similar since he is a Syed.

I guess I can also call myself, with much more high degree of confidence than Syeds or Jatts, that I am a Najeebul Turfain Homo Sapien Sapiens. Last time some chimp messing up my pure bloodline must have been more than a million years ago.

Dr. Zaki,

I think, Pakistan hasn't totally lagged behind in establishing gender equality on socio-economic and political fronts as such. Women can be found pursuing careers alongside men in practically every sphere of life. Actually, employers prefer hiring women due to their "better workers" image. Twice elected Benazir to the post of top executive of Pakistan signifies gender equality on the political front. Is that enough? Perhaps not, and indeed a lot needs to be done in providing opportunities and a sexual harassment-free work environment for those women who want to or must work. But, it's not a total loss either. Wouldn’t you agree?

I would agree that poverty has increased, one of the few miracles our government can genuinely claim to have to achieved without any hoodwinking. Disproportional defense spending has an undeniable role in that. However, it's massive corruption and down right ineptness and inefficiencies that primarily contributed towards squandering of resources and piling of debt. Lack of good governance and policy direction is stifling Pakistan of a vibrant economy despite the abundance of entrepreneurial spirit and human resources.

On a side note, without “stigmatizing” anyone, I would argue that incidents like gang rape of Mukhataran Bibi that grab international media attention enrage ex-patriots community living hyphenated identities primarily due to the reason that they have a direct bearing on its image. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be surprised if we were oblivious to this monstrosity as well just as we are to countless others like majority of the folks at ground zero, unfortunately!

Regards

Now if they worked so good then why can’t be people nostalgic about recreating similar discipline, as good Muslims or good Sikhs with respect to Sikh history? Here I would like to start differentiating from Bali and Prof. Kahlon. You must clearly understand the foundations or paradigm of modern world. It is not based on good moral or ethical values according to Sikhism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity; you name it. The principles, on which the modern world is standing, progressing, developing and sustaining, are 180 degrees contrary to religious values systems. The basis of most of the functions in modern world are at best be considered lying, cheating, fabrication, exploitation, exaggeration, fooling, sinning etc according to the religious value systems. The diplomacy, negotiations, international relations, politics, domestic policies in running a country, the propaganda, exaggeration, fabrication, advertisement, marketing and publicity in business, the motion pictures, the birth control pills in technology or selling Coca-cola with respect to ethics.

Diplomacy involves lying, fabricating, exaggerating and so on and no religious morals and ethics can support it. No religion supports dishonesty and fraudulent exaggerated claims, but what is marketing about? All religions support honesty and speaking truth as is. Whole industry related to motion picture is based on fooling the brain through eyes that pictures are actually moving. They are just still pictures passing faster than the eye can see them separately. Birth control pills are based also on the principle of fooling brain into believing that the woman is already pregnant and thereby fooling brain into releasing certain hormones that make sure that sperms do not get near to egg. I can give you so many examples from science and technology because science is my background. Would Jesus, Mohammad or Nanak have approved if asked to allow fooling brain and eyes? I do not think so. What about Coca-Cola? It is just sugar, water, color, caffeine and oils emulsified in water. Yet it is 150 billion dollars industry worldwide with the help of marketing, sales, advertisements and so on. Cocla-Coal would not be there at all according to moral and ethics of religions. They would not support exploitation of sex through female models in Coke commercials. The sale will plunge and less advertisement revenues for TV networks and sports etc. The fact is that if our prayers of nostalgia for more good Sikhs and more good Muslims are answered, the world will turn upside down. With the paradigm of developed and developing nations shattered, every next meal on the table of good Sikhs and good Muslims will contain less and less bread and meat. The world economic system, scientific and technical innovations, banking system, and current world order will collapse under the weight of good values. Fooling is the name of the game in this world right now.

The question immediately comes to mind: Is lying better than speaking truth, is dishonesty better than honesty? Actually the answer is not so simple as it appears. We live in make belief world that is practical. The belief is spiritual and provides personal satisfaction. No one can deny the goodness of good moral and ethical values. The good values are highly desirable in personal relationships with family, friend, and associates and with oneself. Yet the real world is not so simple. No matter what I think of moving pictures or sex exploitation-based commercialism adding to the price of coke, I do buy and drink coke and watch movies. I would love to see the culprits of gang rape hanged, in my heart, but I am against death penalty in general. Is it split personality or hypocrisy? I do not think so. I judge everything according to the conditions in make belief world but my conscience is clear that I am not a bad person. I have used tricks many times during my past graduate and post-doctoral research in sciences but we call them novel approaches and actually appreciated.

What then is the answer? The answer in terms of game theory would be to think in terms of win-win situation. The win-win situation for the promotion of Punjabyat should not include defeating any other culture. The real life should not be looked as war or a sporting event where one side has to lose for other to win. Separate the make belief (real and practical) from the belief (spiritual and for living in peace with the self). The good Muslims and good Sikhs belong to the later category. The human right issues and women’s’ rights are practical things. If religions say good things about it; fine, but the solutions must not be filtered through the good moral and ethics of good religions.

Bali, don’t be nostalgic and sweat over not having enough good Sikhs; a bad Muslim or a bad Sikh might be more helpful in promoting gender equality. I bet you will repent for asking too many good Sikhs and good Muslims when your livelihood will be looked upon as inferior quality than the one reading the same book over and over and over and over. Do you understand how many people would have been starved to death by now if it was not genetic engineering (playing God or interfering in God’s own choice of genetic pool) of wheat and rice seeds? The make belief world is the one you will be living rest of your life. Fight the fight of women’s rights according to the make belief/ real world principles. Begging in the name of Holy Scripture by MukhtaraN Bibi’s father could not save her from being gangraped in a small local setting and you are wishing to change the women’s world by it? Wah nee Bali, tu sada (simple) te tera dil sada (simple), tainuN aiveN raqeeb (opponent) qurah (???) paya. HuN terey naal kee muqabla karna?

Dr. Zaki,

The easterners, conservatives and moderates alike do criticise appearances of western women in general. I am not aware of conservatives using filthy language in the media though. Anyway, my point had nothing to do with appearances. Women can wear what they want. I just won't look if it bothers me that much. My concern was women especially mothers being deprived of their nurturing role due to pressures of juggling full-time job and family. This is stifling them of quality of life and many are having to choose between a career and "stay-home" mom. For some the choice is easy while for others not so easy depending upon financial circumstances and more importantly on personal priorities.

In the context of Pakistan, I agree with increasing the participation of women in decision making on all fronts - family and national. In middle class educated families, women do play a significant role in decision making and are amply empowered. They might not be at the point of burning their bras just as yet but are surely far from being "subjugated" and "slave". This whole issue of gender inequality is blown out of proportion. However, the problem does exist at the lower level of society due to illiteracy and poverty. I don't how are we going to get rid of that considering the lack of compassion among the ruling elite.

Rest latter (preferrably through email), I am really exhausted and out of energy for some strange reason!

Regards

IMRAN! I do not know what do you mean by "emancipation' of women"? To me, it is to recognize, pursue and establish socio-economic and political gender equality. The concept of 'women's emancipation has intentionally been vulgarized by the Conservative Media in Muslim world (particularly, in Pakistan). They use filthy language and do not hesitate to demean them by calling 'prostitutes' etc; I am a witness to that. As a matter of fact, for a majority of Pakistani households, it has become a necessity (not a choice) for both spouses to be economically active to live a reasonable life. The poverty in Pakistan has increased during the last 15 years. It has increased from approximately 28 percent to 38 percent. With family size remaining at higher level (the Total Fertility Rate between 5-6) they have no option but to work for to increase their meager family economic resources. The payment of debt service (mainly foreign) and military expenditure almost eat up 90 percent of its national annual revenues. This is a purely economic argument in regard of women's participation in labor market. However, the realization to actualize their personal potentials and talents is the real motive (although more relevant in the case of educated women).
As for the issue of personal 'faith' is concerned I have no quarrel with that, but as long as it remains to the personal/private level. It only becomes a problem when someone seeks to make it a standard to stigmatize others and wants it to be imposed as an ideology of a society.

Des punj daryawaaN day wagday mitthRay paaniaN da
Des suchayaN siddayaN wassiaN mitraaN haaniaN da
Des pyar dee bolee da geetaaN da ishq kahaaniaN da
Des sufiaN pyariaN sohnyaaN dil dayaaN jaaniaN da

Des dudh da lassiaN chattiaN naal madhaaniaN da
Des athhray gabhroo sheraaN da alhaR jawaniaN da
Des saarayaN mosamaaN pyarayaaN rutta suhaniaN da
Des qolaaN da qol nouN sahNban da qol qurbaniaN da

It is about logical conclusions or extrapolation of basic Christian and Islamic belief. Christianity believe that we are all born sinners and we need to accept Jesus for salvation, or to become non-sinners. Islam believes that it is our duty to follow the path God has chosen for us and not follow the path he forbids you to follow. If you follow the forbidden path, you are committing sins.

Bearing these two basic beliefs of Christianity and Islam in mind, what is the most effective, efficient, fool proof, no fooling of God with re-reinterpretations and yet making this earth absolutely free of sins according to the basic Christian and Islamic beliefs? The only logical conclusion coming to my mind is a world (earth) devoid of human beings - no human, no sins. I would like to know if there is any wrong assumption in this logical conclusion. As long as we have human, we will have sins, murderers, cheaters, adulterers, rapists, corrupts, liars, people not practicing these two religions as God wanted and so on. Next best thing to no humans is perhaps very limited number of humans who can be easily forced or even coerced into obeying the laws of Gods in earnest.

doesn't the best solution (devoid of humanity) in itself enough to negate the basics or at least put them into unreliable if taken literally. Although God also says, be fruitful and multiply" but that is nowhere as important basic principles as I described earlier. The perfection or utmost fulfillment in total annihilation is very difficult to accept; do you agree? Individuals do sacrifice their lives for noble causes as they/ or as they are led to believe but that is markedly different than total annihilation as perfect solution. Doesn't then massacre/ mass suicide at Jonestown, Guyana makes it a step in the right direction? If that is the case, I would rather be little sinful and try to live out my life until it comes to logical conclusion naturally.

Sorry folks, last post omitted parts due to HTML command error.

Dr. Zaki,

What are we going to achieve by pushing poor women from one state of "false consiousness" to another? The trumpted "emanicipation" is merely another form of false consiousness. That's not going to last longer, as their is already increasing realisation among "emanicipated" women in the advanced society. Let's see where we will go from there!

I have intentionally avoided the debate on Islamic laws, because there is nothing to debate about them - that's part of my belief system. If they have negative implications for my selfish desires, then that doesn't render the divine laws "negative" or "insufficient". Now, does it? I only agreed with you on the basis that in a corrupt scoiety like Pakistan where it's easy buy four "pious" witnesses there is a potential for abuse of those laws. Otherwise, I accept whatever is prescribes by the faith and if I don't then I will only be a hypocrite. We have seen the fate of "reformed" religions.

Regards

Could anyone please put MTM's latest poem into gurmukhi for me?? Tejinder, my silent reader friend, if you are reading...perhaps???

So what is wrong about sex among consenting adults who are well aware of the irresponsible behavioral results. It boggles my mind to see people killing in the name of family honor, infidelity etc. First of all none of this drops the normal frequency of human behavior nor it deters from people taking risks. Sure, it is natural to be protective and selfish of one's own genes thereby creating social structure with decreasing chances of fudging up genes. But human sex is largely non-productive, except in Bollywood movies.

Having lived through universities in USA, my observation is that men are more inclined to take risk in sexual sense. It was always us asking girls to go out not the otherway around. The lust factor is obviously there but that in itself is not a degradation of female partner's status or men taking women as toys. I have never read any study which suggests that so-called easy girls having unhealthy marriages or higher divorce rate or men not wanting to marry a partner who started off as easy sex. Actually the most couples made in campuses are more often started and remained attracted to each other because of early/ easy sex than promiscuous behavior. Even I am more in touch and have friendlier relationships with those female aassociates from university years who once had intimate relationship with me.

The desi conservatives often respond by asking, "what if your sister ir daughter having an affair and how would you deal with it". For me, no matter what my sisters do or do not do, will always have loving and caring brother. The sexual behavioral based discrimination is blown way out of proportion in out culture and traditions. This is what I call obsession with borderline issues. More recently, the psychiatrists(?) advice couples having idfficulty in their relationships, to have more blue talk and explore sex in variety of different setting than traditional settings. And here you read that he shot her and her family because she was "easy" or broke his heart. Sex is natural if the two individuals involve it do not have irresponsible behavioral tendencies. It is not a crime against society, honor etc etc.

AzlaaN touN pa'ee sahndi hik tay dukh hawwa di jaaee
Khawary kudd tak ais day nawaiN lugee qahar kamaaee

sunniaN see hunn badliaN souchaaN jay kar nazar gumaaee
jis nouN kehnday naiN tabdilee kidray nazar naa aaee

Oohaee jabbr diyaaN tasveeraaN daindiaN roz duhaaee
Oohaee sir di pagg da roula ezztaaN jind phhasaaee

bhaNwaiN rishtay vakho vakh naiN Ess layee farak na kaaee
Kee babul kee putt kee khawand kee tatRee day bhaaee

Rabba touN hi sunn lay cheekaaN touN hi kar tarsaaee
Apnay karaaN touN tay dunniyaa hay anjaam noun aaee

Bushra Bibi,

That statement doesn't pertain only to so-called Islamic societies. Emancipated societies like the US we live in are included in that. Subjugation and slavery are relative terms and mean different things to different people. Some women may find fending for themselves a kind of subjugation and slavery by society imposed in the name of increasing economic throughput. Not all women are cut the same way and that needs to taken into account.

The problem with us is (people from our part of world) that we must swing from one extreme to another. Just read the letter sections in DAWN and The News and you will know what I am talking about. There is flurry of letters asking to hang or shoot the rapists, which is not the prescribed punishment for rape under secular law regardless of how despicable the act was. That’s just one example. It's this kind of mindset that causes the mess that we find ourselves in.

Best Regards

Boy's ordeal that led to rape scandal
July 13 2002

Islamabad: The public gang rape of a woman in Punjab province appears to have begun with another crime: three higher-caste tribesman sodomised her 11-year-old brother, and then tried to cover up what they had done, an investigation shows.
Police even locked the boy in a cell to prevent him from reporting the three men, according to an investigation by the provincial governor, Lieutenant-General Khalid Maqbool.

The case has prompted widespread calls to rein in tribal councils, after one such in the village of Meerwala ordered the gang rape of Mukhtaran Bibi as punishment for allegations that her younger brother, Abdul Shaqoor, 11, had "illicit relations" with a 30-year-old woman from a higher caste tribe.

The rape-by-decree has shaken the country, with the Supreme Court beginning a parallel investigation and President Pervez Musharraf ordering that $A14,730 be paid to the woman as compensation.

The governor's investigation found the older woman fabricated the allegations of an affair to cover up the sodomy of the boy by her fellow tribesmen.

Three of the four rapists have since been arrested, among a total of 13 arrests in the case. An official who locked the boy in a cell to cover up the crime has been suspended.

The New York Times, Agence France-Presse

Just to illustrate how we tend to blame the woman anytime something goes wrong, I'll go back to the story in Vernon BC where a woman, and 8 members of her faily were shot dead on her sisters wedding day by her estranged husband. I lost count of all the comments of sympathy I heard for the .............HUSBAND, the murderer...he was driven to it poor man, she was a very bad woman, she took all his money, she showed him no respect. These comments I heard from young people which really scared me. Then about 2 years ago when a young 18 year old girl Poonam Dhillon was shot dead in Vancouver by an ex boyfriend who couldn't let her go...I heard a roomful of boys from her grade telling me she was 'cheap'. It was her own fault she died, he loved her, really loved her, and she made him feel like nobody. Its sad, and it disgusts me. More than that, this youth is the future, so how far have we really advanced? Not as much as we may care to believe.

"By the way, there are countless Muslim women who are perfectly comfortable with whatever rights and responsibilities Islam has accorded them."

is so commonly used that i must repond. they are comfortable because that is the only way they can be comfortable. if they want to live a happy and respectable life in an islamic society, they have no other choice but to accept the conditions imposed on them. they are allowed to be comfortable if they fit in the standards set by the society, by mullah, by their fathers, brothers and husbands. this is an argument as old as the beginning of any form of slavery and always used by the masters. even in US context, southerners used the same arguments: blacks are happy and content where they are. we treat them nicely. they are happy. what is this fuss by the north?

success in brainwahing people, subjugating their minds and souls into accepting slavery is not a justification to continue slavery. what can i say?

Mukhtaran Bibi gets marriage proposals

Inaugurates all-boys school

By Abdul Sattar Qamar

MEERWALA: Mukhtaran Bibi, the 18-year old who was gang-raped on the order of a tribal jury here in the Muzaffargarh district has received two marriage proposals.

Army officer Mohammed Aslam Cheema from the Multan cantonment offered to take her hand in marriage through a newspaper advertisement Saturday. Another resident of the city, Ijaz Ahmed, a computer programmer, has also offered to marry Mukhtaran Bibi. Her response was not immediately clear.

On Saturday, Mukhtaran Bibi inaugurated the Government Primary School in her native Ghulam Fareed Gujjar village. Khurshid Ahmed Siddiqui, assistant education officer, said it was on her request the government established the boys’ school, the only one within a 20-km radius.

Mukhtaran Bibi has said she wants to use her compensation money (this includes Rs 500,000 from the government) to also build a school for girls and a mosque in the village. The all-girls primary school is expected to open after the summer.

BKD,

Let me re-orientate the debate towards Pakistan and Islam. That's the focus here or at least my concern. I believe, Islam was introduced to the area what is now Pakistan around 711/712 AD. So the concept of "half" status of woman as comapred to man must not have existed prior to that, as it was accorded to her by Islam. Now, Can you or anyone else here prove that Mukhtaran Mai is the first ever woman to be gang raped in that part of the world?

By the way, there are countless Muslim women who are perfectly comfortable with whatever rights and responsibilities Islam has accorded them. They are very secure in their beliefs and identity. I don't what the fuss is about on the part of few perturbed souls here! Women rights' activists better take stock of that instead of shoving down their version of "absolute rights" down everyone's throat. Otherwise, the toughest resistance they will face will be from the ones whose "rights" they are masqurading for. As far as more is concerned, for some people more is never enough. Baqol-e-Ghalib:

HazaroN khahisheN aisi ke har khahish peh dam nikle...

Culture and religion both play a role in this problem we are talking about. I think somewhere earlier yourself or perhaps it was Khwaja who said he believes Punjabi culture has most been influenced by Islam. I'm not going to say I agree with this, but I do agree that both influence each other. There are many ways in which Islam did raise the status of woman at least in those early times. Today though in the world in which we live, we need more! Sometimes what takes us forward at one point, takes us back at another! I apologise if find my viewpoint offensive.

Thanks Shikra, I have heard the original and it is in a class of its own.

BKD,

First of all, when we introspect, the purpose is to evaluate our own performance, identify shortcomings, and hopefully take corrective actions. The violence against women in this particular case is being introspected in the context of Pakistan which inculdes all of its provinces and their undeniable cultural baggage. I would reiterate my position that Islam has nothing to do with gang rpaes, honor killings, and such. Nobody has singled out Punjab. East Punjab is not even in details, as it's none of our concerns, or at lease mine.

Now when you start drawing analogy between "supression" of women in the name of religion going on in Saudi Arabia and that in Pakistan, your underlying supposition (link) is religion, Islam in this case which many of non-Muslims like yourself have very little understanding of and tend to focus on only the aspects projected in the media.

Media more often than not foucuse on only the negatives of everything, as positives are hardly considered news worthy. When was the last time you heard anything about the status accorded to mother in Islam who also happens to be a woman? However, media is not enitrely to be blamed either, because unfortunately, we ourselves never seem to fail in providing the fuel due to whatever reasons.

On the closing note, just because you do not believe in something (divine God) that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. So, to you, your God and to me, mine. I will have to leave it at that!

Here is a poem about women, the way they have traditionally been viewed in our part of the world especially.

Saiyo, nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

Pehle din meiN baap dee pagri
hassiyaa nachiyaa jo dig dig kardi
JisdE dignoN dardi nee meiN
DaRR DaRR, nachdi hasdi
Saiyo, nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

DoojE din meiN adh-aaNg paTi da
Adhi ho ho paalaaN dharam saTi da
Adhaapaan nibhaunE khaataaR
Nee meiN poori hono dardi
saiyo, nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

TeejE din meiN 'RaajE' janmaaN
Phir ohna dee parjaa ban-jaaN,
RaajE raaj karan mErE tE
JiveN ohna di marzi
Saiyo nee, meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

ChauthE din meiN khed khidaaveeN
PotiyaaN, dotiyaaN dee parchaavee
Bas iyoN apni khed mukaaVaaN
Khed horaaN layi baandi
Saiyo nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

............... I've often heard men say to their partners, well what do you want I have given you your freedom, I LET you do what you want, and it would make me laugh if it wasn't so downright ridiculous. Who gave them the right to take to decide whether you should have your own freedom or not! Beats me folks!

Bali, I could not listen to your show yesterday. I wonder what song did you play? May I know it?

Imran, you are right about India, it does have a dismal record of its own, as to how women are treated in some parts. Law is not always put into practice. The law though must be a start, followed by education, and implementation. We have talked about extremes like Sati, dowry and honour killings, rape...yet on a daily level ask a woman who has been outcast from her community for simply deciding on how she wishes to live her OWN life, whether she be in India or Pakistan...their experience will be the same. ........I had written a whole paragraph here, but on reflection thought perhaps its going to be more than some people can take...so perhaps another time, or another forum.

Sameer, lao ji karlo gal...mainu te apne 6 sense de vich bahut vishwaas see, and I played a song just for you yesterday' Looks like I'm going to have to check the frequency. :-))

I'll agree that Punjabi's need to change in terms of the way we view women, as do most communities in South Asia. Lekin to blame everything on Punjabi culture is really short-sighted. I suppose its Punjabis that supressing women in Saudi Arabia too. We all know how well the Arabs treat their women. Please don't anyone come back with the weak excuse that its all western propaganda. I do not wish to criticize anyone's faith. Yet I'm going to go out on a limb and say that all religions are man-made, none are flawless, none beyond reproach - where there are issues in faith that conflict with human rights we should address those and not simply pass the buck to culture. Most religions have not done enough to raise the status of women to an equal level in their scriptures and without pointing at anyone, some have written in black and white 'truth as told by God' that allow men to continue to subjugate women with the full backing of the scriptures.

The word 'pagan' is beginning to bug me. I recall about 8 years ago attending a six week taster course to philosophy and the week we spoke of God, some woman said 'our God' within a statement. I asked her to explain what she meant by 'our God'. She said I mean the Christian God, like you have your Pagan God, Muslims have their God, etc..... I informed her that she really needed to revisit her thoughts on this one and that as a Sikh I believe only in one God...the same God that every being prays to...

Whenever I hear the word pagan I start thinking of witches being burned at the stake etc...

I think in these changing times the dictionary needs to elaborate on the meaning of this word.

With reference to Bushra's post (hi, btw Bushra)

In which country are women who have been raped liable to be charged with adultery and stoned to death in punishment? If this is simply a cultural problem, that we can blame on pgans and Punjabi culture, why is it not happening in East Punjab? Yes East Punjab has its own problems with female-foetus abortion etc...

My point is the blame lies sometimes with culture but religion is not always blameless. Be brave and take an honest look, without being defensive.

Sameer,

Without being vindictive, self-centered, and what not, I would politely point out that the norm is to compare apples with apples and not oranges. Comparing Indo-Pak subcontinent with Sweeden in especially violence against women is simply defying the norm. Bushra is wrong in saying that India is any better off in this respect. She just needs to reflect upon evil customs like dowry and selective abortions. Laws exist only on books and unless they are strictly enforced they are worth squat. As far as women's rights are concerned, I think, women find men masquerading as women rights activist quite amusing even repulsive to some extent. To them, all of us will always be "pigs" at one level or another. Ask one any day!

Now, when you use derogatory terms like "Muttaraf", you are letting your ethnic prejudices and biases take over which render your “introspection” anything but an objective analysis. Musharraf's firing the "heavy mandate" (which we have now found out was more courtesy ISI's manipulating elections than genuine popularity of blue eyed boy aka Nawaz of martial law regime of zia!) was totally justified and many people were just happy to get rid of him. I am glad that Musharraf is taking all the precautions regarding his security now primarily due to Al-Qaida. He was very laid back in the beginning. That doesn't mean that I support each and every step of his in clinging to power though. I don't believe one man fix all of our problems. He is no Ata-Turk, he just deluging himself and the public.

Regards

Similarly if Musharraf's community is better in respecting women, perhaps Sweedish Prime Minister's community is much better than Musharraf's. The sad fact is than not just Punjab, Pakistan or India but most of the world does not give equally respectful status to women.

There is no point to jump on Bushra Khan or anybody else for talking about status of women in Pakistan with immediately adding India to the list or comparing it with India. What she did or I do frequently is called introspectioin and it is different than criticism. The criticism is open ended and it does not have to stop at India. It can include any country, any culture from anywhere on the earth or even Martians. Pakistanis are better than Indians at introspection; Indians are much more defensive of India. It is upto indivduals of Indian origin to introspect about India without feeling a sigh of relief through comparison with Pakistani situation. Same is true for individuals of Pakistani origin.

Vajpai is not my concern in introspection, Musharraf certainly is. Pakistan is where most of my family and friends live and that is why, my focus is exclusively Pakistan. Here is a person who grabbed power through back door without justification (Prime Minister had the right to fire COAS, it may be stupid move but certainly not illegal), totally rejected by people in referendum, bent on hanging on to power as long as possible with unilaterally amending constitution, and scared to death to travel anywhere in Pakistan. His travel plans are kept tightly secret and security preparations start month in advance even if it is a travel from Islamabad to Lahore. Whole city remains under virtual curfew as long as he is in the city. It has nothing to do with fear from Indians at the border, he is scared of Pakistanis. From that standpoint, Vajpai does not count in this introspective discussion no matter how much I dislike Vajpai.

Since this site is focussed on Punjabi culture, criticism is much less important than introspection. DullaBhatti has introspected once when talking about the current Punjab government and Punjabi language. I just hope than Punjabis from India are more forthcoming when it comes to introspection. I think introspection helps fine tuning opinion and idea and looking at the issue nore rationally.

Kee khyal ae Bali, how about little introspection from you about women status in Punjab or India? Okay, I will listen to your show on Monday for first half hour, for sure.

Dr. Zaki,

I am not hurt at all. I was just pointing out that we are on the same page vis-a-vis propensity of miscreants in abusing Islamic laws which sloely rely on eye witness account. In a society like Pakistan it's not hard to buy four "pious" witnesses and damn somebody to stonning to death just to settle personal scores. As you rightly pointed out there are numerous unfortunate victims of "Hudood Ordinance" and "blasphemy law" confined to the gallows.

The precise word would have been difficult verbage. Yes, Noon Meem Rashid, as you rightly pointed out, was the most modernist of poets who dared to challange established norms of poetry by devising "azad shaaery". His times were when poetry was still heavily persianised. Besides, I believe he spent quite a bit of times in Iran as a diplomat that definitely had influences on his work. And splendid it is. I simply marvel at his beautiful imagination expressed in equally beautiful terms.

Regards

Noon Meem Rashid was one of the most modernist poets in Urdu poetry. The many idioms, similes and symbols he used in his poetry did not belong to the local culture. I am not saying it is incorrect to borrow them from other cultures. But sometimes it becomes very difficult to decipher, decode and translate them to fit into the local socio-cultural environment. As they are developed in a specific cultural context they have specific references and meanings. Moreover, to decipher poetic symbols of higher abstract level one requires a deep understanding of the socio-cultural milieu surrounding the poet itself and in general. It is sociological impossible for a sensitive person (like a poet and other persons involved in other arts) not be affected by what is happening in his/her social surroundings. But then each reader (Or a group of readers with commonality of social thoughts) may have a different interpretation depending on his/her personal and social leanings. I would like to refer here the debate on "Sufism", which we had few weeks ago. Some people emphasized their social role (and their poetry) to be strictly interpreted in the realm of religion. Others leaned more on the idea to take them as "Prophets of peace and brotherhood." Anyways, their language, their craftsmanship and symbols they used mainly stemmed from the local social surroundings. So, people were able to easily relate to them. The multiple interpretation of their poetry in particular can suffice be appreciated to reflect "aafaqiat", as their message was, although in different context. For example, "Kafi", a very common form of Punjabi poetry particularly among Punjabi classical poets traditionally has been described to invoke religious message. But some fresh realizations have incited many modernist Punjabi literary critics to give new meanings. In common with that many Punjabi poets (including myself) are trying to infuse new messages while keeping the classical form and craftsmanship of Kafi. Some modernist Punjabi poets have even experimented to reform the classical form and craftsmanship of Kafi.

Sham,

I don't what the hell Shamm stand for. So, I might have jumped the gun earlier. Just in case, if thy are a female; I would retort your query as - damn girl you are so ugly, I feel like turning gay at the sight of you. hahaha...

Bushra Bibi,

I agree with most of the remarks of Najam Sethi. I was merely replying to Shikra Ji's post on factual basis. Anyway, I think, and again that's my own opinion, Musharraf has made some progress, at least, on women's participation (in decision making) front. I believe, he has increased women seats in the assemblies and a lot of women contested and won local bodies elections as well. Now, as far as grass roots change vis-a-vis attitude of society toward women's rights is concerned that can only be realized by the change of mindset which is going to take time. Musharraf doesn't have a magic wand to bring that about. Women in Musharraf's own community are amply empowered due to high literacy rate and civilised values, it's proud (pun intneded) Punjabi and other native communities that are blott on Pakistan's human rights record due to their backward mindset regarding women. I betterstop, lest I be labelled chavunist for exposing hypocracies.

Best Regards

Dr. Zaki,

You are putting your words in my mouth. Nowhere, I have condoned laws like "Hudood Ordinance" or encouraged discrimination against women in the name of Islam or culture. I vehemently oppose both - cultural and religious. I would reiterate that I prefer manmade laws due to changed dynamics of societies. You cannot enforce Islamic laws in societies that are lacking pre-requisites. My only problem is when buffoons start attacking religion for all the wrong reasons.

I never found Shiv Kumar Batalvi worth reading. That's my prerogative. Besides, a poet has to have substance (beauty of thought) and not just flaunt his/her vocabulary. That's my impression of SKB. I admire Poets like Ghalib and Noon Meem Rashid who while using difficult idioms compel you to make an effort to go an extra mile by the sheer force of the beauty of their imagination. Nationalist fervor has nothing to do with my passing up on SKB. Just because somebody writes in a particular language doesn’t make it mandatory for the all the speakers to like him or her.

Regards

THE LAW OF EVIDENCE AND “HADOOD ORDINANCE”: We know, according to the law of evidence, a woman’s evidence is not permissible in a “shaaria” court of Pakistan even if a woman is highly qualified. The law is based on one particular ayah in Sura Al-Nisa, which concerns with business transaction involving a woman. The implementation of this law produced horrible implications for many women who were sexually abused. There were cases when few women who have been raped by men (sometimes very close relatives) when approached the court for justice, in fact were sentenced. These women were asked to produce four “practicing, pious Muslims” as evidence who should have witnessed the raping event, having had happened with their own eyes. A woman’s own account of raping event and identification of the culprit was not deemed admissible. But as she accepted that event to have happened (in a couple cases, it was obvious through their having had became pregnant), under a sub-law of “Hadood Ordinance” (I think it is called ‘Taqseer”), she/they was/were sentenced to be lashed. There are thousands of women in Pakistani jails having being implicated wrongly but under this law. It is simply impossible to convict any culprit of rape according to this law. We must bear in mind that rapists are usually men.
There are some other religious laws in the domain of marriage institution which as interpreted by religious extremists would appear gender discriminatory, such as ‘Permission of “Wali’ for a women to get married. To seek divorce, a woman can invoke “Khulla” only which means that she has to prove that his husband is in un-Islamic way. The violence against her may not be a sufficient source of divorce plea as the orthodox religious bigots wrongly translate an ayah from Quran that the beating of wife is permissible.

To enjoy a poet of higher caliber (like Shiv Batalvi) you need to be in appropriate state of poetic mind and to be free of all reservations, particularly religious and national chauvinism.

Shikra Ji,

Pakistan hasn't become the land of pure yet, as its inhabitants have kept their Pagan ancestoral traditions depsite accepting Islam on the surface. Not long ago, they used to "satti" women, now they marry them to Quran. what say you?

Regards

In which country are women who have been raped liable to be charged with adultery and stoned to death in punishment?

In which country are women liable to be publicly gang raped on the orders of “democratic” village community organizations like jirgas and panchayats in revenge for alleged crimes committed by male members of their families and clans?

In which country are young girls criminally assaulted by deranged, perverted or powerful individuals as a matter of routine and condemned to live a “shameful” lie in silence?

In which country are women killed to avenge the perceived “honour” of their male relatives, tribes, clans, village elders, and influential families even though they may not have committed any crime?

In which country are women defaced and deformed by frustrated, “acid throwing” maniacs?

In which country are women burnt alive in “stove explosions” engineered by enraged in laws, husbands, brothers and fathers?

In which country do judges clutch at medieval notions of dishonour, inequality, piety and even religiosity to punish and demean women?

In which country are state and society predisposed against women?

If the answers are shameful and embarrassing, we should do something about it. If it is hurtful to see the foreign media washing our filthy linen in public, we should put an end to our dirty practices. If we are appalled by such brutality, we should protest vehemently. If we are aghast at such injustice, we should institutionalize punishments for crimes against women. If our laws are misplaced or discriminatory, we should change them.

No Pakistan will be an acceptable alternative to a subservient to India Pakistan...

The current impasse cannot be allowed to continue for extended period of time. India's strategy is to bleed Pakistan's economy white by sitting idle close to its border. Pakistan should counter it by raising the tension levels to an unacceptably high levels through whatever measures, so that Indian economy bleeds too by cancellation of export orders and scaring away of foreign investors.

Sooner or later it will become untenable for India to sit idly on the border. It will either have to attack us or pull back its troops to peacetime positions. So there should be persistent cross-border infiltrations, covert provocative activity in the mainland India, and what have you to keep pressure on Vajpayee and co.

Khalid Hasan

Saadat Hasan Manto been alive, he would have written a story about Shahnaz Kausar as moving as his immortal tale about Bishen Singh, the mysterious resident of the Lahore lunatic asylum, who wanted neither to live in Pakistan nor India but Toba Tek Singh, the town where he was born and where he had grown up.

I am merely a journalist and can only tell in plain words the story of this young woman, a single mother with a small child, whom the Indians prefer to keep in jail and the Pakistanis, her countrymen, out of their land that also happens to be hers. I am indebted to my friend, the Indian journalist Mannika Chopra who learnt about Shahnaz Kausar during a recent visit to Jammu and wrote about her in the American newspaper, “Boston Globe”, recently. Truth is not only stranger than fiction but often more moving than fiction. Here is Shahnaz Kausar’s story.

She told Mannika, whose family incidentally comes from what is now our bit of the Punjab, that it took her no longer than a heartbeat to decide to end her life by jumping into the river, a tributary of the Jhehlum, because she could no longer take her husband’s family’s constant taunts about her infertility. So on a sunny October morning in 1995, she walked towards the river from her village of Haryan da Bagh, tehsil Sumani in district Mirpur, Azad Kashmir, and jumped in.

“Before I jumped in the river, I said to it, ‘Please kill me’. If I had died that would have been easier. My life would have been over. Now I feel that I am being punished for wanting to kill myself, which in Islam is considered to be a sin,” she told Mannika.

Shahnaz did not die. She floated down the tributary which took her into the Indian part of Kashmir where she was fished out by a border guard in the Rajouri district of Jammu. She told the guard that she was from Pakistan but she wasn’t a spy. After spending a few days in a rural hospital, she was produced before a magistrate who sentenced her to a year in prison for having entered the country “illegally”without a passport or visa. She was also fined a couple of hundred rupees, money that she did not, of course, have. In line with the majesty of law, as interpreted by courts in India and Pakistan, her term, therefore, was extended by three months. She was moved to a jail in Poonch where in January 1996, she was raped by a warden.

She told Mannika, “When it was happening, I didn’t want to scream for help, because I thought the warden might kill me. And then I thought that even if I shouted, perhaps being a Pakistani, nobody would come.” She did later summon the courage to complain to the warden’s seniors as to what had happened and the rapist was suspended from his post. It was said he would be tried but there is no evidence he was. And then a strange thing happened. Shahnaz found that she was pregnant. She was offered an abortion which she refused. She gave birth to a girl child she named Mobin which means clear, distinct and bright. “The best memory of my life is connected to its saddest event. It was the worst possible way to have a child, but I felt fulfilled at the same time,” she told Mannika.

Shahnaz served out her sentence but no one told her that she was now free. How word of her predicament got out is not clear, but an Indian NGO, the World Human Rights Protection Council, found her a lawyer, the Jammu-based A. K. Sawhney, but he was unable to secure her release. She was transferred to Jammu jail where she has been held since. In Agust 2000, fresh charges were filed against her under the Indian Public Safety Act. She was tried one more time and sentenced to another two years in prison.
Her lawyer said the Public Safety Act charge was laughable because it implied that she was connected with the Kashmir militancy. He wrote several times to the Indian External Affairs ministry in New Delhi about Shahnaz’s plight but there was no response, while the Pakistan High Commission, as was to be expected, to whom he also wrote, replied that it could not comment “until it had reviewed the matter further.” So from a woman with a small child who was being unjustly held, she had become a “matter” that had to be “reviewed further.” An official told Mannika that in the past year, the Indian authorities had made three attempts to send Shahnaz back but each time she had been turned back at Wagha because her daughter Mobin was an “Indian citizen.”
And why was she being kept in jail? Because she was a Pakistani citizen without valid papers who could not be sent to a home for those with nowhere to go. S. S. Ani, an Indian official, told Mannika, “It is not an ideal situation for her, but under the circumstances, it is the only option.” While her husband has refused to even acknowledge that Shahnaz ever existed, one of her brothers who works in Saudi Arabia has petitioned the Pakistan embassy there several times but without luck. The former ISI chief who represents the Islamic Republic in the Kingdom has obviously more important things to do, such as writing inane articles in newspapers.
Meanwhile, little Mobin who was born in captivity and has never seen the outside of a jail is escorted to a local school by a policeman whom she calls “Policeman uncle”. When the day is done, he brings her back. Mobin is a bright child and can sing the entire English alphabet. “She will be the only one among her cousins who would know English,” her mother says proudly. When General Musharraf went to Agra, in the first flush of what looked like détente, an immediate exchange of prisoners was arranged. Shahnaz and Mobin were among the six chosen to be returned. However, when their turn came, the Pakistani border guards said that while they were willing to take the mother, who was a Pakistani citizen, they could not take Mobin because her father was an Indian.
Like Kashmir, the fate of Shahnaz Kausar and little Mobin who can sing the entire English alphabet, remains unresolved.

Sameer,

First of all, "taali dono hathooN si bajti hai"; Vajpayee and co. has demonstrated no rationality either by piling a million on our borders. Musharraf may not be a "rational" person, but it's his restraint that his averted war so far. If he was indeed "mischievous", then there would have already been war and we would be done over mourning charred bodies of millions of South Asians, already. You have to give him credit for that.

Culpability of Nawaz is no less than Musharraf in Kargil episode. Musharraf might have drafted the incursion plan, but it was "Kashmiri" Nawaz who approved it. It's Benazir and Nawaz who are squarely to be blamed for disastrous Kashmir and Afghan policy. Kashmir had been on back burner even during a decade long Zia's rule. It was Benazir who revived a dormant issue and made "freedom" of Kashmir center of her foreign policy.

No sane person would wish a war. But, if Indian do not pack up their bags and leave our borders soon, then Pakistan shouldn’t hesitate in launching a pre-emptive strike regardless of the consequences. Pakistanis will support Musharraf regardless of the outcome.

Regards

As Prof. Kalon said that threat of nuclear war was very small but given the consequences and past stupidities of our rulers - including misadventure by Muttarraf for the sole purpose of derailing Lahore peace initiative and bringing down the increasing power of civilian elected leadership at the expense of military-bureaucratic hegemony - anything is expected. The thirst for power of this man can lead to any and many illogical steps. In current environlent it is even more important to devise strategies to counter the war mongering and irrational Muttaraf and his coaterie.

Wihtout denying my love for Punjabyat, the by-product in the form of peace through better understanding and friendliness among Punjabis has always been a factor in most of what I write. A better understanding among 100+ million Punjabis will go long way in easing tensions for over a billion souls of South Asia.

Yes it can happen and without denying corruption and feudalissm in Pakistani politicians, we were on the right track. The forces of status quo, hostilities - the military establsihment and bureaucracy were losing their grip on the important affairs of Pakistan. The strengthening of democratic institutions and the power of civilian elected representatives would have made changes from top down towards peaceful South Asia. The equation for corrupt and feudal loaded parliamentarians was simple. They had to offer to their constituency a better living for their bid for relelection. A better living for average Pakistani is just impossible without bringing down exceptionally high level of military spending which leaves nothing for development programs. So, a democratic, independent, powerful and enlightened leadrship is most important and Punjabis trying to ease tensions through better uderstanding and finding common causes next to most important one.

Believe me, interacting here is not for fun; I have definite motives as I have outlined above. This is not a hobby or trying to gain some minor recognition from a handful of people. The future of South Asia depends on the level of understanding between Punjabis in general and their leaderships in particular. It may sound a wishful thinking but it is not. That is why, I support those Punjabis in Pakistan who are independent minded and sensible enough not to be stooges of military-bureaucratic allaince. I do not care if PPP or PML (n) wins but chamcha league and NA should be defeated.

Regards

Farhat Abbas Shah is awsome too. His poetry leave very little to imagination - "direct hit", a hallmark of Punjabi poetry. I have read "Dil De Hath Mohar" on this forum and got the book. I think, some poets just click with you. I had to abandon Shiv Kumar Batalvi on the first poem that I read on this site. I am sure, he is good for those who connect with him. I just couldn't.

I don't spend much time near a computer these days, but rushing out in the morning I quickly stop into check whats going on at APNA forum. Speaking of Sufi's, mauj lagee payi a es vaqt, roj kaliaaN baithaal ki Salim te UStad ji hona koloN mann pasand diyaaN kalaamaaN sundi a, ene pyaare ne ki kade vee kehna nahi taaldE! Te ohna diyaaN gallaN sunke te enaa mazaa aunda, inj lagda jiveN meiN Punjab hee paunchi hoyi-aN. Once they are gone I will be sure to share all the gems I'm collecting. :-))

Sameer,

Disagreements shouldn't stop us from discussing issues. But, I agree we should stop for the benefit of readers in general who might not find these sakeel topics of much interest. So, I will ceasefire henceforth.:)

It's kind of strange, but I like Amrita Preetam more. She rocks! I simply do not get Shiv Kumar Batalvi for some reason. To me Munir Niazi is Ghalib of Punjabi poetry. Never been inclined toward "Sufi" poetry.

Regards

Sameer,

Sikhs' retaining their Punjabi identity has more to do with their religion than anything else. Punjabi is the language of their scripture and the true Sikhs will retain it no matter where they go.

By the way, Central Asians lost their identity too, when they moved to the plains of Punjab. Losing one identity and acquiring another is a normal process and part and parcel of human existence. There is nothing to be concerned about it just as there's nothing to be proud about ethnic identities. Nothing lasts forever!

Regards

There is no "social mobility" in the abominable caste system. You remained confined to the caste you were born in. In olden days (and to some extent even today), it blocked access to production resources on the basis of supposed "genetic inferiority" depriving the society of talents that could have otherwise contributed toward its economic betterment and spiritual enlightenment. I can understand the conscious efforts on the part of few here in justifying castecism, but the fact remains that it has nothing to do with the concepts of “social mobility” and "specialization".

Something occured to me that I did not address

After I submitted my brief bye bye note, I suddenly felt something. It just struck me that if this forum is well routed on discussing an issue, the participants can assist in even suggesting measures for the improvement of the society. In other words, as a vocal crictic in the past, I just felt immense energy, alertness and devotion emitting from this forum in addressing the problem and recommending solutions. This was beautiful!!! It was very nice and kind and sweet!

Also, the level of poets and their poetry is becoming superb. I think APNA should have a repository for fil'badee poems. Just a suggestion! Even some of the new discoveries are impressive :)

Javed Zaki: This is for you. I am not an authority on a subject, but I feel that you do justice to your emotions and feelings in verses than in words. Often times when you come up with your analysis, you are too distant and do not come across as if you are addressing human issues. Your words appear as if they are being penned for a thesis that will be graded for its discoveries and contents than conveying the compassion and emotions. I did not need to delve into so much detail, but I do realize I have not been very responsive to your previous posts and there was something that was bothering me there and I could not point it out. Now, I could. So, here was my little rationale :). Hope you will read that in a constructive stride. On another note, that can be the maturity of expression. I am not sure. It can be.

Bushra: Mujhae last remark sumujh main naheen aya. What was unreserved in that? I did not get it. I never plan to write on a subject/topic. I often write in the heat of the moment; and that's it. On the other end, you have addressed quite a few details which are worth questioning, but due to the unfair treatments right and left they were not addressed. Your perspective on individualism strikes a chord. I always find that a rude awakening for people from our origin. Good Points!

Some others have gone into the psyche of Gujjars and their aba'o'ajdaad. Point is, when you have human rights' issues at hand, raising this aspect is absurd. Indeed, it was a good history lesson, but this should not happen in an islamic country. Whether we are on and off the track that's another thing. When you mix practices from culture, religion, dayaan, bayaan, ooper, neechae...there is no law...it's anarchy. But then some participants are obligated to educate many of us on the family trees of various castes in Pakistan. And that is a very interesting as well as informative route. Somehow, that should not be part of any of our policies for justice and decision making. That's my point.

My guess is that in the past a community surpassing in economic terms from rest without political power was almost absent (except Pheonicians). Now German, Japanese, Indians, Chinese, Jews and Parsis have produced successful communnities in different parts of the world without political power. Were there any successful tribes or off-shoots in Punjab who performed better than average and helped themselves in elevating caste or social status?

UmraaN touN haaN pardesi

AakhhiyaaN wich Aathroo
BulliaN uttay haaNwaaN
YadaaN naiN kay ChaRhiaN
Sawan dee ghataNwaaN
LungiaN HoyaaN gahRiaN
KeywaiN dil touN bhulaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN

NaaN raah koee sujh di aay
NaaN souch pay rujh di aay
NaaN dil payaa mann da aay
Naa taang pay bujh di aay
NaaN dil parchaawan di
Koee khoj pay khhujh di aay
Door diyaaN kundaaN naiN
MaiN kiss tarha dhaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN

SajnaaN diyaaN gundaaN sun
Rishtay diyaaN pundaaN sun
MetthiaN jevaiN khhandaaN sun
SeenaiN diyaaN tthandaaN sun
JanouN wee tay kinnay sun
MabbtaaN diyaaN wandaaN sun
Bujhdi hoee laataaN di
KeywaiN jott jagaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN

Apna tay oohi gahr way
SouchaaN da oo mahwar way
YadaaN da samundar way
Kee hunn jay oo khhundar way
DehgiyaaN hoyaaN kundaaN naiN
Tuttayaa hoyaa her dar way
UjRay hoay maazi nouN
KeywaiN muR kay wasaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN

Sameer,

I agree, the topic under discussion may not be of particular interest to majority of the readers. But then again, I have found this forum to be lacking participation in general. There are very few individuals who care to write here. Most of the times it's "fyis" regarding Punjabi entertainment aspect targetted at select audience. Anyway, in order to avoid religious debate, certain patients who seem to be inflicted with "auto immune" disease will have to stop bashing a particular religion.

Regards

In the gang-rape episode, notice the victim belongs to a lower order tribe, called Gujjar. This was a news to me. However, based on little knowledge it is not unexpected or surprising. Gujjars are generally believed to have originated from an earlier Scythian migration of a turkic-western Asian tribe, called Khazars, from areas around modern day lower Ukrain or Kerimia. Interstingly one of the branch of Khazars converted to Judaism around 11-12th century and migrated westward to Russia, Poland and Germany. According to Arnold Koestler (in his famous book, "The Thirteenth Tribs"), most of the Askenazi Jews are descendants of Khazar converts.

Anyway, Scythian Khazars came to India through Afghanistan before later Scythian and Huns migrations giving rise to Jat and Rajput tribes. Once Khazars or later called Gujjars (although some believe the word Gujjar came from Gao meaning cattle and char meanig herding) ruled most of northwest India from their capital around modern day Peshawar (NWFP) under the name of Kushan dynasty producing the second famous Buddhist (Ashoka being the first) ruler named Kanishk or Kanishka. Places like Hazara (originally Khazara), Gujrat, Gujranwala and Gojra suggest that not only these were Gujjar settlements but that Gujjars were not considered low caste in these areas. Actually moving from north to south from Swat, Dir in the northern Pakistan to Hazara to Punjab and down to Meerwala where the gang-rape incident happened, the status of Gujjars starts declining as one moves away from their once capital, Peshawar. Almost in the middle, in the city of Gujrat, they have reasonable clout against jats. Further south their status declines.

Remember in a recent discussion about caste system in Punjab, I opined in favor of weaker or fluid caste system prevailing by the time Muslims arrived on the scene. Gujjars were accommodated differently at different places according to their strength, like every other tribe. There was no rigid caste system to give Gujjats same upper or lower caste status all across northwestern India. Tribes fought their way to achieve higher caste, often through forging alliance. Punjab politics is still being played through alliances of various tribes.

By the way, Gujjars in Punjab are generally considered the third or fourth largest tribe behind Jats, Rajputs and sometimes before or after AraiNs.

Sameer,

Thanks for clarifying that. I am glad that you agree on faraiz part. They are integral part of Islam and you cannot have one without the other. Now as far as some of the peripheral issues are concerned like growing beard etc., there is indeed choice there. You are not obligated to follow them. Actually, that's sort of a far cry considering that nobody can force down even faraiz down your throat. There is no compulsion in religion. Less said about so-called "Islamists" and "Jihadis" the better.

I would disagree with your assertion that practicing "nahi an'il munkir brought down WTC". How can a band of Munkirs (suicide bombers and their abettors) practice a concept like nahi an'il munkir. Personal grudges, lust for power, and down right evil brought down WTC.

Also a Muslim cannot and shouldn't have personal or private reservations about praying, fasting, and giving alms. And if one does, well, then assi us bhainR bhra waste dua ae kar sakde waaN. Maula ee onhaaN te rehm farmawe. The part of me says that they would be better off with other countless religious ideologies that lack the deen part or perhaps ethieism would be a more fit for their tastes.

My personal preference is man-made laws, because, implementation of Islamic laws has pre-requisites which are lacking in today’s societies due to changed dynamics. In modern societies where marriages are delayed due to societal pressures like pressure to succeed in a career, lack of financial security etc. you really cannot apply "Hudood laws". While Islam prescribes strict punishments, which are more of detterent then anything else, it does so by taking bodily needs of humans into account. Top that off with lack of Khuf-e-Khuda amongst abusers of these laws and it would be better if these weren't applied in the present state. I hope, I am making sense.

Regards

This was the gist of Bushra Khan's post and my follow up. The belief part of faith as well as praying, fasting, giving alms etc were not challenged by her or by me although we may have personal/ private reservations about practices. The praying and fasting does not bring down WTC Towers, practicing nahi an'il munkir did.

Cultures evolve under various, geographical, social, political and economical realities. Sometime marketing-propaganda-promotions-commercialism helps as it is helping western culture lately - becoming fashionable. Islam has a free hand in mostly Islmaic socities like Pakistan and with it comes deen part. Since deen influences practical life, it is subject to rational and logical analysis. Similarly the gangrape and stoning to death cases represent bad practical side of culture and deen and must be dealt with absolute unbiased rationality. I detest them whether they are part of Punjabi or Balochi culture or any deen.

Nothing is eternally good or bad. History is full of examples of things starting bad and becoming good as well as starting-good-turning-bad. The dynamics with respect to time and place demand constant scrutinizing processes for all areas effecting human life. Humans have the potential to turn a good into bad and vice versa. However if bad is not considered bad for whatever reasons, the chances of turning it into good diminsh. We can not slove a problem without first accepting it a problem.

Saeed Farani

You asked am I from Mecca? I consider the planet earth my home and Mecca is not on Mars, last time I checked. I don't take false pride in regional and tribal indentities. Nobody ever answered a genuine question raised by another writer: what is there to be proud of?

Not all Arabs are civilised just as not all sub-continentals are animals (though, majority of us seem to be falling in this category). I have nothing but pleasent experiences with Arabs from my interaction with them in School here in the US. I found them to be no less civilised than an American. They never adressed me without prefixing our names with brother and were always cordial toward Pakistani students.

Regards

Sameer,

It's about time government brought religious schools into mainstream by providing them funds and regulating them instead of charity "oil money" that's been flowing in often with strings attached. I am not sure if they can be subjected to taxation, as they donot generate any revenues. There will always be people who would like their childern to have religious education. I think it's only fair that they should be given an opportunity to impart whatever education they choose for their childern. Religious schools exist all over the world and even in the US a lot of parents prefer sending their childern to religious schools. The recent decision of the GOP to mandate secular curriculum is a step in the right direction and was overdue. Now the childern will have an option of joining mainstream job market if they wish so.

Our views on culture vs. religion will never converge. I beleive, the spirtual part of Islam is meaningless without the "faraiz". It has mandated certain rituals, if you will, that must be performed and certain things that must be avoided. If we lack the faraiz part, there is nothing to be proud of and we should try to mend our ways. Also, I beleive the cultrual practices that come into conflict with the religion must be bid farewell. There is nothing Arab about Namaz, Roza, Haj, Zakat etc. They would still have been the same had the holy prophet (pbuh) been from our part of the world.

I don't consider myself thekedar of Islam, as I am myself lacking in practise part, unfortunately. But, I try to interject whenever I see mischief on the part of individuals who might have rediscovered their pagan roots, which is fine. But they should leave Islam alone and revert back to their ancestors' religion. That way they would be at peace with themselves and those of us who want to follow Islam with all it's "faults" will be too. There is no compulsion in religion.

Americans didn't blame Islam for the tragedy of "911". I think certain individuals on this forum could learn from this...

Doojee gal eh key tusi koi nau ghaintey agge ho. Jais vailee tusi post karde ho, issi sarey suttey honde aan te agle din shaam kum to wapus aan tak tuhade comments pichche reh jande naiN.

Okay what is your take on Musharraf? Jaan chaddhe ga keh naheeN? Benazir has met Nawaz Sharif in Jeddah. do you think BB will win next elections, if held and held fairly?

Imran: Pakistani government yesterday announced 2.15 billion rupees for madrassahs. What are we getting out of it? Isn't madrassah a private business subject to reporting income and paying tax? Second point is that both Islam and culture are too big words to blame anything or given credit. One has to break them down as reductionism or deductionism to analyse their impact. Both of these have several components. For religion, spiritual must be analyzed separately than practical often referred as deen. The sub-components of deen part are the ones some people object to because many of these Islamic laws and traditions are later additions, extrapolations, guess work, bias in favor of nomadic Arab culture and so on. I believe Quran asks hundreds of times about prayers and how often it asks about alcohol consumption, stoning to death and so on? All aspects of deen are not equally important, and their practicality must be judged on the basis of practical considerations. The much more important spiritual aspects are to be judged on spiritual basis. This is just my opinion. The passion for defending religion must be proportional to the importance of the case. Why spend 10,000 dollars to defend a traffic violation ticket? But there are people who would get very angry by just noticing you eating with left hand? Similarly without exonerating culprits at all, the Muslim response to the destruction of a run down and locked-for-years mosque was disproportional. Relgious sensivities is one thing and wearing it on sleeves another. The spiritual part of religion is acceptable as above culture but cultural part of deen has to compete against indigenous culture. Personally I put Punjabi above nomadic Arab culture. Not that I am disrespectful of that or any other culture, it is simply accepting the cards nature has dealt to me - being born into Punjabi culture.

Saeed Farani,

I would reiterate my stance that it's rotten sub-continental mindset and not the Islam that's resonsible for the mess we are in. Otherwise, Islam touches billion of lives in a positive manner daily. Lay the blame where it belongs - rotten sub-continental mindset that's immune to it's positive teachings.

Now, what is "theocratic" about Pakistani education system, general zia's gimmicks of making Islamiyat lazmi not withstanding? Is it Islam's fault too that our secular education system is producing corrupt individuals in every walk of life? Last time I checked, fraction of Medrassah educated are not yet qualified to hold mainstream jobs. Please elaborate.

Regards

Maqbool, keep talking man...we address to every post here..that does not mean people hate you. It is just the way forum is. Don't give up so easily.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_2089000/2089624.stm

MTM,

Fully agree with you. And also, women need to some introspection and accept their responsibility. It's often women who discriminate against their own kind.

Dr. Zaki,

If we, the Pakistanis, had learned to analyse thing objectively, then we wouldn't be in such a mess that we find ourselves in. I respect Bushar's point of view, but I think she is unneccessarily attacking Islam. Islam has nothing to do rotten customs of not too long ago a Pagan sub-continental society. There are countless women even in the so-called emanicipated societies like Turkey who seek refuge in Islam and wouldn't want any other way. Wannabe feminists need to respect their point of view while demanding their rights.

Regards

.......SadhraaN Da Mull BharsaaN.......

Munn mansoor theye mera loko
AkhaaN raNgle sufne
Bukkal bhar bhar taa sooraj da
Malna apne jusse
Ratt aNg sarir na busse

SadhraaN da mull bharsaaN bhaNviN
Tapp vaile da loohe
Ander wassooN sehra thive
Zehr kaRhe bhaNviN roohe
JiNd kalboot da saanga tutte
Sulgan baariaaN boohe
DhooR udde tann joohe
...SadhraaN da mull bharsaaN loko
...SadhraaN da mull bharsaaN

Another fact that's being overlooked is: according to some reports, the woman that her brother was "caught" was some 30 years old. If that's the case then, this child abuse and should be treated as such, as the boy is a minor. No consentious sex there.

Only because, in our society, in our religion – women, girls – are considered a property of a family. We have placed the burden of sharam and heya on them. We have designated them the role of a mother and a sister. Our ideal girl is the one who never raises her voice, shows no signs of any kind of independence from whatever a male dominated society and religion has decided for her. They have no independent identity as a person. They are the property of the whole Ummah. We keep them covered in purdah. Even when we need them to go out and work or study, we expect them to keep their heads and other attractive parts of their bodies covered. We do not allow them to mix with men or boys. Half of Islam’s criminal laws is designed to keep the men and women in separate circles in the society. Chaddar and Chaardeewari are our ideals. They are not just women. They are ‘our’ women from a man’s point of view. No one can look at them, no one can touch them. No one can dare to come close to them – without men’s permission who own them – their fathers, brothers husbands.

In a society based on this idea of men as owners and protectors of women – there will always be these problems – not always leading to a gang rape or honor killing – but lesser and different atrocities. Our lives, women’s live, in a society ruled by religious principles and as a result by men will always be a story full of atrocities, form birth to death. As long as women have a secondary role in society, one dominated by men, this will continue. This concept of sharam and heya is just a form of slavery – women are slaves of this concept – and live all their lives in fear for this. In all Islamic and other religiously society women are slaves of men. When they overstep – are caught with a boy – the who family, caste, tribe is put to shame. Then there is no limit to anger. In the old days, when Islamic society was more pure, the couple was put to death by stoning by their neighbors. Their crime is never their own shame. It is the shame of their families and extended families who own them and of the whole society of whole ummah.

Unless women get equal – I mean EQUAL – rights. Unless they have the same freedoms, the same status that men have – their problems cannot be solved. An outdated moral code, an outdated religious code, an outdated family code and outdated social laws are ruling women’s lives. We are shocked by the public humility of a girl – but trust me – majority of the girls in Islamic society have to bear thousands of humilities – big and small – all their lives. We all keep quite on these – because we have accepted it. We are only shocked by what makes headlines. As long as we will only and only accept women as sisters, mothers or daughters – and will not recognize them as individuals, and give them same individual right sand freedoms that are given to men – they will always be a problem for the society.

P.S. Zahra: I have talked about women in general in Islamic societies. There are always exceptions of educated liberal families and women. I was delighted by your unreserved anger. Bravo.

Imran Ji: I accept my mistake and will try to correct it. Thanks for reminding me of this.

Hereunder is a poem on another topic of concern. For everyone's reading:

MahNgayee Day Maray Log
Jeewan Kinj Wacharay Log
Tid NouN Kaj Kaj Haray Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

KenouN Jaa Kay Ke Ke Kahn
MuNh Chuk Chuk Kay Ronday Rayn
Koe Nai Sunda Aithay Wayn
Kis TouN Mungan KethouN Layn

Labday Phhiran Sahary Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

Lubda Nai Koe Kum Kissay NouN
Lub Safarish Thhum Kissay NouN
KhudkashiaN Pay Kar Kar Marday
Honda Nai Koe Ghum Kissay NouN

KakhhaaN TouN Nai Bharay Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

Kissay Day Koul Nai Lakh KaRoR
Kissay NouN Lagay Rahn MaRoR
Rabba Sub NouN Day Daynda TouN
Teray Koul See Kahdee ThhoR

MuNh Chuk Waykhann Taray Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

Sir Kajjan Tay Nangay Payr
Rabb TouN MaNgday Saray Khair
Oohi Karam Karay Tay Mukkay
Aay Dukh Dard Di Zard Dupayr

Dainday Roz Pukaray Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

MTM,

With all due respect, we can always find ample excuses for apathy. Yes, we are all hypocrites at some level. But, God has yet to design a perfect human being. I would rather focus on small successes than failures. The recent relase of the woman booked under "Hudood ordinance" speaks volume of what international pressures can contribute towards human rights.

I hate to put you on spot. But, would you kind enought of shed some light on your perspective of "Kammi". I have read this offensive word in your peotry to, which I happen to admire, poetry i.e. It pains me to come across such offensive word in the vocabulary of an elightened and sensitive individuals as yourself and that too a Muslim brother. Please explain!

Best Regards

Dullabhatti ji, I'm glad you enjoyed the show, I enjoyed their company emmensly after the show. Gursharan ji pata nahi tusi suneya hove jaaN nahi, lekin Ustaad ji ne towanu swagaat keeta see. I know of you will appreciate the enorminty of what I am going to tell you. Last week I wrote my first Punjabi kavta...Puranshah Koti sunde sunde ro paarE, and they asked me if I would allow them to sing it, and to record it. As you can imagine I am quite simply blown away. He is quite serious, he asked me for it again last night. Sameer ji towada dil na rakhaaN eh kiven ho sakdi E.

Chalo after getting in at 5am I can't write anymore, although after reading all the posts from yesterday, I share everyones pain.

MTM,

I would disagree with the notion that we cannot do anything. Overseas Pakistanis can make a difference by providing full support to those noble souls putting up a fight against gross injustices on hostile grounds. We are not that helpless in this interconnected world, as we might think. The GOP should be pressured to improve the enforcement of law and order in the country and make necessary amendments to protect the vulnerable of the society.

Will punishing the culprit’s stop these monstrosities from reoccurring? Perhaps not, but regardless, it’s the state's responsibility to ensure swift justice whenever transgressions of basic human rights like these take place. Otherwise, there is no need for a sham state where justice is applied on selective basis to exist. That said.

I think, women themselves have a central role in eradicating some of social ills that plague us. That role cannot be fulfilled by carrying a gun, but rather by mental conditioning of the young in the cradle to dispel wrong notions regarding “honor”, “revenge”, and male’s attitude toward tender gender rather than reinforcing discriminatory treatment and evil customs. This battle will have to be fought by all and sundry (family as a unit, church, and state!) if positive change is to place.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2002-daily/04-07-2002/oped/o5.htm

Main souchaaN wee tay mainu trail aa jaandi aay kay keyaiN maaN piyou naiN apni dhee nouN punchayat day kahn tay unna lokaaN day hawalay keeta howay ga. Wachargi tay baibasi de inteha howay gi. Aand Guand day loki tay dujay tejay sub ess gal tay kewaiN razi hoay hoon gay. Punchayatee wee keRay imtehan wichouN lagay houn gay. Ah gal koe aini sidi naiN jinni lagdi aay.

Aay darust aay kay kuRee hawalay ketee gaee lakin agar aay naa keta jaanda tay phair kee honda? Insaaf tay qanoon ainjh hi nazar nai aanday ohnay de gall karnee hi fazool aay.

zorAawaraaN di gall hi manni gaee. Aay kum onhaaN naiN kamiaN kolooN karwayaa howay ga jis di wajaa nall wadiaN ezztaaN walay bach jaan gay aur karindayaaN di phhaRaee ho jaaee gee. Qanoon wee khush tay qanoon nafaz karan walay wee. Asal tay waday mujramaaN nouN kujh naiN hona.

Aay saaraa qisa agar vekhayaa jayee tay 9-11 nall (bhaaNwaiN chhotay scale da way) kafi mulda way. gareebaaN tay kamzoraaN layee na munan di koe shakal nazar nai aaowndi.

Punjab diaaN lok kahaniaN wich wee ek qisa maharaja sir kaap da likhya hoya way. Dar kay loki onhi wee kuRiaN daan day dainday sunn.

Hun yaaN tay qanoon aur insaaf tagRa howay yaaN phair aadat paa lawoo muNh chhupaa kay rowan di…………aur maiN, maiN tay apnay hissay da roo liyaa jay……….baiwas hor kar wee kee sakday naiN…

JadouN Leer Dupataa Hoya Jay
Koe CheekaaN Mar Kay Roya Jay
MaiN Tay Baywas MuNh Chuk Vayna WaaN
MaithouN Kujh We Tay NaiN Hoya Jay

In Punjabi cities, we have traveling singers/ entertainers who share ride with public and have a harmonium or some other instrument. They usually sing popular poetry with nobody knowing who wrote them. They climb at one stop and get off after about half an hour performance and collecting some tips. I rememeber, quite often, someone rich or a zamindar traveling (in buses or trains) will really appreciate by giving hefty tip to these poor performers.

Now you and Imran stop making fun of Chemistry. Just look around and at yourself, everything is made up of chemicals. It is not Chemistry's fault if two of you did not do well in Chemistry; it must be your predestined destiny written in heavens some nanoseconds after the Big Bang..........hehe....

uTh ni dheeye suttiye, uTh ni aRhiye jaag.
uTh ni eddaN sutteyaN, kade na jaagan bhaag.

uTh Punjab di jammiye, tur kar uchi dhaun.
saddiaN langhiyaN sutteyaN, saddiaN lamba saun.

uTh ni Heeray bachiye, apna mool vikhaal.
Ranjhan, bailay, majhiaN: tere! haq jitaal.

PiraN, GuruaN, murshidaN si tainu ditta maan.
piyOvaN, veeraN, putraN, ajjay na kari pachhaan.

ajjay vi moyeiN jamm'di, looheiN maaN di kukh.
jamnoN pehloN, marn baad, pallay dukh hi dukh.

aap moyeiN tooN jamm'di, par mar mar jammeiN putt.
ni aisay jammein raakhshaN vekh machai lutt.

wich galliyaN de kookday, eh anakh de Thekedaar.
patt teri pai rull'di, galliyaN de wichkaar.

je teri kukhoN jammeyaN ne, injh kamaunay vairr.
hai jutti tainu samjhna, te pauna tainu pairr.

phir tooN vi kar kujh gauhr te, badl sameiN de rang.
eh aadam de putraN naal chhaiRh nawiN hi jang.

jamnoN pehlaN test kar, te je eh niklay putt.
aisay ganday khoon nu, naali de wich sutt.

......... MeiN aap rohi (cholistan) de ilaaqe vich kei saal gozaare hun. Oththe meiN Sadiq Egerton college- Bahawalpur tooN F.A. kita te wal Lahore waapas bhuj aaya. Par cholistan naal mera piyaar ghat naaN thiya te meiN summer di chhutyaaN vich waapas oththaaN puj weNda. GarmiyaaN di raatiN AssaaN kei sangti mil te cholistan ander treye treye chaar chaar koh waNde. Chandr diaaN rishmaaN ochche neeviN tibiaaN te lukkan miti khed diaaN, har shae da mukh roashan kreNdiaaN te akhiaaN kooN Thhaar pocheNdiaaN. KidaaiN duur botyaaN (oNThhaaN) di tiliaaN di jhan jhan, kidaaiN kise choti jehi basti vich kise Divay di thar'tharaaNdi lao, kise janne di khulli dhulli awaaz vich Khawaja Farid di mun mohni kaafi da bol. SangtiaaN de haase te chohlaaN te kise janor di traThhi cheek te bhoaNk. Kise sangti di Thuk tut te (ke) beh waNjan di faryaad. "Rub da naan je beh waNjo hun, meriaaN lattaaN tut wesan taaN wal baiso." Machch macha te (ke) apne dhaR de parchhaaN'viaaN nooN napena. Aakhir hassan jaam di baansri di miThhaRi taan de jaadoo neiN saariaaN kooN mad'hosh cha karenaaN. Kei mitraaN amberaaN tooN laththe sitaare akhiaaN vich noot te gahNtta gahNtta sum paina (sote rehna). "hadd thi gei yaar, du paiy wajeNde hun challooN hunn."

DB Ji,

I have somewhat similar experiences with my Chemistry professor to narrate. This fellow was on the interview panel (college admission in Islamabad) along with two other professors. Kafi akaR khan shehri babu si, te sone te sohaga Australia choon paRh ki aaya si.

I had overall good marks and was well above merit. But Chemistry meri zara patli si te mere marks ohnu kuchh ziada pasand nai aye. Besides, I believe he discounted me due to my rural schooling background. My appearences were always Urban. PentaaN paunR da mainu vi baRa shauq si.:) Anyway, luckily, the other two interviewers voted him down and said "he will do fine". Later, I was to find out that he was my Chemistry lecturer. odi mere naal ban ke e nai ditti. I think he felt infuriated inside, but didn't bother me overtly too much, because I was well connected with PSF...

Punjab dee Dhee dey NaaN

JadoN izztaN de rakhey izztaN luttan lug paeN

inj laggey jey dharti zehr uglaN lug paeN

Mittro p(b)haijo laanat enhaN rasmaN riwajaN tey

jadoN bandyaN koluN kuttey changey luggaN lug paeN

Is their just one person who liked my poetry? Bali, dil rakhan laie haaN keh deo. I promise to listen to your show tomorrow, 4th of July. I want to listen to one song from movie Shaheed Udham Singh - the one picturized on Juhi Chawla but then.....I have the video and already watched it umpteen times. How about Pathaney Khan's song, inhaN akkheeN koo dHaik, akkheN khush(k) theewan, inhaN akhiaN naal desainda? This is saraiki accent!!!

MTM,

I had exactly the same case in my mind when I said that Human Rights Activists should follow through and ascertain that justice is done.

Your mentioning of D.G. Khan reminds me of my childhood. I used to spend summers in D.I. Khan. I still have fond memories of the hospitality of Derawals, miThhay doakay, and the steamer that ran (I am not sure, if it is still around) to D.G. Khan. I still crack up whenever I recall the unique taunting gesture of women folk - sticking their hand out and uttering "chakhay"...

Sameer,

Please add "kutti choraaN naal mali ae" to my last post.;) Aj kal diyan wazeeraaN di wi ohi haal ae...

Dr. Zaki,

Nice little writeup on Sikh Gurus. I agree with your assertion that monotheistic beliefs of Baba Nanank are closer to ours. Whenever we will assert on the basis of this that "Sikh, Musalman bhra bhra" on the other forum, we get lambasted by Hindu fellas. Dr. Sekhon (if this the same gentleman, as I am assuming) will attest to this...

Sameer,

That's one sad sight! Hopefully, human rights activists will see to it that this poor girl doesn't meet the same fate and justice is delivered. They shouldn't count on these wazeers shazeers.

Best Regards

DB Ji,

That's quite funny! Shano vi namaz di yaad imtihanaaN de aale doalay ee aundi si. Baqi sara saal te jamaat di pichhay murgha banRe honde si. Eis gal te ik latifa yaad aaya:

Ik din kissay di gaaN maseet ja puhnchi te Maulvi Sahab ne oday malak nu keya - "haya kar teri gaaN maseeti aa gai". Ohne kehya- "maulana, ma'af kar diyo, haiwan maal ae, tussi mainu kadi dekhiya maseet vich?":)

...........Dreeda Badan ke Naam...............

Chaak bochhan(*), khooN ba'damaaN taar taar
Chashm pur'nam aabla paa be-qaraar
Rooh bismil, zakhm aaloodah badan
Hawwa ki beti dariNdooN ka shikaar

(*)Bochhan= Sariaki panjabi vich labaas nooN aakhde neiN.

"In God we trust, everyone else pays cash":) Can't remember where I read it, but found it amusing...

Dr. Zaki,

Janab, eh "taaza akhbaar te puraniaN khabraaN" wali gal haigi. Such is the sad state of affair. Thanks for sharing it though. Sheesha vaikhdiaN rehna chai da bande nooN, ghalat fehmiaN door rehndiaN ne.;)

Binte Havva Ki Aabro Phir Tar Tar Hoi
Insaan Numa DarindoN Ki Hawas Ka Shikar Hoi
"Sarzameene Pak" Mein Parchame Zulmat Hoa Kuchh Aur Buland
Sad Afsoos, Insaaniat Phir Ik Baar Sharamsar Hoi...

The above lines are dedicated to the girl from Multan who was gang raped. Sorry, couldn't comeup with Punjabi lines!

Tohadi Bohut-Bohut Meharbani Ke tusi pher Ustad horaan da show kar rahe ho. Is nu kehnde ne Ke Rabb ne(te mere lai Bali ne)Nedey Ho ke dil di Bujh Lai hai. Once again Thanks a Bunch

Rab Rakha

Agg Vair Di Howay Ya Piyaar Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Agg Jabber Di Zor Di TaqataaN Di
Aaq Qaher Di Zulam Di AafataaN Di
JehRee Baldi Agg Kamzoor Ander
Ohi Hashar Di Agg BaghawataaN Di

Kitay Dob Daindi Kitay Taar Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Agg HaddaaN Di Baal Day Piyar Walay
Dujay TiraaN NouN SaaR Day Khaar Walay
Agg Lagay Tay Phair Na MoR Takay
Wichay Ball Day Jaan Wichkar Walay

Her Kissay NouN Aan PachhaR Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Agg Baallan NaaN Howay Tay Baldi NaiN
Teelee Lagay Ba-ghair Aay Jall Di NaiN
Zehree Hoon Khiyal Tay Laown AggaaN
SouchaaN KoRiaN Naal We Tall Di NaiN

Ratt AndrouN Ander Ee KaaR Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Kam Sokhaa Way Agg NouN Laan Waala
PhhukaaN Mar Kay Agg Tukhaan Waala
Agg Ek TouN Ek NouN PhhaR Lyaindi
Kam Oukhaa Way Agg Bujhaan Waala

Bujhi Jaandi Vee Ghar UjaaR Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

....Guru Nanak ji di shoroo di zingdi ohnaaN di muslimaan mid-wife ‘DoultaaN’ sang guzri. Ohnaan de pehle ustaad (teacher) Mohammad Hussain san. MuslimaanaaN hamesh Guru sahibaan naal apni eqeedat (reverence) da baRa khul ke izhaar kita. EhdiaaN kujh misaalaaN thelle likhiyaaN neiN. …….Ik muslimaaN, Roy Bolaar neiN Gurdawaara Janamistan da naaN vaddi jaagir te Nankana Sahib da saara raqba gurdawaara Sahib de naaN laaya. Gurdawaara Baani lila te Gurdawaara Maal Sahib naaviN vi JagiraaN laayaaN. OhnaaN di shaadi te vi baRi dil khol ke nazraane pesh kite. Mughal Badshah Babar ne aap noon eman abad de jail khaane tooN reha karvaaya balke lutya maal vi waapas karvaya. Akbar Baadshah ne guru Amar das Ji noon 84 pind daan kite. Hor kei nazraane vi Akbar neiN Guru Ram Das ji noon daan kite. Guru Arjan Ji jadooN Lahore aaye te ohnaaN di satkaari lei kei muslimaan sufi apRe, jinaaN vich Shah Hussain (Famous Panjabi Poet) vi san. Guru Arjan Ji neiN Gurdawaara Har-mandar Sahib di neiNh rakhan lei Hazrat MiaN Mir horaaN aakhiya…..JadooN Guru Har-GobiNd Lahore aaye te Hazrat MiaN mir noon Milan geye te othe hor vi kei Muslimaan bazurg san. Shah JahaaN da puttar Dara Shakoh Guru Har-Roy Sahib da baRa qareebi mittar si te takhat-Nashini di jang vich aap ne Dara-Shakoh di maali te fouji amdaad kiti. Chamkor di laRaai vich ik Mughal commaNdar 5000 fouji le ke nabar ho giya te Guru GobaNd Ji vallooN laRya. JadooN Guru GobaNd ji ne ihtiati tor te Maachhi waaRe tooN niklan da faisla kita te ehde vich do Muslimaan BharaavaaN neiN jaan te khed ke ohnaan noon othooN niklan vich maddad kiti. Guru GobiNd Singh ji ne Aorangzeb noon ik khat likhiya jehRa Sikh ithaas vich ‘Zafar-nama’ de naaN naal mash-hoor e. Aakhri mughal baadshah Bahadar shah Zafar ne aap noon Hazrat Imam Hussain (The Grandson of Prophet Mohammad PBUH) di talwaar daan kiti te bohat vaddi khil’at nazraana kiti.

[ Eh comment likhan vich saare hawaale thalle ditte mazmoon chooN leye geye ne].

Zaigham, Syed Sibtul Hussan. “Sikh Dharm De 500 Warhe”, LEHRAN, Lahore, April 1999.

- Khabar Saar
- Preet
- Bole So Nihal
- Ajj di Khabar
- Pataake Thaa
- Apni Mitti Punjabi
- Dupatta
- Balde Darya
- Daane Anar de
- Sanjhi Peed(peeRh)
- Kachi Kandh
- Gaundi Dharti
- KikraN de phull
- Kaun Dilan dian Jaane
etc.

Lao Ji Sajjano Ik Hor Cheez Pesh Kar Reha Haan. Eh Geet Mere Mittr da Likheya Hoya Hai Jo Ke Mainu Ik vaari Mil Ke Duniya Di BhheeD Vich Kitey Gwaach Geya. Os Bande Vich Kade Kade mainu lagda c ke Shiv vali koi Chinag Hai Jo Ke usnu SaaD rahi Hai. Rabb Kare Jithe vi Hai Rabb Appni Mehar Rakhey.

Jithe Aapne Hi Bhul Gaye Garibaan Nu
Gairaan Ne Bhulaya TaN Ki Hoya
Mainu Aapneyaan te Na Koi Shikvaa
Gussa Gairaan Te Na Aaya TaN Ki Hoya

Jadon Sajjna Ve Assi Moye Si
Loki Hasde Si Ambar Roye Si
Meri Arthi Nu Chukeyaa KaavaN Ne
Kisse Modha Na Laaya TaN Ki Hoya

Assi karde Jinaa Nu Sajde Rahe
Oh Saathon Kyon DooR Hi Bhajde Rahe
Jihnu "Jassi" Ne Bada Chahyaa Si
Je Ohna Ne Na Chahyaa TaN Ki Hoya

Shikra Ji,

During military stand-off, emotions run high. However, I beleive that a little introspection every once in a while doesn't hurt and shouldn't endanger our patriotism. Due to lack of public debate in defining "national interests", our policy makers have made some mistakes which have compounded the miseries of an already impoverished region. Luckily external factors have forced us to reconsider errant policies. That's not to say that the other side is totally absolved of any responsibility in aggravating situation either.

The partition was another issue that added fuel to the 'mistrust'. My family lived in Lahore and as with most families at the time we suffered the trauma of leaving everything there and moving to Jallandhar. Its worth mentioning that my folks never ever faced any conflict whilst living side by side with muslims in Lahore, there was a healthy co-existence so perhaps Imran Ahmed is right about the propaganda and media issue. Talking of Imran Ahmed, you dont sound like the same person as a few weeks ago, your actually talking sense. :-))

Anyway then came the Indo-pak wars blah blah blah...........

I guess, the select group of parents whose livelihood depends upon enemity with India or who have been directly affected by the conflict probably do indoctrinate their childern. The only comment I ever heard from my Ammi regarding Indo-Pak conflict was "Beta Pakistan khud shaitaan hai", which after obejective research I have found to be true.

Sometimes I ask people why they look down on people recently arrived from Punjab, and I hear the most pathetic remarks. "Oh they have that dippy accent, they can't dress, they are so not cool, so fresh, just so damn Punjabi". I try and show the the comparison, I have an accent and yet people think its cool, why the disparity? Anyways, I started writing this post an 3 hours ago, and kind of walked off, now I've lost my train of thought, yet, I guess I made my point.

Prem ji, let me tell you my story. I know you will love it as it contains some mention of one of your favourite places.:-). The day I passed my Matric exam and went to take admission to this college for my pre-engineering, it was probably my 7th or 8th trip to a city in my whole life until then. All my tavels before that were through the paindooland...like going from my village to my nana's village...we did not not need to go to city for that....bass pindo pind turday jao te aggay maama pind. Anyways...all the men in our village(sorry to mention it again and again. Zahra and Suman ji:)) wore chadars or pajamas with the exception of few who wore out of fashion pants...these people were made fun of by others by saying "oye ghaTangi master"..oye pant wale. All men had beards on faces and some kind of turban or saafa on head. I had met very few cleanshaven people till then...hard to believe but true. So here I go into this college..lucky to get admission to this group of students called A group. All came from good schools with high scores...I did not come from good school but was lucky to have enough high score to be amongst them. All our professors were clean shaven and it took me about 3 months to figure out ke math wala professor kehRa ay te physics wala kehRa. I believe they were good professors with the exception of one...Chemistry wala...in the whole class it was only one other student like me who came to the city for the first time...naturally we bonded(are still close friends living only 100 miles apart now) together and used to sit together in class. Prof. C will ask questions in his class and if 1 or 2 students did not answer he will then turn to us. If others did not know, probablity was very high that we didn't either..so at our wrong answer or no answer...he will go(unfortunately in ThaiTh punjabi)..achha achha aa gaye ne paindoo naklaN maar ke... he will look smiling at other student(liek encouraging them) who will laugh at his comments. It of course hurt us but we wanted to study and did not udnerstand the deeper meaning of his words used so kept quite. We were away form home for the first time...it effected our healths, ability to concentrate on studies, change of medium of education from punjabi to english...terible half year...but then the real paindoos inside us woke up...no we did not beat him up:-)...it basically said...putro, sher bano sher..injh maidaan choN nai bhajjida...so we worked hard and finally made it better than 3/4th of the class. Next year Prof. C was much nicer...and he did not mention the P word again. That was the same technique of showing yourself superior and making others feel lower than you as you mentioned in your post.

Now imagine making that comment to a student in a class in any civilized country...student will sue them in a second. After so many years now that I love the place I grew up, the language I speak and what I am(unfortunately not much different than Prof C with the exception that since he was born in the "city" he was superior)...some times I feel going back and suing that son of a gun. Prem ji, that place I mentioned was not in J...but you got the idea.

BKD,

Growing up in England in a very white surburban area, at one time I was the only person of colour in a school with over 900 students. By the time I was a teenager we had moved to a village where there were two Punjabi families. For the most part, even now, when I sometimes my nephew to school when I'm over there on holiday, I notice the same nervous, uncomfortable and often outrightly hostile faces from other mothers. Its a lot less than it was but its still there. So in this case its clear who is teaching these children mistrust. Of course they are not saying honey you are better, or these people are less than you, not in so many words, but kids pick up on a lot more than that as we well know. Obviously I'm aware that media propaganda is a huge part of this, and much more so in our part of the world, yet its not the only culprit. Parents themselves are victims of this same media machine, and can only pass on to their kids what they know.

My friends come Pakistan come from University educated ranks as well as those who speak like they still live in the pind. Media propaganda is a widespread tool, its is coupled with biased and often ina accurate historical education. This is fed to our parents also along with stories of past injustices by those perceived to be the aggressors. I am not saying that our closed in community teaches us hatred, but I will still say that they teach us distrust, in subtle ways, often by remarks made, history lessons taught that only give one side of the story and the natural human tendency to distrust those that are different.

The only way to break out of this to do your own research, to find common ground, to look for the truth in history even if its hurts our own image of our people, to understand, and to forgive.

The establishment controlled mindset was a big success in Pakistan because it was substantiated by not just religion but also comparison. The Indian economy did poorly and Pakistani standards of living were slightly better than average Indian. This was always translated into having better religion, two-nation theory and Indians suffering because of bad religions. Sometime during late seventies or eighties things started to turn around for India and at present they have slightly better standards of living. Indian economy is growing couple of percent higher rate than Pakistani and Pakistani population is increasing at higher rate than India. If this trend continues for ten years, Indian Punjabis will have substantially better standards of living then average Pakistani Punjabis. This disparity, never existed before, would spark an introspection by Pakistani Punjabis with no hold barred. The most important question, “What Went Wrong” will tear up the state controlled mindset of “we good, they bad”. Some of us have already started questioning without limiting ourselves to the peripheral causes like Kashmir policy, disproportionate military spending, feudalism, corruption and dictatorships. It is clearly a case of misplaced priorities including religious practices and religion in politics. Neither peaceful co-existence nor a friendly relationship between India and Pakistan is on the horizon with current breed of leadership in both countries. With Musharraf in full command, military interests will keep taking precedence over national interests for many years to come. Most of the history deals with how one religion was bad for other people or religions. Now doubts are appearing how certain religious practices and obsession with filtering every little thing through the religion mesh can lead to decline of living standards.

Competition is the nature of all living organisms including human beings. When parents want their child to come first in school or support, it automatically mean that they do not wish others' children to come out on the top. However, it does not mean they wish others' children to flunk in orde for their own to come out on the top. It is not a win-lose situation but ideologies and nations are competing on win-lose model. Again competition between two corporation does not allow to setting fire the competing business. The competition between India and Pakistan is a lose-lose situation for both as Javed Zaki pointed out. This is the worst outcome of looking the situation through game theory. I seriously doubt even resolving the Kashmir problem will end hostilities between two nations. The most weird and most bizzare scenario to force India and Pakistan to honestly co-operate, invoking all the past history of living together and the veneration of Sufis would be a serious challenge threatening the very existence of both nation states. No it won't be poverty or plight of th poor because they already exist but something like a serious and strong movement for Punjab unification on both sides of the border. Right now it is not even remotely possible. Why can't Diaspora Punjabis use it as a bluff to force co-operation between India and Pakistan leading to better living standards and peaceful co-existence? Punjabis have been sacrificing their lives in wars for both countries; they should also consider sacrificing their lives to make peace between two countries. I can already imagine hearing slogan like, "Hindi Pakistani bhai bhai - Punjabi qaum kahaN sey aai".

P.S. Nobody should take it too seriously. It is just a wild thought due to the deep yearning for peaceful and friendly South Asia.

BKD,

Parents are part of community and when you blame a community of teaching hate, distrust toward a certain group you are inadvertently blaming parents of this monstrosity. I believe no sensible parent will ever teach his or her children hate, because, hate and violence tend to follow their own logic and cannot be contained or in other word targeted towards a certain group for too long. That’s just bad parenting, plainly put.

It's most of the time state-owned media that propagandise to shove its nation state down the throats of Indians and Pakistanis, majority of whom are still having difficulty getting used to this alien concept. Top that off with state's inability due to lack of resources at its disposal and wide spread corruption in bringing people of far flung areas into mainstream by providing even most of the basic amenities of life and it's not hard to grasp state's insecurities. People who are still having to bring drinking water from rivers and streams could give too hoots about nation state.

Besides, the inbred lack of collective thinking and aversion to strong center among Indians and Pakistanis further aggravates insecurities state "strategists". It’s a naked truth that thinking of majority of us is still confined to Pind and Bradari. This lack of collective thinking is a one reason there’s never been a grass roots movement to bring social change in the sub-continent.

BKD,

In majority of Pakistani households, India doesn't figure much beyond its entertainment value (Bollywood). We are not taught by our parents to distrust India while growing up. It's the Pakistani establishment controlled media's propaganda that deserves blame not our parents. Your friend's cases could be different.

The pointed gold thing on the head you were talking about is called Saggi-Phul. usually it is an ornament which comes in either in one big piece or comes in three pieces big one in the middle and two small ones beside the big one. the reason for wearing that ornament is to have your heavy weight phulkari not to slip from your head while dancing or moving around. How I come to find out about es gehne baare enee jaankari. aapni ma de gehneyaan wich es tarah di ajeeb jehi cheez dekh ke nikke hunde ne mai aapni maa to puchda rehnda c.

Waise Kadey kadey Rabb da bara Shukar karda haan ke tere jahi kuri is forum te kade kade haaseyaan di thadi jehi fuhaar kar dindi hai te kadey kadey Teeyaan da virtual tour karva dindi hai. Nahin ta Aaj Kal ethe re Jhakaad hi hor tarhaan de Jhul rahe ne. Any way keep up the good work.

Ik guzaarish hai how can I listen to any previous episode of your net radio show(Pooran Shah Koti te ohde munde master salim wala)I was not able to get to that show. so let me know.

Rab Rakha

I would agree with you. Before learning or becoming so involved with Punjabi culture I felt a little more comfortable among Sikhs than specifically Muslim's. Now I ponder on why this was, and it goes down to what I was learning from the community around me. I was taught to distrust Muslim's, which to a certain level I did. (This is an extremely honest post) Shikra, since you also grew up in the UK, actually more in the heart of the conflict of which I speak, you must surely understand my point. Today I have many Muslim friends who were raised in Pakistan who speak of the same distrust they were taught to have of let's say Indian's in particular and also non-muslims.

Today, though I can say with confidence that I feel a natural affinity towards Punjabi's regardless of whatever religion they happen to be. Yes perhaps I'm a little more cautious of what I say around my non-Sikh Punjabi friends, thats just simply being couteous and taking care not to hurt anyone's feelings by saying something that would be in conflict with their faith. That doesn't mean we never discuss those things though.

An all too rigid path of any religion is not good for the individual or for the community at large. That will most likely cause a few ripples. Constantly viewing each other with eyes of suspicion only closes us in...dare...God made us with the same tender loving care, we all worship in our own way, some in masjid's, mandir's, gurdawara's, churches, and others alternatively by simply in their own hearts and in their daily actions. Nothing wrong with either of these, yet, I do believe that the second, alternative option is complete, yet the first without the second is of small consequence.

Its so difficult to stop believing what we've always been taught since childhood. People will always quietly give their own faith props, sometimes, even while actually very little knowledge about it. Yet it seems almost an accident, if a Sikh had been born a Moslem or vis-versa, then picture the scenario. Even when we think we are thinking for ourselves, are we really? Or are we only thinking within the boundaries that we have mentally allowed ourselves, making sure we never question or contradict anything that may lead us to question the 'word'. Thinking outside the box takes guts. The faith box has become the most cast iron there is in this world. With the constant fear of hell and damnation if we so much as dare to look outside the one the consequences of our birth gave us...this goes for all faiths, some more than others.

Zaki saheb, recently I tried to defend left-of-center at another site I often interact but it seems like out of fashion lately. You have my best wishes in your endeavor to actually do something. For some strange reasons - may be in order to justify my inactive/ theoretical participation status or my very subjective analysis of history - I have concluded that the probability of doing anything at grass-root level or bottom up approach is miniscule in our societies. It may have to do with lax attitude, poor communication, poor organizations or simply lack of revolutionary spirit. All the changes good or bad have been top down and at present the top down agenda of elite is accumulation of wealth by all means possible as SAP story posted by Imran. These morally bankrupt and their ineptitude to do anything has brought us to the brink of failed state. The caste system, the conversions, the partition, the bloodbath in 1947, the failed Kashmir policy, the sectarian violence, the non-stop exploitation of the most precious, most vulnerable, you name it were/ are all top down approaches. We must introspect as frequently as we cherish our land and culture. The Punjabyat can not succeed without Punjabis succeeding in overcoming all the evils hampering our progress and creating a just society.

As someone said "faith brings us together, ingenuity sets us apart". Let's face it sir, at the end of day you will be comfortable in your Gurdawara while I a misfit there. Culturists should not underestimate the importance of religion. The theory of irrelevance of religion in modern age has fallen flat on its face. In this increasingly globalised world, culture is on the losing end while religion keeps getting stronger than ever. Sky rocketing numbers of evangelical Christians and the recent decision of majority of parents to send their children to religious schools (in the US!) on government vouchers are a clear indication of the trends.

In Indo-Pak context, I don't disagree with the fact that the religion has been exploited by vested interests to their own ends. But, I am unable to grasp the logic that by overplaying "cultural bonds" and degrading religion will somehow bring coveted peace in the sub-continent without dealing with the underlying problems. Religion is not the hurdle in achieving peace, it's the vested interests that are preventing it. I don't believe we will ever be brothers-in-arms as such, but peaceful co-existence based on mutual respect should be a goal pursued relenetlessly. Everybody deserves it!

Regards

Javed,

I would only be more than glad to. Just let me know and good luck with your endeavors!

Regards

I wonder if we will ever be able to break free from this vicious cycle of corruption and exploitation. Because, it seems the only change that has materialised is "change of hands". One group of exploiters is replaced by another every few years and the cycle continues. How unfortunate!

SAP wrapped up...

The only down point to the day was that the promoter, a Punjabi, continuely spoke tutti futti Angrezi on stage, pehli gal te oh bolda kyon see, te dooji jad bolni vee nahi aundi araam naal Punjabi ch teri samajh te lagge kee keede pehN pehN chadee jaaNa a. Kehnde kuriaN nu 'please mein towanu punjabi ch kehnda a , please be move ho jao'. Punjabi? Really? Beats me!

Anyways Sameer ji and Dullabhatti ji, othe meiN vee hathaaN nu mehnNdi laake baithee see, te towada yaad aaya. Pata kyon, isliye ki upar sarak te, gates de baahar, uchee jagaa see, te munde baahar chadar beshaake baithe see jiveN baneriaaN te baithe hunde ne, chaatiyaaN marde see. Towadi kitte agge koi likhi gal yaad ayi see os vele...meiN jaake Sardool Sikander nu kiha see ki Noorie nu keh ohee boli paave 'veeraaN'(jehri dullbhati tu dassi see) te ohna te taavaa laave zara!

Hope this serves as a little light relief from the negativity and malicious intent caused by a minority here.

Javed,

I wonder what your intent was by posting that piece from DAWN? Were you trying to educate the readers about unfortunate exploitation and injustices against women in our society? Or was there some other hidden motive behind thy attempt?

Punjab name's might not have been mentioned in this particular article. But the fact remains that we share the cultural baggage with other provinces. Opression of the weak, corruption, hounour killing, burning of brides etc. are our collective culture. Sadly, nothing really to be proud of.

Abdul Sami Paracha

Women are still treated as objects to be bought and sold in certain parts of the tribal areas.
Many women in Pushtoon tribal society are still regarded as machines and the obedient servants of men. With a dismal literacy rate of 0.32 per cent, their plight is best encapsulated in a famous local saying (mostly told as a joke): "Women are meant to fetch water and collect wood during the day and work on the eleventh child in the night, as their husband wishes."
The 'sale' of girls and boys has also been in vogue in certain areas. In many cases, the deal is struck by none other than her father and brother. While men seek beauty and are willing to pay anything for it, women have no choice but to accept the decision.
Noor Jan Orakzai is a Malik (elder) of the Mamozai tribe of the Orakzai Agency. He has seven daughters and sighs with disappointment that his tribe has fixed Rs60,000 as the rate of a girl. Earlier, it was up to the father to decide the rate and one could easily get Rs150,000 for an average girl. Four of the girls are his brother's, after whose death his wife was married to Noor Jan. Those who practice the custom claim that they are not buying women but offering bride-price, as opposed to dowry, for them.
The nomadic Ghilji, Kochi and Jaji women are the most costly because of their pretty faces, height and muscular physique. A girl can fetch Rs300,000 or a hundred sheep for her family. Similarly, the Afridis also pay a huge price for a girl's hand. In the Mohmand and Bajaur Agencies in the extreme north of the NWFP, because of extreme poverty, the bride-price is very low. But nobody is given away free of cost.Women who are priced highly in this area feel honoured, with the deal taking months to finalize.
It has been seen, in extreme cases, that warring tribes aim for women and girls who, after they are caught, are then sold off, resettled or forcibly married to them. In 1998, about 65 women were reported missing in fighting between two groups in the Orakzai and Kurram Agencies. Instead of taking lives to bring each other down, they (the tribes) attack each other's honour, to sully it in the eyes of neighbouring tribes. The act also helps to get leverage in case a jirga (a reconciliatory meeting) is held at the end of the war. There have been reports confirming the fact that rival tribes had sold better-looking women and girls to pimps in Peshawar's flesh trade market.
According to local sources, during the last 20 years, in the Orakzai Agency alone, at least 19 girls have been condemned to honour killings. The number exceeds 100 if the other tribal areas are included. From the 20 cases, only three of the men involved were killed. The remaining fled the area, leaving behind their loved ones to be sacrificed. In Pushto these women are called Tora which means 'stigma', the same meaning as the term Karo in the interior of Sindh. Here, too, the same term is used for killing them in the name of honour. For the judgement of Tora, only one witness is sufficient, who can himself perform the ritual at the scene or can report the matter to the families of the couple, who can then kill them separately in their homes. In most of the cases, the absconding male never returns to his village for the rest of his life.
The tribesmen also buy women from the other provinces for the sake of prostitution. During a military operation in the famous gun-manufacturing town of Darra Adam Khel, the army recovered dozens of girls from the dens of hotel owners. Most of the girls, kept in the CIA cell in Kohat while they waited to be handed over to their families from different parts of the country, reported that they had seen sunlight after more than a year. The hotel staff had offered some of them to truck drivers, while others were sold to potential buyers soon after reaching the tribal area. Since then, no word has been heard about them. The influential tribesmen, who are still involved in this inhuman business, were never arrested nor punished. Instead, they were all exonerated after they had paid a fine under tribal norms to the administration and the elders.
In 1998, four school teachers were kidnapped by a group of women traffickers from Darra Adam Khel. A proclaimed offender, Mujahid, who acted as a go- between, later sold them to another party in Parachinar for Rs250,000. From there, these innocent school teachers were whisked away to Swat to a newly-established brothel. One girl managed to escape from the den following which the police got the other three released too. However, under immense pressure from the other tribes, the parents did not allow them to enter their homes. The man who had taken the girls from Darra to Kohat was kidnapped by the tribesmen and was burnt alive in the bazaar to avenge the girls' kidnapping. His name was Riaz. No investigations were conducted into the case and the file was closed at the request of the teachers' relatives.
Rich tribesmen of Orakzai, Waziristan and the Kurram Agencies would buy girls from Swat, Charsadda and Mardan at extremely low prices. Afterwards, they would kill their enemy next to their wives, declaring them to be Tora. To discourage the practice of making alien women scapegoats, elders have now banned such killings and imposed a restriction on them, saying that only local girls could be killed on such charges, not outsiders.
Honour always demands sacrifices from women. In 1945, Israrullah was engaged to Bibi Khani. He left soon after to work in Bombay. He returned in 1986 to bury his wife-to-be who had died while waiting for him. In these areas, such women are respected. The people of their tribe proudly proclaim: "Sar aey spin kro" (For the sake of honour, she became old and died a virgin).
There are other bizarre traditions for maintaining honour. In a village near Bannu district lives a tribe which welcomes the barat with rotten eggs, vegetables and fruit. The bride accompanies her in-laws and she is seen off in the same manner. Dr Fazal Ahmed, a resident of the village, says that they indulge in this practice for the preservation of their honour.
However strong a lion may be, it cannot fight vultures alone. Similarly, the downtrodden and weak among us need the help and support of organizations to fight discrimination. For one is not born by birth without honour, it is society which makes people good or evil.

Sameer,

Relax yaar! That cartoon was an [unintentional] cut 'n paste mistake and will be removed, as all my posts are. I don't know how Punjab or its "culture" is threatened by it, though.

I would reiterate my position that culture cannot or shouldn't remain oblivious to religion. Cultural practices that conflict with religious ideology will have to eventually die out and nobody can prevent that. Bhanwain koi tatty taway te ee kyon na beh javay.

Also, I believe that radicals don't born out of the blue. Men like Abd-al-Wahhab are of our own making. I wonder how much diluted practices of sub-continental Muslims had a bearing on his psyche and the consequent birth of Wahhabi movement. We can shift the blame elsewhere (British) as usual. But, I think his visit to Hind might hace more to do with his emabarking upon "purification movement"!

Now if that makes me "trigger happy", so be it. I don't worry about labels.

I clearly stated in my previous post, "The belief part of faith has very limited utility in practical terms". The belief part to me was belief in one god, prophethood of Mohammad, khatm ul anbia, belief in judgment day and not following any other diety. These are all theoretical things. And the trigger happy reply came, "propagandist, "RAW agent" and "for practicing Muslims........". Who has denied here that for a practicing Muslim 18 hours a day, culture will be left with no time. There are such people in every religion. However, the term practicing religion means practicing anywhere between zero and 24 hours a day. Some will practice five minute a day, other 18 hours a day or once a week. I agree to some extent with Kamran that Islam has enriched Punjabi culture in many areas as do Sikhism and Hinduism. The thing taking place at urs of pirs and sufis are mostly cultural or indigenous. It is impossible to conclude if religion is aabove culture if one witnesses any wedding taking place in Punjab. Except for the nikkah ceremony it is all local traditions and nikkah takes only 5-10 minutes. Of course Tableeghi Jamaat or Council of Islamic Ideology opposes these local traditions but they have failed in the past and they will fail in the future to exclude all non-Arabic elements of Punjabi heritage. Just like politics, all culture is local and Punjabi voting pattern during few elections Pakistan had is a clear indication of it. The voting trend has been PPP or PML on one level and Jat, Rajput, AraiN and Gujjar on tribal affiliation level.

Once in Lahore during elections, Bhutto won election despite stating in public, haan maiN sharab peeta huN, ghareeboN ka khoon naheeN peeta" and a joint fatwa, branding him kafir by almost all the well-known mullahs. Majority matters and majority of Punjabi Muslims do not weave their lives and decisions around a narrow and rigid version of orthodox Islamist and fundamentalists.

Right now it appears that PPP (Benazir Bhutto) is the most popular party in Punjab. One can count Islamists out right away but Shahbaz Sharif can make a comeback if 1) he is allowed, 2) he comes against Musharraf and most importantly 3) If he promises and sincerely means to defend Punjabi language and culture. He can upset PPP in Punjab easily only by going all out for Punjabyat.

Javed,

You built your case on a false notion: Hindus deities must be revered and even elevated to prophethood in order for us to have a social atmosphere for peaceful co-existance. I am gald that you finally realised the fallacy of your argument and ran out of steam. Your getting personal is an indication enough of that. So, the end of debate, as far as I am concerned.

Pehli gall: you don't have to post 1 line posts in response to everyone and thank everyone for everything. It is understood that you agree with good views, and appreciate fellow participants. That goes without saying...although you can mention it once in a while par kaseeday likhan na kujh nahi bann'na. This website does not get paid by hits. bhaweiN saara din TakkraN maari jao, aithey ikk chawaani da faiyeda nahi je hona. aweiN khilaara jiha painda ay te discussion paRhan/karn waleyaN nu dikkat aundi ay.

Dooji gall: ehh bhainaN bharawa da pinD ay. te tusi khud siyaane O...siyaane kehnday ne bhehnaN de pinD 'ch akhaN neewiyaN karke langhi'da ay. eho jihay banday di saare sift karde ne. tuhadi vi hoye gi sift te tusi hor makbool howoge. eh salaah thoRhi sensitive ay , mind na karna.

teeji gall: NY Times di website te jaa ke ikk vaar phir try karo..registration ho jayegi...tuhanu beshak nahi pata par tuhade koll time haiga ay.

Baaki saare: Dosto, I think self restraint is the best. We don't need a moderrator who continuously evaluates our thoughts and words to phair kainchee. what we need is a clear set of guidelines for the discussion allowed..then we individually restraint ourselves to be within those guidlelines and collectively condemn anyone who crosses it.

Now I will suggest something else, why don't you collect all your thoughts and put them in one post instead of 20, and meri gal chaddo te Punjabi de sirf karo. Kee khyaal hai towada?

Javed Ji, you are right on the mark for Dullabhatti, I here second the vote! :-))

Javed,

I can find ample verses that denounce idol worshiping and associating partners with God. But, I don't think it's going to change anything.

The point that you are missing is (which I made in my last post) is that Hindus and Muslims can co-exist peacfully without bestowing prophethood on Monkeys, Shiv Linga and what not. But some poeple will never get it!

To the propagandist (RAW sends the lousiest ones!)

For practising Muslims, religion plays far greater role in making daily choices than culture. For example, a Muslim (who is not adha tittar te adha batair!) cannot have Sausage for breakfast just as he cannot have a wine at dinner. I could go on, but what's the use?

One thing I can say with confidence that our Sufis would not had this much respect and success if their message was same and presented in the same tone as we have witnessed by few. How could have a Sufi been successful if he was to say that after conversion you should not revere anybody you revered before and consider your culture and traditions pagan or secondary to the faith? Faith does not have to come in play in making choices which are benign to religion. What has my faith to do with my likeness for spicy food, enjoying mangoes lot more than dates and veneration of the people I think are worth revering?

Suman Ji, Imran te Kamran! First of all I will strongly urge the moderator to repost Mr. Imran’s (or Mr. Kamran) latest post (if possible) wherein he accused me of have twisted references from Quran. I have spent almost last two whole days to get other references from Quran to dispel his wrong opinion and impression on the issue under-discussion. Moreover, this is very important discussion from the viewpoint to develop a social atmosphere of peaceful co-existence between Hindus and Muslims.

Mr. Imran (and Kamran), I am referring here two more Ayah from Quran and providing their exact English translation and commentary by Abdullah Yousaf Ali.

1)….Sura II (Al-Baqra), Ayah 62: “In-nulla zina aa aamanu . . . . . . . wala khoufun alaiyhum yahzanonn.”
...”Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, - Any who who believe in God and the Last Day, and work rightiousness, Shall have their rewardWith their Lord: on them will be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”

2)….Sura XXII (Al-hujj), Ayah 17: “In-nulla zina aa aamanu . . . . in nullohaha aalaa kulle she’in shaheed.”
...” Those who believe (in the Quran), Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), And the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists, -- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: For God is witness of all things.”

3)….Commentry by A. Yousaf Ali on the above Ayah.

….. (2788, page 854): in both these passages “the Muslims are mentioned with the Jews, Christians and Sabians,as receiving Gos’s protection and mercy. Here besides the four religions, there is further mention of Magians (Majoosi- Fire-worshipers) and Polytheists”. Polytheists can easily be recognized as the Greeks-Romans and Egyptians of the mythical periods, and certainly Hindus of the past and the recent period.

….. (Comment 2789, page 854): “This is the only place where the Magians (Majus) are mentioned in the Quran. Their cult is very ancient one. They consider Fire as the Purest and noblest element, and worship it as a fit emblem of God. Their location was the Persian and Median uplands and the Mesopotamian valleys. Their religion was reformed by the prophet Zardusht (date uncertain, about B.B. 600 ?). Their scripture is the Zend-Avesta, the bible of the Parsis. They were “the wise men of the East” mentioned in the gospels.

Mr. Kamran and Mr. Imran! If you want to check my reference where I pointed out that some Muslims do consider deities of other religions as ‘prophets’, SEE comment # 76, page 33 of the same source. A. Yousaf Ali, while describing ‘the peoples of book’ mentioned, “But I think that in this matter (though many authorities would dissent) the term can be extended by analogy to cover earnest followers of Zoroaster, the Vedas, Buddha, Confucius and other Teachers of moral law.”

REFERENCE: “The Holy Quran : Translation and Commentary” by A. Yousaf Ali, Amana Corp., Maryland, 1983.

(Re-posted on Mr. Javed Zaki's request) javed

Don't twist the context of the ayaah. Krishna might have been a prophet and might not, only God knows. But the point is that Hindus (like other pagans) rejected the message of God and reverted to their errant ways. That's what needs to be kept in persepctive by the propnents of "deen-e-elahi".

similariy, if a Muslim has to admire Kabir's poetry, does not mean he is worshiping deities.

Re. the issue of 'revering' any Hindu figure. I think that maybe the word 'revere' has a religious connatation. So let us change it to something less emotional - how about regard or admire? And look at the issue from that angle. Secondly, if I remember right, the origin of this discussion was a statement by someone that the poems of Kabir, Tukaram et al were not seen in the same light by a certain kind of a muslim reader (there are many exceptions, thank god). My thought is that ALL mystic poets essentially write about a similar experiance and have a similar message - whether it be Kabir, Rumi, Meera, Bulla or Guru Nanak. I guess all I'm saying that it really puzzles me how anyone can so surgically chop off the messenger from the message.

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog
Jee Kar Da MaiN LaylaaN Joog

Nafsaa Nafsee Zaat Da Piyar
Aapas Day Wich Tou Takrar
Nafrat Vair LaRayaaN JagRay
Duniyaa Keetee Roog-O-Roog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Dil Kalay Tay Khoon Sufaid
Wich Paaee JindRe Katdi Qaid
Ais Munafak Duniyaa Da Paee
BaiTthh Manoudi Aapaee Soog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Ek Dujay Day Aayb Pay Chunday
Taanay Dainday Taanay Sunday
Ek Dujay NouN Sah NaiN Sukday
Lagda Muk Gaee Piyar Di Choog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog
Jee Kar Da MaiN LaylaaN Joog

Nafsaa Nafsee Zaat Da Piyar
Aapas Day Wich Tou Takrar
Nafrat Vair LaRayaaN JagRay
Duniyaa Keetee Roog-O-Roog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Dil Kalay Tay Khoon Sufaid
Wich Paaee JindRe Katdi Qaid Ais Munafak Duniyaa Da Paee
BaiTthh Manoudi Aapaee Soog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Ek Dujay Day Aayb Pay Chunday
Taanay Dainday Taanay Sunday
Ek Dujay NouN Sah NaiN Sukday
Lagda Muk Gaee Piyar Di Choog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

At least on this forum culture is the priority, and a few misguided comments are not going to change that.

Also MR Kamran, pls remove me from your email list for Khalistan mailings, thank you, regardless of whatever empathy I may or may not have with the cause, it makes me sick to see it hijacked by people with ulterior motives.

To your query about Muslims not having reverence for any Hindu or non-Muslim as per Islamic law is actually more like “Desi Muslims do not have reverence for any Hindu non-Muslim as per Desi Islamic Law”. In Indonesia, Malaysia and many African countries, many Hindus, Buddhists and Indigenous believers such as Shamans respectively are highly revered. Desi Muslims are a breed unto themselves in many ways.

In Indonesia, Muslims have both :Islamic names as well as Hindu names, such as Megawati Sukarnoputri, president of Indonesia. Even the former president Abdul Rehman Waheed, considered an Islamic scholar, many times spoke with admiration of Indian heritage component of Indonesian culture. Persians and Turkish people did not change their names after converting to Islam. There is absolutely nothing Islamic about Eltamush, Subuktageen, Alap-Tageen, Taimur, Babar, Hunayun or Aurangzeb names but Desi Muslims happily accepted them even accepting persianized form of Alexander as Sikander. More recently trend has been more Arabic than Persian and one hears names never heard before. Many businesses and institution names now start with Al- and –Ul- is replacing Persian –e- that is commonly used in Urdu to connect words with the meaning “of”, such as Quaid-e-Azam. Khuda Hafiz is now Allah Hafiz, Noor Karyana Store is now Al-Noor Karyana Store and so on. This new trend was started during Zia era and is continuing to this day.

I am not sure if the converts started their name changes right away or slowly in few generations of remaining as nominal Muslims with Hindu or indigenous names. My hunch is that most of the name changes came later after conversion. Day before yesterday, I posted a page from history about a person named Jasrat. Jasrat is a well-known Hindu name but this Jasrat was nominal Muslim even after many generations of conversions. Similarly Heer, Kaido, Ranjha, Sehti, Sussi and Punnu do not sound Islamic but SahibaN and Mirza clearly do. Similarly our Sufi Saint Shah Hussain was grandson of a Hindu weaver who converted and within two generations had a fully Islamic name. Anyway, it looks very cynical of a Sufi while trying to bridge the gap between two civilizations through the message of love and peace and at the same time changing names from newly converts like Pali to Qurat-Ul-Ain and Bagga to Inzimam-Ul-Haq. Whatever happened to the love of the local vernacular and culture if they went around changing names right away.

Desi Muslims that includes Punjabi Muslims love to degrade and ignore their own and accepting Persian or Arabic in the name of religion. I do not know what Wedding Invitation Cards read in East Punjab but a typical card in West Punjab reads something like this (with little spice added by me): hamari dukhtar Aansa Heer Sial wald XYZ Khan Sial ka aqd Ranjha of Takht Hazara wald XYZ Khan Ranjha key hamrah morkha unteeeeeeeeees September yaani 15 ya 16 aur koi baeed naheeN 17 Jamadi-Us-Sani baad az namaaz asr hona qarar paya hey. Note: Ma siwa Aansa Heer Sial tamaam afrad ko lassi nosh farmaney kee mamanait ho gee".

The article "Al-Basant" on the front page is along the same line but I guess you can not read Shahmukhi script.

Neither I denied the message of love and peace by many Sufis nor did I suggest that Sufism was not responsible for converting most of our forefathers. What I objected to was combining these two as a reason for the conversion to Islam. I said that it is a myth among Muslims based on romanticism or what is known as delusions of the grandeur. Just think about the fact that many of the Suharwardiya Sufis in cluding Rukn-Uddin Shah Alam and Makhdoom Shah JahaniaN had aristocratic lifestyles without owning any land. Guess how did they afford this lifestyle? Wazifa from the rulers is the answer.

Same is true about caste system. I did make a point of relatively weaker caste system in Punjab as compared to UP and Bihar where conversion did not succeed as good. I tried to substabtiate my argument through variety of ways including history and logic. Therefore conversion took place independent of the caste system.

I have no idea as to how you concluded and included me among Muslim or Hindu Fundamentalists. Perhaps you did not read my other posts. The post coming following this one to Suman might clear youe impression of me being fundamentalist of any kind.

Question 2: “discussing cast system is attacking Hindu religion and should be avoided. a. kumar's appreciation by sameer indicates this. i might be wrong but this is the impression one gets.”

No sir, that is not right. Go back and read the relevant postings. Merely discussing caste system or criticizing it may not be an attack on Hindu religion if it is done in a proper way. The way it was claimed to be the cause of “degeneration” of Hindu society 1000 years ago and consequently the main cause of Ghauri’s military success in India (ignoring the real causes) was derogatory to Hindu religion. Why don’t you understand that? Kumar had given a good explanation and that should be enough. Do not keep on defending. Anyone can make a mistake, can be careless and insensitive or tactless in writing, just accept it. Let us not act as if when someone points out our mistake we must not rest until we have cleared our good name. My suggestion is very simple: Let go, please let go.

Qustion: 4: “consequently, smeer and saleem (along with kumar) has a common ground that (a) sufis had no social content other than spiritual uplifting ”

Same story. Rehashing what has been explained in detail. We are not denying the social content of Sufi’s message. But presenting it as the main, the one and only purpose of Sufism in combination with complete denial of their real purpose – their search for union with God - is wrong. And then extending this view to prove that sufi’s were nothing but social revolutionaries – that is wrong. Get it?

Finally, how presumptuous to say that “My last comment for now is that most participant on this discussion forum are punjabis who have not studied punjabi literature as they may have studied urdu and hindi.” They have, but they have not studied the text with only and only one purpose in mind – to prove that sufi’s were the forerunners of twentieth century revolutionaries. Even when reading Urdu/Hindi poetry they are smart enough to know the real meanings behind “sharab”and “saaqi” and “maykhana” instead of reaching sweeping conclusions by only looking at literal meanings.

But dear, why such desperation and appearing under different IDs? I wish we are not losing sleep on being challenged on this forum. It doesn’t look good. I recommend reading some Punjabi Sufi poetry in the right light to gain some wisdom and mental peace. Baba Farid’s Kalam can help in appreciating the true value of humility and the dangers of false pride.

Sajid, kaanu malookri jahi nu badnaam karee jaNde ho? ;-))

Very interesting discussion of the status of women going on, I will also write down a few thoughts later. Zahra, great post!

     Pao Bhangrey      _O_/     \_O_/    / ))       ((      \\       //      //       \\ 

Zahra, about your friend from rural area and conservative background....these people have the highest barriers to cross and when few them succeed it needs to be applauded. It is not the manzil, it is also the path you traveled for it. Results of Matriculation exam was declared couple of days ago in East Punjab. Guess what 3 of the top 4 were from schools of rural Punjab small towns and aaaaalllllll four...drumm rolls please..all 4 are girls.

To summerize sameer's argument I find the following: 1. cast system was broken and brought to end in Punjab by invaders when sufi (basically, i am only speaking of punjabi sufi poets) entered the scene. Therefore, they could have no or marginal imapact on Punjabi society as argued by manzur (manzur might be overblowing the impact a bit also).

2. discussing cast system is attacking Hindu religion and should be avoided. a. kumar's appreciation by sameer indicates this. i might be wrong but this is the impression one gets.

3. most sufis were intelligence dastas of muslim rulers and had no effective intellectual content. or they were mere spirtual leaders of muslims for internal safai as saleem has been arguing against manzur

. 4. consequently, smeer and saleem (along with kumar) has a common ground that (a) sufis had no social content other than spirtual uplifting or spying (b)crtical evaluation of religiously sanctioned social norms is wrong; neither muslim theocracy nor hindu cast system should be discussed for peacful co-existance.

I can go on with this to show how two fundamentalist thoughts (Muslim and Hindu) are finding common grounds. Is my assessment correct?

I will present my views later but i wanted to make sure i understood correctly. My last comment for now is that most participant on this discussion forum are punjabis who have not studied punjabi literature as they may have studied urdu and hindi. Therefore, no discussion takes place on Punjabi texts. I hope my impression is totally wrong.

When I see 5 waqat namaazi sikhs, hindus, muslims running around like crazy after materials, taking bribes, giving bribes, aborting girls, getting angry, getting sleepless just like other non-namaazis...your chinese friend sounds right.

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?sameer_feb1702

Kumar Sahib: Please keep contributing your thoughts. I found them very valuable. Don't you think it is unreasonable to expect 100+ million Punjabis to completely agree about everything? Sometime it is even beneficial for contributors as well as visitors to read opposing viewpoints and then think rationally keeping in mind the larger picture of better understanding. The broadness of Hinduism or indigenous Indian Philosophical thoughts has a history of accomodating and respecting opposite viewpoints such as relationship between Atman (self) and Brahman (absolute reality) during Upanishad period, relationship between causality and effect and dualism and non-dualism of the nature of reality during vedanta period and many other areas. I absolutely agree that ethical, moral and social laws, according to religions, are not independent of time and location.

On women's issues,let me share a personal story( I know you like these...even if they are a bit long to read:-P) that sent shivers through my spine few weeks ago. I know this couple...call them friends, relatives, neighbours whatever...but have been fairly close at times. The guy always portrayed himself liberal( was some times I observed), educated(he is)and very fair and honest person. They had 2 daughters in a row and from my limited interaction I felt that they were ok with it...in fact he told me once it does not matter to him and his family whether it is a girl or a boy. then few years has past and few weeks ago, one day news broke to me that they are almost close to divorce. issue: family of the guy and the guy wants a boy and have gone to some advanced medical treatment to "correct" the "problem" but has failed adding more financial strains to the relationship. That was a very rude awakening for me on how I could not judge these ppl for years. when I met that girl in the gurdwara(story below, from yesterday)...that was another feeling that came to my mind...why our girls ..beautiful, inteliigent, confident as little angels has to go through this trrbal attitude and desire of ours to have multiple sons like we are some kind of maharajas. I can understand(better than many) the desire to have a son or daughter by a parent but at the cost of dumping your partner who has already bore you two beautiful lives and spent years of her life dedicated to you...how can one live through that deceitful and lowest level of thought/act? yet our ancestors and we have been doing it from days unknown. Girls have become an unwanted "thing", women only a means to give us sons that can fight our shareeks or guys from accross the border. Desire to have sons is found in many other people also..however girls don't devstate them and wrech theri lives but the way Punjabis have been doing it at the cost of girls makes me sick. The pre-netal testing and then abortion of unborn girls amongst Punjabis has reached the land of equal opportunities America also! It is not limited to Ludhiana anymore. New York has it, LA and Yubacity have it too..we have it everywhere we go.

now how a girl that can't live in her mothers womb by her choice can live to be 25 yr old Seema Sarwar and make choices?

"In spite of well over three centuries of almost unbroken rule, the famished Indian peasant wrote lungi and ate khichri and frequently shifted his hamlet and village to avoid the wrath of nature and the tyranny of the state. He (the people) lost all sense of pleasure, his genius was stunted, his mind was subdued and his heart became rude" noted Babur, on Indian affairs from the epitaph of the Delhi Sultanates, in Babur Namah.

Now about Jasrat:

The invasion of Timur exposed the hollowness of Delhi Sultanate in north India. A large number of leaders of native rose up and some even supported Timur out of disgust for Sultanate. The chief of Khokhar (Gakkhars according to some historians) tribe named Shaikha was one of them. After the fall of Delhi at the hands of Timur, Shaikha defected and captured Lahore. Timur recaptured Lahore on his way back from Delhi, got Shaikha beheaded on March 5, 1399 and took his son Jasrat to Samarkand as a captive. After the death of Timur, Jasrat escaped from his prison, returned home, assumed the leadership of his tribe and set himself up at Sialkot. This was the beginning of a remarkable career, lasting almost 40 years, which began during Mahmud Tughlaq reign but most of it occurred during the reign of Syeds (Sadat) Sultanate.

His first act was to side with Shahi Khan against Ali Shah in the civil war in Kashmir. The backing of victorious Shahi Khan made Jasrat powerful and well equipped to conceive of conquering Delhi. He was joined by another great rebel, Tughan Rai, who had just lost a rebellion against Syed Khizar Khan (Founder of Syeds Sultanate). Together they swooped across the rivers Ravi, Sutlej and Beas and defeated the governor of Ludhiana, Rai Kamal-ud-din Firoz at Talwandi. Encouraged by the victory, he captured areas as far as Ropar and laid siege to Jullundhar. The new Sultan, Syed Mubarak Shah moved against him in October 1421, retaking most of the area from Jasrat but failed to capture him.

In the next act of his career, he assaulted Lahore in May 1422 with a large force which apparently he had no difficulty in collecting from his hideout in the hills surrounding Jammu (an indication of widespread discontent and frustration with the rulers). He tried twice but each time was defeated by Lahore governor, Mahmud Hassan, with help from Raja Bhim of Jammu.

In April 1423, Jasrat emerged from his abode, attacked Raja Bhim of Jammu (a supporter of Sultanate) and killed him. Not only did he remove a thorn from his side, but also took possession of large reserves of arms and treasure, increasing his strength. With a force of 10,000-12,000 strong, he sacked Lahore and Dipalpur. When governor of Punjab, Malik Sikander Tuhfa encountered him with a much larger force, Jasrat promptly withdrew from the contest. In 1427, he saw a window of opportunity when royal armies were busy in quelling the uprising in Mewat and Bayana. He appeared from his hideout and laid siege to Kalanaur. The Sultan deputed a large army against him but just before its arrival, Jasrat retreated to his abode.

In 1430, a slave of Syeds, Faulad Turkbaccha, revolted against Syeds, allured ruler of Kabul, Shaikh Ali, for help. The Khokhars, under the leadership of a minor leader Ain-ud-Din joined Shaikh Ali during his attacks on Punjab, Malik Sikander Tuhfa and Syeds Sultanate. Taking advanatage of the weakened Sultanate position, Jasrat reemerged from the hills, crossed rivers Chenab, Ravi and Beas, defeating Malik Sikander Tuhfa at Jullundhar in 1431. He arrested Malik Tuhfa and recaptured Lahore. As usual, when Sultan marched from Delhi with a large force, Jasrat had no option but to withdraw.

As soon as, Sultan withdrew and moved his armies to Gwalior and Bayana to quell another rebellion, Jasrat captured Lahore for the third time in 1432, from remaining Sultanate armies. And once again he had to retreat with the arrival of fresh Sultnate armies. In 1433, Sultan Syed Mubarak Shah replaced Nusrat Khan with Allahabad Kaka Lodhi as the governor of this region. Jasrat, immediately took the advantage of changeover, marched to Bajwara and defeated the new governor. Sultan Syed Mubarak Shah was assassinated in 1434.

The rise of Bahlol Lodhi that ultimately led to the changeover of Sultanate from Syeds to Lodhis also marks an end of a remarkable career of Jasrat. He was getting old and saw no chance of fulfilling his dream of eliminating the yoke of Turkish/ Afghan rule over sub-continent. As a last resort, he made a pact with Bahlol Lodhi promising not to interfere with Bahlol's design to capture the throne in return for Bahlol not attacking Jasrat's people and hometown on both sides of lower river Jhelum. Jasrat died in 1442.

Now this was the period that saw greatest conversion to Islam. Whether to consider him a hero, a trouble maker or a rebel is ome question Punjabis must think about. And the poor grip, Delhi Sultanate had in Punjab that a rebel can rise up from lower river Jhelum, sets up his headquarter in Sialkot and influences as far as Kashmir is the other question. Obviously his support was not limited to Gakkhar tribe only.

Thank you.

Laggi Nazar Aj Forum Nu Koi Aan Utaaro
Lai Ke Mirchaan Koriaan Ehde Sir To Vaaro
Sukho Ni Khand Paath Chalihey Sukho Ni
Koi Matt Di Leh Jaaye Gehar Ni.

All Tu Jalaal TuNa Matt Nu Bohut Hangaal Tu

KOI TE PYAR MOHABBAT DA THANDA JEHA BULLA AAON DEYO KE GUJHIYAAN LOYAAN NAAL SABH DA ANDR-BAHR LUHNDE RAHOGE.Paani Chon Madhaani Kadh Chado

Daad Friyaad ik Nimaane Di

Ishq Di Navion Navin Bahar

Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
When I learnt the lesson of love,
My heart dreaded the sight of mosques.
I then entered the abode of the Lord,
Where resounded a thousand melodies.
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
When I grasped the hint of love,
I banished ‘mine’ and ‘thine’ from me.
I was cleansed within and without.
Now, wherever I look, the Beloved pervades.
Ever new, ever fresh, is the spring of love!
Heer and Ranjha are united at last!
Deluded Heer had sought him in woods,
While beloved Ranjha played in her veil.
Before Him I lost my sense and wits.
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
I am sick of reading Vedas and Qura’ns;
My forehead is worn off by constant obeisance.
God is not found at Hindu shrines,
nor at Muslims’ Mecca.
Whosoever found, found Him as Light of lights.
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
Burn the prayer-mat, break the iota,
And touch not the rosary, nor the staff.
The lovers proclaim at the top of their voice:
“Give up halal and eat murdar!”
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!

[A designation for certain dervishes who cultivate the reprobation (a morally unprincipled person) of the conventional social sphere.]

I think malamati sufi is a terms bestowed upon certain sufis by others while chishtiya, qadriya etc are added on by sufis themselves depending on their teacher and practices. Your suggestion of dirty outside and clean inside may be true. A follower of a malamati sufi will undoubtedly believe in the pristine innerself otherwise what will be the point of following him. Malamati sufi is the term, sometime used to appreciate the other qualities of a person besides moral or Islamic. An example is famous Urdu poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz. He was a leftist/ communist, probably athiest and consumed alcohol. Many Islamists openly called him dehrya (athiest). But out of his literary qualities, another somewhat right-wing author named Ashfaq Ahmed thought that Faiz was really a malamati sufi. One only knows the deep inside when one opens it to others.

Look, most folks on this board seem to be educated, many live out of Punjab, (wherever that might be) and ALL have opinions. Dime a dozen. Nothing wrong with that particularly on a discussion forum. "Try to see each religion as its believer would" somebody said, and surely that applies to a number of other areas as well. But when a tone is aggressive and the words are insulting it is absolutely not possible to take that person or their opinion seriously. What are we? A bunch of apes gnashing their teeth at each other?

If I were a lower caste Hindu duging 1200-1500 CE, with my livelihood depended on the services and dole outs from upper caste, I would have to be out of my mind to convert to Islam, being singled out by the bread provider Hindus leading to more hardships than before. Even the people of my own caste might have rejected me. On top of that, now I would have had to spent more time in rituals than ever before, spending more on killing goat once a year, fasting a month - all because a Sufi is spreading the message of peace and love. Too much input with speculative output in distant future which never materialized. Just one generation of converts from lower castes or any caste would have accummulated enough hardships with no rewards to set a practical example for everybody to not succumb to the sweet talk of love and peace. The conversion could not have been bottom up because it defies simple logic. It was top down and only accelerated when it was backed by the rulers.

There is around 300 years difference between first Muslims entering Indus Valley (MB Qasim) and Ghaznavi attacks. Muslims were already ruling out of Multan for couple of centuries with allegiances to Sunni, Shia and Islamili dynasties. They sent out out missioneries with the message of love and peace throughout "caste-ridden Punjab" befor Ghaznavi attack with almost no success. Both Ghaznavi and Ghauri met stiff resistabce from gakkhars and awans repeatedly until they could not fight anymore. At that weak moment, a Sufi Syed Qutb Shah came in handy with mesage of peace and equality, converting tribal elders and rest is history. Because of this early conversion, the area between Indus and Jhelum was almost 80 percent Muslims in 1947 and Master Tara Singh proposed this area to be excluded from Punjab, leaving Hindu-Muslim-Sikh population roughly equal in the remaining Punjab. Punjab was the melting pot for different migrating and invading tribes and every group bringing in new ideas. It made Punjabis more accustiom to new ideas and to accomodate the new ideas and people, a paradigm or framework or a constitutioin namely caste system was developed or accepted. It became all incorporating to the constant change in demography and social structure. Of course, once in power, be they upper caste of Hindus or Meccan elite (Ummayids and Abbasids who ruled Muslim world for 500 years), they made sure to keep milking the system.

It was Punjabi openness or accomodation of new people and ideas through millenia (Aryans, Persians, Greek, Scythians, Huns) which made Buddhism more successful in Punjab than rest of India, Bhagti movement more successful, Sikhism more successful and conversion to Islam more successful. Budhism succeeded more under Budhist rulers and Islam succeeded more under Islamic rulers.

I will send the remaining portion later as e-mail to you.

P.S.Maybe I can ask similar question like the one asked by Manzur Ejaz: "A simple question: Why Hindus,Sikhs and people of other religions have equal reverence for these thinkers? Why their message cuts accross religious boundries?" Answer: Because in indigenous desi traditions, according sainthood to ascetics and social activists is easy and the decision is made at local level.

My question is: Why do Muslims not have same reverence for great Hindu proponents of love and peace? Why didn't their message cuts across religious boundries? Ramananda, Namdeva, Tukarum (sp?), Dadu (perhaps a born-Muslim), Kabir,........

ps: Suman ji, I just remembered something.. I think I put it in the waiting line and then totally forgot about it. will get back soon.

My dad used to use all kinds of examples to teach me about life, being the simple 'Jatt' he was (nothing wrong in having a sense of pride in your own particular succint identity, as long as its not used as a tool to measure worth by, to put down others, or as a part of the wretched caste system, yes Jatts were told what caste they fell into, they were sandhu's dhillon's etc before that)that he was, using, usually very simple terminology. I used to laugh at the time thinking Dad is that the best you could come up with, yet now I treasure the simplicity of what he taught me. I am recalling a story where he was teaching me about the dangers of bad company, maaree sangat, and he said je fridge de vich koi maaree galee hoi cheez rakhoonge, te baaki da sab kuj vee kharaab ho jaana!

Loko, ethe na eh kamm haun devo..pyaar naal rayiye, te gaahaN kuj kar paavaaNge. Kee khyaal towada??? Eh goori goori angrezi, te urdu gets on my nerves as well. You're right Suman, its nothing to be particularly proud of. I was born and raised in the UK, I could sit here and write pages of rhethoric, and fancy English, and watch my grammar, yet its more important what is being written, and that everyone can understand easily. Wouldn't that be English with Punjabi colour? Punjabi being the common man's language. Kuj kehna te nahi see chaundi lekin as Manzur Ejaz says Enough is Enough! I'm probably going to get an onslaught after this, but really who cares, someone had to say something!

According to some historical accounts (there are other competing accounts, too) the caste system in India evolved as a result of the invasion of Aryans in 1500-2000BC, who brought with them “Caucasian genes, a new religion, a new pantheon of gods and a new language – the Sanskrit” ( Zaman, Viqar. “Racism- Ancient and Modern, 2002). Some archeological evidences claim that in pre-Aryan period the Indian society was not so strictly caste stratified, however there must have been some kind of social differentiation system. The conquered locals were declared untouchable and the conquerors always kept a social distance. As a matter of fact, the keeping of social distance was maintained during all the Muslim monarchies and the British colonialists.

The Aryan-non-Aryan vertical differentiation was sanctified by religion (the 10th book of Reg Veda), which ultimately developed into the four castes system. There socio-economic ranking (along with rewards and punishments) was strictly defined. Sociologically speaking, it is (was) a closed social system where social mobility between castes is (was) strictly prohibited. The status or social position of a member of a caste group is (was) determined on the basis of his/her birth and inherited by the next generation. It was ordained by the religion and the institution of religion generally has an overwhelming sway over the lives of members of a society at a lower level of social formation (pre-capitalist), masses in general might have took it a natural way of living (a false consciousness). In the modern Indian context, the false consciousness became a challenge for Gandhi Ji who called caste system, the “greatest blot on Hinduism.” He struggled against it all his life but…….. In the South, Dr. Ambedkar’s struggle (a leader of untouchables) for the socio-economic emancipation of untouchables is worth mentioning. The high caste groups were particularly very cruel to untouchable in some areas of the South India. They made them to “wear bells to warn high caste Hindus that they were coming. A Brahman was believed to become dirty or polluted even if the shadow of a low-caste fell on them.” He suggested them to convert to Buddhism. In the recent past there has been conversion of whole groups to Islam, which was fiercely, objected by some extremist Hindu groups, such as VHP, Bajrang dal etc.. (By the way Saleem Ji, Ashoka the great also converted as a Buddhist). Saleem Ji! I openly claim that I subscribe to secular philosophy (not in the sense of ‘Atheism’ as it has been vulgarly translated in Urdu). I strongly believe that everyone has right to subscribe to any set of religious beliefs and this right of a person should be boldly defended. However, I do not believe in the imposition of religion as an ideology at the collective societal level. Especially for you, I am posting one of ‘Kaafi’. I hope you will not take it personal.

............”KAAFI”............

SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN
NaaN nafrat bhaaNbhaR baal mullaaN

AkheeN chaRhya rang musti da
Sidq adraak hoya hasti da
Noori roop sathooN basti da
Te tooN bhit-neiN saadi chaal mullaaN
...SaanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN

Ishq shodaaee naam dharaaya
Kan paRwaae, kaasa chaaya
Ranjhan jogi heer sadaaya
AzlaaN de laj-paal mullaaN
...SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN

Piyaar asaade loon loon rachya
Ang ang surt da bhaaN-bhaR machya
Oho kita jheRha jichya
Hoye kundan laal mullaaN
...SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN

Bullhe Shah sanooN ramzaaN dasda
Samajh pavay te khiR khiR hasda
Mankh naheiN zingdi de chas da
Ishq je saadi bhaal mullaaN

...SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN
...NaaN nafrat bhaaN-bhaR baal mullaaN

(I am not left with any energy to proof-read it, so ...)

And, yes, I'm not happy with Dalits getting reserved seats because reservation should be based on need (e.g. poverty), not caste.

And, I didn't break any mottos 'cause I am an American and I have every right to talk about the social system in my own country.

Caste system is uplifting the lower castes now through reservation? May I ask who dropped them down there to start with? If their role as shoodars was good for the society then why uplift them now? It is not caste system that created reservations, but the anti-caste system...the united legislation of all the people who said enough is enough. First caste system discrimnates and exploits the dalits...for the good of the society..now it uplifts them..for the good of society. tomorrow it might move them sideways for the good of society. wah kiya logic hai.[BTW I got the impression that you don't seem very happy with dalits getting "all the" seats in medical and engineering. is that correct?]

I don't want to bring Amercian system into this discussion. that is whole diff subject...In other words I will follow your motto(that you broke yourself just before advising me on)and keep that judgement in check:-)

Kairon was a very blunt man..he also said "jatt te suhaagay te charheya nai maan hunda te main cheif minister aan".:-)

No jatts were not forced to farming...in fact they chose to do so initially...but caste hierarchy in general is a trap where you fall as soon as you are born and getting out of that is not in your control most of the times.

On another note, are you suggesting that agriculture was forced on Jatts by the caste system? I'm pretty sure that farming existing prior to the invention of a caste system. Farming is tough in general and no system has anything to do with it.

As I lifted my head up and looked ahead, she was standing next to me...trying to find a place to sit...wearing a dress upto her knees, head covered with a little rumaal, her round radiating face, beautiful big eyes..slightly brownish and a priceless smile on her face, her personality beaming with confidence...she sat next to me....right near my left knee..a little ahead of me. She placed the napkin in her lap and made a goal laddoo out of parshaad with her beautiful hands and took the first bite while looking at me and smiling. I was thinking about saying hi to her...just break the ice and start a conversation...but as happens with me at most of such occasions I was in a fix...what to say..what to ask?...I was still thinking that she turned towards me and with big smile on her face said "hi, yesterday was my brithday....I am now 5". I was glad she started talking..I congratulated on her brithday and asked her whether she goes to school. She replied back in a very excited voice " yes..I have finished my kindergarden...and I am going to first grade soon...you know I am already sudying the first grade at home..so that when I go to school I will already know all that they have to teach"...she giggled a little and said " that way I can be first...hey hey hey"....her innocence, confidence and sweetness was brimming out and was all over me. I was feeling like I have met God or something. Such a lovely soul...I asked her name...Jaspreet....she did not lose the turn and asked me right away in the same breath..and what is your name?...Jagjit...she giggles, tilts her head slightly, rolls her eyes.....veeeeeeeerrrryyy similar. She was amused at the rhyming of our names. I asked what does she want to be when she go to school....Doctor!...hmmm why?.....well...I like to help people..I help my grand mother and my mother all the time...you know doctors help people all the time..thats what they do..so I want to be doctor.

We talked few other things and I was amazed at her confidence and the way she can hold the conversation like adults and still be little innocent angel at the same time. Few people sitting next to us were not that appreciative of noise of our conversation...and in the meantime her father came down the aisle and singaled her with his head to get up and follow him...she stood on her knees to get up and said..ok nice meeting you. and with that she left with her father..who was probably going straight to the langar hall.(now what a great idea that was...otherwise half of us would be eating fatty bergers at Macdonalds on Sunday afternoons)...and with that she left me with my thoughts..what a soul full of life and bundle of joy! as I got up myself to leave few minutes later, a prayer came to mind spontaneously...Waheguru bless you my sweetheart!

He is not defending caste system in today’s world. He has only pointed out that in the past it has played a positive role. There were many reason’s why Muslim’s were able to establish their Sultanat in India. Putting all the blame on the “degeneration of Indian society by caste system” at the time of Ghauri’s attack and disregarding all other reasons smells like a religious bias. It amounts to sayings that Ghauris had a superior religion that was better then the Hindu religion that has degeneration of society. It was a win of superior religion on the inferior one.

Before the famous attacks of Mahmud Ghaznavi, that preceded Ghauri, there were two quite long standing and highly successful Hindu dynasties (based on caste system) that very ably ruled Northern India, Mauriyas and Guptas. After the decline of Guptas, Northern India was split among numerous small states. That was the main reason that Ghazni was able to loot India so freely in the 9th century. After his devastating attacks on Northern India, it was simply a walk over by Ghauri.

If Kumar objects to this highlighting of the degeneration effect of cast system as the main cause of Ghuari’s success, he is right on the mark. It is easier for a Sikh or Muslim to totally, completely trash cast system and deny any positive role it has played in the long gone times in Indian history. They can take the high moral ground. But once someone will start pointing out what they believe is wrong in other’s religion, it will become an unending debate. So may be the best way will be that we should at least be sensitive to each other’s religious feelings instead of trying to impress others with our scholarly credentials so blindly and insensitively on this non/religious non/political forum. I am disappointed that one particular learned participant continues his practice of putting his intellectual spin on everything without any regard to our religious feelings. Kumar a correctly asked for an apology and he deserves one.

Now let us go back to the original question and please explain to us point by point all the "positive contributions" of caste system to the society. Please support your answers with stats and testimonials of shooders. Such a great system should not stay undiscovered, it should be implemented world wide.:-)

but I got the chance to watch on and off...so many new names..particularly jatts...lagda saare maraasi bann jaan ge

similarly, there was a Jatt bhagat Baba Jallan ji

So, please don't say anything to Kumar because he's right. The mere fact that the system has survived for over 2000 years tells you that it serves its peoples' needs just fine. Manzur: There was no great country known as India before 1947. Even in 1947, there were 500+ independent princely states in India. So, yeah, the country was divided, but not by the caste system, but because of so many different kingdoms. What Professor Habib of Ali Gharh University needs to look at it is that the Afgans defeated a tribe or two, not an entire nation (there was no such thing!!) And, on top of everything else, this a discussion forum; try discussing (conversating with people) something instead of posting pages and pages of theories copied from books.

dasso hunn aithey banda ki karlooga? eho jihay danishvar vi duniya te baithey ne.ki banu duniya da sacha paadshah waheguru jaane.

JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee

Waqt Handaya Umar Handaaee
ThaaN ThaaN Apni Jind Rulaaee
Hosh GaNwaya Aqal GaNwaaee
JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee

Kam Aawan Na Kujh TadberaaN
KhaidaaN KhaiddiaaN TaqderaaN
Pal Pal Haasay Pal Pal PeeRaaN
Kee Sufnay Kee Hunn Ta’beraaN

SouchaaN Day Wich Souch GaNwaaee
JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee

Din Dhalda Din ChaRhda Jaway
Ek Rut Aaway Ek Rut Jaway
Aay Wailay De Chaki Guhm Guhm
Har Zee Roh NouN Mar Mukaway

Kat Kat Chillay Jot Jagaaee
JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee

1. was the medium (words, color,notes)used in a masterful manner?

2. Are we touched or moved by the contents - ie does it reach us emotionally.

3. Does it tell us something that is universally true? ie. something that is morally and intellectually satisfying.

Try to see any great artist, of any medium, using these criteria and you will observe its validity. By the way, I am not maroing my opinion, these are stated criteria in judging art. If the Punjabi sufi poets have survived the centuries and are still read, it is not because they may have had certain beliefs, but because they created works of art that state, in beautiful words, universal truths.

Zahra ji dhaan bhaag saade ke roj towade vargi azeem hasti de darshan hunde ne. Inj hee hundi rahi te saare paap dhote jaanE a. Bahut meharbani towadi! :-))

Saleem ji, I respect your opinions and its extremely interesting to get different viewpoints and obviously all Punjabi's do not think alike, just a humble suggestion, perhaps not a good idea to get so aggressive. Jine pyaar naal gal kariye, ohnee jiada mauRe sunee jaandi e, theek e na? JIven kehnde hunde ne, gusse naal jinna marzi laraa lao, pyaar naal jinaa marzi manaa lao! :-)) I was reading past posts, reading March 28th, and your love for Punjabiat is so obvious so I for one hope you stick around. Whearas there are certain people, whom you also seemed to have recognized for what they are, at least back in March, that I wish would just use their ears a little more than their voices.

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