This forum has been discontinued.

On a more serious note, I think the time has come to move on to a better format for discussions before more of this happens. This post was obviously what is known as a "flame bait" or just some sicko out of his anti-depressant medication..

Sajid veer jee, does the new forum log the IP addresses of the participants, so that the IPs of obscene/flame posts can be banned. I think as new and random people join discussions, it will certainly be an issue.

also, when you delete that yuvraj post please delete mine too, I forgot to add "sarcasm" tags to it. hee hee...
rajeev

Name:

rajeev - July 04 2004

E-mail:

Dear YuvrajLuver

Jee aayaan noon. Welcome to the forum. Keep posting your enlightened obeservations from time to time. I have forwarded the note to all the "Hindus" and they have promised that they will not do Bhangra any more. The irrefutable "Hollywood Bollywood" evidence actually won the argument.

Any tips for "Kuthris" to improve their Bhangra skills? (that does not involve conversion!) Waiting for your reply and blessings!

rajeev

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - July 04 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Safir Ji Pls delete the post of Mr YuvrajLuver. It really hurts all Punjabis rather.

Name:	Rupe - July 02 2004
E-mail:	Rupe@panindia.com
Location:	London, Uk
Comments:	This Investement had from India is the very type of thing that should not make it to this discussion forum, and proves what I say. It is pure spam. Poorah Vakwass hai!

Name:	Rupinder - July 02 2004
E-mail:	Rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Dear Dosto Please do not take offence, but some comments Not withstanding the fact that this site main muxath is to promote Punjabi in West Punjab, it would be nice if it paid equal attention to East Punjab and �World Punjab�. Its cross secular style is brilliant, but sometimes I find a Punjabi novice like myself( who is trying to return to the fold) is put off by either too much concentration on the banal, and low brow, or the other extreme, high brow. Whilst I accept the Sufi period is Punjabi�s Shakespearean equivalent, for some of us unpars it can be above our heads. That said, the website gives the impression that it is about literature, but it only discusses the above high brow stuff. How about Punjabi for beginners like my self? Even in English there is post Dickensian Literature. Being British Colloquial speaking I would find it much easier to understand 20th Century and 21st Century Literature. It would be nice to have discussions on this, and see more articles actually about Literature from our Time, (either Pakistan, India or elsewhere) on the website. Another factor is that people like myself for whom Punjabi is a second language, find it occasionally easier to use an English / roman using website, which is why I partly come here. It would be nice if APNA took my generations ideas seriously, and suggested a standard easier to view Roman Punjabi format. Another fact is that new Punjabi Patois� have been born. I write in one of them ( Panglish , if you wish). We Diaspora Punjabis take the language albeit our versions, more seriously than the bollywoodised India and Urduised Pakistani ones do. So please it would be nice to see survey relating to our patios, and their contributions to Punjabi and reviews on these matters. Please keep politics and religion out It would be nice if projects, in my case new words, are taken seriously, and at least discussed in Punjabi Media in Pakistan and India, to see if they help the language. Panjabi does need some new sophisticated words to fight Urdu and English. I admit it use to take decades, but believe me in modern Media it takes months ( English has hundreds of new words invented each day, and quickly accepts them) . For example in the UK the word Safe in English has evolved into Punjabi Youth Usage Patois word Saif which now means the same at set or theek taak does in Native Punjab. These should make it into a dictionary It would be nice to see a section recommending latest literature from Pakistan and India with reviews also, as well as competitions to get Diaspora and Original Punjabi to write poems, and modern short stories to publish on this excellent website. I hope you do not mind my comments Rab rakka Rupe

Name:	Saeed - July 02 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear friends, any of you can answer this mail which I received from one of my friends: I would be needing ur advice and help from time to time about a WEST Punjabi software project:- brief overview of the tasks to be completed for the Punjabi projects: Reviewing the Punjabi text and the English translation Diacritics-entering diacritics to each word in the Punjabi text Entering word translations in English for each Punjabi word Entering root word forms for each Punjabi word Annotation- Assigning grammatical information to each Punjabi word using our formatted grammar tree created especially for the Punjabi language. Testing the Punjabi Keyboard to make sure that all the characters, diacritics, and special symbols are present. Also, that they all can be typed and displayed correctly in all their forms.

Name:	Amol Kamal Singh Randhawa - July 02 2004
E-mail:	aksrandhawa@yahoo.co.in
Location:	amritsar, punjab INDIA
Comments:	I M VERY HAPPY THAT EVEN STAYING IN A FORIENG COUNTRY PEOPLE R TRYING TO PROMOTE TOUR OWN PUNJABI CULTURE. HERE WHILE IN INDIA WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR OWN ROOTS AND GETTING SUCKED IN THE SWAMP OF WESTERNIZATION.MY BEST WISHES TO APNA.

Name:	EX-MAJOR LAL KHAN BHATTI - July 01 2004
E-mail:	majorlalkhanbhatti@yahoo.co.uk
My URL:	http:// ......N.A
Location:	KARACHI, sindh PAKISTAN
Comments:	DEARS! I WRITE TELEVISION DRAMA IN URDU.I CAN SUB-TITLE MY 104 MINUTE DRAMA "GURA RANI" IN PUNJABI...MY THIS INNOVATIVE / LIGHT "PLAY" WAS WTITTEN / PRODUCED / DIRECTED BY ME 6 YEAR BACK... I COULD NOT MARKET THE "SOFTWARE" FOR MANY RESONS / BEYOND MY CONTROLE. THE CAST IS FANTASTIC...ROOHI BANO + IMTIAZ TAJ AS GUEST STARS...OTHER MAIN CAST* AAZRA SADEEQ, BEHROZ SABZWARI, QAZI WAJAD, TASHFEEN ZAIDI, HINA KHAN,IFTKHAR QURESHI, KAMRAN MUGHAL, KALSOOM SULTAN, SHEHNI AZEEM, WARIS, RASHIDA YAQOOB AND DANCE MASTER YAQOOB...THIS TELE-FILM HAS UNIQUE THEME...FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION (WHICH DOES NOT EXIST IN THE THIRD-WORLD COUNTRIES}... I INTEND TO MARKET THIS GLOBALY AND CAN SUB-TIYLE IN THIRTY LEADING LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD...IF "APNA" CAN HELP, I CAN DISH-OUT 25 PERCENT INCOME TO APNA FOR THE PROMOTIONAL ACTIVITIES OF PUNJABI CULTURE / LANGUAGE. I HAVE MORE THAN 90 SCRIPTS READY TO BE SHOT (DIFFERENT SUBJECTS / THEMES)...VARIOUS DURATIONS. I HAVE BEEN TO MORE THAN 60 COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD AND 60+...WITH PLENTY OF ZEAL / ENDURANCE. PLEASE SUGGEST... BEST REGARDS, BHATTI

Name:	Rupe - July 01 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Some Free Punjabi Novels on net http://thepunjabi.com/pdf/d1.pdf http://thepunjabi.com/pdf/gasso4.pdf http://thepunjabi.com/pdf/d2.pdf http://thepunjabi.com/pdf/d5.pdf

Name:	Akhilesh - June 30 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL:
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Good idea Rupe,

Name:	Rupinder Dhillon - June 30 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Dear Suman Ji, I have an idea of how we might be able to overcome thi in standardised Roman. The textbook I used ( admittedly teaching gurumukhi) in the Uk, gave each Gurmukhi letter a english symbol, with a small n at the end of a word assumed to be like apna's big N. Also ch was underlined to represent the sound as in number 6, and not where it was like as in chacha ji. And so forth. I have always based my roman sentences on it, and as underscore gets rid of caps, it makes it easier to follow. Regards Rupinder

Name:	suman - June 30 2004
E-mail:	suman@what.com
Comments:	Sukhbir Ji. Javed Ji has put into words my thoughts after I read your post. Is there a standardized template of romanized punjabi? I happen to think that the use of too many caps is not conducive to a smooth reading of the script but I suppose that is just a matter of getting used to it. Anyway too many vowels all strung together is also not the answer. I have struggled with romanizing for many years ( and please disregard the attempt that is on the APNA website as many changes have been made since then)and have not found any method that is genuinely satisfying. Anyway, if you can lay your hands on a template I would like to take a look.

Name:	Rupe - June 30 2004
E-mail:	Rupe@panindia.com
My URL:	http://www.edexcel-international.org/qualifications/QualificationAward.aspx?id=49341
Location:	Lon, UK
Comments:	Another website related to teaching of Punjabi. This is the UK Punjabi syllabus

Name:	Rupinder - June 30 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
Location:	Lon, UK
Comments:	Deirdre Martin, Mangat Bhardwaj, Ramesh Krishnamurthy, The University of Birmingham Language change in young Panjabi/English learners -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This paper investigates the relationship between developing languages in young Panjabi/English speakers in established transplanted communities in England, looking in particular at the emergence of a "mixed" British Panjabi code, which seems to be strongly influenced by English in a variety of ways. A cohort of 50 bilingual Panjabi/English learners participated, aged 6-7 years, balanced for gender, from schools in the west Birmingham area of the UK. The language samples in both languages* were collected in school across three different contexts for different purposes: by a formal procedure of expressive spoken language, story-telling, and talking about their feelings of being bilingual. The paper presents corpus and discourse analyses of language change in aspects of Panjabi, including lexis, connectives and clause structure, which demonstrate features of new language change. They also illustrate aspects of language evolution which may or may not be due to contact with English. The effects of gender and school are also presented. *Children's data were collected through an ESRC funded project (grant no. R000221501) into phonological processing in bilingual children, and the analysis of data was funded by a Leverhulme Fellowship, both held by D. Martin at the School of Education, University of Birmingham, UK.

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 30 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Sukhbir Jee. Kise nuN apni maaN-boli di likhaaee te wadhaai dena acharaj lagde. KehNde neiN zubaan te bache di ragaaN vich maaN de duddh naal aaNdi e per ohde vich chaashni te chuss bharna te ohnuN aala darje te pohNchaana sirf ik kala-kaar da kam e. Tusi Panjabi de kala-kaar o te es lei saaDe walloN vi wah-wah qabool karo. Ik gal kehNa chahaaN ga tusi di roman likhaai vich saaDe saryaaN koloN thhoRe vekhre akhar wertde O, ehdi koyee wajah? Agar aseeN ik standard roman script ee wartye te mere khiyaal vich saaryaan lei DaDha sokhh rehsi.

Name:

sardarz - June 29 2004

E-mail:

nhuyuy@hg.com

Dil dukheya udoN hi
Uhda cheta aya jadon vi
Jazbaat,payaar,apna parchawan
Ki kahanN ki devaN naa Uhnu
uH hai vi ke nehi asal vich
Ajae ehvi mainu hisaab nahin

Ki dosh si es nimani hond da
ke udd da khilr da, sshaar da haneriyaN
kujh es taraN banayea mainoo
ke karna peya shreeka aapnia hi neendraan naal

Kini hai hor te kini hai kattnee
Ehi hisaab hai gunjlaaN
Jihne si karh-hee eh jind peeraN hari
Uhvee sochda hovega thoDi rakh hath te
Eh ki keeta mein vichrae niyaanae naal

Name:	Abul Fazal Mahmud - June 29 2004
E-mail:	afmahmud@yahoo.com
Location:	Parkton, MD USA
Comments:	The following was published in Daily News in Pakistan in connection with the controversy about mother tongue of PaNjabis in Pakistan kicked off by the Urdu crusader Prof. Fateh Muhammad Malik:- Print - Close Window Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:09:50 -0400 From: SMAHMUD@qis.net To: afmahmud@yahoo.com Subject: Fwd: [Writers_Forum] Language, gentlemen ----- Forwarded message from Munir Saami ----- Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:02:05 -0400 From: Munir Saami Reply-To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Writers_Forum] Language, gentlemen To: writers_forum@yahoogroups.com Language, gentlemen Urdu took root in Punjab under British patronage. The policy of letting it flourish at the cost of the province's own language continues even today http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html By Dr Tahir Kamran Indian Punjab's Chief Minister Captain Amrinder Singh recently suggested to his Pakistani counterpart Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi that Punjabi should be medium of instruction in the Pakistani Punjab. The remarks made during the former's visit to Lahore have elicited a lively debate. Professor Fateh Muhammad Malik, who heads National Language Authority, in a couple of articles in an Urdu daily has come out openly against the idea. Trying to establish a link between Islam, Punjab and Urdu, he relegates Punjabi to a crude early version of Urdu. According to his point of view, Punjabi is devoid of any potential to serve as a medium of instruction either for literature or sciences. Mushir Anwar only reiterates the point made by Professor Malik when he talks of 'Urdu's qibbla-e-awwal' and dubs Punjab as Urdu's 'first hatchery.' The substantial part of Professor Malik's interpretation seems to be a re-narration of Hafiz Mehmud Sherani's view as presented in his renowned essay 'Punjab Main Urdu' which tries to trace the origin of Urdu in Punjab. If this thesis is accepted as being true, the standpoint of those historians of Urdu literature and language becomes completely invalid who have been continuously pleading that Urdu was first born in Hyderabad Deccan, Lucknow and Delhi. Also, if Professor Malik's argument is bought, then the whole backdrop of Muslim history and civilization in the Indian subcontinent will have to be re-contextualised. All the renowned historians and scholars of medieval India clearly maintain that plains of the Ganges and the Jamuna acted not only as an administrative centre for Muslim rule in India, they also served as the wellspring of what is called as Indo-Muslim culture. Because more often than not, administrative centres determine the cultural modes and the ways of their articulations. Punjab, despite its strategic and cultural significance, had never been the cultural centre for the Muslims of the subcontinent. It is, therefore, that the language that represented the Muslim ethos, cannot sprout and flourish at the periphery where the Punjab was actually located in Muslim India. Besides, any historian of the subcontinent will find it absolutely bizarre if the contributions of Fort William College, Calcutta, and John Gilchrist in the evolution of Urdu are not mentioned. Professor Malik has supported his argument with references to the editorials and articles published in Lahore-based Urdu newspaper 'Paisa Akhbar', a mouthpiece of pro-Congress urbanite Muslims of nationalist persuasions. These editorials and articles appeared in the paper between February 26, 1909 and to March 25, 1909. While doing so, he takes 'Paisa Akhbar' as the collective voice of the Punjabi Muslims. As a matter of fact, the paper represented a very small minority of Muslim city-dwellers whereas overwhelming majority of the Punjabi Muslims inhabited in the rural Punjab and knew only one language -- Punjabi. The professor also warns, if adopted as a medium of instruction, Punjabi will become heavily sanskritised, forcing its Quranic script to be replaced by Gurmukhi. His apprehension is quite far-fetched because it deals with the future which nobody can know for sure and, therefore, the empirical basis of his argument is ill-founded. Punjab Administrative Report for 1851-52 can serve as an important reference to understand the circumstance in which Urdu became the medium of instruction in Punjab. In the report, the author -- who was a British functionary of the colonial state -- said the same thing about Punjab as Professor Malik has come up with 153 years later. Urdu was introduced with the Persian script in Punjab under an administrative order taken right after the province's annexation to the British empire. The province's British officials were of the view that Punjabi was confined only to the rural areas of Punjab and was losing its popularity by the day. Sagacity, therefore, required them to introduce Urdu as the medium of instruction in Punjab. After subduing Punjab militarily, they wanted to subsume it culturally by replacing its native language with Urdu. Mr Mehta, who once served as Punjab's Director Public Instruction, says in his book, The Development of Western Education in Punjab, that Punjabi was thought inimical to the sustenance of British Raj because it could have incited nationalist sentiments among the Punjabi populace. It was, therefore, willfully suppressed. It is evident from the G W Leitner's report titled History of Indigenous Education in the Punjab since Annexation that the education was being imparted in the native language before the British took over in 1849. The Punjab administrative report of 1851-52 prematurely declared Urdu's victory over Punjabi by claiming that the former had taken the cities and the towns of Punjab by a storm verging on becoming the lingua franca of the province. History of the colonial Punjab tells a different tale. After Urdu was accorded the status of medium of instruction in Punjab, the provincial administration faced acute shortage of personnel having necessary competence in that language to fill junior posts in various departments. Consequently, many people from North Western Provinces (later United Provinces) and Bengal migrated to Punjab to fill in the void. That fact that only few among the locals were proficient in the language runs quite contrary to what British officials were saying about the ascendant position of Urdu at that time. In 1850s, Urdu and Punjabi were on even keel, as languages conducive only for poetry. Both were equally inadequate in their capacity for generating prose. It was the official patronage that put Urdu into an advantageous position in Punjab vis-a-vis Punjabi in the later decades of the 19th century. >From 1860s onward, Punjab went through the throes of communal antagonism in the wake of the belligerent stance of Arya Samaj. During that time of extreme turbulence, Urdu was projected as an instrument of cultural articulation of the Muslims irrespective of their territorial origins. Soon after, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan's visit to Punjab was yet another factor that went a long way in persuading the Punjabi Muslim elite to prefer Urdu over Punjabi. The setting up of organisations like Anjuman Himayat-e-Islam and Anjuman Himayat-e-Urdu further consolidated Urdu's position in Punjab. But it remained the language of the Muslim elite for a long time to come. It eventually got the backing of Punjab's Muslim middle class when Allama Iqbal, the first Urdu poet of purely Punjabi origin, used it for his poetic expression. He, however, was not convinced of the Urdu's capacity to express the subtleties and the complexities of his poetic vision. That is why he considered Persian as more pertinent language for his poetry. Urdu had carved out a niche for itself in Punjab by the early decades of the 20th century. Ever since it has flourished enormously. After independence, Pakistani Punjab became virtually a sanctuary for Urdu with Punjabi intelligentsia adopting it as a language of its own. Prof. Malik's views adequately testify to this fact but it bodes ill for hapless Punjabi. Not only its distinct identity is at stake, its very existence is being thought as anathema to Islam and Islamic culture. Despite all the official patronage accorded to Urdu, no more than 9.6 per cent of Pakistanis speak it whereas Punjabi, despite suffering all sorts of indifference, is the most widely spoken language in the country. The writer is the chairman of Department of History at Government College University, Lahore. ----- End forwarded message ----- HTML Attachment Language, gentlemen Urdu took root in Punjab under British patronage. The policy of letting it flourish at the cost of the province's own language continues even today http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html By Dr Tahir Kamran Indian Punjab's Chief Minister Captain Amrinder Singh recently suggested to his Pakistani counterpart Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi that Punjabi should be medium of instruction in the Pakistani Punjab. The remarks made during the former's visit to Lahore have elicited a lively debate. Professor Fateh Muhammad Malik, who heads National Language Authority, in a couple of articles in an Urdu daily has come out openly against the idea. Trying to establish a link between Islam, Punjab and Urdu, he relegates Punjabi to a crude early version of Urdu. According to his point of view, Punjabi is devoid of any potential to serve as a medium of instruction either for literature or sciences. Mushir Anwar only reiterates the point made by Professor Malik when he talks of 'Urdu's qibbla-e-awwal' and dubs Punjab as Urdu's 'first hatchery.' The substantial part of Professor Malik's interpretation seems to be a re-narration of Hafiz Mehmud Sherani's view as presented in his renowned essay 'Punjab Main Urdu' which tries to trace the origin of Urdu in Punjab. If this thesis is accepted as being true, the standpoint of those historians of Urdu literature and language becomes completely invalid who have been continuously pleading that Urdu was first born in Hyderabad Deccan, Lucknow and Delhi. Also, if Professor Malik's argument is bought, then the whole backdrop of Muslim history and civilization in the Indian subcontinent will have to be re-contextualised. All the renowned historians and scholars of medieval India clearly maintain that plains of the Ganges and the Jamuna acted not only as an administrative centre for Muslim rule in India, they also served as the wellspring of what is called as Indo-Muslim culture. Because more often than not, administrative centres determine the cultural modes and the ways of their articulations. Punjab, despite its strategic and cultural significance, had never been the cultural centre for the Muslims of the subcontinent. It is, therefore, that the language that represented the Muslim ethos, cannot sprout and flourish at the periphery where the Punjab was actually located in Muslim India. Besides, any historian of the subcontinent will find it absolutely bizarre if the contributions of Fort William College, Calcutta, and John Gilchrist in the evolution of Urdu are not mentioned. Professor Malik has supported his argument with references to the editorials and articles published in Lahore-based Urdu newspaper 'Paisa Akhbar', a mouthpiece of pro-Congress urbanite Muslims of nationalist persuasions. These editorials and articles appeared in the paper between February 26, 1909 and to March 25, 1909. While doing so, he takes 'Paisa Akhbar' as the collective voice of the Punjabi Muslims. As a matter of fact, the paper represented a very small minority of Muslim city-dwellers whereas overwhelming majority of the Punjabi Muslims inhabited in the rural Punjab and knew only one language -- Punjabi. The professor also warns, if adopted as a medium of instruction, Punjabi will become heavily sanskritised, forcing its Quranic script to be replaced by Gurmukhi. His apprehension is quite far-fetched because it deals with the future which nobody can know for sure and, therefore, the empirical basis of his argument is ill-founded. Punjab Administrative Report for 1851-52 can serve as an important reference to understand the circumstance in which Urdu became the medium of instruction in Punjab. In the report, the author -- who was a British functionary of the colonial state -- said the same thing about Punjab as Professor Malik has come up with 153 years later. Urdu was introduced with the Persian script in Punjab under an administrative order taken right after the province's annexation to the British empire. The province's British officials were of the view that Punjabi was confined only to the rural areas of Punjab and was losing its popularity by the day. Sagacity, therefore, required them to introduce Urdu as the medium of instruction in Punjab. After subduing Punjab militarily, they wanted to subsume it culturally by replacing its native language with Urdu. Mr Mehta, who once served as Punjab's Director Public Instruction, says in his book, The Development of Western Education in Punjab, that Punjabi was thought inimical to the sustenance of British Raj because it could have incited nationalist sentiments among the Punjabi populace. It was, therefore, willfully suppressed. It is evident from the G W Leitner's report titled History of Indigenous Education in the Punjab since Annexation that the education was being imparted in the native language before the British took over in 1849. The Punjab administrative report of 1851-52 prematurely declared Urdu's victory over Punjabi by claiming that the former had taken the cities and the towns of Punjab by a storm verging on becoming the lingua franca of the province. History of the colonial Punjab tells a different tale. After Urdu was accorded the status of medium of instruction in Punjab, the provincial administration faced acute shortage of personnel having necessary competence in that language to fill junior posts in various departments. Consequently, many people from North Western Provinces (later United Provinces) and Bengal migrated to Punjab to fill in the void. That fact that only few among the locals were proficient in the language runs quite contrary to what British officials were saying about the ascendant position of Urdu at that time. In 1850s, Urdu and Punjabi were on even keel, as languages conducive only for poetry. Both were equally inadequate in their capacity for generating prose. It was the official patronage that put Urdu into an advantageous position in Punjab vis-a-vis Punjabi in the later decades of the 19th century. From 1860s onward, Punjab went through the throes of communal antagonism in the wake of the belligerent stance of Arya Samaj. During that time of extreme turbulence, Urdu was projected as an instrument of cultural articulation of the Muslims irrespective of their territorial origins. Soon after, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan's visit to Punjab was yet another factor that went a long way in persuading the Punjabi Muslim elite to prefer Urdu over Punjabi. The setting up of organisations like Anjuman Himayat-e-Islam and Anjuman Himayat-e-Urdu further consolidated Urdu's position in Punjab. But it remained the language of the Muslim elite for a long time to come. It eventually got the backing of Punjab's Muslim middle class when Allama Iqbal, the first Urdu poet of purely Punjabi origin, used it for his poetic _expression. He, however, was not convinced of the Urdu's capacity to express the subtleties and the complexities of his poetic vision. That is why he considered Persian as more pertinent language for his poetry. Urdu had carved out a niche for itself in Punjab by the early decades of the 20th century. Ever since it has flourished enormously. After independence, Pakistani Punjab became virtually a sanctuary for Urdu with Punjabi intelligentsia adopting it as a language of its own. Prof. Malik's views adequately testify to this fact but it bodes ill for hapless Punjabi. Not only its distinct identity is at stake, its very existence is being thought as anathema to Islam and Islamic culture. Despite all the official patronage accorded to Urdu, no more than 9.6 per cent of Pakistanis speak it whereas Punjabi, despite suffering all sorts of indifference, is the most widely spoken language in the country. The writer is the chairman of Department of History at Government College University, Lahore. How Convenient! Access the Writers Forum Group, Click here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/ Access to Writers Forum stored Links, please click here and bookmark: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/links Access to all of the Writers Forum Messages, please click and book mark: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/messages To post messages,email to: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com Ask your friends to join. To subscribe: Email to; Writers_Forum-subscribe@yahoogroups. ( We may not necessarily share all opinions) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Writers_Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Name:	Baljeet Benipal - June 29 2004
E-mail:	benipal@hotmail.com
Location:	toronto, Canada
Comments:	I visit apna site. Sach puchoo taan apni jehi lagi. Jiveen kisey puraane gowachey supney noon akheen takyaa hovey. I'll soon join discussion forum soon. kee hoyaa mera supna suttaa neend jagavey rataan di rooz merian akhaan wich aunda alakh jagavey jazbaataan di main sutta tuseen jagdey rehnaan umar handooni halaataan di

Name:	kaurasach - June 29 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Etahy dawa khana kinnay kholta?

Name:	rajeev - June 29 2004
E-mail:	pata-nahin@kithe.com
Comments:	sajid veera kirpaa kar kae koi geet-sheet post karo shah jee.. jae ijaazat hove tae ik farmaish siggee.. koi tufail niazi sahab da geet (which is not on APNA site) post karoge tae badee mehrbaani hovegi. rab raakha rajeev

Name:

Sardarz - June 29 2004

E-mail:

bhhuyi2H@hhbyu.com

gursharan singh - June 29 2004

Sukhbir Ji,

Vah bai Vah, kinni sohni te sarl punjabi vich likhya tussin.
Tuhada "Expression" punjabi jubaan ch bahut fabeya je

Pls.do not take criticism of my previous post,as to be personally directed at you.Your contributions to this board,like many other stalwarts here,are a re-assuring presence.
The thoughts of all participants here,rightly points to the fact that "HAVE's" of our punjabi cuture,care to spend time writing/commenting about it.
Last night I made this observation and just felt like sharing it with you guys, without any malice or hatred towards anyone.
In the end I guess we all agree to disagree with one another from time to time.

Regards.

Name:	kaurasach - June 29 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Farhat, I hope you did not take my message the wrong way. let me rephrase. I know a few Pak Punjabis who happen to be Chrisitans........In the same family, there is one highly educated brother who owns several schools in Pak. And I do blame the parents and not the kids for being illiterate in Pbi.

Name:	farhat - June 29 2004
E-mail:	farhatkhan@hotmail.com
Location:	Chicago, USA
Comments:	Greetings, in regards to the comments made by Kaurasach, I just wanted you to know that there are a few educated Pakistani Punjabi Christians also. I belong to one such family and know a few more. As far as the fluency of language is concerned,that is contigent upon the environment at home. My siblings and I were raised in the U.S. and all three of us are very fluent in spoken Punjabi,personally I also read and write urdu quite well and can write and read Punjabi in the persian script. The reason for our fluency in Punjabi is because our parents insisted on that. Both my mother and father were college graduates and professionals and very proud to be Punjabi. They also instillled in us an appreciation of Punjabi Cultural Heritage. The reason Punjabi is even considerd inferior in Pakistan is a political one. Any initiative to advance the cause of Punjabiat is percieved as anti Pakistan or even better,anti Islam. I have been reading the posts regarding this issue and I could not believe that men of letters actually believe in a religion -language connection.Punjab is actually an excellent example of the difference between region and religion. As far as childern not speaking Punjabi,blame the parents' insecurities and or ignorance.

Name:	suman - June 29 2004
E-mail:	suman@what.com
Comments:	I, for one, look forward to, and find stimulating, the observations that Sukhbir posts. It is not enough to simply enjoy things - thought, analysis and criticism are absolutely required if we are to grow and develop as a 'serious' culture. A worthy poet, which Bulle Shah is, creates magic with words - only with words. It is very pertinent to analyse how and why he uses the words he does and how that usage relates to the culture around him.

Name:

E-mail:

abc@abc.com

Fateh Sabh Nu,

pichley kujh dinaan ton parh reha haan ke west di dharti te dooji ya teeji peerhi de punjabi anyaaney kyon nahi aapni ma-boli vich gal-baat kardey te kyon asi edaan de forum's te aa ke roula paaida hai te dukhi hoida hai. Meri samajh paaron kyon ke saade aapne hi gharaan di nitt di zindagi vichon hi saadi ma-boli gawaach gayi hai. Asi bade maan naal eh te neyaaneyaan nu sikhandey haan ke aapne grandma te grandpa nu saverey uth ke sat sri akal ya salaam dua karni hai. Te esey ton hi oh baal ghar de bajurgaan naal te punjabi vich boldey ne. te tohadey naal pher angreji shuru. kyon ke asi hi ohna nu eh aadat paayi hai ke aapne daadey daadi,naaney naani naal punjabi ch gall karo kyon jo ohna nu english nahi aaondi te jadon v saadey naal gall karni hai te tusi english bol sakde ho.

Par pher v main vaare-2 jaanda haan ethe di os navin paneeree te jo bhaavain tuti-bhaji hi sahi par punjabi bolan di koshish kardi hai.

Kisey mere w.punjab de veer ne e.punjab de "PUNJABI" chennels de marre jehe chittey w.punjab vich poaan di umeed kitti hai. O-NA-O BHRAAVA ki kar reha hain. eh te oh gall ho jaani hai ke awin hi aapne suche bhaandey vich KAANJI DI CHITT sutan di gall karde ho. Jinna maara haal e.punjab vich punjabi de ehna so called "punjabi" chennels te ho reha hai ma-boli di seva de naa te. oston vadh maari gall koi nahi aapni boli vaastey. BAAKI AGEY RAB-RAKHA

Name:	kaurasach - June 29 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	I suggest Pak Punjabis develop their own authentic programs and channels. Not the kind of fake "sweet" W Punjabi projected from current channels. It sounds and feels like Urdu. Eh 'mithi' punjabi sun kay merey chunray laran lag painday nay. I know a few Christian Pakstanis who are uneducated and their Punjabi is not influenced by Urdu. Thus, they are delight to hear to. We should get these 'anpars'to do our programs instead of laughing at them in both Punjabs.

Name:	ENUGU ONISHA - June 29 2004
E-mail:	enugu_owerri@yahoo.com
My URL:	http://bar
Location:	IMO, OREGON pa
Comments:	I LOVE THIS GUEST PAGE.

Name:	kaurasach - June 29 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Saeed, Please do not pray for Punjabi TV projected in W Punjab. It is not Punjabi at all. Even E Punjabis are fed up of "kharka" and "Raula" of these channels. It is not Punjabi. The dancers are dressed in convent school dresses with blazers and ties. I couldn't take it after 2 minutes and shut the TV off. And the 'bhangra' they do. I would rather watch hijras clap and wail all day instead to watching 2 minutes of this so called 'bhangra' and listen to the so called 'punjabi' geet.

Name:	kaurasach - June 29 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Another point is that though Punjabi is supposedly 'simple' and for the masses, it is irrelevant. Any language can become for the masses. Hebrew (a "superior" language) has been revived after several centuries of non use. The question is not whether Punjabi will survive, it is in what form does it survive - Will it survive as a pidgin Hindi/Urdu?Sanskrit? New generation of kids and even Punabi teens do not understand even simple words that were coloqial only a couple of decades back. For example Thalay and Bhunjay are now Neechay. Jhagga and Suthan are not Kameez Salwar They think EEdhar Udhar neechay are Punjabi words. The list is too long to go over.

Name:	kaurasach - June 29 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	The discussion of Punjabi surviving is amusing at best. It is not a matter of 'inferior' or 'superior' language. It is Punjabis who are inferior or superior in their thinking. Punjabis suffer from some kind of inferiority complex. We have here a lot of Russian, Chinese, Indo-chinese children who are 3rd generation born and bred in the USA and their first language is English. But, they speak FLUENTLY with their grandparents (who do not speak a word of English) in public without any hesitation or shame. Compare that to Punjabi kids who gape at you when you try to converse with them in Punjabi. The elders laugh a fake laugh and are absurdly amused when the kids utter a couple butchered Punjabi words. It is shameful and disgusting.

Name:	Saeed - June 29 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dr. Shahid Jee, I do not know why my heart does not agree with the comments of your letter: "In fact Punjabi has lived through thousands of years (Vedic, Sanskrit, Persian, etc., eras). It will stay alive as long as Punjabi mothers keep producing Punjabi children." Dr. Sahib, my question is very simple and it is based on my deep observatoin of Punjab (Pakitani Punjab). Are there any Punjabi mothers who will carry on giving births to Punjabis? I am sorry to say that unfortunately, there are no any Punjabi mothers in Pakitani Punjab. If there are then we have to work hard to save that species. Let me make it more clear (Veer Sardars's advice), Urdu speaking mothers are proud to talk with their and with the kids of the whole universe in Urdu, Pathan mothers instinctly talk with their kids in Pushto as they don't have any other option and they don't want. Sindhi mothers are also cautious about their language Sindhi. Once I wrote on this forum that I met one Armenian young lady in Montreal, she was a Canadian national and she was proudly talking with her daughter in her mother tongue Armenian. Dr. Shahid Jee, where do we stand? No where. Allah karey, Pevez Ilahi Ch. Punjabi wal goh karey. Par ohdey PaRhey likhey Punjab wich Punjabi zuban dee koee thaaN naheeN. eys waqat tin PTV channels toN Urdu gal-baat de lagaataar program aa rahey neyN. ehnaaN prograamaaN wich Punjab diyaaN ghar beyThiyaaN aurtaaN te bachey gal baat wich shareek hundey neyN. te chehk chehk ke eh Panjab de waasee Urdu bol rahey huNdey neyN. Punjabi laee survive karnaa eythey wadh toN wadh oaukhaa huNdaa jaa rehyaa ey. Rabb karey je India Pakistan de aapsee taalqaat Theek hovaN* ehdey naal Indian Punjab de 9 tv channelaaN dee bochhaaR eys paasey wal hovey taaN shayd Punjabi eythey bach jaaway. waqat tey aalmi taareekhee haalaat Punjabi nooN bachaa jaawan te shayd ey bach jaaway, Punjab wich rehN* waaliyaaN te soNh khaahdee ey ke ohnaaN eythey Urdu da ghar wasaa ke rehN*aa ey.

Name:	Saeed - June 29 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dr. Shahid Jee, I do not know why my heart does agree with the comments of your letter: "In fact Punjabi has lived through thousands of years (Vedic, Sanskrit, Persian, etc., eras). It will stay alive as long as Punjabi mothers keep producing Punjabi children." Dr. Sahib, my question is very simple and it is based on my deep observatoin of Punjab (Pakitani Punjab). Are there any Punjabi mothers who will carry on giving births to Punjabis? I am sorry to say that unfortunately, there are no any Punjabi mothers in Pakitani Punjab. If there are then we have to work hard to save that species. Let me make it more clear (Veer Sardars's advice), Urdu speaking mothers are proud to talk with their and with the kids of the whole universe in Urdu, Pathan mothers instinctly talk with their kids in Pushto as they don't have any other option and they don't want. Sindhi mothers are also cautious about their language Sindhi. Once I wrote on this forum that I met one Armenian young lady in Montreal, she was a Canadian national and she was proudly talking with her daughter in her mother tongue Armenian. Dr. Shahid Jee, where do we stand? No where. Allah karey, Pevez Ilahi Ch. Punjabi wal goh karey. Par ohdey PaRhey likhey Punjab wich Punjabi zuban dee koee thaaN naheeN. eys waqat tin PTV channels toN Urdu gal-baat de lagaataar program aa rahey neyN. ehnaaN prograamaaN wich Punjab diyaaN ghar beyThiyaaN aurtaaN te bachey gal baat wich shareek hundey neyN. te chehk chehk ke eh Panjab de waasee Urdu bol rahey huNdey neyN. Punjabi laee survive karnaa eythey wadh toN wadh oaukhaa huNdaa jaa rehyaa ey. Rabb karey je India Pakistan de aapsee taalqaat Theek hovaN* ehdey naal Indian Punjab de 9 tv channelaaN dee bochhaaR eys paasey wal hovey taaN shayd Punjabi eythey bach jaaway. waqat tey aalmi taareekhee haalaat Punjabi nooN bachaa jaawan te shayd ey bach jaaway, Punjab wich rehN* waaliyaaN te soNh khaahdee ey ke ohnaaN eythey Urdu da ghar wasaa ke rehN*aa ey.

Name:	Shahid - June 29 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	For 'keeh bolay Panjab', see the link: http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/june-2004/11/EDITOR/let9.asp

Name:	abid hussain satti - June 29 2004
E-mail:	ah_satti@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, punjab pakistan
Comments:	AOA Dear sir \k j j kjlhjhgdhsasdjfhiuijdfsnviuc8hilkm lxzzzzzzzzzz zkxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - June 29 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	Sardar horaaN bilkul durust farmaayaa ai payI gall jinnI sehj ate simple hove ohnI chaNgi. Par sehaj ate simple honNA vI BhAgAN dI gall ai. Har kise de naseeb nahiN aiDe chaNge ke gall sukhAli ate nALo nAl asardAr vI banNI rahe. Meri jAche ais problem de do hal nikaLde ai: jAN te mere varge zubAn de pakhkhoN taNg ate hornAN nu taNg karan waale phailsoof forum toN baahar rakhkhe jAnN. Gall koi bahtI burI nahiN. Ho sahdA hai aise ch hI sabdA BhalA hove. BeharhAl, ik dUjA hall eh vI ho sakdA hai ke mere varge rabb de mAreyAN nu bohtA importance nA dittI jAye. BhAveN gall sADI koi khAs ahmiyat nA rakhdI hove, jadoN tAyIN eh kise de sir soTA nahiN mArdI, sahAr lau ehnU vI. Ignore karo sADe jehe pseudo-dAnishwarAN nu. SADe varge aflAtUn tAN aiNveN hI rabb dI janje shAmil hoye de aa. EhnA nUN vI koI ik konNA bakshish karo - kyon jo eh vI khalq-e-khudA dA vIngA TeDA hissA ne. Vaise maiN zAtI tor te kAfI koshish kar rehA hAN payi forum de mitrAN nu apnNI laffAzI nAL GhaT toN GhaT bore karAN. Sukhbir

Name:	Sardarz - June 29 2004
E-mail:	snjniku@hgvgtvy.com
Comments:	Dosto, I cant help myself from not expressing this observation.... Our so dearly loved mother tongue i,e "PUNJABI" has one strong factor working for it when compared to other prominent languages of northern sub-continent,the likes of Sanskrit,Persian & Urdu and that is, its(Punjabi's) ability of being such a simple language that common man and masses urderstand it.Expressing oneself in Punjabi is so very easy as compared to other so called SUPERIOR languages. That was one of the reasons,why many Sufi & Bhakti movement saints wrote in Punjabi to make their message understandable to masses Even on a serious discussion board like this "APNA' board,there are some very learned and gifted poeople who contribute to express their knowledge,love,emotions for their mother tongue,but how I wish these contributors keep their posts simple and use common vocabulary for people to understand,like and read their WHOLE posts, not give up halfway thru as if you were going through a doctrate students thesis. I think the whole idea(My personal opinion)of getting behind punjabi is, that its such a simplistic,yet sweet language to express onself, lets not forget this while composing our HI-FI posts. Pls.take this as constructive feedback and not as "nuKta-Chini" for any one particular person. Regards.

Name:	Sardarz - June 29 2004
E-mail:	snjniku@hgvgtvy.com
Comments:	Dosto, I cant help myself from not expressing this observation.... Our so dearly loved mother tongue i,e "PUNJABI" has one strong factor working for it when compared to other prominent languages of northern sub-continent,the likes of Sanskrit,Persian & Urdu and that is its(Punjabi's) ability of being such a simple language that common man and masses urderstand it, expressing oneself in Punjabi is so very easy as compared to other so called SUPERIOR languages. That was one of the reasons,why many Sufi & Bhakti movement saints wrote in Punjabi to make their message understandable to masses Even on srious discussion boards like this "APNA' board,there are some very learned and gifted poeople who contribute to express their knowledge,love,emotions for their mother tounge,but how I wish these contributors keep their posts simple and use common vocabulary for most people to understand,like and read their WHOLE posts not give up halfway thru as if you were going through a doctrate students thesis. I think the whole idea(My personal opinion)of getting behind punjabi is that it such a simplistic,yet sweet language to express onself, lets not forget this while composing our HI-FI posts. Pls.take this as constructive feedback and not as "nuKta-Chini" for any one particular person. Regards.

Name:	Salahuddin Butt - June 28 2004
E-mail:	darvesh786@hotmail.com
Location:	Edison , NJ USA
Comments:	Dear Friends: I am highly indebted to the organizers of this great website which has given us some great Punjabi music. One of the most mesmerising portion of Punjabi songs is Heer Waris Shah I. I have been listening to this portion on daily basis for quite sometime and enjoyed almost every singer. There are 28 singers on this piece. I am trying to find out the real name of this singer which is listed as Nazir Begum - Part 2, item #4. The reason to know the real singer is that a friend of mine has disputed the name of this singer. If I could be able to find out the real name, then I can go ahead and find more music about this singer. First verse is ' Allah such tey Nabi BurHaq Mian? Is there any Punjabi brother who can resolve this mystery? Many thanks S. Butt

Name:

rajeev - June 28 2004

E-mail:

Javed Zaki - June 24 2004

Sukhbir Veer jee atte Saeed Veer jee,

Your observations about the "shah-shoh" issue :-) are intriguing indeed. Most of the readers including myself (that I know and have talked to) put an imaginary comma after Bulley and read on. Shah and Shoh both are then interpreted as explicit references to the Beloved .

What I could not quite comprehend was the implications of "hierarchic projections". I am of the view that in Bhakti/Sufi poetry the patriarchic code is not surreptitiously hinted at, rather it is a bold and explicit admission. The hegemony as it were, is not just showing through the cracks but is emphatically touted as the bhagat's crowning glory.

The reason for my conviction are the works of many Bhakti/Sufi stalwarts. Some quick examples..

1. Last lines of Bhai Nand Lal's ghazal (in Farsi) for Guru Gobind Singh jee go --
Nand Lal is the slave-dog of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Nand Lal is aiming for the name of Guru Gobind Singh Ji
I am lower than the dogs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji I peck the small pieces in the dishes of Guru Gobind Singh Ji etc.

2. Soordas jee in many of his compositions compares himself to a dog at the "Master's" door. Using words like "kookar", "patit" etc.

3. Bhagat Kabir is known for creating such poetic constructs that exaggerate (to demonstrate) his unworthiness to even his master's service.

4. etc. etc.

Veer jeeo, could you please elaborate on "perpetuating social hierarchies" in context with Bhakti/Sufi poetry.

rajeev
"bulley, shoh jo hari chit laagae,
hindu turak dojan tyagae"

Name:	Rupinder - June 28 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	For those of you who are aware, I am trying to write a short novellete ( O r feature lenghth short story) in Panjabi. I am not rich, which is why I have to use work facilities to do Internet related things etc, but I am looking for someone to publish my work in Gurumukh iand also to transpose into Shahmukhi and publilsh in Pakistan. Any organisation out there? Regards Roop

Name:	rajeev - June 28 2004
E-mail:	pata_nahin@kithe.com
Comments:	avtar gill saab I have always wondered if the Bols while playing the Dhol are similar to tabla etc. I mean Dha, Tin, Ta etc. Is the terminology similar to Tabla/Pakhawaj like kaida etc. Has there been a legendery Dhol player (living or dead).. I would love to get more info. What better way to get it than from an instructor himself.. If any one else plays or knows about Dhols please do share your views.

Name:	rajeev - June 28 2004
E-mail:	pata_nahin@kithe.com
Comments:	avtar gill saab I have always wondered if the Bols while playing the Dhol are similar to tabla etc. I mean Dha, Tin, Ta etc. Is the terminology similar to Tabla/Pakhawaj like kaida etc. Has there been a legendery Dhol player (living or dead).. I would love to get more info. What better way to get it than from an instructor himself.. If any one else plays or knows about Dhols please do share your views.

Name:	Avtar Gill - June 28 2004
E-mail:	hpsdhol@yahoo.com
Location:	Toronto, On Canada
Comments:	DHOL ADDICTION DHOL Lessons / Instructor (One on one lessons available) - DHOL classes re available with easy BOLs for all levels. - Individual lessons can be arranged at your location Contact Harv Dhillon at hpsdhol@yahoo.com or call at (416)386 0314 / (416)560 7038.

Name:	Akhilesh - June 27 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Comments:	Shahid Jee, that is an excellent article, will add it to my homepage.

Name:	Shahid - June 27 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Friends: Fun and facts never stop. This time more facts than fun. Another serious reading of language history in Panjab, a favourite topic of discussion for last several months. Check out the link: http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/jun2004-weekly/nos-27-06-2004/lit.htm#1

Name:	Saeed - June 27 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Thanks Sukhbir Jee. I agree with your comments regarding Suman Jee's work on Bulleh Shah. The translation made by Suman Jee is comparatively better than many others. I don't have the work of Kartar Singh Duggal. I will try to get it from here. Dear APNA mitro, aj de angrezi akhbaar eh kujh Punjab baarey peysh kar rahey jey: 1. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_27-6-2004_pg3_2 2. http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/27/fea.htm#3 3. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/sunday/default.aspx?c=street_talk.htm

Name:	Saeed - June 27 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Thanks Sukhbir Jee. I agree with your comments regarding Suman Jee work on Bulleh Shah is comparatively better than many others. I don't have the work of Kartar Singh Duggal. I will try to get it from here. Dear APNA mitro, aj de angrezi akhbaar eh kujh Punjab baarey peysh kar rahey jey: 1. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_27-6-2004_pg3_2 2. http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/27/fea.htm#3 3. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/sunday/default.aspx?c=street_talk.htm

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - June 27 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	Thank you ever so much Saeed Veer ji. With your latest postings things, for me at least, have become clearer and more precise. I would also like to thank you for ever so politely correcting my argument about "shoh" which I thought was only a semantically nuanced variant of "shah". For me, what was interesting was to note the near formal designation of "shah" as part of the patriarchic power structure - e.g. baadshaah, haakam, tagRaa, daulatmand, waDDa waDDeraa, Syed, rajayaa pujayaa etc. In fact within the game of chess or cards, "shah" again stands at the hierarchic peak of symbology. The meanings of the word "shoh" are not necessarily a denial of such a patriarchic code. But there is, on the other hand, a definitive subversive core now very subtly inscribed within the three semantic registers suggested by the lughaat. The domination of the one by the other is put into a circle of exchange triggered by either a social convention as in khaawaNd, patee, shohar or spiritual submission as in Murshid, Peer, ustaad. These relations are no longer abstract but real and lived. If you notice, the third register mahboob, piyaaraa, preymee is constituted by the one who submits and not the other way around. The idea of "love", "reverence" and "intimacy" creatively reinvents or rather subversively deconstructs patriarchy. And finally, the association of profundity, depth etc. with "shoh" seems to me to be a reconfirmation the hierarchic projections I have hinted at above. Bulle Shah, with his earthy intrepidity, constantly subverts the known registers of linguistic domination perpetuating social hierarchies. In fact, no other Punjabi poet to my mind stages the "self" so playfully and, in an ironic vein, so narcissistically as Bulle Shah. It is for this reason I find translations of his poems by the likes of Kartar Singh Duggal so utterly dissatisfying. If I may venture to add I would place Suman Ji's versions way ahead of Mr Duggal's. Sukhbir

Name:	Saeed - June 26 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Paa Jee, here are the detailed meanings of the words Shah and Shoh. (Ref: WaDDee Punjabi Lughat by Iqbal Salahuddin). He writes the meanings of the word "Shah" on the page 1865 as under: 1. baadshaah, haakam 2. faqeeraaN daa laqab 3. taGRaa, daulatmaNd, 4. shatraNj daa ik mohraa 5. taash daa teyrwaaN pattaa, 6. waDDaa, waDeyraa 7. Syed 8. rajyaa pujyaa4. batorey (used as) saabqaa(prefix) Now let us see the meanings of the word "Shoh". He writes on the page 1887 in the following words: 1. khaawaNd, patee, shohar 2. Murshid, Peer, ustaad 3. mahboob, piyaaraa, preymee And before it he also explained the word shoh as DooNghaa, geyraa, thaah.

Name:	Saeed - June 26 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Sukhbir Jee, If you write the verse as is written in the books or in our site, it creates confusion for a common man, not for the intellectuals. Just see the verse: Bulla shah di sej piyaari, a common man misinterpret and can understand it as "the sej (bed or arranged bed) of Bullah Shah is wonderful or pleasant." And if you write as: Bullhaa shoh dee chheyj niyaaree Even more appropriately there should be a comma after the name of the peot Bullha in Shahmukhi or in any other script then it would be better understood by common people. Just see the case: Bullah, Shoh dee chheyj niyaaree, then it means "Bullah, the bed (sej or chheyj) of the Beloved is distinct or wonderous. It is more easily understood. (One thing more, Sukhbir Jee, Manjit Rattu also wrote "chheyj" on the page 136 of his gurmukhi book "KaafiyaaN Bullhey Shah" published by Ashok Book Shop, Sirhind. Sukhbir Jee, if you say any kafi today then you can use the word seyj instead of chheyj but what I believe as Najam Sahib and Dr. Shahid Sb and perhaps many more also beleive that the original words should be used in their books as they were in the kalam of our Sufis.

Name:	jong - June 26 2004
E-mail:	jonigogeo@yahoo.com
My URL:	http://yaae.com
Location:	NY, NY USA
Comments:	nice site

Name:	jong - June 26 2004
E-mail:	jonigogeo@yahoo.com
My URL:	http://yaae.com
Location:	NY, NY USA
Comments:	nice site

Name:	Akhilesh - June 26 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL:	http://members.aol.com/mahapunjab/home.html
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Punjabi 2nd language status yet to percolate http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040626/delhi.htm#5 Punjabi scholar honoured http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040626/delhi.htm#14 Punjabi�s Dutch �legacy' http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_841031,0006.htm

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - June 26 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	I am not so sure if the semantically nuanced 'shoh' isn't merely another, more intimate, form of 'shah'. The difference between 'shoh' and 'shah' seems to me to be somewhat comparable to the difference between 'Bulla' and 'Abdul' or 'Abdullah'. It strikes me as both a term of endearment as well as of reverence. In this sense, the word "shoh" implies or stands for the Beloved only by inference and not semantically. In this sense, I would be somewhat hesitant to read Najam Saheb's "corrected" version as being radically different from the APNA version, semantically. However, the major difference as I see it is created in the lexical intimacy brought about by the choice of :chheyj instead of sej and the use of retroflexive n instead of the dental n etc. It does make a difference in terms of the renonace and energy generated. Poetry is finally not all about the meanings that the words carry as social conventions but as Jean-Paul Sartre points out in What is Literature? it is about how the words become aglow from within. Translation as such becomes a highly hazardous enterprise. Sukhbir

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - June 26 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	I am not so sure if the semantically nuanced 'shoh' isn't merely another, more intimate, form of 'shah'. The difference between 'shoh' and 'shah' seems to me to be somewhat comparable to the difference between 'Bulla' and 'Abdul' or 'Abdullah'. It strikes me as both a term of endearment as well as of reverence. In this sense, the word "shoh" implies or stands for the Beloved only by inference and not semantically. In this sense, I would be somewhat hesitant to read Najam Saheb's "corrected" version as being radically different from the APNA version, semantically. However, the major difference as I see it is created in the lexical intimacy brought about by the choice of :chheyj instead of and the use of retroflexive n instead of the dental n etc. It does make a difference in terms of the renonace and energy generated. Poetry is finally not all about the meanings that the words carry as social conventions but as Jean-Paul Sartre points out in What is Literature? it is about how the words become aglow from within. Translation as such becomes a highly hazardous enterprise. Sukhbir

Name:	Saeed - June 25 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dr. Shahid Jee, there is big difference between two words "Shah and shoh" . Shah is used as part of Bulleh Shah and "shoh" means the Beloved. Most of the kafis used word Shah whereas it is shoh. Just see one example from the same kafi "GhaRyaalee deyo nikaal nee". If we take this last stanza from our site (http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/romanenglish/bullah-r/poem12.htm) : Bulla shah di sej piyaari, ni men taaran haarey taari, Kiven kiven hun aayi vaari, hun vichadan hoya nuhaal (muhaal) ni. Now just see the corrected kaafee by Najam Hussain Syed Jee. Bullhaa shoh dee chheyj niyaaree, nee meyN taaraN* haarey taaree, keeveyN keeveyN huN* aaee waaree, huN* wichhRaN* hoyaa mohaal nee,

Name:	Shahid - June 25 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Dear Saeed ji: Let me make a suggestion to you. Here is my reason for the suggestion first. After Baba Farid saheb, all our classical Panjabi poets of standing have followed his footsteps and wrote in the so called LehNdee boli. Be it Shah Hussein (Madho Laal), Bulleh Shah, Waris Shah, Sultan Bahoo, Ghulam Farid, Maulvi Ghulam Rasool, Mian Mohammad, and others. You will notice that they all came from very different regions of the greater Panjab. And now the suggestion. Knowing well that changes in the kalam of our clasics have taken place over all this period, should you find LehNda style words in the printed and published manuscripts in Kafis/poems with correct 'matray' that also fit 'visram' rules, those would most probably be better suited for selection, and you should pick misras from those manuscripts. Even if those words are not original (and there is no way of knowing), they are as good as any other non-original word(s) but at least better fit a 'standard/convention' adopted by all. As an example you quoted are words like: jadli, chhetee, jhabday, etc. Here I will pick jhabday. Similarly, from (Bulleh) Shah and shoh, I will pick shoh. Another thing. I am sure you have the beautiful 'Kalam-e Bulleh Shah' published by Packages Ltd, Lahore with an introduction by Dr. Syed Nazir Ahmad. Here also you will find some useful comparisons in introduction and some in the last part on explanantions.

Name:	Rupinder - June 25 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
Location:	london, UK
Comments:	Tauk Day Boli Aaaj Vay Ghungay Kaloo, Ghoom Gay. Aaaj Ma Val Pitth Kar Day, Laavaris Kaloo Baan Pay. Zalaam Zabaan Vaad Pay. Rupe

Name:	Saeed - June 25 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Paa Jee, Iqbal Salahuddin horaaN dee tin jildaaN wich Punjabi to Punjabi lught (kosh) daa wazan paNj kilo je. te inj ee baaqi kitaabaaN daa wazan milaa ke paNj kilo. kul wazan 10 kilo. Theek ey Paa Jee. Now let us discuss the most popular kafi of Bulleh Shah. Najam Sahib wrote it as below: teyrey ishq nachaayeeaaN wey kar theyyaa theyyaa, boRheeN wey tabeebaa meyNdee khabar geyeeaa. (other fellows wrote it: teyrey ishq nachaayaa kar ke theyyaa theyyaa, chheti (some wrote jhabde) bohReeN way tabeebaa naheeN te meyN mar geyeeaaN. The last part of this kaafee according to Najam Sahib: bullhaa shah inaayet saanooN aaNdaa boohey, jeehNdey ishq pehnaaey saanooN saawey te soohey, jaaN meyN maaree uDaaree mil peyaa wahiyaa, Here Maqsood Saqib Jee writes (and others also wrote with little changes): bullha shoh ney aaNdaa meynooN inaayet de boohey, jis meynooN pawaaey choley saaway te soohey, JaaN meyN maaree hey aDDee, mil peyaa hey wahee aa, If you have kulyaate Bulleh Shah, then just compare this texts. Regards.

Name:	Bali K. Deol - June 25 2004
E-mail:	swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:	Hi Sameer, Its a beautiful song, and its sung by Sukhwinder Singh.

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 24 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Saeed Ji. Also, include a dictionary of English-Urdu (remmember it is English-Urdu and not Urdu-English). Javed Zaki

Name:	Saeed - June 24 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Paa Zaki Jee, I will do it.

Name:

E-mail:

Saeed Ji.

Please make a reasonable set of Panjabi books (your selection will be accepted, but it must include Panjabi dictionary) and mail to the following address before July 1st. You can call to make arrangment for payment.
Dr. Khlaida Zaki (my wife) will be leaving Lahore on July 3rd. I will inform her about this transaction and you can call her after 8:00pm. Take care.

Javed Zaki

Dr. Khalida Zaki (Visiting Faculty)
Lahore University of Management Sciences
Opposite Sector U, DHA
Lahore - 54792, Pakistan
Telephone: 5722670 ext.3351

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 24 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Saeed Ji. Please make a reasonable set of Panjabi books (your selection will be accepted, but it must include Panjabi dictionary) and mail to the following address before July 1st. You can call to make arrangment for payment. Dr. Khlaida Zaki (my wife) will be leaving Lahore on July 3rd. I will inform her about this transaction and you can call her after 8:00pm. Take care. Javed Zaki Dr. Khalida Zaki (Visiting Faculty) Lahore University of Management Sciences, Opposite Sector U, DHA, Lahore - 54792, Pakistan Telephone: 5722670 ext.3351

Name:

Sardarz - June 24 2004

E-mail:

gghuiyhgui@gyg.com

Shahid Ji,
Actually thats a intresting way of looking at it,thanks for the insight.

Rajeev Ji
After puttingSoor(Wild Boar) and PlangH(Leopard) in perspective,it makes absolute sense.Thanks for sharing your views.

Sameer Ji,
Thats a very intresting topic to write/sing a song on.If you succeed in locating the singer/album or a link do share it.

Regards.

Name:	Sameer - June 24 2004
E-mail:	sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:	That was a good poem you wrote. I enjoyed reading it. Hey, do you, Bali or anybody else know the name of the singer and album of this one song. It starts with, "ni jinde teray pind wich ik pardesi aaya......hatheeN khoonda, modhay teh khaisi vey...choti(or nikki) umre hoye pardesi vey.....sada watan na koi...jinde meriye... Something like an old man visiting his village after spending his life abroad....the lyrics of this song are very penetrating..

Name:

rajeev - June 24 2004

E-mail:

sardarz veer jee

There are two versions of this kafi (as with most others).. In one version the line goes
"chor shang ne gheri"
Here chor-shang means thieve and robber (chor tae daaku)

another version of the kafi as sung by some goes
"soor palangh ne gheri"
This has been translated as Soor = Wild boar (junglee soor) and palangh = tiger etc.

Hope that helps..
Rajeev

Name:	Shahid - June 24 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Sardarz Ji: meree jachay eh shair samjhan laee jo Sassi naal hoya see, oh sahmanay rakhan dee loR ay. khwabaN wichh aam tor tay mail hoNday neN, wochhoRay nahiN paiNday. per neeNder, ghaflat, sustee, wich sachi muchee ghareN aaya mehboob thief tay dakoo (shaNg) udhal kay lay jaNday hen, jes da pata os neeNder choN akh khulan tay ee painda ay.

Name:	dullabhatti - June 24 2004
E-mail:	dullabhatt47__@yahoo.com
Comments:	Sukhbir paa'ji, you guess right. It was not a poem though..I wrote something impromptu. You can probably also see I wrote this under the influence of a poem by one of your and my famous poet - raatiN ishaq jhanaN wich naahwaN.....murh ke desh paunjab hi aawaN..waddi tukki zaat da main akhwaawaN...

Name:

Sardarz - June 24 2004

E-mail:

iuiuhiuhui@hbb.com

Here is this very piece(Aa mil yaar...)sung by Parkash kaur

http://sadapunjab.com/PlayList.asp?SONG_SL=1&SONG_SL=2&SONG_SL=3&SONG_SL=4&SONG_SL=5&SONG_SL=6&SONG_SL=7&SONG_SL=166&SONG_SL=167&SONG_SL=168&SONG_SL=169&SONG_SL=170&SONG_SL=171&SONG_SL=172&SONG_SL=173&SONG_SL=174&SONG_SL=175&F=Aa_Milyaar&SONG_SL=290&SONG_SL=298&SONG_SL=310&SONG_SL=320&SONG_SL=337&SONG_SL=354&SONG_SL=355&SONG_SL=404&SONG_SL=427&SONG_SL=441&SONG_SL=473&SONG_SL=477&SONG_SL=482&SUBMIT=LISTEN+TO+YOUR+PLAY+LIST

Enjoy

Name:

Sardarz - June 24 2004

E-mail:

bhiuy@aba.com

Javed Zaki - June 23 2004

Dosto,

It was pretty easy to come up with a view point and post it in response to Saeed Ji's querries.
But guess what I have been listening to this piece of Bulleh Shah sung by Parkash Kaur, but am unable to come up with a explanation for these lines.So, pls. contribute your view points and lets see what we get from a collective thinking.

The English version by Suman ji, reads

Aa mil yaar saar le meri, meri jaan dukhaan ne gheri.
Andar khvaab vichoda hoya, khabar na paindi teri.
Sunni ban vich lutti saiyaan, chor shaang ne gheri

The last line here "chor shaang ne gheri", if read in the Gurmukhi part of the front page of APNA reads like this..
"Soor PlangH ne gheri"
Uder the foot notes the word "PlangH", is explained as "BagiaaRH" (Leopard)
what would be the meaning of the word"Soor or Sur"

Regards.

Name:	Khan - June 24 2004
E-mail:	hemanth@soon.com
My URL:	http://www.deminotec.com
Location:	Kitchener, On Canada
Comments:	Hi Afghans, I am very happy seeing afghan: Pashto, Dari website. I would like to introduce a website which is doing pashto dictionary,Pashto softwares,Pashto,Pashto email,Dari,Afghanistan,Dari softwares and lot more... Regards, Khan & Smith

Name:	Shahid - June 24 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Friends: I was out so missed this interesting and informative discussion. What a difference a day makes!!! Pardon my phrase: Bulleh Shah tay saDay hor waDeray intellectual thamm oh hathhee hen jehRay ajj vee anheyaN day hathheN chaRhay hoey neN. Ikk tay ohnaN nay jo kujh aakhya see, saDay taeeN upRawan walayaN tay likhan waliyaN ohday wich apnay walloN ee hun teeker wadhay tay wadha karan dee reet nahiN chhaDDee, tay dooja oh background/context/mood/haal/wajad jes wich dubb kay classical bazurgaaN oh 'kaafi' ya kavita aakhi hovay gee, saDay kisay kol wee nahiN. esay paroN os da theek convey kerna hor wee aukha ho jaNda ay. shairee wichh aakhay dili jazbiyaN dee translation nahiN ho sakdee. ohday wich vertay lafzaN dee niray superficial equivalence labhay ja sakday neN tay superficial matlab ghaRay ja sakday neN. per jay lafz ee badlay gaey hovan, tay fer Allah khair.... ghaRyali deo nikal nee mera piya ghar aaya laal nee meN es nuN jiveN samjhya haaN oh kujh inj jay. Bulleh Shah dunyavi ghaRyali nuN 'set free' karn dee gall nahiN aakhda pya. sagoN asal qudrat rakhan waly nuN kehnDa pya japda ay, paee abolish ghaRyaN tay ghaRyali taaN jay menuN jo ajj labhya ay oh sadaa laee ajj ee rahway. sagoN 'ajj' hunn ee hunn tay ruk javay. dooji len oh wajah paee dasdee ay jes paroN Bulleh Shah waqt nuN jooRna chahNda ay (space-time nuN bannhan dee gaal jay jehRee aseeN Physicists ajj wee samjhan tay samjhan day aahr kernay paey haaN) Panjabi shairee wich Farsi ya Urdu shairee wanger 'wazan' nahiN honda. Saree 'matraN' dee kheD hay Panjabi shairee tay lafzaN nuN lameray tay chhoTaray karan dee shair nuN poori khull hoNdee ay. welay day ghaTTay neN chhokhay saray asal lafzaN day suchhay moti gawa dittay heN, essay paroN aseeN ajj rooRee ya raaRee tay raRRi day chakkraN wich paey hoey haaN. chalo esay bahanay shoq tay dard rakhan waliyaN nuN research karan da moqa mil jaNda ay tay so called 't'raqqi pasaNdaN' nuN wee apni movement wadhawan da jawaz wee. 22 May 2004 day Nawa-i-waqt day issue wich Fateh Mohammad Malik horaN apnay mazmoon 'Islam, Panjab aur Urdu' wich babay Farid horaN da ikk shlok inj likhya see: uThh Farida sutteya jhaRoo deh m'seet tu soey Rabb jagay teree DahDay naal preet Just one example as to how motivated intellectuals can advance their cause(s). meN tay eh aakhan tay majboor ho janaN: bhar bhar zehar piyalay pivay qadam qadam tay jhakay mot Bulheya kaheN asaaN merna nahiN Shahid nuN vee jeena dass

Name:	Sajid Chaudhry - June 24 2004
E-mail:	patanahin@aaho.dom
My URL:	http://www.apnaorg.com
Location:	Sahiwal, PUNJAB Pakistan
Comments:	Muhammad Saleem Pasha Jee There is nothing wrong with APNA front page.It's working fine.There may be an sync error of your ISP Proxy with APNA Server please refresh page prssing Ctrl key I hope it will solve your problem. If still there is error remove all temp internet files and cookies and refresh page holding Ctrl key down.

Name:	Muhammad Saleem Pasha - June 24 2004
E-mail:	pashupk@yahoo.com
Location:	Islamabad, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Is there any ptechnical problem with the site www.apnaorg.com, which is not opening properly from the last few days. I have tried my best to re- search from google and could not open it. Only interface of the site opens with the 8 pictures of our sufi poets and then downloading ends. If the personal staff is reading it, please solve this problem.,br. Thanks,br. Pahsa

Name:	Saeed - June 24 2004
E-mail:	saeedcc@coolgoose.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Rajeev Jee, Thanks for the explanation. But you Paa Jee, you also did the same mistake which most of the compilers did in their books about Bulleh Shah. You wrote: If we read the kafi further it becomes clear.. The last lines go "Bullah shah dee saej pyaari, nee main taaran haare taari kiven kiven hun aaee vaaree, hun vichdan hoyaa muhaal nee" Najam Sahib writes: "Bullah shoh (not Shah) dee cheyj niyaaree (not pyaari), nee meyN taaran-haarrey taaree, keeveyN keeyeN huN* aaee waaree, huN* wichhRaN* hoyaa mohaal nee, ghaRyaalee deyo nikaal nee, aj pee ghar aayaa laal nee.

Name:	Saeed - June 24 2004
E-mail:	saeedcc@coolgoose.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Zaki Jee te Sardarz Jee, Asif Khan horaaN neY lafz "raRRee ya ruRRee" likhyaa. Ehdey utey pesh ya zabar naheeN paaee. Najam Sahib neyN jo 35 kaafiyaaN sodhiyaaN ohnaaN dee photostate meyrey kol ey. ohnaaN r uttey zabar paaee "raRRee" likhyaa. Dr. Faqir, Maqsood Saqib, Maqbook Muzaffar te hornaaN 'rooRee' likhyaa. Najam Sahib horaaN neyN jo Bulleh Shah deeyaaN kaafiyaaN sodhiyaaN neyN oh Bulleh Shah barey likhiyaaN Shahmukhi te Gurmukhi deeyaaN aam kitaabaaN toN boht saariyaaN thaaNwaaN te faraq rakhdiy neyN. GhaRyaalee deyo nikaal nee waalee kaafee de boht saarey baNdaaN wich faraq ey. meyN Bulleh Shah baarey jiniyaaN vee kitaabaaN neyN ohnaaN da bastaa banh ke Lahore Najam Sahib kol ley ke jaawaaN gaa te ohnaaN deeyaaN kaafiyaaN te baaqiyaaN deeyaaN likhtaaN daa faraq saamney rakhaaN gaa. GhaRyaalee deyo nikaal nee waalee kaafee wich Najam Sahib neyN che baNd likhey neyN baqiyaaN neyN noN das te yaaraaN likhey neyN. baNdaaN de lafzaaN te misriyaaN wich vee dher faraq ey. Zaki Jee, tuhaaDee wazaahat da shukriyaa. tusee meyrey ilm wich waadhaa kar rahey o. Paa Jee, eh kam mil jul key ee karnaa eyN.

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 24 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Rammah Ji. There is some problem with posting. In my recent comment on Bullah Shah, a whole section has been deleted. Javed Zaki

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - June 23 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	Is this a poem by our own DullaBhatti? sohna desh Punjab sara iss Dulleh di baar. raatiN ishaq jhanaa wich naahve, Uth sawere Raavi kanDay beh ke Rabb da naam dhiyaawe, sikhar dupehray Sutlej de wich nangay pinDay taariaN laawe, geet ishaq de gaawe.. jungle bailay majhiyaN chaare, vanjjli ishaq sunaawe... waangh nadi de nach'di tapp'di Heer saleTi aawe.. sir te ohday chhikku choori, baaNhwa pai hilaawe. lakk matkaawe. iss Dulleh di rooh wich ikko vaari kai sadiyaN di treh pai laamboo laawe.. machan dio mainu ishaq de laamboo koi na pare hataawe.. eh Dulleh di rooh baar baar desh Punjabay aawe. ishaq jhanaa wich naahwe taariaN laawe..

Name:

E-mail:

Saeed Ji, Sardarz Ji te Rajeev ji.

Pehli gal raRRi, roRi te rooRi waali. EhnaaN vichoN �rooRi� naaN ke band di shi�ri zaroortaaN paroN (tol te wazan) balke es band vich ditti soch te fikar paroN vi monasab lagg de. RaRRi parhan naal rawaani neiN rehNdi te sakta jiya lagg de. Mein baRi der toN es masle te gal karna chahNda saaN je Bullah Shah te Shah Hussain nuN aam log ik khaas tareeqe naal ee vekhan de aadi neiN, sawaaye kujh lokaaN de. JeveeN Najam Sahib; jinhaan neiN saare sufi BabyaaN di sha�iri nuN ik naveeN te acharj tareeqe naal parkhiya te likhya. Ik gal te saaf zaahar e je Bullah Shah hori �Organized Religion� diyaaN kadoortaan toN taNg neiN te os di nan-pasaNdi da khull ke izhaar kar de neiN.,b> Bullah Shah horaaN te vi Sarmad di taraan �anal-haqq � da ilzaam lagya si. AamaaN neiN khaasaaN di gal naaN samjhi te kufar da fatwa laa ditta �Bullah te apne aap nuN Rab aakhda e, Bullah kaafir ho giya e, ehnooN tanggo�. Bullah Shah hori �RaatiN jaagiN kariN ibaadat . . . . . . � waale duya-daar aamaaN waaNger neiN jehRe khalqat toN wakh reh ke �self-alienation� da shikaar ho jaaNde neiN. Jithe Bullah Shah hori �anal-haqq � meiN haqq te aaN� kehNde neiN othe dunya-daar MullaaN �meiN ee aaN, meiN ee aaN� keNda e. It is an extreme case of self-obsession; an attribute of psychological nature, which may evolve negative aspects of a personality and may become its �master identity/status�. �Dog� as used by Bullah Shah, could be most appropriate metaphor to represent that person. (Baaqi fer)

In �GhaRyaali deo nakaal nee, merey piya ghar aaye�, I have completely different understanding and would like to dwell on it later.

Javed Zaki

Name:

rajeev - June 23 2004

E-mail:

sajid veera

wah wah wah wah wah!! ae hoi naa koi gall.. majaaa aa gaya.. by the way I am the first one to register.. yoo hoooooooooooo!!!

safir sahab, jaldi approve kar deo pllleaaase.. it would be much more fun..

Sat Sri Akal!

Name:	Sajid Chaudhry - June 23 2004
E-mail:	sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL:	http://www.apnaorg.com
Location:	Sahiwal, PUNJAB Pakistan
Comments:	Rajeev Veer Jee How about this reward if Rammah jee approves it. -:) New APNA DISCUSSION FORUM cheers...

Name:

Sardarz - June 23 2004

E-mail:

hyuihyuhu@abc.com

Saeed Ji,

In villages usually outside the traditional house or haveli there is a open courtyard where the "DRY" household garbage accumulates in a heap, like paper,dust,cow droppings,paralee(Rice stems) etc.
This heap being higher from the ground level and being dry makes it warm when sat upon by the dogs, It also is a strategic position for a house dog to perch upon.

There is a tradition called "JAGRATA" where people keep wake all night and chant/sing God's name.
So, Bullah is rightly comparing a ignorant person who wakes up all night during a "JAGRATA", to a dog who keeps awake all night barking and towards the end of the night goes on the rooRee heap to rest, just like the "JAGRATA" person would go back to his mundane routine of life,engrossed in the very wordly things from which he wants out!!!!

I think the dogs being dogs prefer "rooRee"(Warm,soft heap of garbage)to "raRRee" (hard soil) :-)

Rajeev Ji,
You are right it could be written the other way around too..

Regards

Name:

rajeev - June 23 2004

E-mail:

saeed veer jee May be roRRee is somehow derived from roRRa as in "rastae daa roRRa". In Punjab/Delhi small stones used for construction are still called roRRee, bajree etc.

My 2 paisae worth about why dogs would sleep there. I think Baba jee is trying to tell us that the dogs will endure all kind of mistreatment like beating, sleeping on uncomfortable roRRee etc. but won't budge from their owner's door.
"Khasam apne daa dar naa chaddae"

sajid veera

I tried to answer two questions today. I am becoming a good boy now. How about posting an old song to reward my efforts:-):-).. hee hee

Rab Raakha!

Name:

rajeev - June 23 2004

E-mail:

Untitled Document Dear Sardarz

Good analysis. But I have one humble suggestion. You wrote " Now literally speaking, if Bulleh Shah is with his beloved after a long separation (a female in worldly terms, God in spiritual terms)" Actually, its the other way around. Baba Bulley Shah, Pir Farid and all Bhakti tradition Sufis and Gurus wrote the verses considering themselves as the females longing for their Beloved, God.

If we read the kafi further it becomes clear.. The last lines go
"Bullah shah dee saej pyaari, nee main taaran haare taari
kiven kiven hun aaee vaaree, hun vichdan hoyaa muhaal nee"

Actually Madho Lal Hussain, Baba Nanak etc. all have written in the female gender. The Vaishanav(a Hindu sect) poetry is also composed with the writer as a Gopi longing for Sri Krishna's "vassal"( known as "Madhur Russ"). These kind of compositions dominate Indian classical music circles even today.
As far as I know, this is one of the major differences between Rumi, Tabrezi and our Sufis. Rumi/Tabrezi's verses are written with God as a female and their longing for Her.

Bhul chuk muaaf, khush raho!

Rajeev

Name:	Saeed - June 23 2004
E-mail:	saeedcc@coolgoose.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Thanks Sardarz Jee. I think both the translations are OK. Let us jump on another verse of Bulleh Shah, raateeN jaageyN kareyN ibaadat, raateeN jaagaN* kuttey, tethoN uttey, bhoNkaN*oN baNd mool naa hundey, jaa rooRee (or raRRee) tey suttey jaa "raRRee" (hard soil) te suttey, (Here most of the writers mentioned the word "rooRee" (heap of rubbish or trash-heap). Is it rooRee or raRRee. Now question arises that a dog really sleeps on rooRee or raRRee? Thanks.

Name:	Rupinder - June 23 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Am I the only person born ( and self taught) outside of Panjab ( Ie India and pakistan) who is attempting to write in Panjabi? Are their others? Rupe

Name:

Sradarz - June 23 2004

E-mail:

jnccuiui@visto.com

Javed Zaki - June 15 2004

Saeed Ji,

First of all thanks for putting me in the august company of the likes of the Dr.�s (Shahid Ji & Zaki Ji), maaN Nall SHatti pHull Gayee :-)
Here are my 2 cents�
Suman Ji�s translation makes perfect sense in understanding what the author implies and what he is trying to say

Let us first consider the case of �Time keeper�.
If you put the meaning literally, it would mean in the times Bulleh Shah lived there were time keepers who rang a bell (Gharyaal) to keep a record of time, while it could make sense in day time, but at night, I don�t think anyone can sleep if this were the case. So, I would not think Bulleh Shah is talking about a timekeeper with a �Gharyaal� in hand

Now lets consider the other translation of �Watchman�
As we all know the watchman (Of 20 yrs ago, by now they must all be extinct), when goes around the village or a Kasba, he shouts his presence/location saying something similar to �Jagdae Raho� and also announces how many �Pehars� have passed since nightfall or how many �Pehars� are left for the day break.

Now literally speaking, if Bulleh Shah is with his beloved after a long separation (a female in worldly terms, God in spiritual terms), and the watchman is shouting how much, of the night has passed away, the watchman�s voice to Bullah would be like the sounding of �Gharyaal� reminding him of the elapsed time.

So, I would tend to agree with the watchman explanation.
No, wonder, the great poets wrote in a way to embody the circumstances of their times in their poetry. These circumstances may change over the centuries and the original meaning though may not be any different than the modern interpretation in implication, but you would not get the Russ out of the poetry if you are unable to imagine or come up with the original circumstances.

Regards

Name:	Rupinder - June 23 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Toot Gayah Ghura Jee, Atma Vee Ambar Geeaay Vee. Jeevan Chukkar Chull Daa Nee, Baarash Deh Hanjoo Naal Jee. Rupinder

Name:	Saeed - June 23 2004
E-mail:	saeedcc@coolgoose.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Sardars, Dr. Shahid Jee,Dr. Zaki Jee and other friends, There is one Kafi of Bulleh Shah, GhaRyaalee deyo nikaal nee, aj pee ghar aaya laal nee. Most of the learned men explained this part of kafi as "Dismiss (fire)the watchman, now drink the wine (of Union) as my Beloved has come home himself." In the site www.apnaorg.com, Suman Kashyap translated it as below: Banish the timekeeper, my beloved has come home, my precious one. I personally think Suman's translation is nearer to the text as compare to the others all including Mian Zafar Maqbool who compiled a thick volume book Kalam Bulleh Shah with Urdu translation. Comment on it please.If you have some other explanation please write on the board.

Name:	Saeed - June 23 2004
E-mail:	saeedcc@coolgoose.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Sardars, Dr. Shahid Jee,Dr. Zaki Jee and other friends, There is one Kafi of Bulleh Shah, GhaRyaalee deyo nikaal nee, aj pee ghar aaya laal nee. Most of the learned men explained this part of kafi as "Dismiss (fire)the watchman, now drink the wine (of Union) as my Beloved has come house himself." In the site www.apnaorg.com, Suman Kashyap translated it as below: Banish the timekeeper, my beloved has come home, my precious one. I personally think Suman's translation is nearer to the text as compare to the others all including Mian Zafar Maqbool who compiled a thick volume book Kalam Bulleh Shah with Urdu translation. Comment on it please.If you have some other explanation please write on the board.

Name:	Saeed - June 23 2004
E-mail:	saeedcc@coolgoose.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Sardars, Dr. Shahid Jee,Dr. Zaki Jee and other friends, There is one Kafi of Bulleh Shah, GhaRyaalee deyo nikaal nee, aj pee ghar aaya laal nee. Most of the learned men explained this part of kafi as

Name:	rajeev - June 23 2004
E-mail:	pata_nahin@kithe.com
Comments:	Kithe haige o sajjano! This is just a test to see if this forum is still working. Bade dinaa ton kisse nae post nahin kittaa.. Sat Sri Akal

Name:	Rupinder - June 21 2004
E-mail:	Rupinder.Dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Dil Day Sholay Shor Machchaay, Dil Day Sholay Shor Machchaay, Munn NooN Hosh Naa Aaay Munn NooN Hosh Naa Aaay, Tazaab, Tofaan, Tamana! Mumtaa, Raakee Toot Gayee, Mumtaa, Raakee Toot Gayee, Kabarstan Vich Loot Gayee, Kabarstan Vich Loot Gayee, Khatthee, Karma, Koh Gayee! Eh Kaisaa Hai Zalaam? Ek Pal Vich Das Hazaar Pal Phut gay, Ek Pal Vich Ousaas Mit Gay. Eh Phool daa Mali See Sahaara, Hun Ek MassooN Hai Awara. Mittee Jeevan Khudaa Nai dittee, Yattree Kadham Souch Kay Rakko, Pal Daa Mool Hai Bahut Keematee. Jo Dinn Daa, Oh Lain Daa. Dil Day Sholay Shor Machchaay, Dil Day Sholay Shor Machchaay R.S.Dhillon

Name:	Rupinder - June 21 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	How about a Punjabi dictionary on APNA, which shows Punjabi words in Shahmukhi, Gurumukhi and Roman? Perhaps the idea could be extended to include recently invented words? Rupe

Name:	Akhilesh - June 19 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL:	http://members.aol.com/mahapunjab/home.html
Comments:	I keep seeing two different versions of this forum with different posts from the last couple of days? Anyway on one version Sameer Jee made a good suggestion for a new forum with different topic headings to attract more members to this site. I also agree with him about shifting the music section towards the top of the site and push old articles towards the bottom. May i suggest though that APNA enforces strict moderation if a new forum is created to prevent this site from attracting those with too much free time on their hands and who are only out to antagonize others. It should be kept 18+ in my opinion so that we can all discuss in an adult manor.

Name:	Rupinder - June 16 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Kiddhaa Saabh, I have just come back from Rome , Italy , and I found that their word for Key is Chabbi, and one of their words for room is Cammera. More impressively for Pineapple they use Annas. So let�s learn something from them. The word Strawberry is alien to Punjabi. Let us use Fragolaa, which is the Italian word. In regards to my list on financial terms, it seems Dr Tariq Rehman�s views easily sit with my ideas of developing words for different areas. So Anyone had any ideas yet? Here are some of my suggestions, Goal CongruenceIektaa Muxath Prepayments Accruals Capital ( funds) Equity Depreciation Mool Pigal naa Residual Income Transfer Pricing Keemat Saudaa Annuity Saal Beaaj Net Present Value Aajj Daa Mul Investment Amortisation Keemat Pigal nee Gearing Overhead Uppa lai Karach Budget Dhunkaah Raashi Variable Cost Badhalee Munghaaee Fixed Cost Pakkee Munghaaee Contribution Nafaa Karach Gross Margin Turnover

Name:	Rupinder - June 16 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Kiddhaa Saabh, I have just come back from Rome , Italy , and I found that their word for Key is Chabbi, and one of their words for room is Cammera. More impressively for Pineapple they use Annas. So let�s learn something from them. The word Strawberry is alien to Punjabi. Let us use Fragolaa, which is the Italian word. In regards to my list on financial terms, it seems Dr Tariq Rehman�s views easily sit with my ideas of developing words for different areas. So Anyone had any ideas yet? Here are some of my suggestions, Goal Congruence Iektaa Muxath Prepayments Accruals Capital ( funds) Equity Depreciation Mool Pigal naa Residual Income Transfer Pricing Keemat Saudaa Annuity Saal Beaaj Net Present Value Aajj Daa Mul Investment Amortisation Keemat Pigal nee Gearing Overhead Uppa lai Karach Budget Dhunkaah Raashi Variable Cost Badhalee Munghaaee Fixed Cost Pakkee Munghaaee Contribution Nafaa Karach Gross Margin Turnover

Name:	kaurasach - June 15 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Eh site oh aalsi yan nalayak niyanay wargi hay jis nus har sawere paani pa kay uthana painda. Nahin tan murh saun jaandi ay. kumbhkaran di bhen hai.

Name:

E-mail:

Sajno. ik nawaaN 'Geet' haazar e, chuss lo.

..... GEET .......

Gher waNj aa ve channa
Raat jodayaaN waali
Ji nuN paT-paT khaaNdi e
JiNd tatRi kurlaaNdi e

KaalyaaN badlaaN rim-jhim laaee
Rooh meri fir vi tarhaaee
Reyt thalaaN jeyee maaNdi e
EveN Deh Deh jaaNdi e
.... Ji nuN paT-paT khaaNdi e

TitliaaN raNg phhulaaN te aaye
SaariaaN sakhiaaN saaloo paaye
SanooN rutt naN bhaaNdi e
Teri yaad sataaNdi e
.... Ji nuN paT-paT khaaNdi e

DiviaaN naal sajaya weRha
Lo lo de vich mokhRa tera
Akh jhapki naN jaaNdi e
Terey Jhaole khaaNdi e
.....Ji nuN paT-paT khaaNdi e
.....jiNd tatRi kurlaaNdi e

Javed Zaki

Name:	Akhilesh - June 14 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	The politics of language in Pakistan Punjabi yet to get due status, despite struggle http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040614/edit.htm#6

Name:	mugu - June 13 2004
E-mail:	mugu@mugu.com
Comments:	mogoooooooooooiooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Name:	Nimrit - June 12 2004
E-mail:	cdu_jatt@hotmail.com
Location:	toronto, Canada
Comments:	Sat Sri Akal, i am asking you guys somthin thats little out of way from your regular discussion, bu ti beleive there is nobody who would have better info. tha you guys.Can you guys tell me more about last name Madaan or Madan, its a sikh last name and i believe belong to Arora or Khatri caste. thanks

Name:	Akhilesh - June 12 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Another disturbing news on historical sites of Punjab being pulled down: Fresco of Ranjit Singh�s era destroyed http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040612/punjab1.htm#8

Name:	Abram - June 12 2004
E-mail:	asd@usa.net
My URL:
Comments:	COOL !!! I love google

Name:	Balvinder Ruby - June 11 2004
E-mail:	bsruby@bigfoot.com
My URL:	http://www.dhaliwal-solutions.com/dawinder
Location:	Sydney, NSW Australia
Comments:	Please check out punabi poems by Dawinder Singh Sydney at www.dhaliwal-solutions.com/dawinder.html

Name:	Akhilesh - June 11 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear kaurasach Jee, Im sorry but have not come across any photos of this building. This is the first time i have even heard about it. I have tried searching the net but did not manage to find any pictures and like you said, it is no more standing but has been sadly demolished. It is unfortunate that many historical sites of Punjab have been left to neglect or pulled down.

Name:	kaurasach - June 11 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Akhilesh, Since you have good source of reference. There used to be Garhi or a haveli, I think it was called Kaurji ki Haveli built about 200 years back. It was located in Kharar. I used to pass by the impressive structure. But, regretfully, didn't stop to take a picture. One time it was no more and an ugly shopping structure replaced it - supposedly owned by Mehar Mittal the Punjabi commedian. Do you or anyone has a picture of it?

Name:	Safir Rammah - June 11 2004
E-mail:	rammah@apnaorg.com
My URL:	http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jun2004-daily/11-06-2004/oped/o3.htm
Location:	Fairfax, VA USA
Comments:	Friends: This one is an excellent article by Dr. Tariq Rehman, a renowned linguistic. I am glad to note that Dr. sahib has given his opposing opinion on Fateh Muhammad Malik�s theory that Urdu is a refined form of Punjabi, and has also recognized the work of our friend Saeed Farani ji. Here are some quotations from the article. I will later post it on APNA web page: As there is much talk about creating an educated Punjab (Parha likha Punjab), we can begin with Punjabi. It is the mother tongue of most Pakistanis and it is not an unrefined form of Urdu; it is a language in its own right. It does share some vocabulary items with Urdu but that makes the two cognates, as are many other languages of the world. Indeed, since most languages of Europe, Iran and North India and Pakistan are from the Indo-European family and there are similarities between them. That does not make Urdu a refined form of Punjabi. Indeed, there is no such thing as a refined language. Languages are put to different uses and words are developed. According to these functions. If we start using Punjabi in the court, it will soon develop a legalistic vocabulary. If we start using it in the leisured classes who can afford to be very polite and cultured, Punjabi will develop a vocabulary of high culture. As it is, we tend to marginalise Punjabi by being ashamed of it. We even call it the language of the rustics washing our urban hands off it. Punjabi is, indeed, the biggest language of Pakistan so its spoken form is not threatened. But the written form is almost dead. Only some writers and activists -like Saeed Farani�s series of writings on the classical Punjabi poets- keep the literary language alive. Fakhar Zaman�s World Punjabi conferences and the Punjabi Lok Mela on 21 February 2004 are welcome signs that activists have not given up. But the Punjabi middle and upper classes have given up. If Punjabi is to be given life, this is the time to teach it in all schools to all children in the Punjab. And why stop at Punjabi? We are rich in languages. Let us treat them as cultural assets and not liabilities. As it is, the forces of globalisation and modernity are killing the languages of the world at a very fast pace. Let us, at least, change our language policy so as to add English and Urdu to our repertoire of linguistic skills without destroying our mother tongues, our authentic selves, our culture and our identity.

Name:	Rupe - June 11 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
My URL:	http://www.quamiekta.com/quami/ekta/310965.html
Comments:	Please post your comments re above story. I would like to know how much further I need to go, before I can say I fully understand usage of Punjabi. In regards to New words , I would like to know if any of the technical business terms presently have Punjabi equivalents? If not let's create Rupe Goal Congruance Prepayments Accruals Capital ( funds) Equity Deepreciation Residual Income Transfer Pricing Annuity Net Present Value Investment Amortisation Gearing Overhead Budget Variable Cost Fixed Cost Contribution Gross Margin Turnover These will be good enough to start us off, I think, Regards Rupe

Name:	Rupinder - June 11 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
My URL:	http://www.5abi.com/5ratan/
Comments:	Please see above website for detailed Gurumukhi lessons for those who only understand English Regards Roop

Name:	Rupinder - June 11 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Dear All, Hello Again. As some of you know I have lived all my life in UK and have spoken english has primary language, only teaching myself Punjabi in last 2 years. Consequently my style of writing and thinking reflects an English structure, and in fact I have been told is typical of British Punjabi. I am presently very slowly writing a shortish story in Gurumukhi Script. I would first like to know if APNAORG would like to consider publishing it as an article on its website? Secondly if there are any publishers out there, and thirdly if it can br transcribed into Shahmukhi for those who might want to read it, and don't read Gurumukhi.? In regards to my interest in mew word develpment, I am still insisting with same arguement. Please visit www.punjabilit.com for my contribution. I am also about tpo embark on creating Business Punjabi language ( I am an Accountant by profession) and will throw some of my suggestions on this forum once in a while. It would be nice if people got involed and helped. I am too poor to travel to Punjabi conferences, so I hope you folks have been putting forwards my ideas and those of others like me. Bewtween us, I think we should help increase Punjabi lexicon. As English has proved, the media can powerfully pronote new words. Below is a small extract from my work in Progress - Nilaa Noor-: 6) bldyv dw ichrw jB hoS Awey, mYN qw iek munjy qy pYAwh sI[pihlw pihlw qw mYN socyAw Awvdy Gr sI[ iek hor iBAwnk supnw mYnMU Awey Aw sI[ sumglr qy kbrsqwn isr& klpwnk Fimwg dy ivc Awey sn[ pr jB myry surIr nMU ihln dw hoNslw nhIN sI qy bkIAW hwgW du`Ky, mYnMU DmJ sI ieh qw s`c m`c hoey cIjw sI[ lly jB myrw h`Q grDn qk tupIAW, aQy loikq sI[ sB qoN ipAwrI qw g`l ieh sI, ikVkI qoN surwj idAW ikrnW myry qy twp dIAW sIN[ i&r drvwzw kulIAW �qy bldyv myry swmxy K`rW sI[ mYnMU qw Aysw l`gw jysy mYN vwps surMg�c sI! mYN Awvdy h`Q Krky kihAw, � cwcw jI! mYnMU b`cwE! mYN kohIN jsUs nhIN hYN! Pr bldyv ny muskrwky mYnMU bolIAw � p`qr rwm n pYAwh rYN[ ieQy kohIN nI qYnMU mwrU gw[ AwlY, DU`D pIlw� ieh g`l sunky mYN ^S hoeyAw[ bldyv dw ichrw AYmd Kn dy qoN iek &RISqw sI[ mYnMU auhny glws &rw id`qw[ hnyry qoN bwAd cWnw bhuq sundr mYnMU lgIAw[ pr holI holI mYN qw pRIq mwsI dw socn lgpIAw sI[ aNnHW dw kI hwl cwl hogw? Bldyv n mYnMU qw qyrIsw mW qoN vI bwd ipAwr n rwkIAw sI nwly nwl mYnMU pqw lgpIAw, pihlW mYnMU mwsI jI jYml isMG n tolIAW[i&r puls ivc SwmJ hopI[ lwl jI nMU pucIAw vI sI[ tuKrw qy tuKw jorky pOrI ikhwnIN smJ gey[ dok id`nW bwAd gRMQI mYnMU im`ln AwgyAw sI[ aunW qoN mYnMU dspIAw pRIq mwsI n socw mYN mumbY � c gvwr gIA hogw, qy pihly s^qI qy phMc ge sI[g`l inkl peI, �pRIq qw bhuq ^uS hYN�[ mYN qw msw lwmy hoey Aw[ mjbUrI qoN mYnMU rKIAw sI[ nwky mYN KyqI krdw sI, qy myrI pVHweI dI &Is myNgI pYNdI sI[ � jy dsw idnW qk vwps nhIN lotw, gIAnI jI, i&r iP~qy mMUh auh dy[ jw mr pey[ kTor muMdw! Ju`q bolky kihn dw srpMc vly culIAw!� gRMQI n mYnMU dsIAw, Aw g`l krky pRIq mwsI n drvwjw b

Name:	Saeed - June 11 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Here is the mobile number of Fakhar Zaman whose wife died yesterday. 0303-7357261 and res.ph # 042-5833435

Name:	Saeed - June 11 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear APNA Mitro, Here is one sad news which is published in "Business Recorder",: LAHORE (June 11 2004): Shaista Habib a renowned poetess and wife of World Punjabi Congress (WPC) Chairman Fakhr Zaman died here on Thursday. The deceased was indisposed for past few months. Shaista Habib had been working with Radio Pakistan as Deputy Controller Current Affairs. In her literary contribution, particularly in Urdu poetry, she had written a book, 'Sooraj Pe Dastak'. A poetry book in Punjabi was also written by the late. Qul of Shaista Habib will be held on Friday (June 11) at 178-C Model Town Lahore.

Name:	Saeed - June 11 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear APNA Mitro, Here is one sad news: LAHORE (June 11 2004): Shaista Habib a renowned poetess and wife of World Punjabi Congress (WPC) Chairman Fakhr Zaman died here on Thursday. The deceased was indisposed for past few months. Shaista Habib had been working with Radio Pakistan as Deputy Controller Current Affairs. In her literary contribution, particularly in Urdu poetry, she had written a book, 'Sooraj Pe Dastak'. A poetry book in Punjabi was also written by the late. Qul of Shaista Habib will be held on Friday (June 11) at 178-C Model Town Lahore.

Name:

Javed Zaki - June 10 2004

E-mail:

Javed Zaki - June 08 2004

World Punjabi Union meeting

The Nation -Lahore

World Punjabi Union arranged on Wednesday a meeting at Punjab House in honour of famous England based singer Mubashar Alim.
While speaking on the occasion Mubashir said that for the promotion of Punjabi language he has fully cooperated with the World Punjabi Union in England. "We arranged a musical show in the Punjabi festival, which was held in August last at Bradford in which Indian and Pakistani musicians participated." Appreciating World Punjabi Union, he said that there is no doubt that it has in short period of time done a lot to promote Punjabi language.
Sarfraz Syed said that it is a matter of pride that Punjabi is world's 11th most popular language. Chairman World Punjabi Union Mr Mudassar Iqbal Butt said that hopefully Punjabi would regain its lost glory. Ajmal Niazi said that Mudassar Iqbal Butt and his team were able to introduce Punjabi as a subject in schools and that was a great effort. Chairman of Darbar Madholal Mian Abdul Waheed, famous poet Sughra Sadaf, Hussain Shad, Prof Abbas Najmi, Raza Mehmood Hursand, Shehzada Ali Zulqarnain, Abdul Majeed, Prof Ashiq Raheel and Prof Jameel Ahmad Paul also spoke on the occasion.

Name:	Akhilesh - June 10 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL:	http://hometown.aol.com/mahapunjab/home.html
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear friends, Since knowledge is power and most Punjabis i encounter seem to lack an in-depth knowledge about our motherland i am going to add a 'recommended reading' section to my homepage. I have ordered a few books on Punjab from Amazon.co.uk for my own leisure and also to possibly review and recommend them to others through my homepage. Does anyone know of any books on Punjab (Can be anything from story books, children's books, books of poetry, sociological studies, history, biographies etc) that are worth reading and something you would recommend others to buy? If so, id appreciate if you could send me the names of the books, the name of the author, publication date etc and i will begin to start adding titles to the 'recommended reading' section. Ideally, i would like to try and find a way where people will be able to purchase books from the distributor via my site (I have no idea how to go about this tho). This is not that i want to make money and have no intention of trying to make any this way but because i would like to make it easy for people to locate and purchase books on Punjab. Reason being because most of the books seem to be out of print and not available in the shops. Many of those that are listed on Amazon are not available for immediate purchase... Thanks to anyone who can help,

Name:	kaurasach - June 09 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Akhilesh these photos of Panja Sahib are nice. On other sites, the photos are run of the mill of a handful of monuments. He also has good articles and info.

Name:	Akhilesh - June 09 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL:	http://hometown.aol.com/mahapunjab/home.html
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Guru Arjun Dev Ji (1563-1606): Sikhs arrive to mark Guru�s martyrdom http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-6-2004_pg7_18 Wah the beautiful �Ihsan Aslam http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-6-2004_pg3_5 Photos of Gurdwara Panja Sahib (Hasan Abdal, West Punjab) http://www.zyworld.com/slam33/panja.htm

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 09 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Rajeev Jee te Sharma Jee. Kevita saraahan da Bohat bohat shukriya. Javed Zaki

Name:	UMUIGBO - June 09 2004
E-mail:	UMUIGBO@LOME.COM
Location:	LOME, LO TOGO
Comments:	NICE SITE KEEP OFF BROTHERS I DON LAND HERE OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Name:	Ajay Sharma - June 09 2004
E-mail:	ajays79@hotmail.com
Location:	Rockhampton, Qld Australia
Comments:	Javed ji Bhaut Khoob, Bahut sohNA likya je. Good use of lyrical words.

Name:	Farhan Wilayat Butt - June 09 2004
E-mail:	oweiru@oeiru.com
My URL:
Location:	Lahore, Punjab Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Comments:	Sir, Can you please remove my previous comments from your guest book?. Actually I mentioned my email addresses in my previous entries therefore I am receiving load of spam mails every day. I need your favour, please remove my previous entries before my email addresses subscribe all over the net. Hope to see an early action from your side. Regards, Farhan.

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 09 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Location:	East Lansing, Mi USA
Comments:	Sajno. Ik naviN "Kafi" hazar e, chus lo. ........KAFI........ Dam-dam pokaar, bas yaar yaar Oho dil da cheyn, dil da qaraar pal pal kerey akhiyaaN chaar chaar MenooN seney laawe baar baar ..... Dam dam pokaar, bas yaar yaar MeN nach nach yaar manawaaN Shala! Bullhe Shah akhwawaaN Sudh budh da sabaq sonaNwaaN Bas ohde ee gunn gaNwaaN ..Haq ramaz di hovey saar saar ..Sach ishq da beRa paar paar ..... Dam dam pokaar, bas yaar yaar ANg aNg vich surt jagaawe Piya Shah Hussain kahaawe Madh shoaq da piyala chaawe Naale peeve, naal piyaawe ..Sunn ishq awaaza taar taar ..JiNd jaan ehde toN waar waar ..... Dam dam pokaar, bas yaar yaar Keeh gooRhyaaN gallaaN pheRyaaN jidde naal akheeN ja laRyaaN Oh karda nakhre aRyaaN OttoN madh barsataaN chaRhyaaN ..SaaDi jiNd thaee e be-qaraar ..Theyya teer ishq da aar paar ..... Dam dam pokaar, bas yaar yaar Javed Zaki

Name:	rajeev - June 08 2004
E-mail:	pata_nahin@kithe.com
Comments:	Javed jee, wah wah! rab raakhaa..

Name:

E-mail:

Rajeev Jee. Here is my own tribute to Dulla Bhatti.

..... Sandal Baar da Dhola .......

Ral dhola gaaeeye gabhroo da
jidde nabhar chaale ve
Sab karmaaN waale ve

Ravi ohda saNwal saaeeN
RaNjhan chan ChanhaaN
Dulla SaNdal baar kareNda
ShahaaN di dhup chaaN
..... Ral dhola gaaeeye...

ChaRhya kala baddal saaeeN
wasya takhat Lahore
RuRhde shahaaN de rajwaaRe
Dulle da haRh zor
...... Ral Dhola gaaeeye...

Dulla jis de sir da saaeeN
Moat vi os toN Dardi
MeN neiN janaaN baar saNdal di
Rab nooN mantaaN kar di
...... Ral Dhola gaaeeye ...

ChaRhya saavi nabhar saaeeN
HatheeN waa diyaaN waagaaN
Dulla shehr Lahore soneeNda
DeNda Shah nooN laagaaN
...... Ral Dhola gaaeeye ...

Raaj kareNda nabhar saaeeN
SaNdal baar di jooh
Dulla aab hiyaati wagda
ShahaaN di naN sooh
...... Ral Dhola gaaeeye....

Javed Zaki

Name:	kaurasach - June 08 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	This is the first time I've heard of "PIRO PREMAN". It will be nice if APNA can put some of her works in both scripts on the website. Or, someone knows a site that has her works. Thanks.

Name:	Shahid - June 08 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Dear kaurasach atay Akhelish ji: I would love to write my article(s) in Gurmukhi script. My problem is that at this time I do not know this script well enough to do a decent job. I had started learning and writing in Gurmukhi, but am still a novice. I am sure there are many 'bi-scripted' friend well versed with both styles of writing. I know Sajid Ji is one. May be someone can do the script translation from Persian-based to Gurmukhi, as has been proposed. I will certainly thank the person in advance.

Name:	Shahid - June 08 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	I would love to write my article(s) in Gurmukhi script. My problem is that at this time I do not know this script well enough to do a decent job. I had started learning and writing in Gurmukhi, but am still a novice. I am sure there are many 'bi-scripted' friend well versed with both styles of writing. I know Sajid Ji is one. May be someone can do the script translation from Persian-based to Gurmukhi, as has been proposed. I will certainly thank the person in advance.

Name:

rajeev - June 08 2004

E-mail:

pata_naeen@kithe.com

Pyaare mitro,
Couple of articles from Dawn this week..

Forgotten Heroes of Punjab
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag13.htm

A Tale of Two Punjabs
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/images/images6.htm

rab rakha

Name:

Akhilesh - June 08 2004

E-mail:

HiTMaN9497@aol.com

Javed Zaki - June 01 2004

Dear Javid Zaki

The forum here is again having problem (posts getting deleted) please send me the link to the photos and description of the Golden Temple (Harmandir Sahib) and i will see if i am allowed to add them to my site.

Thanks,

Name:	Akhilesh - June 08 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear kaurasach Jee, I will ask Shahid Jee if he has any free time available and if he does not mind writing his article 'Haey Panjabi' in Punjabi using Gurmukhi script. In mean time you can read the English version of his same article here - http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=64791 You may have read this before,

Name:	M. Saleem Pasha - June 08 2004
E-mail:	pashupk@hotmail.com
Location:	Islamabad, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Gursharan Jee, Salam Tusi Theek aakhiya a jay eh kutah kam a kinay pehlay eh geet gaya. Behrhaal main Musarrat Nazir di viyah shadi dey geet di casset market wich aun tu pehlaan radio Pakistan tay ik bahut dehati jahi awaz wich sunda saan jis dee tune wich jehRay saaz istaamaal keetay gaey san os wich Punjab di muTiyar da madhaani naal dudh riRkadiyaan hoyaan di awaz v shamil c jehRi sab music roke kay geet wich sunai jandi c. MaiN asal wich Pakistani Punjab dey shehar Gujrat da rehn wala waanN. Gujrat wich maiN Inayat Hussain Bhatti horaaN da neighbour v aaN. OhnaaN da Punjab dey culture nu world wich introduce karwaan wich bahut hissa a. Behrhaal tusi v marey waang loke geetan dey deewanay lagay o tay mainu khushi hoyee a tuhaDey apnay paasey dey geet mainu bahut pasand nain. Surinder kaur horaan di miThee awaz da bachpan tu fan aaN. Asa Singh Mastana v bahut changay gaun waley nain. Main ehnaan dey geet Apna di site tu e sunda haaN. Per mainu bazar wichoun ehnaaN di CD naheeN mildi. Punjabi adab da ik nikaah jeha sevik haaN tay tuhaDey wargay lokaan naal gal baat karan da mauqa mil janda a. Eho bahut a. PASHA

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 07 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Akhilesh Jee. I was browsing through and found some fabulous pictures of "Hari Mander" and suggested to post them on your website. I found your website informative and attractive. Keep it up. Zaki

Name:	kaurasach - June 07 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Akhilesh Transliteration of Haaey Punjabi into Gurmukhi script be appreciated.

Name:	Akhilesh - June 07 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL:	http://hometown.aol.com/mahapunjab/home.html
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear friends, Two good pieces of news today: Lahore to host 12th World Punjabi Conference in 2005 http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_7-6-2004_pg7_19 LAHORE: Countering opposition to the Punjabi institute http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/07/local16.htm Especially found this part very encouraging regarding the 12th WPC - "Mr Zaman said the Indian Punjab, Haryana, Delhi and Himachal Pradesh chief ministers and former Indian Punjab governor have consented to participate in the 12th conference." I have always been of the opinion that in any meet or get together between two sides of Punjab then the entire East Punjab must be represented, not just the Punjab state which is only one part of it. Mr Fakhar Zaman should be saluted for making efforts to include representatives from Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and Delhi (All of which are part of East Punjab) at the 12th WPC. A nice gesture would be to one day hold the WPC in Haryana or HP and aim to expose and promote the regional cultures of these two places. (For example Haryana forms of gidda and folk tales etc and art schools of the Punjab hill states) That brings me to the next article. In my opinion it was the right thing to allow promotion of all regional Punjabi dialects within the future Punjab Institute of Languages, Art and Culture. All regional cultures and dialects of Punjab should be preserved and receive the same amount of promotion and exposure. People should know what is a Multani khussa, a Chamba painting, a Patiala jutti etc etc I believe that one standardized Punjabi written form should exist at official levels (education, government etc) but for purposes of communication, medium of instruction etc Punjabis should use and express themselves in their regional dialects. Javid Zaki Jee, Thanks for your comments. Were you remarking about what i already have on my homepage or were you wanting to submit something to me? Sorry for the confusion.

Name:	gursharan - June 07 2004
E-mail:	abc@abc.com
Comments:	Saleem Pasha Jee, Mussarat Nazir da gaaya hoya eh geet main Aj ton koi 17-18 saal pehle suneya si jadon remix di VABAAW aje chali nahi c. Viah de geetaan di album c. Sahi naam te mainu chete nahi. mainu aapniyaan tapes de Borey vichon labh ke naam v likh dena paina hai. kamm te Kutta jeha hai par kitta ja sakda hai. Changa RAB-RAKHA

Name:	M. Saleem Pasha - June 07 2004
E-mail:	pashupk@hotmail.com
Location:	Islamabad, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Lao Sajno meri naweeN nazam paDo! WAILAY DI AKHEER kikraaN utay tangi reh gae paaTi hoe leer wailay di akheer wanjlee waalay hathaaN paDh lae lohay di shamsheer wailay di akheer choori kuT liandi naheeN aj tay koe vee heer wailay di akheer lahoo di thaaN pani baniya hun dharti da peer wailay di akheer v dhartiay hun jamna chaD dey akheeN bhukhay faqeer wailay di akheer tay es jag tay kadey naheeN badalni maaRiyaaN di taqdeer wailay di akheer

Name:	M. Saleem Pasha - June 07 2004
E-mail:	pashupk@hotmail.com
Location:	Islamabad, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Lao Sajno meri naweeN nazam paDo! WAILAY DI AKHEER kikraaN utay tangi reh gae paaTi hoe leer wailay di akheer wanjlee waalay hathaaN paDh lae lohay di shamsheer wailay di akheer choori kuT liandi naheeN aj tay koe vee heer wailay di akheer lahoo di thaaN pani baniya hun dharti da peer wailay di akheer dhartiay hun jamna chaD dey akheeN bhukhay faqeer wailay di akheer tay es jag tay kadey naheeN badalni maaRiyaaN di taqdeer wailay di akheer

Name:	M. Saleem Pasha - June 07 2004
E-mail:	pashupk@hotmail.com
Location:	Islamabad, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	gursharan Jee, Main tuhadey naal pehli wari gal kar reha waan. "Meri rangli madhaani baahvaan goriyaan" Musarrat Nazir nain remix kar kay gaya hona ain per asal wich eh geet radio Pakistan di koi hore female singer da gaya hoya a. Jadoun mainu pata lagay ga main tuhanu das diyaan ga. Main khoj kar reha waan. Ijazat fer gal howay gee. Pasha

Name:	Ajay Sharma - June 06 2004
E-mail:	ajays79@hotmail.com
Location:	Rockhampton, Qld Australia
Comments:	Dear Friends Postings between June 2 and June 5 are missing from the forum. I gues min also got swept away. So I am requesting my urge again. Could some body guide me to an audio version of Shaheed Bhagat Singh's GHORI? or its lyrics? Thanks Ajay

Name:	Shahid - June 06 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Friends: The Urdu/Panjabi mother tongue of Panjab controversy continues. For a pretty good article on the subject go to the link shown below (the article by Kazy Javed is in English in the Literati section of The News on Sunday, June 6, 2004). http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/jun2004-weekly/nos-06-06-2004/lit.htm#2

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 06 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Akhilesh Jee. A fabulous picture of "Golden Temple and its Historical Description" for your website.

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 06 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Akhilesh Jee. A fabulous picture of "Golden Temple and its Historical Description" for your website.

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 06 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Stories of Gloden Temple Attack - 1984: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3774035.stm

Name:	Sardarz - June 01 2004
E-mail:	vgvgtf2@visto.com
Comments:	Punjabi G, On your recomendation,I listened to this number from Chamkila... Ki jor Garibaan da..jadon pehli Laanv parri te phub nikal gayee meri.. It sure is one of his best works...here it is for all to enjoy.. http://sadapunjab.com/PlayList.asp?SONG_SL=130&SONG_SL =131&SONG_SL=132&SONG_SL=133&SONG_SL=134&SONG_SL =135&SONG_SL=136&SONG_SL=263&SONG_SL =264&SONG_SL=265&SONG_SL=266&SONG_SL =267&SONG_SL=296&F=chamkila_riban+Da&SONG_SL =317&SONG_SL=318&SONG_SL=470&SONG_SL =479&SUBMIT=LISTEN+TO+YOUR+PLAY+LIST Regards.

Name:	gursharan - June 01 2004
E-mail:	abc@abc.com
Comments:	Nimrit jee, eh geet Pakistani singer Mussarat Nazir da gaaya hoya hai hai. Mukhra es geet da hai"Meri rangli madhaani baahvaan goriyaan" eh geet osdi wedding songs di album vich hai. bari hi changi album hai

Name:	Harry Johal - June 01 2004
E-mail:	harryjohal@thenewsmaker.net
My URL:	http://www.balleballeradio.com
Location:	Jalandhar, India
Comments:	Dear Friends I would like to introduce India's One and only 24 x 7 Online Radio Station that Brings Punjabi and Bollywood Entertainment. Along with enjoying the Folk tradition of Punjab ,with this site, U r Invited to Balle Balle Radio http://www.balleballeradio.com regards from Balle Balle Radio

Name:

E-mail:

Nimrit Jee. I have not listened the song "MeN loye loye dudh riRkaaN", but here is my own version of the song.

........GEET........

MeN loye loye dudh riRkaan
Mera kaNgan, chooRa je chhaNke
Meri suss maare menooN jhiRkaaN
.....meN loye loye dudh riRkaan

MeN khoh te paani bharni aaN
Pei lakh siyaape karni aaN
hath choN boka dig dig jaave
GhuND choN takni te darni aan
..... kitey suss na lendi hove biRkaaN
..... Men loye loye dudh riRkaaN

JadoN maahi aawe kam kar ke
OhnooN kol biThha leye baanh phaR ke
Ohde kan bhar di, meri sokan jei
MeN chupp ho jaNwaaN, dukh jar ke
..... Nit androN bahroN pei tiRkaan
..... Men loye loye dudh rirkaaN

Ajj naal maahi meN gal karsaaN
Je laRsi te meN vi laRsaaN
Kih jaan kaNdal meri peyee hoyi e
Sab haal siyaapa keh dharsaan
.....Hun sehniaaN niyyoN meN jhiRkaaN
.....Men loye loye didh riRkaaN

Javed Zaki

Name:	Javed Zaki - June 01 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Akhilsh Jee. The article is based on reporting provided in daily "Ajit" , Jalandhar, but date is not given.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 31 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Javed Zaki Jee, thanks for sharing that article. Unfortunately i cannot read Urdu or understand the spoken language. Is there an English version of it available by any chance?

Name:	omo - May 30 2004
E-mail:	liberi@mugu.com
Comments:	it is nice siteeeeeeeeee

Name:	Nimrit - May 30 2004
E-mail:	cdu_jatt@hotmail.com
Location:	Brampton, Canada
Comments:	hello everybody, just wondering if u guys can help with this last night i was watching a local program( des pardes) broadcasted in canada on saturday evenings. They showed clippings of a very nice performance bu candaian kids in punjabi two of the girls sang a very nice song, here how it goes MEIN LOYE LOYE DUDH(milk) RIRKAN this is the only line i remember, ia m wondering if any of you have ever heard this before if yes please let me know who is by or who wrote these lines thank you

Name:	Asma_Iqbal - May 30 2004
E-mail:	asma_iqbal_khi@hotmail.com
My URL:	http://s6.invisionfree.com/Apni_Mehfil/
Location:	Karachi, Sind Pakistan
Comments:	I like Punjabi language.

Name:

Javed Zaki - May 30 2004

E-mail:

Sajno. The following article titled "Azad Sikh Riyasat Khalistan di Yatra" by Syed Sibtul Hassan Zaigham has been published in Today's Daily 'Nawa-i-waqt', Lahore. The central issue raised in this article focuses on to 're-energize movement for 'Independent Sikh Homeland' through democratic means. It is in Shahmukhi script but I hope some 'Soojhwaans' from East panjab would like to critically analyze it. By the way, the daily Nawa-i-waqt is famous for its ultra-nationalist, anti-India stance and I doubt that it will genuinely favor any Independent Sikh (Panjbai)Homeland, but only to see India to be dismembered.

http://www.nawaiwaqtgroup.com/urdu/daily/may-2004/30/index.htm

Javed Zaki

Name:	Baljit Grewal - May 29 2004
E-mail:	balgre86@aut.ac.nz
My URL:	http://baljit.itgo.com
Location:	Auckland, AKL NZ
Comments:	Hi everybody, Adding some (not all) songs of Chamkila to APNA collection would not do any harm. I think it is high time, people acknowledged that some of his work is relevant to our debates about culture etc. rab rakha

Name:	Shahid - May 29 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Friends: Something interesting to read at the link shown below: http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/29/fea.htm#2

Name:	dullabhatti - May 28 2004
E-mail:	dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Also this bit on Ahmad Salim in the next news item -------------------------- If you have the slightest interest in literature, you would have heard the name Ahmad Salim. If not, it is worth knowing him. He is here in City Beautiful as part of the Pakistani delegation attending the World Punjabi Congress. Ahmad Salim is a living literary legend, not only in Pakistan but also in India. He is a man who refused to bow before the military establishment led by Gen Yahya Khan, the much feared dictator of Pakistan in the 70s. Though Ahmad Salim had to pay a heavy price, he did not bend. It was 1971. Pakistan was in political turmoil. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, famed as liberator of Bangladesh (then East Pakistan), had won majority in the elections as head of the Awami League. However, Gen Yahya Khan, who had succeeded another dictator Ayub Khan, denied him power in Islamabad. In the last week of March, Mujibur Rahman was arrested in a midnight swoop and put behind bars. That led to a massive upheaval, not only in East Pakistan but also in West Pakistan. A few days after Rahman�s arrest, Ahmad Salim, who is now settled in Islamabad and works in an NGO, wrote a moving poem: �Sada Jive Bangladesh�. It stunned the military establishment. A poet from West Pakistan had written a poem to support the creation of Bangladesh. His arrest warrant was issued immediately. He was arrested and put in jail for antinational activity. He was sentenced to six-months imprisonment and sent to Kot Lakhpat Jail in Lahore. Overnight, he became a hero in the literary world. He also became a household name in this part of India. While Ahamd Salim was in jail, revolutionary Indian poet Pash wrote a poem as a tribute to his progressive and democratic spirit, titled �Ahmad Salim de Na�. Amrita Pritam and Harbhajan Singh, both famed Punjabi writers, also raised their voice against the arrest. However, things changed in December 1971. He was freed in January 1972 after the creation of Bangladesh. Later, Ahmad Salim wrote for various Punjabi literary magazines, including Nagmani and Preetlari in India.

Name:

DullaBhatti - May 28 2004

E-mail:

was reading this news item and all of sudden I found some one from here in the news.:-)

A writer, Saeed Ahmad, is now also using Roman Punjabi. He is the only Pakistani using Roman Punjabi in his works. Here to attend the conference, he says the blame for rejection of Punjabi as a language must go to the electronic media, which primarily uses Urdu. �We have only two Punjabi newspapers in Pakistan. Also, we have very few Punjabi writers.� Ahmad, for his part, has written four books titled �Great Sufi Wisdom�. Each features writings of Sufi saints like Baba Farid, Shah Hussain, Mian Mohammad and Waris Shah in Urdu as well as Roman Punjabi.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040529/punjab1.htm#13

Name:	Bilal Muhammad Yousuf - May 28 2004
E-mail:	bilalyousufsa@hotmail.com
My URL:	http://www.netcomcafe.co.za
Location:	Johannesburg, GA South Africa
Comments:	Asalam I would just want to pay tribute to the creator and management team of this website!!!! wow what a site they have provided and also a very good plateform for all kinds of religion with no difference but with unity of punjabi language. its remarkable!!!!!! Allah Hafiz Sat Saria kar (i don`t whether its the right word or not please accept sorry in advance).

Name:	Akhilesh - May 28 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Pak allows Punjabi language in Assembly http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040528/main8.htm World Punjabi Conference begins today http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040528/punjab1.htm#9 Theatre great medium of social change in Pak http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040528/cth1.htm#6 Exempt Punjabi films from tax, says Harbhajan Mann http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040528/ldh1.htm#15

Name:	danish rasheed - May 28 2004
E-mail:	genius_danish@yahoo.com
Location:	Karachi, sindh Pakistan
Comments:	do u know who is allah we say hin god and sabaoth.and the concept of sufi saint that we can see allah and also feel him because he is present in your heart so why u cant feel him .

Name:	Bali K. Deol - May 27 2004
E-mail:	swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:	SSA Kahlon Ji, I actually replied to you twice. I did get the info. Very strange that they didn't come through to you. I simply replied back to the address that you sent me the original mail from.

Name:	P S Kahlon - May 27 2004
E-mail:	pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:	Bali Jee: You had asked for some information that I sent the same day and I did not hear from you although I sent another e-mail to ask you if you had gotten the info. My e-mail does not indicate that you actually got it. Please let me know if I need to send it again. Thanks

Name:

gursharan - May 27 2004

E-mail:

chakdephte@ethe.com

Bali K. Deol - May 26 2004

Hello All,

kya baat hai Chamkiley te bada tavaa lag reha hai. Gall te sahi hai as a punjabi singer oh ik eho jeha banda c jisne Punjabi Jabaan othe v chalaa ditti jithe loki punjabi baare jaande hi nahi(through the truckees all over India specially in south). bari hi karaari awaz da maalik c oh.

Bali ji, jehri bibi ne tohade show te call kitti c ohnu kehna c ke Takri de ik paase chamkiley de geet pa lavo te dooje paase aj kal de music video pa lavo jehre ke "maa boli di seva karan layi banandey han" te palada ehna videos da hi bhaara rehna hai sagon takri hi tutt jaani hai.

Kaursach yaara oh kestaan mainu bhej de ohna di cd main bana devaanga eh kamm te eho jeha ke "naale punn naale phaliyaan".

Dulla bhatti ji, tusi kundi pa ke Machiyaan bhari chalo, te pher saanu dasna asi ohde bare swaadi pakore bana ke saari duniya dee Jabaan(toungue) da swaad karaara kar devaange.

Ohde kujh geetaan diyaan title lines

Sohre di lal maruti ne sabh cha kka jaam karata
teri turdi doli ni vekh ke dhaah munde ne maari
Ik vaari kehde mainu maa ve putt jaandi vaari

and there was one more about Shaheedi of 5th guru Arjun

Aadios

Name:	Abul Fazal Mahmud - May 27 2004
E-mail:	afmahmud@yahoo.com
Location:	PARKTON, MD USA
Comments:	Kaurasachji, Jay tusaN such bolia ay (jaroor bolia hovega) taN eh bahuta e kaura such ay. Rutta taN meray koloN kaday skool wich wi naeeN si lagga tay hun ki lagnaN! Bhar jay tuhaday koloN eho kujh sarda ay tay pher haray da niaN. Chup kar kay bah janay aN. Pher bi, jay tuhadiaN chalan da koi bandobast bi na howay taN meray koloN paisay ugrah sakday o (Paund lay lo, Dollar lay lo ya Pakistani)

Name:	Bali K. Deol - May 27 2004
E-mail:	swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:	Hi, Isn't the Punjabi MC song mentioned by Mohd Saddique and Ranjit Kaur!

Name:	PunjabiG - May 27 2004
E-mail:	PunjabiG@yahoo.com
Comments:	I have heard several Chamkeela songs and yes some of them were sort of "Lachhar" but among his famous Dharmik geet, "Talwar main Kalgidhar di haan, and few others. Some of his big hits though were not Lachhar. PunjabiMC has revived some of his songs with remixing, they even play them on MTV,latest one being, "Na de dil pardesi nun..tainu nit da roona pai jaugaa.." Also, his song "Pehle lalkare naal..has always been played out in parties..But my all time fav.is "Ki jor Garibaan da..jadon pehli Laanv parri te phub nikal gayee meri..;-) Enjoy if you hear 'em!

Name:	dullabhatti - May 27 2004
E-mail:	dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Sajjid, yaar kunDi laun da apna maza ay....mere koll ikk eho jihi kunDi ay pai jee chaahe te kunDi laa ke baiThey rahvo...machhi hauli hauli phasdi jaandi ay...jee chaahve te kunDi nu taiz raftar ch paa dao te Safir paa'h de talaab di jehRi machhi jadoN marzi khich lao....hunn te sukh naal ainniyan machhiyan ho gayeaN ke mera iRiver(iPod da competitor) poora bhar sakda ay.:-) Shiv Kumar Batalvi Nigh celebrated in California On May 22nd Shiv Kumar Batalvi night was celebrated in California. Punjabi Singer Sukhdev Sahil sang about 10 of Shiv's poems in his beautiful composition. This time I have good access to the recording made for the evening and soon I will provide some these to be posted on APNA page. I know I promised the same one time before couple of years ago...but this time it is going to happen.

Name:	Ajay Sharma - May 26 2004
E-mail:	ajays79@hotmail.com
Location:	Rockhampton, Qld Australia
Comments:	Dear Friends One can pick up some thing from even most lachar. I found Chamkila also very interesting. He was entertaining masses. There were people - supposedly baddies - who wanted him and still praise him. And there were so some Gooddies - who killed him... sounds ironical to many. I call it interesting. Today I found one interesting thing. Music of a recent hindi movie - Where's the party yaar? (http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/XX01000M0H). The music is excessively and dominatingly Punjabi. Probably for the first time, dose of Punjabi music; style of singing; and language is so high in a hindi movie. However, The quality is just average but good thing is that it a very good showcase depicting a range from Trucki to Folk and then to Pop and Rap, all in Punjabi or Punglish. Film Shaheed Udham Singh (Raj Babbar wali) was another good showcase revealing different singing styles of Indian music, beautifully. Occationally, these experimentations inform about richness of our culture as well as talent and often made us proud of our inheritance. Khuda hafiz

Name:	Sajid Chaudhry - May 26 2004
E-mail:	patanahin@aaho.dom
My URL:	http://www.apnaorg.com
Location:	Sahiwal, PUNJAB Pakistan
Comments:	Dulla veer jee jay kunDi paey jaavay te menooN vi dassna kinj paai di ay... main kuch changay kam ker lavaaN ga ;) Best of Luck

Name:

E-mail:

swaraj@shaw.ca

Chamkila actually released 3 dharmik cassettes dosto. Including the powerful song about Partition 'SaatoN Baba Kholiya Tera Nankaana'. Actually I think his x-rated songs were far and few between, a very limited number. His songs were about rural life mostly, and contrary to what we would like to believe it isn't always pretty.

I fail to understand why he attained the title of being the lachar singer when people like Kartar Ramla got off scot-free, if you've heard their songs you'll know they leave nothing to the imagination. Then more recently Amrik Toofan, now thats x-rated, still doesn't get as much flack. Poor old Chamkila still takes the rap.

You know a while back after having given airplay to one of his songs, a lady called to ask me a question. The question being "There was a time when Chamkila was hidden from girls, and now our own Punjabi girls are giving these songs airtime. Do you feel that this is a sign of progression in our culture?'" It was quite obviuous that she was very disapproving, and I politely gave her my opinion. Just because Amar Singh Chamkila sang a few songs that were a little high on the lachar scale, that doesn't mean we should throw him away as a singer, and ban all his songs. He has some fantastic tracks, and indeed he was a very talented folk singer.

Name:	DullaBhatti - May 26 2004
E-mail:	dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:	dosto, yourstruly just bought a state of the art MP3 player with moderately professional recording capability. It has a built in microphone plus connections for, analog/optical inputs, output and many other great features...it is slightly bigger than iPod...but lot more features...I have it on my belt since 8 AM today...I transfered about 1500 songs Punjabi only last night...ajj saara din dowaN kannaN te khopay laye ne..lokiN mainu mast wekh ke kujh kamm kaar da sawaal vi nai puch rahe....bus samjho apna ghar da radio station bann giya...geet te geet vajj riya ay. koi 10/12 Chamkeelay de vi si... apnay Cheenay dost nu NFK di ikk qawaalii sunai ay kehnda main tere raDooaa chori kar laina.. ajj raat nu APNA te kunDi laawaN ge...changay kamm lai te chori vi maaRi gall nai.;-)

Name:	kaurasach - May 26 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	AF Mahmud ji, Eh taan bara maara hoya! Main taan geet rut laina haan. Tay jad man karay aap hi gaun lug paina waan. Waaj koi ehni besuri nahin mainu apnay aap nu changi lagdi ai. Meman tay goray wee tang nahin karday bai banda pata nahin ki uchi uchi kehnda ja riha ai, raah chad dainday nay. Batterian da we punga muka chadiya. Koi chor we choree nahin kar sakda mere dimag ch gum dian casettan nu. Tuseen we hun jehray gaanay sunon gay yaad kar laina. Puranee choree nu bhul jaao.

Name:	Abul Fazal Mahmud - May 26 2004
E-mail:	afmahmud@yahoo.com
Location:	PARKTON, MD USA
Comments:	kaurasachji -26 May Meray kol Lahaur wich baday kararay PaNjabi geetaN diaN kastaN da wadda bhaNdar see. Mainun haspatal jana pya murr kay aya tay bhaNdar wehla. Naukar nay dasiya pai pichhoN chor ayay see oh kastaN bi lay gae. ChaNgay shuqeen chor sun! TuseeN dasso koi upa ho sakda ay?

Name:	rajeev - May 26 2004
E-mail:	ki_pata@kithe.com
Comments:	Kaurasach jee, MusicIndiaOnLine seems to have a pretty big section on him.. check it out at http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/0309003H I listened to a couple of his "darriver" songs, very very funny! Yet to come across the "X-rated" ones! So far so good!!! rab raakha

Name:	kaurasach - May 26 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Rajeev ji My first cassette that I received from my cousin who is a landlord and a stint as a truck driver, was a Chamkila. He did not listen when his parents were around. So, we had to sneak into the neighbors house who threw out his female siblings and relatives so we could listed to the casette. I still remember the first song..."local swaaree ethon chukdee naeen bus. kariae ke sewa teri, bol kay tun das".... The 'munday' were after him for some of his songs. His rivals in the music industry were equally passionate about getting rid of him. They were envious of his comet like blazing to fame and stardom. He also wrote for other famous singers. And other singers also stole his songs and ideas. So some one killed him and his partner Amarjot (?). There were having an affair (?) Others say that some were also mad because a low caste was so successful and talented To palacate the 'munday' and clean his image, he brought out 'Dharmik" a cassette. Whatever is the truth, only God knows. One thing for sure, he was talented Punjabi folk singer.

Name:	Sajid Chaudhry - May 26 2004
E-mail:	patanahin@aaho.dom
My URL:	http://www.apnaorg.com
Location:	Sahiwal, PUNJAB Pakistan
Comments:	KiddaN baee sajjno.... Kee haal chaal ay saaryaaN da? thoRa jehya taim labhya si maiN sochya sajjna da jee parchaa daiye...;) lo fer sawaad lavo Lailan da chooRa le de vay

Name:

rajeev - May 26 2004

E-mail:

kaurasach veer jee

Chamkila nae dharmik geet vee gaaye hun?? mainoo tae jaraa vee pataa nahin see aes baare.. Kadee geet nahin sunne par naa bahut sunyaa jae Chamkilae daa..

chamkilae dae jiwan baare ik site hai, www.chamkila.com.. pretty interesting, he wanted to be an electrician :-) :-)

I will try to listen up on his songs, any particular hits?
rab raakha

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 26 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Isb, Pakistan
Comments:	My post was addressed to Kaurasach Ji and not Akhilesh Ji. I beg pardon for that.

Name:	kaurasach - May 26 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Sardarz Mere kol bora bharia hoya chamkeelay dian tay hor pooranay lok geetan dian cassetan da. par mera waaja kisay nay sit ta. hun oh CD player witch wajdeean naeen. main bara labdan kiton mainoon casette wajon da waaja mil jaaye par koi hatti ni takri jithay eh aj kal wikda hovay. jehray gaanay mere kol nay ohnan wich 'angaan' (body parts) di koi gal nahin. Haan wich kaee geet nay jithay jija/saali day jaan jeth/bhabi day najaij sambandh da wikhan eh. Usnay kaee changay geet we gaye nay tay Dhaarmik geet we.

Name:	Rashid Chaudhyr - May 26 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Islamabad, Pakistan
Comments:	Akhilesh Ji Your nice Punjabi diction took me back to my village elders who used to use such 'miThi jaban (not zuban)in their conversations. here is an akhan I learnt in the sitting of those 'waDkas' uttam kheti, maddham vapar tay nakhid naukri

Name:

Sardarz - May 26 2004

E-mail:

dgdvgav@visto.com

Vasant Ji,
Seems like you stumbled on to the wrong site.Here you will find lovers and promoters of PUNJABI language not Hindi or other regional Indian languages.
Though I respect all languages,but I only devote my leisure time for reading,enjoying and commenting on topics relating to Punjabi langauage,people & region not Hindi,Urdu etc...and you will find this sentiment from most forum contributors here.

Kaurasach ji,
I agree with you Chamkeela sang in folksey musical style, but his Lyrics,leave a lot of room for decency especially when he sings about male/female anatomy ....
I have listened to a few of his works but I do not own any for the simple reason of being unable to listen to him in family settings.At the same time I may not be aware of some of his works that have decent lyrics. If there is one,Pls. do reccomend it to

Regards

Name:	vasant - May 26 2004
E-mail:	vasant_1@epatra.com
Location:	columbia, USA
Comments:	In India hindi literature is widely read and discuused all around the country. It is very rich and comparable with any other world language literature.right from Kashmir to Kanyakumari many a literature loving persons have the good amount of involvement besides their regional and cultural differences. Recently two poetry collections of a Hindi poet from Maharashtra attracted my attention on the subject. Mr. Shailendra Chauhan is writing a very ipressive poems, communicable and understandable to an average reader too. His two collections reflect Indian culture, philosophy and life style in the content. The poet is aware of the groundvrealities and politics of the day but he nver reacts on id directly but makes a poetic dialogue.This is the speciality of the poet. Names of collections are ; 1) Aur Kitne Prakash varsh ?( Howmany light years ?) and 2) Eashwar kee Chaukhat par ( At the threshold of God). Very beautiful poems are contained in and are worth readable.

Name:	kaurasach - May 25 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Main ik salah dawan music posting baaray. Baee music selection witch CHAMKEELA day Gaanay naheen hai gay. Eh gavaia thoray jehe loochay gaane jaroor gaanda si. Par gaanda si thaith Punjabi ch. Si oh such. Music wee Punjabi si. Jo pindan ch tay paindo mahol ch hoonda si us baaray hi gaunda si. Draveran baaray jaan hor khoolay subah day lokan di gaanay ch moorat wah dinda si. Munh khir jaanda si jo gaana sunda si. Is banday nay Punjabi lok geet di reet nu baree contribution diti hai. Tay isday geetan is than tay haq rakhday han.

Name:	kaurasach - May 25 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Kithay Saun Gaye Eh site da kujh pataa nahin lagdaa. Qadi taan bara raula painda tay kadee masoon masoon ho jaandi eh. Qiyon kay eh site Punjabi literatur baaray tay boli baaray hai. Es laee ethay koi Tapay post karo jaan koi puraanian khaavtan jaan koi kahaanian, geet, totkay, dohray ... Jadon wee Punjabi di gal hundi ah political jayee Bahas jaan nukta chhir jaanda eh. Usda suad mitha nahee es laee mithian galaan wee post karo jiday naal haasa we niklay tay tabeet wee khir jaye.

Name:

Sardarz - May 25 2004

E-mail:

byghyighyg@visto.com

Saeed Ji,
Thanks for posting "Lost vendors of Lahore".It brought back memories of the childhood.
It is amazing,all the vendors mentioned in the article were present in my childhood on this side of the border too.
It really brought back the memories of "Laloo Golae-aN Vala", who used to serve us the Barfeelae Golae in summer time and was the repository of punjabi "Akhaans". While he worked on making a perfectly spherical Gola,he would keep us entertained with his akhaans which he would link to a kids name for whom he was making a gola, making us go into hysterical laughters. :-)

I think Dr Tehseen Aman left out the vendor who used to sell "Malai vaali" and "Matkae Vaali" kulfi in summer's.This vendor had a recipe where he would put the kulfi, Kateera Goond and Falooda to make the best desert....you do not find it even in Punjab nowadays.
I guess it is a bygone,nostalgic era..

Regards.

Name:	Sardarz - May 25 2004
E-mail:	byghyighyg@visto.com
Comments:	Saeed Ji, Thanks for posting

Name:

DullaBhatti - May 24 2004

E-mail:

dullabhatti47_@yahoo.com

Saeed ji, I had the opportunity to see glimpses of another wonder of Lahore - Ajoka Theater. Shahid Nadeem was present at a reading of English version of play Bullah. Although all the dialgos except few words here and there was in English,all the songs and qawallis were in Punjabi. The Audience was mostly Non-Punjabi Indian and Punjabi Pakistani with exception of me and couple of others. Play script is wonderful. I know during its performance in India, some sikhs objected on certains portrayal of Banda Bahadur. I did not find any thing objectionable myself..may be it was due to translation. On the other hand I was surprised that it was allowed to be staged in Pakistan without any trouble as there was lot of beating that mullah clergy got in this play.

What impressed me most was the little documentary that Shahid Nadeem showed to the audience about Ajoka theater, its history, coperation with the Indian counterparts, and Zanaani festival of plays that was held past March. Most of their plays are in Punjabi and deal with real issues of the rural masses. That is quiet a change from the usual double innuendos of punjabi stage shows from Lahore. Another thing Shahid Nadeem mentioned was that it was the first time in the history that during Zanaani festival women danced on the stage of this "sarkari" theater.

I am really glad Suman ji mentioned this and I had the opporunity to go and attend it.

Name:	Saeed - May 24 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Comments:	One sad news: a few days back the mother of Najam Hussain Syed died in Lahore. God bless her soul. Saeed

Name:

Saeed - May 24 2004

E-mail:

saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com

Dear APNA Mitro, One article on Lahore published in Dawn, 23.5.4.

Lost vendors of Lahore

By Dr Tehseen Aman

Lahore has grown from sober to intellectual to zinda-dillan. But for one old lady, it is nostalgic to reminiscence of the days gone by. At the time of Partition, Lahore had little to boast about except the Mughal architecture such as Shalimar Gardens, Badshahi Mosque and the Fort. The Zoo and the museum were an added glamour for the Lahorites. The old and young went to these places when they wanted an outing, otherwise they mopped round their mohalla, had charpoy talks and ate thanday golay served by vendors on hot summer days. The ice golay wala was announced by a ringing of the copper bell and little boys and girls would gather round him, to buy ice gollay with fruity flavours or just ogle at him while he rang his bell and called out in a melodious voice "gollay danday wala aya jay." The most spectacular vision was when he shaved a block of ice by moving it back and forth over a large razor and shaping the shavings by hand into a ball, while piercing a small round stick into it. Then he would squirt coloured sweet syrups from bottles onto the ice balls. Such street vendors brightened the otherwise dull afternoons. These were days when Pakistan was in its infancy, innocent but alive, throbbing and pulsating with future hope. These vendors were an integral part of Lahore's simple everyday life. Then there was the 'toffee candy' man, who never lagged behind. He carried his gatta on a long bamboo and could create magic on a small stick. He would weave magic with his fingers and soon the soft candy would be twisted, prodded and turned into a horse, peacock or even a soldier complete with his cap and bayonet. The children named the image and got it. The candy would not melt or finish off quickly as did the gola. You could suck on it for a full day, keep it under your pillow for the night and again suck it in the morning. The sweet taste of both the gola and the toffee candy lasted for a long time, and both the vendors did a roaring business roaming the streets of Lahore. Winters, on the other hand, were marked with corn cobs and long stems of ganah of sugarcane. There were no machines to prepare popcorn or to extract juice from the sugarcane. For popcorn, there was the danay bhoonnay wali mai. After the harvesting of the corn crop, she would set up a special bhatti for the roasting of corn. A simple wood fire beneath a metal wok, a metal garwi and a sieve were her main tools. The wok was half-filled with fine grey sand from the riverbed. The corn was added to the sand and fresh fire was conjured up by dry wood. The delicious aroma tempted both the young and the old to savour the palatable roasted corns, rubbing them between their hand, blowing the chaff off and popping a handful into the mouth. Sometimes, the mai would also cook wheat grains with gur in a similar fashion, thus bringing sweet temptation on a dull, cloudy and chilly afternoon. Traversing the streets of Lahore was another vendor, the lachaywala. His voice would mesmerize little ones. When his musical voice rang loud lal mai da chata khao, children would run out to see who this lal mai was and how they could eat her chata (hair). No matter if the children saw the chata every day, they would always be intrigued by his voice. Though this vendor is still found standing in the big bazaars of Lahore, now it has become candy floss and it is wrapped in polythene bags and only very small children, when they look at it, are enticed by the colourful floss. These were the vendors who sold eatables, but there were others, too, like maashki and the qalaiwala. The maashki was the man with a goat-skin bag. He would carry and deliver water from far-away wells to houses in the walled city and even outside because there was a lack of taps or water tanks on rooftops. The maashki would come to the door and call out loudly. The women would go in purdah, while he would be allowed into the house and fill big copper matkas or earthenware ones. He would come twice a day, in the early morning and in the evenings, just round Magribprayers. The maashki was given flour as payment. Then there was the annual visit from the qalaiwala. He knew exactly which houses needed qalaipolishing for utensils. He would gather the copper pots of the house round him, set up his coal fire by digging a small pit in the ground and stocking it to the required temperature with a pair of ancient leather fans. Then he would put the stained and pitted metal utensils on the fire, heat it, put a little bit of tin on the surface of the utensil and quickly rub it with Ammonium Bicarbonate, with wool all round and inside the utensils. Behold, a glistening new white utensil lay before you! There was another vendor who charmed mostly girls and women alike, the chooriwala, with colourful glass bangles. No plastic or metal was used in those days. He had a big stand with six to seven rods on both sides. Specially before Eid he would roam the streets, calling in a melodious voice. Women would peep through their doors, call out to him and then start choosing various colours. Thus, Eid would be made more colourful at the very doorstep. How can the cloth vendor be forgotten? The main attraction was his gabardine, which the women bought for winter and his latha and sheent for summer. Only for a special occasion could pure silk be bought. Synthetic cloth was not in vogue. He was most awaited round special occasions such as Ramazan, Eid, weddings and even deaths. These vanished visions of Lahore will never return as we move into the 21st century.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 24 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	2nd language status for Punjabi sought Prabhjot Singh Tribune News Service http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040524/himachal.htm#1 Paonta Sahib, May 23 The Punjabi community of Himachal Pradesh in general and Sikhs in particular have reiterated their demand for the introduction of Punjabi as a second language in all schools of the state. At a congregation held in the historic Gurdwara Paonta Sahib yesterday to mark the Shaheedi Jor Mela of Baba Banda Bahadur, a resolution was adopted to urge the Chief Minister, Mr Virbhadra Singh, to ensure that teaching of Punjabi was introduced in all schools of the state. The previous BJP government had in 1999 as a part of the tercentenary celebrations of the birth of the Khalsa taken a Cabinet decision to introduce Punjabi in various schools. But in the absence of an adequate number of trained teachers, Punjabi classes introduced in some schools were later withdrawn, much to the annoyance of the community. The Himachal School Education Board also introduced Punjabi as an elective subject for students of IX and X class. To protest against the apathy of the state government towards the Punjabi language, some parents even went to the Shimla High Court to challenge the discontinuation of Punjabi classes in certain schools. Jathedar Kartar Singh Takkar, general secretary of the Parbandhak Committee of Gurdwara Paonta Sahib, who moved the resolution, said the demand would now be taken up with the Chief Minister. �We will pursue it vigorously so that the Punjabi classes are introduced during the current academic session,� he added. By another resolution, the congregation demanded that a national memorial be raised at the historic Lohgarh Fort, which Banda Bahadur had used as his makeshift capital before launching the India�s first freedom struggle against the Muslims. Though the previous BJP government in the state and the NDA government at the Centre had promised to raise the national memorial by promising the foundation stone laying ceremony by Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee, nothing happened. The new Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, who had campaigned in favour of the Congress candidate in Paonta Sahib last year during Assembly elections, had promised that once the Congress came to power, this demand of the Sikhs of Himachal would be met. Hailing the elevation of Dr Manmohan Singh as the first Sikh Prime Minister of the country, the congregation also congratulated the Congress President, Mrs Sonia Gandhi, for giving the minorities their long-deserved due in making the most qualified representative of the microscopic minority Prime Minister of the country. Jathedar Kartar Singh Takkar said the Shiromani Akali Dal chief, Mr Parkash Singh Badal, should focus more on Punjab and leave the Sikhs elsewhere to fend for themselves. Among those who addressed the special congregation yesterday were Mr Sukhdev Singh Bhaur of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, Mr Satnam Singh of Dal Khalsa and Mr Bhagwan Singh Johl. �Gypsies of Lahore�: no more an eerie life http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_24-5-2004_pg7_19

Name:

Javed Zaki - May 24 2004

E-mail:

Sajno! A worth reading article on the history and poetics of Siraiki.

Rammah ji, I would strongly recommend this article to be posted on APNA's list.

"Siraiki Language and its Poetics: An Introduction."
By Prof. Hassan N. Gardezi

http://www.punjabilok.com/misc/literature/siraiki_language_and_%20Poetics.htm

Name:	Javed Zaki - May 23 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Location:	East Lansing, Mi USA
Comments:	Sajno! Ik navaaN 'Geet' haazar e, chus lo. ........GEET......... Dil diyaaN gallaN, dil vich rayyaaN Na tuN sunyaaN, na tuN kayyaaN SajnaaN, tuN khabraN na layyaaN Yaad de jugnooN Udd de phhir de BeThhe Mal ke rahwaaN chir de GhaRyaaN soolaan thayyaaN SajnaaN, TuN khabraan na layyaaN KidhroN teri saar na aawe Rutt birhoN pei mann taRpaawe Sukh ghaRyaaN kith gayyaaN Sajnaan, Tun khabraaN na layyaaN Athroo moti palkeeN damkan Daagh jagar jiveeN taare chamkan AkhiyaaN roNdiaan payyaaN SajnaaN, Tun khabraan Na layyaan Javed Zaki

Name:	saeed - May 23 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Paa Safir jee, koee keeRey maar dawaa labho Paa jee. teejee waaree WPC daa dawat-namaa post kar rehyaa je. Inj dee information sirf jaankaaree laee ey. Dear APNA friends, Here is the text of the invitation letter of World Punjabi Congress. I am just writing for your kind information please. World Punjabi Congress Indian Chapter SCO 1126-27, Top Floor, Sector 22-B, Changigarh. E-mail: wpc_indiachapter@yahoo.com tough Coordinators: Avtar Singh Paul Dr. Deepak Manmohan Singh Dear ----------- You will be glad to know that World Punjabi Congress (Indian Chapter) is organizing the tenth Conference of the World Punjabi Congress in Chandigarh on 28-30 May 2004. In its past conferences, the Congress has focused on the cultural traditions of Punjab (East and West), Punjabi and Punjabiyat in the firm belief that these must form the bedrock of Indo-Pak friendship. This conference aims to broaden its thematic scope by bringing together not only artists, writers and media but also academicians, businessmen, entrepreneurs, scientists and social activists from the East and West Punjab to systematically explore avenues of friendship, cooperation and affinity between the peoples of India and Pakistan. Keeping in view your expertise in the various aspects of Punjab Studies, particularly in the fields of culture, economy, history, politics and literature, as well as keen interest in Indo-pak friendship, the organizers of the Conference extend the most cordial invitation to you to actively participate in its different sessions. The Congress will be happy to extend hospitality to the delegates during the conference. On the 26th of May, Guru Nanak Dev University will organize a cultural program and host dinner. Next day, on the way to Chandigarh, Lyallpur Khalsa College, Jalandhar, will host a working lunch. Punjabi Akademi, New Delhi, will organize an open interaction with Punjabi intellectuals in Delhi. The venue of the conference is the University Auditorium, Punjab University, Chandigarh. Kindly confirm your participation along with a brief personal resume, photograph and email address by 20th of May positively. The Programme Schedule will follow when we hear from you. Looking forward to your visit: 1. Prof. S. K. Sharma, DUI, Panjab University, Chandigarh 2. Prof. Paramjit Singh, Regitrar, Panjab University, Chandigarh 3. Prof. S. S. Noor, Delhi University, Delhi 4. Dr. Rawel Singh, Punjabi Academy, New Delhi 5. Brig. M. S. Sohal (Retd), Panchkula 6. Prof. Bhupinder Brar, Punjab University, Chandigarh 7. Prof. Satya P. Gautam, Punjab University, Chandigarh 8. Prof. R. S. Bajwa, Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar 9. Dr. Ronki Ram, Punjab University, Chandigarh 10. Principal Dr. Satinder Dhillow, Dean, Faculty of Education, PU 11. Prof. Devinder Singh, Dean, Faculty of Languages, PU 12. Prof. Balwinder Kaur Brar, Punjabi University, Patiala 13. Rajinder Singh Cheema, Senior Advocate, Chandigarh 14. Rtn. H. P. S. Virk, Chairman (Dist. 3070) Dasuya

Name:	Safir Rammah - May 22 2004
E-mail:	rammah@apnaorg.com
Location:	Fairfax, VA USA
Comments:	Friends: Over the last couple of days, our Forum has been mysteriously deleted twice. I am starting it again withn the previous back-up of May 13. I will continue to try to find out if it is programing bug or something more sinister. Safir Rammah

Name:	Sardarz - May 19 2004
E-mail:	vcvcvtyhcv@visto.com
Comments:	Saeed Ji, Fir taaN tuhadae Dadkae te sadae Nankae lagae lagae e nae(my nanka pind is a village,couple of miles from Fatehgarh Churaian). Par asiN vi apna asal Dadka pind Pakistan vich shad ayae aN. A village near Narowal Mandi,distt Sheikhupura,my father and two uncles were born there. My grandparents(not with us anymore) brought us up on the stories of that land rich in "Basmati" cultivation. I have always wondered about the names of my great grand parents and their parents and so on going back in family history...the names were like Doola Singh..Mehtaab Singh..and compare them to the names of my uncles and their children etc..like Charanjit Singh...Ravider Singh...Kuljeet Singh etc. It seems the partition did not only physically divide punjabis, there seems to have been a cultural divide creeping in too. Regards.

Name:	Saeed - May 19 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear APNA Mitro, Daily Dawn, Karachi is regularly publishing letters on the Punjabi- Urdu controversy. Today�s Dawn printed the letter of Mr. Tahseen Ullah of Bahawalnagar. Punjab's mother tongue This is with reference to Mushir Anwar's column, 'Urdu as Punjab's Mother Tongue' (Dawn, May 7) and Safir Rammah's letter (Dawn, May 13). According to the claims of Fateh Muhammad Malik, chairman of the National Language Authority as referred to in Mushir Anwar's article, adoption of Punjabi "could only be a folly or conspiracy against the Muslims ... once Punjabi had been introduced as a medium of instruction, it would be heavily Sanskritized.... and then its Quranic script will be changed to Gurmukhi." No demand for the Gurmukhi script has ever been made by any Punjabi writer or organization. If the script of Bengali has not changed the identity of the Bengalis and Prof Fateh Muhammad Malik in an article in a Urdu daily (May 13) can call Bangladesh another Pakistan, how could the adoption of Punjabi as a medium of instruction in the Persian script change the Muslim identity of West Punjabis? It is not the fault of Fateh Muhammad Malik; he is just following the legacy of the protagonists of Urdu like the late Dr Syed Abdullah, Principal of the Oriental College, Lahore, who had accused Punjabi language activists of being anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam (The Pakistan Times March 15, 1962). It may be recalled that the adoption of Punjabi as a medium of instruction was demanded in 1956 at the conference held in Lyallpur (Faisalabad) under the presidentship of the late journalist and writer Maulana Abdul Majeed Salik. The clear message was that the mother tongue of Punjab is Punjabi and not Urdu. Akhilesh Jee, Thanks for posting the article THE HISTORY MAN: The Batala phenomenon �Ihsan Aslam (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-5-2004_pg3_5). I have gone through this report and liked it very much as my grandparents (Dadaa Jee) were also originally from a town Fateh GaRh ChooRiyaa, Tehsil Batala, Distt. Gurdaspore. Fateh GaRh ChooRiyaaN is birth place of my father. My grandmother died in 1986 and she was always talking about Fateh GaRh ChooRiyaaN by sitting on Masallaa (prayer rug) and I saw many times that tears were floating in her eyes. It is always very sad and bitter to mention about this extremely deep-rooted tragedy.

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 19 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Islamabad, Pakistan
Comments:	Kaurasuch Ji More about Gah. It was in district Jehlum in 1947 so most probably it is in district Chakwal now as Chakwal was the Tehsil of Jehlum in those days Here is link http://voi.org/books/mla/atro1.html

Name:

rajeev - May 19 2004

E-mail:

Shahid veer jee,

My apologies. I saw your post after I had posted mine already. So, this is my last post on this issue.

Rab Raakha

Name:

rajeev - May 19 2004

E-mail:

Akhilesh jee,

I appreciate your point about not "showing off" 'secularism'. But the question still remains.. there are many supposedly secular countries like France, Great Britain, United States, Russia, China etc.. How many can "show off" like India has done by electing their heads of states in this way. My only point being that credit has to be given where it is due. It might not be the culmination of everything great and utopian in India but we can atleast praise it to be a good start.

And veer jee, the frenzy of Sonia's opposition is equal to the frenzy of her support! This is precisely what a functioning democracy is all about.

Where I live, we have a lot of computer programmers from India, mostly from Andhra, Tamil Nadu etc. Many of them were congratulating each other (and especially me!) on having such an able person to be finally chosen as the Prime Minister of India. It was very heart warming to see. For many South Indians a Punjabi is either a Sikh or a clean shaven Sikh and the way they respect you is a treat to watch if you travel to many of these states. But I digress!

Chief Minister of Delhi is Shiela Dixit. Good to know that she is from Lahore too.

Regards

Name:	Akhilesh - May 19 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Shahid Ji, my apologies. My last words on any of those off topic subjects.

Name:	Shahid - May 19 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	.... and I, as many others, still think that this APNA Forum is for Panjabi and Panjabiat; and not for politics and religion.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 19 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Sardarz Ji, agree that they are 'cry babies'. When things go wrong for politicians in India they get desperate and end up playing the 'communal card'. Had these guys not thrown this 'foreign origin' issue around and whipped up the emotions of "Hindu nationalists" im sure there would not have been this frenzy of burning posters, flags, dummies of Sonia Gandhi etc in some places and people threatening to immolate themselves... Since India is paraded as being 'secular' and 'Worlds largest democracy' then there should be no issue at all. Especially since Sonia Gandhi is an Indian citizen. Im sure she would make a much better leader than some pin-head like Advani who cant even complete a sentence without getting out of breath in his dear old age. kaurasach Ji, those are terrible stories. Both my Grandparents have passed away but they had migrated from West Punjab after the partition. My Grandmothers entire family were from Gujranwala and Grandparents had belonged to Lahore before moving east. I think in my Grandfathers case he did not have a terrible experience himself but had Muslim friends in his neighbourhood who he signed his property away to. I dont think it would 'go down' well if i ask family members of mine who are still alive about their experiences. Its something people seem to be able to talk about with outsiders rather than family (In my case anyway). I have a pind which has fallen into Amritsar distt called 'Fatehabad' (Near Tarn Taran). Very strong Persian/Islamic influence on the village. It has town gates and a Mosque built under Sher Shah Suri (What i was told when i i visited), but no Muslims remain. The Mosque is in a bad state which is a shame. Apparently the Bihari migrants in the village had been using the courtyard as some sort of school but it seems unlikely the Mosque will be renovated or reopened. Rajeev Ji, I am not a fan of people who call India as 'Hindustan' because this is not true. India is India and Hindustan is Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Uttaranchal, Jharkand... The two should not be confused as not all Indians are Hindustanis, Hindi speaking or Hindus. You said - "If we can have a Muslim President and Sikh Prime minister, even that is to be used against us as an invective." I understand what you are saying but the criticizm arises when this issue of having a Muslim as President etc is brought up as a way to "show off" how democratic India is. Well, India is claimed to be 'secular'. Hindus may be the majority religious community but India is not a Hindu country (Unlike what 'Sangh Parivar' fascists try to project). Therefore, having a non-Hindu as President or Prime Minister should not be used as a way to project India as being a democracy head and shoulders above the rest when they claim to be 'secular' anyway. By the way, i recall reading somewhere that the Chief Minister of Delhi (Who is a Punjabi) was born in Lahore.

Name:	kaurasach - May 19 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Rahid, I found Gah in W Punjab. It is located approximately west of Chakwal. The longitude and latitude are 33N and 72E. The map did not have names of towns on it so I had to make an educated guess. I did not find it in Amrtsr dstrct. so Rediff is probably right.

Name:	kaurasach - May 19 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Rashid I found the Gah in W Punjab. It is right in the middle of Pothohar area. The map doesn't have the name of the towns but here is longitude and lattitude. 33N 72E I am guessing (pretty accurate) close to Chakwal, west of there by a few kms. I did not see a Gah in Amritsar. so I m guessing Rediff info is accurate.

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 19 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Islamabad, Pakistan
Comments:	Kaurasuch Ji I have also gone through such reports suggesting Amritsar as Manmohan's birth place. But what appeared in rediff.com is as under "He was born in Gah, West Punjab, on September 26, 1932 to Mr Gurmukh Singh and Mrs Gursharan Kaur. If he comes back as the finance minister, Singh faces a very different economy from what he inherited about 10 years ago. Far from being close to defaulting on its international debts, this time the economy is sizzling, having posted 10.4 per cent GDP growth last quarter. There is also a national consensus on the need for economic reforms, liberalisation and corporate-friendly policies. While Singh has never elucidated on his vision of how to take India ahead, there cannot be any doubts that the economy will be safe in his hands. Dr Manmohan Singh is the 'father of the reform process' in India and his return to North Block and the chair of the finance minister will only bring the original visionary back to the throne". http://inwww.rediff.com/money/2004/may/14spec.htm Here's quote from another Indian agency "Born to Gurmukh Singh and Amrit Kaur on Sep 26, 1932, at Gah in West Punjab, now a part of Pakistan, Manmohan Singh studied economics at the University of Punjab, Oxford and Cambridge. Armed with a doctorate in economics, he began his career as a lecturer at the University of Punjab in 1957 and shifted to the Delhi School of Economics (D-School) in 1969". I could not come up with any conclusion on such contradicting disclosures. There might be Gah village in Amritsar district, which might fall to Pakistan premises during partition.

Name:	kaurasach - May 19 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	here is the quote from sify news "Born in Amritsar in Punjab in September 1932, Singh could be the first Sikh prime minister of the world's largest democracy. He hails from a poor farming background and has said the first time he ever wore a tie was for his first job interview. Singh studied at Oxford and once served as central bank governor, and is seen as the man who wrenched India out of the worst financial crisis in its modern history. In 1991 hard currency reserves had sunk so low they covered less than a month of imports and India was on the brink of defaulting on its foreign loans."

Name:

rajeev - May 19 2004

E-mail:

Akhilesh veer,

You wrote, "World largest democracy? I think not..."
I know that you are not a big fan of "Hindustan" as you call it. But why this India bashing at the slightest excuse. With all its imperfections and lapses we have a functioning democracy don't we?

In this "great" United States of America, when do you think a black president will be a reality or a woman even contest the elections(other than Hillary Clinton). Do you seriously think that a you will have a Muslim prime minister in "Great" Britain pretty soon? With all its quirks and idiosyncracies, Indian people have given a mandate and it has been accepted by all. If many people don't want her there are many who want her and this is DEMOCRACY!

If we can have a Muslim President and Sikh Prime minister, even that is to be used against us as an invective. Think about it Akhilesh, there are not many countries whose people have emphatically mandated something like this.

By the way sajjano, it is intersting that many of well known politicians were born in (now) Pakistan eg. Lal Krishan Advani (Karachi), Dr. Manmohan Singh (Gah?), Inder Kumar Gujral (Jhelum)

Name:	kaurasach - May 19 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Rashid In another news, it states that he was born in Amritsar district.

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 19 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Isb, Pak
Comments:	Regarding the expected Indian PM Manmohan Singh a press report appeared in Indian media Wednesday revealed that he was born in 'Gah' in West Punjab (Now in Pakistan) in 1932. I, at least did'nt heard the name of such place in Pak Punjab. Have anyone detailed information in this connection especially the whereabouts of Gah?

Name:	kaurasach - May 19 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	muhammad zaahir You should better speed up these interviews with the older generation who were witness to the horrors. Either they are passing away or losing their memory. I talked to a few who were in their thirties or forties in 1947. None of them had directly participated in the mayhem. The ones who did, I did not get an opportunity to talk to. The comments that they make are general. Like, There used to be muslmans around here. Or they were killed in heaps or they 'left' for Pak. Though most were forced to leave, there were some who saw Pak as an utopia for muslims and did leave voluntarily. The horrors were for real. One person told me that he was a kid of 9 or 10 at the time of partition and witnessed a mutilation of a woman who left for Pak alone (she lost her family) but not before praying at a graveyard for revenge. The two men who committed the sin died pretty gruesome deaths - poisoned by own children. The muslim buildings are turning to rubble as 'progress' is replacing them like sikh/hindu bldngs in Pak. Muslim mobs also rampaged in E Pb. While walking towards Pak they usually rampaged on isolated villages or neighborhoods. Some thought they would be able to get E Pnjb too. Doaba (Jullundhar, Kapurthala, Hoshiarpur had significant muslim pop.) My grandfather tried to join a band of defenders to confront this rampaging but his friend wrestled him from his horse and tied him. He was lucky because the small band was overwhelmed and killed. Other stories I heard from grandmother was that some muslims thought that Delhi would go to Pak and in some neighborhoods including my grandmas' they were threatened by muslims who told them they will be slaughtered. So my grandma had packed her bags to flee. But it was the muslims who ultimately fled. People looted red chilis that the muslim had stored to throw in the eyes of the mobs. My grandma said that the chilis lasted them well over 2 years! The buffalo they took was returned after 2 days only because the govt had told of dire consequences and my timid grandparents obliged. Then there were cases of abductions, some women resigned to the fate that befell them, others remained defiant to the end. My grandparents' servant "married" a muslim girl. Some women were more traumatized by the prospect of going to an alien land and rather stay back It was a time of madness, people who were afraid of their own shadows participated in the mayhem. Another thing is that while there was a lot of compassion for the 'refugees', there were also many instances of people taking advantage of the helplessness of others. Khol Do by Hasan Manto aptly describes this. A couple of book have already been written about this.

Name:

Sardarz - May 19 2004

E-mail:

njnoijoijijoi@visto.com

Javed Zaki Ji,
You are right on the point, I agree with your line of thinking,wish more punjabis think like this.You are right, we are not trying to form a Ku Klux Klan here on this site,but on the contrary,we try to build a common understanding of our language and punjabiat across the lines of region and religion.

Akhlesh Ji,
The biggest bigotry of the non-Congress parties raising Sonia Ghandi's foriegn origin issue is that they were in power last five years and claimed majority in the parliament(with support of their allies)so, essentially they were in a position to pass a bill banning a foriegn born individual to get posts of PM or President,but they did'nt.
My question is if the INDIAN LAW allows a foriegn born individual to get the post of PM,why are these people protesting.If it is a question of ideology they should have changed the law when they were in power for last 5 years.
By the way IK GUJRAL was born in Jehlum Punjab(Now in pakistan)no one raised foriegn origin issue then.So, it is like 'We will raise it as a issue when it suits us".
Till now I had been supportive of economically progressive policies of NDA,but after they have raised Sonia's foriegn origin issue,it seems too obvious that they are not only hypocrates but are cry babies too.

Suman Ji,
You covered the West Coast and the East Coast, how about us the ones stuck on the third coast(Houston):-).

Regards

Name:	RaiFarid Bhatti - May 19 2004
E-mail:	raifarid@hotmail.com
My URL:	http://www.nankanasahib.com
Location:	Nankana Sahib, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear readers, it is a great honour for me to witness Dr.Manmohan Singh being elected as Indias first Sikh Prime Minister.Indian politics has matured enough and it is time other countries follow Indias example.If Benazir Bhutto had done what Sonia Gandhi ji has done she wouldnt be sitting in Dubai.I pray for Dr.sahibs success as the leader of the House. regards RAI FARID NANKANA SAHIB.PAKISTAN

Name:	Akhilesh - May 19 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear Prem Ji and others, I did not say that Aroas are a lesser people than anyone but when discussion on 'caste' occurs, you cannot avoid talking about the hierarchy system which is a fundamental feature of 'caste'. All i meant by saying a 'sub-division' is that Aroras are a branch of Khatri caste, but considered to be lower down the ladder. I am not supporting this view but thats how it once was. Nowadays im sure it is not looked upon like this. I was going to mention Sindhi Sikhs, but then as kaurasach Ji pointed out, many of them are not 'Sikhs' as such but are 'Nanak Panthis'. They are followers of Guru Nanak but i dont think of the other Sikh Guru's. By the way, i believe some Sindhi's in India write their language in Gurmukhi script. Regarding Sonia Gandhi not being an "Indian" in my opinion is a poor reflection on the people of that country. "Indian" is a nationality. I was born here in UK, i am not "English" but i am a British citizen, therefore my nationality is 'British'. Nationalities can change. Im sure Sonia Gandhi is an Indian passport holder, therefore she is an Indian national. A few years back a person of Indian origin won the elections (I think in Fiji). Sure, there was a coup that followed, but look at how all the Indians were so thrilled about the election results. Yet, what a despicable display of double standards they show when it comes to someone of "foreign blood" being nominated for Prime Minister in their own country. People should be happy this "foreigner" even gives a damn enough to want to do something for them. World largest democracy? I think not... Lastly, there have been a number of good responses to the 'Urdu as Punjab's language' appearing in DAWN letter section. I take this as a positive sign of changing attitudes. The Batala phenomenon �Ihsan Aslam http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-5-2004_pg3_5

Name:

Javed Zaki - May 19 2004

E-mail:

suman - May 18 2004 suman@thisandthat.com

Dear Mr. Moderator:

How can we tolerate "chauvinistic and racist" postings on this supposedly "progressive" website? It is no service to Panjabi and Panjabiat at all. I will strongly recommend these people to read poetry of our classics, such as Baba ji Guru Nanak, Baba ji Farid, Bullah Shah and Shah Hussain, which is available on this website. It may provide them some peace and serenity to thier aggressive and bewildered self. Their outbursts are nothing but anti-thesis of the love messages of our acclaimed Sufis.

The concept of 'Race' has become obselte long before. Inter-marriages and inter-breeding has made this concept practically unreliable and invalid. In the modern and progressive contexts, the concept of 'Race' only conotes negative meanings of discriminatory nature. A power relationship of domination and subordination. Looking down upon a member of another community as inferior and to have innate disqualifications of mental and physical nature. It is nothing but a philosophy of 'hate' and 'rejection'. So, let us not indulge in propagating this inhuman philosophy of 'chauvinism and racism'. May we progress as an enlightened community of "peace-loving and progressive' panjabis.

Javed Zaki Javed Zaki

Name:	muhammad zaahir - May 19 2004
E-mail:	mzahir@shaw.ca
My URL:	-------------------------------------------------------------
Location:	Victoria, BC Canada
Comments:	I am wondering if there is anybody who is interested in collecting recollections of the massacres committed during 1947 on both sides of the Panjab border. Most of my family was destroyed near Jullundur. I would like to communicate with any one who might have had similar experiences. Specifically, I am interested in knowing if someone, Hindu, Sikh or Muslim has gone back to his/her original village on the other side of the border (I know such travel is not easy) and tried to interview some old people who might have been involved in the murders. How do they feel now? Zahir

Name:	muhammad zaahir - May 19 2004
E-mail:	mzahir@shaw.ca
My URL:	http://pictures.hardcore-sex-1.net/166/
Location:	Victoria, BC Canada
Comments:	I am wondering if there is anybody who is interested in collecting recollections of the massacres committed during 1947 on both sides of the Panjab border. Most of my family was destroyed near Jullundur. I would like to communicate with any one who might have had similar experiences. Specifically, I am interested in knowing if someone, Hindu, Sikh or Muslim has gone back to his/her original village on the other side of the border (I know such travel is not easy) and tried to interview some old people who might have been involved in the murders. How do they feel now? Zahir

Name:

Dulla Bhatti ji and those in the Bay Area who might be interested. On this Friday, May 21 at 7.00 pm, there will be a reading of the play 'Bulleh Shah' at the Mehraan Restaurant in Fremont. This play is written by Shahid Nadeem, a eminent playwright/film director from Pakistan, and has been performed to high acclaim and enthusiasm in both India and Pakistan.

To those in the New York area. The film "Mujahid", written and directed by Shahid Nadeem will be shown on 24 May, 7.00 pm at the Asia Society Auditorium and on the 25th May his play Third Knock will be presented at Seagal Theatre in (I think) New York City College. I saw the film yesterday and it is most interesting and beautifully shot.

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 18 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Brother Sukhbir, I had a few problems with your post, please let me explain, this is not negative criticism but positive, I apologise in advance if any offence is taken, none was intended. Please let me clarify that I do not care about "Bollywood" but I do care about facts. Dilsukh Pancholi may have been a Gujarati (I am just agreeing for convenience sake) but his descendants probably have Punjabi blood, due to their characteristics, Aditya Pancholi does look more Punjabi than a typical Gujarati, he is a big guy, tall, with a lot of manliness, typical Punjabi traits. For example, there are people here who have Punjabi names but are clearly white Americans, they had a Punajbi grandfather or something, just because they have a Punjabi last name doesn't make them racially Punjabi. There are many differing views as to what makes a Punjabi, I would say that race is the most important, then culture, then language, then heritage etc. Any other form of measurement just would not be objective or fair, so a scientific approach is always the best. As for your statements about Amrita Arora, who I still think is Punjabi, I am not convinced, I would appreciate it if you could provide me with a link to back up this information, as ethnology is of great interest to me, I would appreciate it. Her address is actually Sher-e-Punjab colony, maybe that is a clue? I have not read anywhere that she is a Christian, info. would be appreciated. :) Also, what do you mean that Aroras are not Khatris? Then what are they? Uma Devi IS a Punjabi, your info. is wrong bro. Here's a link to her background: http://www.ambedkar.org/entertainment/tuntun.htm - This is why I hesitate to accept anything that doesn't make sense at face value, regardless of the source. Science makes you find the truth till all doubt is erased. More people should embrace it, totally sets you free and makes the truth clear from error. Good old Eienstein! lol :) Anupam Kher is racially a Punjabi, belonging to the Saraswat Brahmin group, they moved to Kashmir around the time of the Islamic invasions of Punjab (around 1000 and later AD), also, Kiron Kher is a Punjabi, so how did she get that name, Kher? If not by marriage to Anupam Kher? If Shahrukh Khan is a Pathan, then I think that it is great he can speak Punjabi, but why reluctently? What's wrong with saying that you can speak a fine language like Punjabi? Atleast it is a real man's langauge, not a feminine language like Hindi/Urdu (Two sides of the same "Hindi heartland" coin). I can't speak Pashto (Pathan's language), so it is nice for non-Punjabis to speak our language, it actually brings us closer together. (When done without compulsion ofcourse) I found this part of your post quite offensive: "What is this distinction that some of you on board make between Sikhs and Punjabis. If Sikhs are not Punjabis, nobody is." While I agree that Sikhs in general have supported Punjabi more than Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Hindus, it is wrong to say that if Sikhs are not Punjabis than nobody is. Punjab and Punjabis were around long before Sikhism was born, also, Sikhism is a religion, a very good one at that, probably among the 2 best in the world, scientifically (Buddhism being the other), but it is not what makes a Punjabi. In the USA, there are litterally thousands of White American Sikhs and more who are converting, who I am sure would feel rather offended at being called Punjabi, they are true blue Americans and have no loyalty or care for Punjab. Religion does not equal race. There are Afghan Sikhs who are loyal only to Afghanistan, same is true of Iranian Sikhs and others, we should not get religion confused with race. Also, I am an Agnostic, my family are mostly Muslims, are you saying we are not Punjabis? That makes no sense brother, please write with a lil more thought next time as words can hurt feelings of others who have the same cause, which is that of Punjabiyat. We Punjabis are all one big family, let us behave as such, I really hate this infighting, no wonder it is so easy for outsiders to take advantage of us, we are too aggressive, let's calm down a bit and be cool. Miss Zinta may or may not be Sikh, I actually heard that she was, whatever the case, religion is irrelevent to me, I know that she is a Punjabi and that's what counts the most, as I have said before, race before religion, blood before water. Race is God made, it can never be changed, everything else can be changed, religion, culture, language etc. and in some cases even sex! lol Shahid Kapur would be effectively classified as a Punjabi, racially he looks like a Punjabi and is at least 50% Punjabi. Not to mention that he has a Punjabi surname and as tradition in South Asia dictates, takes after his father in family matters. You said: "Mr Khan's assimilative model is too funny for words." There is nothing funny about my posts, they are based on hard scientific evidence, not hearsay or BS as our some other people's posts, if you do not understand these then maybe I should explain them to you, you could always do some of your own research on genetics and ethnology. "Going by his logic, it would be possible to establish everyone from George Bush to Osama Bin Laden as originating from the land of five rivers." Not really, as my logic is based on scientific facts not subjective nonsense. President Bush would be related to Punjabis through the old Aryan link, that's about it. Osama Bin Laden is semitic and we have no racial link with him or Arabs. "This may be termed as comic imperialism." Not true, there is nothing comical about science, it is science which proves what the truth is. As for imperialism, I fail to see where in my posts there is any imperialism applied, maybe this is just a misinterpretation on your part but no imperialism of any kind is implied, I can assure you of that my friend. As for your remarks about being "Rondoos", I am more than happy to be a "Rondoo" if it means we Punjabis wake up and take action against our enemies. The reason why some of us are "Rondoos" today is because when we were not, our motherland, people, culture, race, heritage, language etc. were almost destroyed by the parition of Punjab in 1947. Many of us are "dreamers" and wish that such a thing had never happend, we wish that we were still altogther again like the good old days, it's true, we have a lot to cry about, the people that we lost, our homes, friends, families, our memories, our childhoods, and so many other things. My grandfather hasn't seen his Sikh/Hindu school friends for more than 50 years, he wishes that before he dies, he gets one last chance to see them, his old home town, and even to pay respect one last time at the Golden Temple, and he's a devout Muslim! This is the power of love, love of the motherland and love of the Punjabi race. Thus if I am considered a "Rondoo" (weeping person) because I miss our motherland, people and culture, please consider me to be the biggest one of all, infact, I am proud to be such a "Rondoo"! As for the "Bhayyas" threat, I think you are being too PC and liberal, I am all for tolerance but taken to extreme measures, tolerance is a BAD thing, it makes us weak and unable to take action to protect our own interests. The "Bhayyas" in East Punjab are ruining everything, they are coming in large numbers and making a mess of it all, this is what every single East Punjabi friend of mine has said. They are a threat to Punjab because as their numbers keep increasing, they will eventually take over that state and want to declare Hindi as the official language of Punjab! In Pakistan, we have a similar situation happening in Sindh, where the Mohajir foreigners almost outnumber the native Sindhis, soon making them a minority in their own motherland! I don't want the same to happen to East Punjab and encourage all Punjabi brothers to fight this to the death! As for being the "epicentre of the universe", we MUST think like this, coz nobody else is going to do it for us, infact most would rather we were just destroyed, we have a lot going for us, we are great people, the greatest in all South Asia and the potential to be even further beyond... Let's not mess it up, remember, God helps those who help themselves! :) Brother Rajiv, laugh as much as you wish, I am talking facts, but as long as you are laughing and happy then I suppose that too is a good result! lol :) Brother Akilesh, what do you mean by Aroras are a sub or "lower" caste, one of my friends is Arora and he married a Khatri, the families did not mind, please clarify bro, also, Sikhism does convert in the USA, I have seen many of them, I am not sure about the rest of the world though. Regarding Punjabis and what makes them, I was not saying that Aishwarya Rai or Brahmins in general are Punjabis, I was saying that they are Punjabis racially, which is a fact. Aishwarya Rai definatley does not look Bengali bro, there are thousands of them here in NY, especailly in Jackson Heights, I don't know which Bengalis you been looking at but the ones here look like the total opposite of Ash. I still think she looks Punjabi but this is all subjective anyway. lol :) Most migrations occurred long after the Persians, Scythians, Kushans etc. had invaded and settled down in Punjab. Hence when I talk about Punjabis in race I am talking about being the same (racially) as Punjabis of Punjab today. This is not my opinion but a scientific fact, for example, there are millions of White European South Africans who have lived in South Africa for around 600 years... Does this mean that they are no longer Europeans? True and false, as in the cultural sense they are not, they don't even speak a European language but they are still racially white Europeans. Also, many of us live in the west, are we no longer Punjabis? Science is not subjective, it only tells the truth, the observable facts, no favoritism here bro. That's why it is the best instrument to use when finding out about people's true origins. Sonali Bendre has good taste if she likes Punjab and Punjabis and I am sure we could get to like her too. Didn't some actress go to Pakistan recently, which caused a stir in "India"? Was it Urmila? Anyway, regards to you all, I think we should move on now to something more constructive... :) Regards to you all, Brother Prem S Kahlon, most Sindhis are Muslims but I have met some who claim to be Sikhs but don't seem to follow it properly, I would like to know what they actually do follow. Thanks... Ahmed Khan

Name:	kaurasach - May 18 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Rajeev ji, Aseen kiyon buraa manvan gay. Apnian sochan dasian nay. Main tihanoon naheen kah riah see. Hor website tay bara bhangra pay riha hay bai hun taan Manmohan singh swargan day jhutay duaaoo ga. Tuseen theek kah rahe hon hay iston pariya likhia banda shaid na hovay. Tay baakian nalon changa hai. Mere khyal tay jwab ohnan laee nay jo isnoo SIKH PM tay jiadan jor day rahe nen tay keh rahe nay ki hun sikh khatan gay. Bhaavein eh paraia likhia , Hai eh kath putli. Ik gal main shak rakh kay kehna haan ki Sonia apni Sas jinni gandi nahin tay naa hi apnay khasam wargi. Kiyon ki siaasat day naal naal, eh Italy tay us desh di mat tay dharam day gun vi shaiad rakhdi hai. Jay isdi Sas hundi, ohne malomali PM bun jaana si bhaavain 100 rolay pende Congress Raj Punjab wich tay Capt (jo sirf naan da Punjabi tay sikh ai) nay Punjabi yaan Punjabi di koi tarakee nahin keete. Eh saadi saanji Bad naseebi eh kay aseen dulay khoon nu sirf votan tay electionan wailay yaad karnay aan. Ikali congress hee nahin, Akaalee khotay wee ohnay hi besharam ai. Is kar kay hi saadi Qaum, Boli, Tay Desh da eh haal eh.

Name:

rajeev - May 18 2004

E-mail:

Kaurasach veer jee,

Buraa naa manaaya jae, ae khabar sun kae riots baare dhyaan nahin gayaa mera. Manmohan Singh badaa hee kaabil insaan hae, baakiaan dae chor-uchakkaiyaan ton lakh darze changaa jae- mere khyaal wich. Veer jee, mein Congress daa koi supporter nahin per sochan waali gal hai kae Punjab wich halle wee Congress Party maujood hai tae Sikh member atte politician elect hundae nein. Tuhaadae khayaal wich hor kedaa Punjabi politician (other than IK Gujral, Harkishen Singh Surjit etc.) purae mulak wich "well known and respected" hai?

Samay hee dassegaa kee o Punjab deaan zakhmaan noon bhar sakdaa hai kae nahin, but given the situation I strongly feel that he atleast deserves a chance. Agge rab dee marzee.

Sat Sri Akal

Name:	kaurasach - May 18 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Rajeev ji Ehneean kilkarian naa maro hale. Giani nay kaihray Chan Chaare Si. Paaltoo kutay wangoon magar magar punch maarda riha. Anti sikh riots walay goona bun giya. Es presidency da kee faida. Manmohan Singh di vee ehi nasal aiy bus farak ehna ee ai kay eh pariya likhia aiy. Manmohan Singh may be a good or a learned economist, but he is a faithful chamcha. I doubt if he will be a good sikh PM. It is doubtful that his PMship will bring any good or justice to the anti sikh riots. Since his master`s party was the culprit. Only an empty statement and pomp will be theirs `first sikh PM` whoopee doo. The puppet`s strings would be in his mistress` hands and Congress agenda will be his.

Name:

rajeev - May 18 2004

E-mail:

Pyaare mitro

The recent developments in India might see Dr. Manmohan Singh as the first Sikh Prime minister of India. (We have had a Sikh President in Giani Zail Singh.) It is very encouraging to see the country led by two very able personalities. Our president APJ Abdul Kalam is a scientist of acclaim and Dr. Manmohan Singh is a well known economist in local and international circles. The nomination is not confirmed yet but Manmohan Singh's name has been making rounds in all the major news agencies. Lets hope that it comes true.

Sat Sri Akal

Name:	rajeev - May 18 2004
E-mail:	fakemail@donotspam.com
Comments:	Untitled Document

Name:	Shahid - May 18 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Not that it is new to most on this Forum (and elsewhere), many of the 'persons' posting at this Forum are not what they pretend to be. It is sad in many ways. 'Truth in journalistic expression' is important. It is not fair to pretend someone else. Worse is when the intent is to 'bad-reflect' others, e.g., culture, faith, people, etc.

Name:	Shahid - May 18 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Sorry I missed, and am late. Now I have started to feel somewhat embarassed; one for me being put on the spot by two dear friends, and second what if 'meN koee supp nah kaDDh sakya' which is most likely scenario, in particular in this case. The fact of the matter is, unlike Panjabi which has a history going back thousands of years even before Sanskrit and Vedic languages and thus has a lot it can claim its own in terms of vocabulary, Urdu does not have anything of its own that now it claims as its own. It is all a true example of 'kahiN kee eeNt kahiN ka roRa'. Many friends have already given a range of expressions for the 'feeling' related this particular word. ThaNd is cool - I am sure we all had occasions when 'kalejay ThaNd paee hovay gee'. Now it is the context in which Panjabi expressions excel to the extent that no other language even comes close. 'goree goree cha-na-ni dee ThaNdee ThaNdee chhhaN way', most friends must have heard sung by Noor JehaN. ThanDa thaar: be it mother's kiss to her beloved child, or even a symbolic kiss of a lover from a distance for her/his loved one. Then 'seet' ya 'ThaNda seet' comes with its own full meanings, good and/or bad. ThaNda, ThaNd, are purely Panjabi words (even today go to some deep LehNda village, and you will hear, ThaDDa, ThaDD - without the 'N' sound used in the same sense (please do not mix it with ThuDDa; one truly wonders at the riches of PaNjabi, you hear a minute change and it is a new, completely differt word). If I disappointed anybody, I apologize for not coming up to her/his expectation.

Name:	Abul Fazal Mahmud - May 18 2004
E-mail:	afmahmud@yahoo.com
Location:	PARKTON, MD USA
Comments:	Re: PaNjabi equivalent of COOL. There has been great input from many sources. But let me recap on analogy of NIGHA. We can have Nigha Laif We can have Nigha Banda We can have Nighi ThaN We can even have Nighi Gal! Now that is the quality I was looking for in an equivalent of COOL. ThaNda like its opposite is for a harsh feeling although with variations like ThaNda Thar. Just like warm has a separate connotation from Hot. Have we got such a word for Cold in PaNjabi? Or, perhaps, after all, we do not need it as much as Nigha???

Name:	Rupinder - May 18 2004
E-mail:	rupe@panindia.com
Location:	London, Uk
Comments:	I thought the idea was cool in terms of temperature or climate, rather than Cool Dude? In which case I'd say Tuhundaa is suffcient. If not make a new word up.

Name:	rajeev - May 18 2004
E-mail:	fakemail@donotspam.com
Comments:	Sajano I just remembered, how could I forget Kalpana Chawla, she was a Punjabi from Karnal. God bless her. Sat Sri Akal

Name:	Javed Zaki - May 17 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Dear Saeed Farani, We will depart New york on May 21st and will reach Lahore on May 22nd. We are planning to visit Islamabad soon after for 4-5 days, but it all depends on circumsatances which still are not under control. Anyways, I will contact you from Lahore. I originally was very much inclined to get published my 2nd book of poetry during my 5-weeks stay but recently I am thinking to delay it. On rereading and self-critically my own poetry, I found some of the poems not at par with my own set standards. Either I rewrite them or trash them. Well! let us see what happens. Javed Zaki

Name:

Sardarz - May 17 2004

E-mail:

sgwugdtag@visto.com

Abul Fazal Mahmud Sahib,
I read your post after I posted a response to "Cool Dude".
Here are a few punjabi expressions for Cool,feel free to disagree with the ones you think dont do justice..

-Vah..or Vah bai Vah
-Ashkay..
-Kamaal ae
-Mar JavaaN Gurh Khaa ke
-The exclamationehhae.. or Oi Hoye

Regards.

Name:

Sardarz - May 17 2004

E-mail:

bfdhsbudysuy@visto.com

Jagjit Ji,

Vakeya hi bara Mushkil sawaal paya je.
"Cool Dude" type of words are used in Punjabi,but I guess there are no one or two punjabi words that can be similar to this English expression.But lets try..

Apneo,
Feel free to shoot down the ones that dont seem similar to cool dude.

-Mauji... e.g Uhdi kehri gal ae,uh taan Mauji banda ae..
-Vailee...e.g O kidaaN Vaileeya...
-Mast Malang...
-YaraaN da YaaR ...
-Dildaar...
-Khush Mijaz...
-Raunki....

Regards

Comments:

Jagjit Ji,

Vakeya hi bara Mushkil sawaal paya je.
"Cool Dude" type of words are used in Punjabi,but I guess there are no one or two punjabi words that can be similar to this English expression.But lets try..

Apneo,
Feel free to shoot down the ones that dont seem similar to cool dude.

-Mauji... e.g Uhdi kehri gal ae,uh taan Mauji banda ae..
-Vailee...e.g O kidaaN Vaileeya...
-Mast Malang...
-YaraaN da YaaR ...
-Dildaar...
-Khush Mijaz...
-Raunki....

Regards

Name:

rajeev - May 17 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Untitled Document

kaurasach jee, DullaBhatti and Abul Fazal saab,

The word "sheetal" in Hindi is found in Punjabi as "seetal". Also, "cool dude" could be one with "seel subaah", "shaant subaah" etc.

Side Note: My cousin in Ludhiana could never complete a sentence without "tussionee" e.g. "badaa tussionee mundaa hai". hee hee hee..Is that even a real word? It is not Punjabi for sure, not English as far as I know..!!

Name:	Abul Fazal Mahmud - May 17 2004
E-mail:	afmahmud@yahoo.com
Location:	PARKTON, MD USA
Comments:	Dullah Bhatti Ji tay Kaurasach Ji Tuhada bahut shukriya bhar thora jhia hor zor lao halaN gal nain jay bani. (Cold place) tay (Cool place) day wichkar jehra faraq ay o tusee janday o. Saeedji, tusaN tay channan pan wala nher pa chhadia jay. Meinun tay adat thaNda yakh kahn di naeen sadoN thanda seet akhan di ree ay. Bhar ainhaN wichoN koi ve lafz cool wala swad naeen dainda. Chalo aseeN Dr. Shahid nooN udeek lainay aaN. Haray da niaN!

Name:	kaurasach - May 17 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	If he is a cool cucumber, I usually say Thanda Kheera If it is a she I say Thandi Tar

Name:

DullaBhatti - May 17 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

APNA forum di chakki ajjkal baRhi taiz ghumm rai ay....kai kai page thalle karke paRhna painda...good to see everyone participating.

Cool....what would be the phrase for the term "cool dude" used in America? e.g. He is a one cool dude...oh baRhi shai ay? yaaN oh baRhi kutti cheez ay?:-)

Read the following article by Amarjit Chandan on Punjabi website www.nisot.com.
http://www.nisot.com/Amarjeet%20Chandan.htm

Name:	Saeed - May 17 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjabi Pakistan
Comments:	Paa Fazal Jee, tusi 'cold' nooN taaN 'ThaNDaa' yaa, ThaNDaa Yakh (yakh farsee daa lafz ey te eysey lafz toN yakhnee banaayaa geyaa ey), barfeelaa, ThaNDaa Baraf, ThaNDaa baraf nooN je hor vee ThaNDaa karnaa howey taaN ThaNDaa agg, baraf agg vee keh sakdey o. agg (fire) wargaa ThaNDaa vee kamaal da ey. ThaNdey laee ik lafz [see] vee ey jithoN lafz siyaal (winter) baNyaa ey. iNj weysey 'ThaNDey' laee ik hor lafz vee vartiyaa jaaNdaa ey te oh hey seet, seetal. Punjabi wich ThaNDaa chaNgey maaniyaaN wich vee vartiyaa jaaNdaa ey. jeeveyN ThaNDee chhaaN toN muraad pleasent shadow ey jeeveyN tusi Noor Jehan daa ik gaaNaa sunyaa hosee "PiplaaN dee ThaNDee ThaNDee chhaaN Dholnaa". cool laee lafz (shabad) ThaNDar vee vartiyaa jaa sakdaa ey jehdaa matlab 'kujh ThaNDaa' ey. Pujabi wich izhaar (expression) baRaa ee khilravaaN te ehdey naal naal DhukvaaN vee ey. Punjabi Urdu daa koee muqaablaa naheeN. Urdu wich lafz shor de laee Punjabi wich kiney ee lafz neyN jeeveyN khap, raolaa, ruphaR, ghul, cheekan, dham, khaR baR, khaRaak pataa nahee hor vee kinney koo lafz hosaN. Dr. Shahid Sahib ey te hor chaanaN paa deyN* taaN boht ee wadhyaa. Regards

Name:	kaurasach - May 17 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Sindhi Sikhs - I know about the Chela Ram Ashram near Solan. They also have temples in Delhi and Bombay. They are not complete sikhs. They have synthesized sikhi and hinduism they do aarti of the Granth like idols. And the Keertan and the Granth is also in Sindhi. They are also clear that these places are not Gurudwaras. I've also heard about Sindhi sikhs, reffered to as Nanakpanthis, and not sikhs. So, I guess, they come in different grades of sikhi. Same can be said of Punjabi sikhs. Ragarding cool water. Some say 'Thhar Bhan Kay". Thanda Subah. I know there is Pbi word for cool but doesn't come to mind it is equivalent of 'sheetal' in hindi.

Name:

Prem S Kahlon - May 17 2004

E-mail:

pkahlon@tnstate.edu

Comments:

Non-Puanjabi Sikhs:

I think most of you are missing Sindhi Sikhs. There are significant numbers of them.Many Sindhi Sikhs are "Sehjdhari" but lots of them are turbaned sikhs and these are the ones who suffered during 1984 riots in Delhi. Unfortunately many had cut their hairs at that time. They use Guru Granth Sahib/Punjgranthi/Gutkas that is written in Sindhi/Arabic script.

Mahmood Jee: I think we can use word for cool temprament as the one with "Nigha Sabhah" And for material warmth as "Kossa" like kossa Paani. Altough cool breeze with moisture is referred to as 'Purra". Because it comes from East and bring good news for parched soil that will bring greenery in punjab, hence is used to denote good feeling. Although these words donot convey the same exact meanings but their use in various contexts does convey the pleasant feeling I think..

Akhilesh Jee: let us not use word like Sub/lower for any caste. Although Khatri do consider Aroras as lower Khatri but that does not make them so.

Bali Jee: Jee AyaN nooN.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 17 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	kaurasach Ji, I have also seen UPite/Bihari Sikhs. Locally there is a whole family (Possibly extended family) of White-european Sikhs. In the states i believe there is something called as '3HO' which is quite popular among Americans. Its members are Sikhs. Dont think any of the above would appreciate being called 'Punjabis' just because they happened to have found inspiration and belief in a religion which originated in Punjab. I agree with you that Sikhs have been cornered into the position of having their religion viewed by outsiders (In India) as something which is exclusively Punjabi. Odd that some Sikhs themselves however seem to agree. As for the issue on who 'owns' Punjabi, there is no issue. All Punjabis and those who are its well-wishers and admirers can stake a claim on it. Garewal, There is and old English word for someone like you 'queer'. Before pissing your pants over what i write try actually read my post first. I did not direct any remark towards you but left a general message. You have got an ugly and immature habit of thinking anyone gives a damn about you enough that they would write something against you personally. Also, your sarcasm is reflective of a shallow, petty individual. I think it is disapointing you would rather engage in such a cheap war of words than actually debate something. If you have a problem with something you can email me and im sure you will find i am pretty flexible and open to suggestions/advice. But im not interested in any b*tch squabble with some random name over the internet. It proves nothing. Regards all,

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 17 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	Having been detoxified in a revelatory moment of all the communal, mischief making poison which was beginning to corrode my being, I dance in abandon to the moral pontifications of the Master for He, as the "God of all", has saved me from sure perdition. Lying prostrate before his splendrous halo, I scream in blinding ecstacy: Balihaari Guru Aapno, Jin Govind diyo bataaye And like a good, obedient school-boy, I promise never again to 'mix region with religion'! A much reformed Sukhbir

Name:	Burewala UK Kaka - May 17 2004
E-mail:	sacred_pipe@yahoo.co.uk
Location:	London, Uk
Comments:	Can anyone tell me the meaning behind the phrase 'sau rab di'. I know its like a sort of promise but can anyone eloborate on its meaning? rab rakha Burewala UK Kaka

Name:	Abul Fazal Mahmud - May 17 2004
E-mail:	afmahmud@yahoo.com
Location:	PARKTON, MD USA
Comments:	Discussing position of PaNjabi vis a vis Urdu with some USPs (Urdu Speaking People calling themselves Muhajir) I raised the point that in certain respects PaNjabi has an advantage over Urdu. For example Urdu has equivalents of HOT and COLD but none for WARM. PaNjabi, on the other hand has its NIGHA which can be used both for substances and personalities, just like its counterpart in English. They had to agree with me. But later on I reflected back on the point. Perhaps PaNjabi is as helpless as Urdu in matter of COLD. There seems to be no PaNjabi word for English COOL. Both WARM and COOL denote pleasent sensations as distinct from harsh ones from HOT and COLD. Can someone come up with a PaNjabi word of tha kind? Can we have some input on the subject?

Name:	kaurasach - May 17 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Akhilesh and others, I've rarely met a sikh who is not Punjabi. I've met a Gorkha sikh in Simla. His wife was a jatti. Also met a Bhaiya sikh in Agra. And a Madhya Pardesi sikh too. Sikhs have been equated with Punjabi by the rest of India, politicians and common too. In Rajasthan, ANYONE who speaks Punjabi is seen as a 'sardar'. Sikhs have been cornered into this position or equation. Some Punjabis, rightly, say that Sikh aren't the only starlwarts' or owners of Punjabi. And this is not even an issue with sikhs. But, the circumstances and history has brought this to be the perception.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 17 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Sukhbir, i dont know how true it is to say that '99%' of all Sikhs trace their origin to Punjab. Actually, im sure if some Sikhs traced their background they would find their ancestors had migrated to Punjab after converting to Sikhism. However, the point remains that Sikhs and Punjabis are not synonymous with eachother just like no other religious group is synonymous with a particular race (Not even Jews). I dont know where you live but here you will find plenty of non-Punjabi Sikhs. As Farhat Khan has often stated, separate region from religion. Rupinder Ji, Please find contact addresses at the following links for you to make your suggestion to: http://www.panjabradio.co.uk/ http://www.akashradio.com/ http://www.desiradio.org.uk/ http://www.apnaradio.com/ http://radiohumsafar.com/ http://www.amritbani.com/ http://www.sukhsagarradio.com/ Agree with you kaurasach Ji. It is entirely their choice though. They may be ashamed of being a Punjabi (God alone knows why) but as long as they are not working against those who wish to preserve and promote the Punjabi language and culture then no one needs to get mad or bother with them.

Name:	kaurasach - May 17 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	We shouldn't name these 'Punjabis' with such admiration. Very few of them are proud of Punjabi. A few years back, Harjeet Mehndi did a show in San Diego. He refused to sing Punjabi Songs and kept on singing in Hindi. Audience had enough of it. They booed him, cussed at him, and walked out. He changed his tune. But he was a DEETH because for a long time he insisted that their were people in the audience that "Wanted" to hear him sing in Hindi. This was rubbish because almost everyone was a sikh Punjabi and demanded he sing in Punjabi. Rabindra Nath Tagore told KL Saigal that he is a prostitute if he shuns his mother tongue in favor of Hindi. Jagjit Singh also suffers from the same complex as other Punjabi personalities. He once said he doesn't want to be labelled as a Punjabi singer, as if it is a bad label. Same goes with singers like Gurdas Mann, etc.

Name:	Sardar M. Maroof Khan Kashmiri - May 17 2004
E-mail:	smmaroofkk74@yahoo.com
My URL:	http://
Location:	Islamabad, Pakistan Pakistan
Comments:	I like ur site.

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 17 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	First, the Observation "It is the unfortunate myth and mischief making of some that has caused this crazy idea that Sikhism is exclusive only to Punjabis." And now the Obversation Sikhs are predominently (not exclusively) Punjabis only in the sense that nearly 99% of them trace their lineage back to Punjab - the same unfortunately cannot be said to apply to any other religious community of the world. But this alone does not place the Sikhs hierarchically above the other Punjabi speaking groups. So one is not labouring under any illusion of ethno-religious superiority. On the contrary - with a leadership as ad hocist and visionless as that spearheaded by the Badals, the Manns, the Siddhu-Amrinders one cannot but undergo a non-stop mortification at being endlessly embarrassed by their monkey tricks and pronouncements. Sukhbir

Name:	Rupinder - May 17 2004
E-mail:	Rupe@panindia.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Dera all On Radio 4 Uk last night I heard that they were running a competion for the intellegensia of the Uk to invent new English words for situations where no words exist. It is this constant interest in English by its own people that have helped it become a powerful language. I suggest Punjabi readio station in Canada, USA, UK , Pakistan and India do the same. This can only help strenghten Punjabi. The words that win will slowly filetr into writing and language. It has to start somehow. regards Rupe

Name:	Akhilesh - May 17 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	The distinction between 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' is the same as the distinction between 'Muslims' and 'Arabs'. Ethnic groups and religious groups are two separate things. As everyone is well aware, not all Punjabis share the same religious beliefs, and not all of the Sikhs are Punjabis. Just like not all the Arabs are Muslim (Lebanon has a sizeable Arab Christian population). At my Gurdwara there are Sikhs of non-Punjabi origin. As a religion, Sikhism transcends nationalities, cultures, races. Punjabis make up the bulk of Sikh population for two reasons: 1) Sikhism developed and flourished in Punjab. 2) Sikhism is not a missionary faith, therefore, does not actively seek new converts. A clear line exists between religion and culture. A non-Punjabi who embraces Sikhism is under no obligation to assimilate into the Punjabi culture and ditch whatever culture they were born into. For their benefit, it would be wise to learn Punjabi, but that in no way makes them one. It is the unfortunate myth and mischief making of some that has caused this crazy idea that Sikhism is exclusive only to Punjabis. This is one reason im sure why there is much misunderstanding about this faith. Ahmed Khan Ji, Aroras are a sub (or 'lower') division of Khatri caste. I think you are quite mistaken in your analysis of what makes a 'Punjabi'. Fair enough that thousands of years ago perhaps certain 'Brahmins' may have migrated out of Punjab, but that does not make them 'Punjabis'. It would be more correct to say that are of Aryan descent. After countless generations of living outside of Punjab how could you call these people 'Punjabis'? While they had moved out of Punjab, new races (Persian, Scythian, Kushana etc) had moved in. Anyway if we are talking in racial/ethnic terms then Aishwarya in my opinion does not look 1% Punjabi. I think she has features typical of a Bengali. Shilpa Shetty has plastic surgery all over her face so we cant comment on her looks now. Altho, she is a South Indian which is a fact. There was a report on Tribune awhile back which quoted Sonali Bendre saying she 'loved Punjab and Punjabis' and was married to one. This is the 'link' you're probably talking about. Ps, im very surprised to see the amount of names in Indian film industry who are of Punjabi origin. Would be nice if they could make a Punjabi movie or two, or could have made movies with a Punjabi theme like Pinjar (Which i havent seen yet) in our language.

Name:	Saeed - May 17 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dr. Javed Zaki Jee, Please let me know the exact dates of your visit to Islamabad. We have an active group of a few friends of Punjabis in Rawalpindi and Islamabad. The name of the organisation is "Sianaf (sianaf)and we arrange meetings after every fifteen days. I would love to inform my friends about your visit and we will feel great pleasure to listen your poetry as well as your views on the topic which you would like. Regards. Saeed Ahmad Adnan Books, Dubai Plaza, 6th Road Chowk, Rawalpindi, Pakistan PH: 0092-51-4417813 Mobile # 0300-5234006 saeedfarani@hotmail.com, saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com

Name:

rajeev - May 16 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Untitled Document

Sukhbir jee,
Absolutely correct! Infact part of the "Punjab Shining" list is meant for self-appreciation. We are industrious people and should take time to celebrate our spoils in various fields. By the way, I am all for "comic impearlism" of Ahmed Khan veer as long as it gives me laughs!! No offence, Ahmed veera.

Sardarz,
Thanks for the list additions.

Sajjano, koi hor field shuru karo tae everybody will contribute. How about Literature(Punjabi and Non Punjabi) or anything else. Sameer jee, Sukhbir jee, Suman jee, Saeed sahab etc. should start the "literature" list since they are our panel experts on that!! I'll try to think of some and add to the list.

Sat Sri Akal

Name:	Sardarz - May 16 2004
E-mail:	iuhuhiu@visto.com
Comments:	Sukhbir Ji, Right on... You hit the hammer on the nail head

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 16 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	Dalsukh Pancholi was a Gujarati settled in Lahore so clearly he and his grandson remain Gujaratis Calling them Punjabis would be like calling Dilip Kumar and Raj Kapoor Marathis. Amrita and Malaika Aroras are not Punjabi Aroras - they are Christians from the Konkan Maratha region. The Arora in their names is a distortion of the original Aurora. And, by the way, Aroras are not Khatris. Uma Devi alias Tun Tun is not a Punjabi - those who have seen her Punjabi films opposite Johny Walker and Bhainga would know how remarkably alien her Punjabi accent was. Anupam Kher is a Kashmiri who speaks excellent Punjabi. Kiran Kher is a blue-blooded Punjabi, though. Sharukh Khan, whom I met when he was emerging as a star, admitted to me, albeit reluctantly, that he was a Punjabi-speaking Pathan. I recall having a very lively discussion with him in Punjabi. What is this distinction that some of you on board make between Sikhs and Punjabis. If Sikhs are not Punjabis, nobody is. Ms Zinta is not a Sikh. But Punjabi is freely spoken in her family - so you can make your own inferences. Shahid Kapoor's father, Pankaj Kapoor, is from Ludhiana and speaks excellent Punjabi. But Shahid's mother Nilima Azeem is from UP Mr Khan's assimilative model is too funny for words. Going by his logic, it would be possible to establish everyone from George Bush to Osama Bin Laden as originating from the land of five rivers. This may be termed as comic imperialism. But all this brings me to a larger issue: If we Punjabis with a pan-Indian constituency of maybe 5-crores at the utmost, can so disproportionately dominate and indeed hegemonise, the Indian cinema - why do we cry so much about the threat of cultural imperialism from an imagined communities of the "Bhayyas"? And these statistics could be shown to function in much the same way in other fields as well. I somehow find this "roNdoo" streak in the Punjabis extremely annoying. Its about time that we grew up and behaved like a tolerant community and stopped imaging ourselves to be the very epicentre of the universe. Sukhbir

Name:

Sardarz - May 16 2004

E-mail:

m,m,kmokjoi@visto.com

Comments:

Here we go a few additions to Punjabis in sports

Prem Chand Dogra (Mr. Universe) from Gurdaspur Punjab
Balvinder Singh (Asian Shot put champion for many years)
A lot of Asian champion female Gymnasts from Gurdaspur Punjab

Bali Ji
Welcome back,and come often :-)

Regards

Name:	Sameer - May 16 2004
E-mail:	sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:	Good to see the lists of celebrities of Panjabi origin. Additionally it would come as a surprise that most of them, hindus, are originally from part of Panjab now in Pakistan. like Gulzar (Jhelum, similar to former Indian Prime Minster I. K. Gujral) Sunil Dutt and Rajinder? Kumar (Sialkot) Shalendra and Anand Bakhshi (Rawalpindi) Roshan (Gujranwala) Surriya and Shamshad Begum (Lahore) Manoj Kumar (Abbotabad) Dilip Kumar and Kapoors (Peshawar) Talat Mahmood was from Lucknow, Nargis was also from UP, Ashwirya Rai is from Karnatka, Anupam Kher is a Kashmiri possibly a Brahmin like Raj Kumar of yore - both fluent in Panjabi like Shahrukh Khan who is a Pathan, Urmila Matonkar is Maratha and Sonali Bendre a Gujrati, like Asha Parekh, Sanjeev Kumar and Pankhaj udhas..... Probably Bengalis would come next to Panjabis in numbers in Hindi film industry, Waheeda Rehman and Tabbu (Tabassum Hashmi) from Hyderabad...etc etc.. One Panjabi most often missed from the list is new member of lok sabha from Bombay..Govinda. Similarly singer Sonu Nigam is a Haryanvi and able to speak Panjabi....Kavita Krishnamurthy, Alka Yagnik, Kumar Shanu are Bengalis...Actually there are several websites which provide database on Indian entertainment celebrities..One person I never found much ethnicity info is former actress Mumtaz..

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 16 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Brother Rajiv, I have no intention of "stealing" anyone else's glory, but everything I have stated is a fact. These actors and actoresses who are so-called "Bengalis" and "Marathis" are infact ethnic Punjabis, they look nothing like the true natives of those lands. I was only trying to highlight this important fact. I totally love Imran Khan, he is from Lahore, he speaks Punjabi, looks like a Punjabi, even acts like a Punjabi, we even have the same last name but we cannot claim him as one of our own as he is infact an ethnic Pathan and I truly respect that fact. Like I said before, I don't care for these "Bollywood" people, they have done nothing for Punjab and Punjabiyat and are a total disgrace, maybe with the exception of Karishma Kapoor who DOES care about Punjab/Punjabi, so I have a great deal of love and respect for this sister, she married a Punjabi Sikh (also a Kapoor) just recently, so at least she is keeping her Punjabi blood intact! I hope there are more good Punjabi actors in the near future who will actually do something for Punjabiyat. Brother Javid, good posts, very educational, thanks! I think we should look at other things now which Punjabis are good at. How about business? Anyway, regards to you all, talk later, Ahmed Khan

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 16 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Dear brothers/sisters, some of you have said that certain people are not Punjabis but I beg to differ as I am using the racial "measuring stick" and you guys are using other forms of measurement which are very subjective unlike the objective one I use. Not that I give a damn about these "Bollywood" people but I do like to talk facts, afterall, I am a scientist. I don't know how many of you have studied genetics or ethnology (used to be known as "Race Science" in the 19th century) but these are the true scientific instruments one must use in order to find the true origins of people. Afterall, an Englishmen is always an Englishmen, no matter where he is born, same is true for a German and a Punjabi etc. I would like point out some facts about a few actors mentoned in the various lists: Anupam Kher was born in Shimla, Himachal (East Punjab), so there is a high probability that he is Punjabi: http://www.musicindiaonline.com/news/articles/Nov12-2.html Arora clans are always Punjabis, they are part of the Khatri group, this is a well known fact. Sonali Bendre has some sort of link with Punjab, so does Urmila, I read it in a newspaper, can't remember what though, if she is a Brahmin, then she is definately racially Punjabi but not culturally, linguistically etc. Dia Mirza, if she is not a Punjabi, then I am President Bush, every single Mirza I know are Punjabis, one of my best friends is a Mirza, there are millions in Pakistan and I am sure also in East Punjab. Mirza's are usually Jat clans. Aditya Pancholi is the grandson of Dilsukh Pancholi, a Lahori Punjabi! :) - http://dawn.com/2000/12/24/fea.htm Mahima Chaudhary - She was born in Dehli as are millions of Punjabis, her surname is Punjabi, she looks Punjabi more than anything else, if she is not a Punjabi, I will eat my baseball cap! lol Shahrukh Khan - I heard some people say he is Punjabi, can some one confirm or deny this? Priety Zinta is a Sikh but I am not sure she is Punjabi, however, she was born in Himachal (East Punjab), so is most likely a Punjabi. One of my friends who is into "Bollywood" said she's Punjabi, she has all the features so she most probably is. Aishwarya Rai is a Saraswat Brahmin and there are many of these people living in Kerala, South India, from where she hails, all of these people are originally from Punjab: http://www.gsbkerala.com/gsbhistory.htm - Recent genetic testing also confirmed this, I will try and find the reports on the internet and post them here when I have the time. Some "Indian" authors have claimed she has a "Kashmiri" origin, however, it is a well know fact that nearly all Kashmiri Pandits (99%) themselves are Saraswat Brahmins, who also came from Punjab. Thus, although not a Punjabi in linguistic/cultural terms, she is indeed a Punjabi in racial terms. Shilpa Shetty, like Sunil Shetty, is a Kshatriya Bunt, they also claim origin from Punjab, which is a fact as there are NO native Kshatriyas in all of South India. Also, please note that all Brahmins are Punjabis racially except the converted South Indian honourary "Brahmins". There are no converted or honorary Kshatriyas (known as Khatris in Punjab) in all of South India. Shahid Kapur is a Punjabi, his dad is Pankuj Kapur and mom is Nileema Azim. Hence he has a Muslim first name. Otherwise he is most probably a "Hindu" after his father, as is the tradition in South Asia. Nusrat Ustad Fateh Ali Khan, what a genius, a true musical master, much loved and much missed! God bless him! A true blue Punjabi! Dear Brother Bali Deol, unfortunately Punjabis are sometimes the greatest people and at the same time, the most foolish people too, hopefully, we here can change that! :) Regards to you all, Ahmed Khan

Name:	rajeev - May 16 2004
E-mail:	fake@donotspam.com
Comments:	Akhilesh veer, Priety Zinta is most probably a punjabi speaking punjabi AFAIK. Not sure though.

Name:

rajeev - May 16 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Untitled Document

Sukhbir veer jee Thanks for the input on the list. The list is getting long and long, good-good. TunTun is Punjabi for sure, real name Uma Devi Khatri. Passed away last year I think. Sang for a few Punjabi movies also with Shamshad Begum like in KODAY SHAH (1953). Her thick Punjabi accent stayed with her all through her acting career.

Lets start another list. This time lets think about prominent personalities in Science/Technlogy/Industry/Sports. I will contribute a few.

Indian Hockey teams/Pakistan Hockey teams (Punjab dominates, too many names so I will just club them together)
Cricket (Bishen Singh Bedi, Kapil Dev(Punjabi from Haryana), Yuvraj Singh, Harbhajan Singh, Maninder Singh, Navjot Sindhu (now an Member of Parliament !!), Mohinder Amarnath, Lala Amarnath, Surinder Khanna.. A lot of Pakistani Cricket team has always been punjabi -- Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, Waseem Akram, Imran Khan(Punjabi speaking Pathan from Lahore))
Miscllaneous (Sports) Flying Sikh Milkha Singh, help needed here?? I am aware that there are a lot of unsung athletes but a few names here woud be great.

Science/Technology/Business (Some were Non Resident Punjabis)
Dr. Manmohan Singh, renowned economist - our own Punjabi Greenspan if you will!
Dr. Hargovind Khurana, Nobel Prize for medicine in 1968
Sabir Bhatia, founder of Hotmail.com
Bhai Mohan Singh, founder of Ranbaxy Labs in India, Now led by Parminder Singh

Will add to this list later, lets see what else have we got specially from our West Punjab.

Khush raho, Sat Sri Akal

Name:	Akhilesh - May 16 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Aishwarya Rai is not a Punjabi and neither is Shilpa Shetty. Mallika Sherawat is a Jat from Haryana state, so Sukhbir veer is right that she is a Punjabi. However, i read an interview where this lady said "Haryana was the most backwards part of the country". Not too proud of her roots it seems. Is Priety Zinta a Punjabi? I know she is Sikh but that does not automatically make her a Punjabi. Also i thought all 'Arora's' were Punjabis? I have only seen a few Indian movies (Maybe 3 or 4). There was a movie called 'Border' about one of the Sikh/Punjab regiments going up against the Pakistani army. How many of the main actors in that were real Punjabis? (Sorry i dont know any names). On my flight back from Punjab last December i saw a movie on the plane with a guy called 'Shahid Kapur', im thinking he probably is a Punjabi. Anyway, not an actor but Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is someone all Punjabis should be proud of since he was not only popular in Pakistan/India but was World renowned. Bali k Deol Ji, You're right that they dont do much for Punjabiyat. Their choice. Saeed Ji, Thanks for the contact info.

Name:	Javed Zaki - May 16 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Lahore Museum to set up Sikh gallery http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/002200405161162.htm

Name:	Javed Zaki - May 16 2004
E-mail:	zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:	Honouring a hero http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag5.htm

Name:

Bali K. Deol - May 15 2004

E-mail:

swaraj@shaw.ca

Comments:

Kiddha Punjabiyo!!

Actually Akshaye Kumar is one of the nicest Punjabi's I have met. He also did his utmost to speak Punjabi wherever possible during his stay in Vancouver, which quite possibly could be taken as a very good act of public relations, since Vancover is primarily dominated by Punjabi's.

Really though all these Bollywood 'Stars' that happen to be Punjabi, what do they do for Punjabiat. So many of these actors deny their punjabi roots, language and culture unless it suits them not to do so.

I'm disgusted when I see singers like Sukhwinder Singh come to Vancouver and not utter one word of Punjabi knowing that 80% of the audience is precisely that. The same Sukhwinder Singh who used Punjabi as a platform to launch himself from, aaj nakk charaa ke kehnda e, as does Jaspinder Narula ki "Assi ji, punjabi gaane gaa lainde aa kade kade, par sab ton pehle jiada te assi Hindi gaayak haaN.

I have sat in informal mehfils, (the back of a van) with a bunch of singers etc who are Punjabi but who work now in Bollywood and watched their distate when I dared to commit the biggest faux pas of all time, in their classy mehfil which was to utter a sher in Punjabi.

Too many of these personailties use Punjabi when it suits them, and discard it at will. Still though nice to see a long list of successful Punjabi'z even if they choose not to advertise the fact!

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 15 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	To add to the film trivia - now that my Election holidays have ended I finally bid adieu Prithviraj Kapoor Raj Kapoor Shammi Kapoor Shashi Kapoor Randhir Kapoor Rishi Kapoor Chetan Anand Dev Anand Vijay Anand Kalpana Kartik Geeta Bali Madhubala � a Punjabi speaking Pathan who spent her childhood in Delhi�s Jama Masjid area Yash Chopra, B R Chopra Ravi Chopra Aditya Chopra Karan Johar Ramanand Sagar (Ramayan fame) � Punjabis from Srinagar, Kashmir Vidhu Vinod Chopra � step-brother of Ramanand Sagar Manoj Kumar Vinod Khanna (Member of Parliament/actor) Rajesh Khanna Sahir Ludhianvi(Lyricist) Naksh Layallpuri Dev Kohli O P Nayyar(Music Director) Madan Mohan Hansraj Behal Jaidev Khayyam Sardar Malik Anu Malik � mother non-punjabi Noorjahan Mohammed Rafi Jagjit Singh Sukhwinder Daler Mehnd Rabbi Gill Dilip Kumar(How come he speaks fluent Punjabi??) Sunil Dutt Shahrukh Khan the original Khan K N Singh(Villiain, Old movies) - Absolutely Not � He is a UPITE Rajput Prem Chopra(How did I foget him?) Shakti Kapoor Neetu Singh Rajkumari Jagjit Kaur Dilraj Kaur Jaspinder Narula(Singer) Uttam Singh(Music director) Hrithik Roshan - father non-Punjabi Raveena Tandon mother non-Punjabi Amitabh Bachan father a UP Kayasth Amrita Arora sorry Malaika Arorasorry Mahima Chaudry definitely non-Punjabi Mallika Shehrawat real name Reema Lamba makes her a Punjabi Gracy Singh Priyanka Chopra Anil Kapoor Kareena Kapoor mother a non-Punjabi Krishma Kapoor mother a non-Punjabi Gulshan Grover Sanjay Dutt mother non-Punjabi Aditya Pancholi definitely non-Punjabi Bikram Saluja Neha Dhupia Dia Mirza definitely non-Punjabi Akshay Kumar Vivek Oberoi Amrita Singh mother non-Punjabi Dhaminder Deol Sunny Deol Bobby Deol Akshay Khanna Rahul Khanna Sonali Bendre definitely non-Punjabi Twinkle Khanna mother non-Punjabi Poonam Dhillon Juhi Chawla Nargis Dutt definitely non-Punjabi Anupam Kher Kashmiri but speaks excellent Punjabi Kiran Kher Amrish Puri Madan Puri Om puri Dara Singh Jimmy Shergill (Maatchis fame) Ajay Devgan definitely Punjabi Bhupinder Singh Mahinder Kapoor K L Saigal Shamshad Begum Talat Mahmood definitely non-Punjabi Sampooran Singh 'Gulzar' Uma Devi 'TunTun' NO WAY a Punjabi Rajinder Kumar Balraj Sahni(Brother Parikshit Sahni).. wrote some short stories and novels IIRC - Parikshit not brother but son Bhisham Sahni Govinda(real name is some ahuja) mother non-Punjabi

Name:

rajeev - May 15 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Untitled Document

Sardarz veer Good entries. Ajay Devgan is Marathi if I am not mistaken. Will try to find out more.

Ahmed veer Nice list, specially the international one. But lets leave the Marathis and Bengalis from this list. Let them enjoy their own glory and flourish! Also, Sonali Bendre is Marathi.

It seems that Bollywood is proving to be mostly punjabi! A few more that come to my mind.

Yash Chopra, B R Chopra
Ramanand Sagar (Ramayan fame)
Vinod Khanna (Member of Parliament/actor)
Rajesh Khanna
Sahir Ludhianvi(Lyricist)
O P Nayyar(Music Director)
Dilip Kumar(How come he speaks fluent Punjabi??)
K N Singh(Villiain, Old movies)
Prem Chopra(How did I foget him?)
Shakti Kapoor
Neetu Singh
Jaspinder Narula(Singer)
Uttam Singh(Music director)

If we are pretty much done with the "Bollywood" category lets start with another one. You guys pick one this time, I'll try to contribute. For example Sukhbir veer jee, you can start with a literature list if you like and we can add to it.

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 15 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Brother Rajiv and others, interesting post, although I hate "Bollywood", we should be proud of our Punjabi brothers and sisters who dominate that industry... The list could go on much longer but here are some more: Hrithik Roshan, Raveena Tandon, Amitabh Bachan and his son, Amrita Arora and her sister, Mahima Chaudry, Gracy Singh, Priyanka Chopra, Anil Kapoor, Kareena Kapoor, Krishma Kapoor, Gulshan Grover, Sanjay Dutt, Aditya Pancholi, Bikram Saluja, Neha Dhupia, Dia Mirza, Akshay Kumar, Vivek Oberoi, Amrita Singh, Dhaminder Deol, Sunny Deol, Bobby Deol, Akshay Khanna, Sonali Bendre, Twinkle Khanna, and on and on etc. Here are some more actors who are Punjabis by race only but unfortunately have lost their language, culture, heritage etc. These are: Aishwarya Rai (Saraswat Brahmin - derived from Saraswati River in Punjab, like most real Brahmins, orginally from Punjab), Rani Mukherji and Kajol ("Bengali" Brahmins), Madhuri Dixit ("Maharashtran" Brahmin), Sunil Shetty (Khatri), Shilpa Shetty (Khatri), Mamta Kulkarni ("Sindhi" Punjabi Jat), Aditi Gowalkar ("Maharashtran" Brahmin), Ria and Sushmita Sen ("Bengali" Brahmins), and on and on etc. International actors: Kabir Bedi, Sayeed Jaffery, Ashen Bhatti, Archie Panjabi, Parminder Nagra, Raji James, Ameet Chana, Jimmy Mistry, Meera Syal, Sanjeev Bhaskar, Kulvider Dhir, Amita Dhiri and on and on etc. We Punjabis are the best in most fields where we make an effort, men as well as women, please remember all the Punjabi "Miss Indias" and "Miss Worlds" we have had, our sisters are totally beautiful! It would also be very good to highlight the many successful Punjabi business people too, Sanjiv Sidhu for example, America's richest immigrant! Anyway, let's keep hoping our brothers and sisters keep doing well! :) Regards to all, Ahmed Khan

Name:

Sardarz - May 15 2004

E-mail:

nvdfjfgiuehiu@visto.com

Comments:

Rajeev Ji,

Here is more addition to your list of punjabis in Bollywood

Poonam Dhillon
Juhi Chawla
Nargis Dutt
Anupam & Kiran Kher
Amrish Puri,Madan Puri even Om puri
Dara Singh
Jimmy Shergill (Maatchis fame)
Ajay Devgan
Jagjit Singh
Bhupinder Singh
Mahinder Kapoor

Regards

Name:	Faisal Choudry - May 15 2004
E-mail:	bororeds@hotmail.com
Location:	Gothenburg, Sweden
Comments:	Sorry about my first post ! Dont know what happened ?!

Name:	Faisal Choudry - May 15 2004
E-mail:	bororeds@hotmail.com
Location:	Gothenburg, Sweden
Comments:	Salaam and Satsrikaal to all Punjabi Brothers and Sisters ! There is one question you maybe could help me with: in the late 1980s there was a Hindi TV-serial made by DD called "Dosra Kewal" it stared Shahruhk Khan in his early years,the drama was set in a Punjabi village and i saw it on ZEE TV in 1995.At the end of it there was a song that went something like this:"Meri maa boli punjabi,meri maa boli punjabi ,Bulleh dye kaffie" thats all i remember. Have any one heard it or perhaps have it ? It realy was a great song almost had tears in my eyes when i heard it for the first time !! Any info will be appreciated. I was born in Norway but live in Sweden now.My parents are from West Punjab,our Village is "Dhama" it�s in Dist. Gujrat,about 1 km from Lalamusa.If you travel by train from Lahore to Pindi the train stops at Lalamusa,our village is only 5 min walk away from the station.By the way Lalamusa railway station was made by a company called "Singh Brothers Engineering" i am not sure when it was built but maybe 1920s ?Apparently the company was from Rawalpindi. Would be nice to hear from anyone from the Lalamusa area ! And also what a great site you have made to promote Punjabi Culture !!! RAAB RAHKA !

Name:	Faisal Choudry - May 15 2004
E-mail:	bororeds@hotmail.com
Location:	Gothenburg, Sweden
Comments:	Salaam and Satsrikaal to all Punjabi Brothers and Sisters ! There is one question you maybe could help me with: in the late 1980s there was a Hindi TV-serial made by DD called

Name:

rajeev - May 15 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Untitled Document

Pyaare sajano,

Chalo thodi garmi ho gayee, seht layee changee hundi hai kadi kadi..

I always wanted to compile a "feel good" list of Punjabi greats, a kind of "Punjab shining" campaign of my own!!. It always pulls me up from self-doubt whenever some ignoramuses make stupid comments about Punjabi and Punjabiat (like it is a dialect of Urdu Hindi or whatever!).. I know that we have a diverse selection of Punjabis here so the list could turn out into a real something..

For sure, there will have to be various headings like -- Music(Vocals, Instrumental), Literature, Science, Bollywood-Lollywood and many others that I can't think of. I have a quick mental list of Bollywood(so called "Hindi" film industry)stars which you can add to(Not a big Bollywood fan though!). Of course, some people would appear in multiple lists but we can sort it out later.

Bollywood

K L Saigal
Shamshad Begum
Mohammed Rafi
Talat Mahmood
Sampooran Singh 'Gulzar'
Kapoor family (Prithviraj, Raj, Randhir etc.)
Dhamendar(Sons, Sunny Deol and Bobby Deol)
Sunil Dutt(Son Sanjay Dutt)
Uma Devi 'TunTun'
Rajinder Kumar
Dev Anand(Brothers Tinu and other)
Balraj Sahni(Brother Parikshit Sahni).. wrote some short stories and novels IIRC
Sukhvinder Singh (Singer)
Govinda(real name is some ahuja)

Feel free to make up a new category and add!!

Ahmed Khan Veer
Koi gal nahin. If you are an agnostic what can I say. YOUR views about science and religion are YOUR views. I have different views for example but hey, thats the beauty of this world is it not? I have read a lot of comparative religion and agnostic literature. I just seem to fall on the other side than you do. But no disresespect.

Khush raho tae vasdae rahoo saare punjabio!

Sat Sri Akal

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 15 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Dear brother Safir, fair enough, point taken, in future I shall just provide links as I do not want this good quality website to suffer, again, I clearly state that all views expressed by me are soley mine and do not represent any group or party, even though they may indeed represent millions of fellow Punjabi brothers/sisters. However, I respect the rules of this forum and will abide by them fully. :) Brother Rajeev, you keep misunderstanding me and I will try and show you what I mean by posting some useful links for you to ponder over, as for religions and in my case, Islam, you may express any view you wish as I am not a Muslim any more but an Agnostic for over 2 years. As a Scientist, I can not really believe in any religion as they nearly all clash with science, which is esentailly the truth. The only exceptions to this are Buddhism and Sikhism, which although do not clash yet, they may indeed sometime in the future. I am not here to push any religion as that would be crazy, Punjabis are Punjabis, they may have any religion they wish or have none, they can be fellow Agnostics or even Atheists, Communists, whatever, this is meaningless to me, the only thing that matters is that our Punjabi race be united and stand together, shoulder to shoulder to safeguard our collective interests and glorious Punjabi Aryan language, culture, heritage etc. Brothers Saeed, Shahid and others, good stuff, please keep it up! Brother Akilesh, Thanks for the e-mail but I am not the person you thought I was, however, I do know him and it was him who introduced me to nationalism, thanks for the kind words anyway. Brother Amanullah Khan, It's a great website, please tell everyone else you know about it and most of all, Enjoy! :) Regards to all, Ahmed "Proud Punjabi Aryan" Khan

Name:	Amanullah Khan - May 15 2004
E-mail:	aukhanmd@aol.com
Location:	Dallas, TX USA
Comments:	I am enjoying comments by the Punjabi Friends.

Name:	Saeed - May 15 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Akhilesh Jee, Thanks for liking the post on Punjabi publications. As soon as I will have more books I will inform you. You are interested to buy one copy of the Punjabi Writers' number. Here is the address of the publisher: Ashraf Sohail, Editor Pukheroo, P O BOX. 8059, Lahore Post code:54920. His phone # 0092-42-6850669 and e-mail address: pukheroo@yahoo.com & ashrafsuhail@hotmail.com Paa Shahid Jee, I liked your poem "thaRaa". eh baRee ee halkee phulkee nazm ey. Lahore toN chhapan waalaa punjaabee akhbaar "khabraaN" iNj deeyaaN nazmaaN dahRaa dahR chhaap rehyaa ey. Tusi ohnaaN nooN kujh nazmaaN (halkiyaaN phulkiyaaN) apni tasveer saney (sameyt) ghal deyo. OhnaaN dee ik sharat ey ke oh har nazam (nikee howey yaaN waDDee) kavee (shaer) dee foto naal chhaapdey neyN. Eh address jey Paa Jee: Hussain Shad, Editor KhabraaN, Lawrence Road, Lahore

Name:

rajeev - May 14 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Untitled Document

Ahmed Khan jee

Once again loqacious, redundant and completely off the mark. Do you realize that you made the same points in this post that you did in the last few. Oh! I forgot, now you have a "proof" that will shake the roots of Hinduism by proving it to be a British invention. Buu ha ha ha ha ha ha! My dear friend, I thought that being a Muslim in America and listening to all the vile, drive-time talk radio garbage against Islam would give you some perspective!

I never used "Pakistani" or "Islamic" like words -- not because I give a hoot to political correctness, but because I KNOW it to be incorrect. Like Safir sahib pointed out, please do not bring your enlightened religious views on the table. I am pretty sure that you know that there are scores of web sites out there whose sole purpose is to demonize Islam etc. Lets not go down the "my proof is the right proof" lane.

On second thoughts, there is something to be said of political correctness. Just like you would not curse in front of your elders, try to maintain some semblance of respect for this forum. Infact, I am guilty myself of being over-the-top at times, but not all the time! The reason I say this is because this is indeed a great forum -- published writers, active workers and above all die-hard Punjabis. There is a lot of free for all, full of propoganda, bile producing, foul mouthed forums which you should visit for frequent catharsis. Trust me, it feels good :-) :-)

Yo! I am in a hurry, but I'll pick upon the salient points of your latest post later.

Till then Sat Sri Akal.

Name:	Shahid - May 14 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	For the pleasure of those who are unable to read Panjabi in Persian-script kaNDeyaN day wich ghiryaN phull gulabi aaN muDh qadeemoN raNgeyaN raNg janabi aaN menooN maan chokheray khud-mukhtaree day meN lekhay da pakka Dher hesabi aaN pakkeyaN paar utaraN chuk chuk sir mathhay kacheyaaN khor D'bovaN lehar Chenabi aaN Sohni Heer saleTee SahebaaN meray chuN peevaN ishq kaToray mast sh'raabi aaN char choferay Dher pwaRay meray tuN vall na bhajiyaN vartan niree kh'rabi aaN ikk puchhan tay sao meh'nay gum-rahee day mullaN ji meN bay-samjha ee razi aaN jhaNjar, jhumka, nakhra, guRhtee Bulhay dee luN luN kookay Shahid meN Panjabi aaN Shahid

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 14 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Dear Ahmed Khan: I do not want to discourage you from expressing your thoughts on this forum. Kindly avoid using uncivilized language and totally stay away from religious slurs. I have edited this post slightly - I hope you will get the hint in a positive way. Safir Rammah ---------------------------------- Dear Kaurasach, some of the people on here are slaves to PC liberalism, they will never learn, until Punjabis learn to stand up and fight they will continue to be the "punchbags" of outsiders. You are right, the foreigners are taking over and once they have taken over, what Punjabis say and do will be of no consequence, just look at Sindh for example, the native Sindhis are on the verge of becoming a minority in their OWN motherland! The Mohajirs are coming by the millions and taking over that land, the Sindhis are making more and more noises and there seems to be some positive effect. Eventually they will revolt and demand independence, there is only so much crap people can take, if this doesn't happen then the Sindhis are finished. Racial factors are very important when it comes to protecting one's identity. There are many nations which are no longer here today because they did not take these things seriously. As we speak East Punjab is being flooded by immigrants who are destroying the demographics of the area. The East Punajbis need to take action and fast. Your politicians are sell outs to the Hindis, they even speak Hindi in Punjab! What a tragic shame that is... Truly disgraceful. Brother Rajeev, I am not a PC liberal and nor do I give a damn what people think of me, I would rather people hate me for telling the truth than love me XXXXX. I agree with some of your criticisms but you need to look at the bigger picture, we can waste time trying to be nice to everyone, even when these same people we are nice to, disrespect us and our great culture. My "hate" for "India" is based on my experience with these despicable people, no I am not talking about my Punjabi Hindu and Punjabi Sikh brothers, who I love dearly, I am talking about the XXXXX from the Hindi heartland. It's a long story but I will tell you that they have no sense of empathy for the oppressed, they think they own all of "India" (and Pakistan) and re-write false history to try and justify this, they are all over the internet trying to spread this false propoganda about how all cultures including our own Punjabi culture belongs to this fake XXXXXXX, something so absurd it is laughable. Not only that, they also have the gaul to claim other countries like Afghanistan as something that was once part of this XXXXXXX, mythical, fictional and comical "Akhand Bharat"! XXXXXXXX it is just a British invention, created in the 1830's, I have proof, so I will post it later. As for Baba Nanak, Farid, Kabir etc. and other Punjabi holy people, I remind you that they told us to tell the truth and that the truth is the highest value, all I am doing is following their advice and telling the truth. I agree that some of my words were harsh and not fair on some genuinely good people who are not Punjabis but love Punjab and also those that are Sikhs or Vedists (Brahmins etc.) which are both Punjabi ideologies, so I apologise for offending those people. My post was meant only for the anti-Punjabis out there and they know who they are. I wanted them to know that while most Punjabis will turn a blind eye, there are many that will not, and I am one of them, so they should take note that they are not getting away with the hate they are spreading and their is a reaction which is occuring! Again, apologies if I offended anyone, other than the anti-Punjabis ofcourse who only deserve to be treated with utter contempt! Dear Suman, as usual, more hot air, so I will just ignore your remarks. Brother Dulla Bhatti: "of course when one out rightly refuses to recognise ..of all the things most basic feature of your idenity..your language.....looks down on it ...based on nothing solid but ones ignorance..it is hard to stay calm...." I totally agree! There is only so much crap one can take! Brother Akhilesh, I apologise if I offended anyone but please note the context in which I made my statements. Also, everything I said is true, there are many Punjabis who will not agree with it but I know that there are many Punjabis who will and they will be happy that I say things that others are too PC to say. Obviously, I am just a regular forum member, I do not represent any group, nor do I speak for APNA but I DO represent the views of many oridinary Punjabis, especailly my friends and family, who are sick of all this BS. Also, when I talked about "Punjabi Hitlers", I was talking litterally, I was just saying that there are Punjabis who hate the anti-Punjabis as much as Hitler hated his enemies, maybe this did not come out right so I hope this clarifies my position, although I know some Pakistani Punjabis who have talked like this about their enemies, also I have Punjabi Sikh friends who have talked about "killing all the Hindus" or "destroying India" in revenge for the 1984 attack on the Golden Temple. As for racism, I was only telling the truth, no racism was being implied, I don't think that Punjabis are superior to anyone but we certainly are not second best to anyone either. I don't think we show enough pride in ourselves and that must change. Dear Brother Rashid, I agree to an extent with you but I think there are many West Punjabis who will actually agree with me, race is a very powerful thing, used correctly it can achieve great results for us. A Punjabi is always a Punjabi, it's in his blood, just as a German is always a German. Blood is always thicker than water. When it comes to the crunch, Punjabis will always side with their own than with the outsiders who are our enemies. Brother Sardarz, I was not dividing Punjabis on any lines, I was talking about Punjabis and non-Punjabis. Also, I know that there are relatively "dark" Punjabis as well as fair Punjabis all over Punjab but I was actually genaralizing. Ofcourse there are fair and relatively "dark" Punajbis regardless of religions (Muslims, Sikhs, "Hindus", Christians etc.), castes, sub-cultures, etc. but they are only "dark" relative to eachother (fellow Punjabis), as are "dark" Italians, Greeks, Spanish etc. and not usually as dark/black as the outsiders from "India" who are clearly and easily, racially distinguishable. These are not my opinions but scientific facts. As for Aryanism, I am not into any American white power nonsense but I am into protecting our Punjabi Aryan culture and heritage which the "Indians" are trying to steal and claim as their own! Our Aryan-ness has been scientifically proven, the "Indians" are just jealous that they don't have any great civilisation which is why they are trying to steal/usurp ours. I hope I have clarified things. As for experiencing racism myself, I have actually experienced some racism from whites even though I look Southern European in appreance, my best friend who is a Punjabi Sikh, looks like a White Anglo-Saxon European with brown hair and blue eyes, even he gets racism sometimes when he comes out of a Sikh Temple, they can tell about me when I used to wear traditional clothes on Eid, however, I don't care for whites, they and their opinions are worthless, I don't waste my time on them, I am not one of them, nor do I want to be (unlike most non-Punjabi "Indians" who have big inferiority complexes), I am a proud Punjabi, God made me what I am, who am I to question it? I don't even want to, I glad to be born a Punjabi! So should you all, we are one of the best races in the world, we are very good looking, intelligent, brave, successful etc. and our Punjabi sisters are stunningly beautiful, warm, charasmatic and even worth dying for, we have a lot to be thankful for, Almighty God has been very kind to us! We should be proud to be Punjabis! I certainly am! Regards to you all, Ahmed Khan

Name:	Akhilesh - May 14 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Saeed Ji, enjoyed reading your post on Punjabi publications from Pakistan. The childrens book in Punjabi featuring writings from both sides of the border is very encouraging. Where can i get a copy of that? By the way, it is pathetic that certain Urdu writers will translate Punjabi poetry and prose for the sole purpose of saying that these were originally written in Urdu. In the long run when more people become aware of the Punjabi literature this hate campaign against Punjabi will back-fire on the ones who promote it. It is human nature to get sick and tired of same old desperate lies. DullaBhatti Ji, Yep, agree with you that there is an organized agenda to deprive the Punjabis of their mother-tongue and replace it with Hindi/Urdu. Wont happen though. The best they can hope is to dilute Punjabi somewhat or keep it behind in development. Rupinder Ji, It would seem like a good idea for the Universities in Punjab to take a leading role in development of Punjabi but if the media is to be believed, then Punjab's Universities (India) are all in a pretty abysmal state. Im not even sure if they're interested. Sajid Ji had offered to develop a new website for the Punjabi department at University of Punjab, Lahore, but i dont think they got back in touch with him. There is going to be another Punjabi conference later this month i think in Chandigarh. Lets hope that some concrete commitments are made. Punjabi language and culture will benefit most from active promotion by state/provincial governments. It is they who have the power and resources to really make a difference. Kaurasach Ji, sorry to hear that person has lost touch with his Grandmother. Wish him luck in finding her altho it looks like a difficult task. You made me jump there for a minute when i read that this person belonged to Gujranwala and was a 'Sodhi'. Had read that as 'Soni' for a second...

Name:	Kaurasach - May 14 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Hello West Punjabis, This fellow is looking for his grandmother, and this is the post he leaves on website. If anyone can help him. God bless him. His name is Akaljot I need some help in finding my Grandma, my heart beleives that she is alive and well. This is the story,My Grand Parents used to live in Dhariwal Gujranwala before the 1947 partition of India and Pakistan. My Grand mother had 3 children. She belong to Sodhi Family before she married my Grandfather.Her name is Balbir Kaur she should be in her late 70's or early 80's. Please ........Help me find her. Please.. do pass this message along to any body you know. I believe that in her heart she is trying to find us too. If you have any information or you can help me pass this message............. I will be eternally thankful Please let me know if there is any other way I can pass this message to Sikh in US and Abroad Thank you

Name:	Saeed - May 14 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Paa jee, here is the address of Puncham: Mr. Maqsood Saqib, 11 - Sharaf Mension, Chowk Ganga Ram Hospital, Queens Road, Lahore PH:0099-42-6308265 e-mail address: suchet2001@yahoo.com or monthlypancham@yahoo.com

Name:	DullaBhatti - May 14 2004
E-mail:	dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Saeed ji, Can you post mailing address of Pancham? I have heard lot about before too...can't find its address though.

Name:

DullaBhatti - May 14 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Sukhbir paa'ji thanks. It is interesting to note that "Bhayya" slur in both Punjabs have taken somewhat different tone after paritition. We have to see it in this context....that is how it was mentioned by some West Punjabi posters ealrier...Bhayya in East Punjab is a laborer, poor, no home, very little education..committment to Hindi is least important in his scheme of things...moving to punjab in search of roti kapRa...I won't even count makaan in his wish list...bhayya in West Punjab and pakistan is totally different category as viewed by Punjabis there. He is educated, with most probably upper class background from UP/CP, fully committed to Urdu, willing to use religious and nation card to propagate his committment to his language, high regards for his own background and low regard for Punjabis, carries an confidence and aura of belonging to the elite of past that ruled as mughals...all of above true or false..... as a result forms disproporionate portion of ruling elite of Pakistan compared to its actual numbers. Compared to him Punjabi loving Punjabi from pakistan is most likely mid level education, paindoo background, more secular outlook, pride in his local roots etc...with the exception of few fuedal or elite background people in this category e.g. Chaudharies of gujrat or even Fakhar zaman sahib..no offense.[I love his...ajj phir sanu loRhi da ikk Dulla Bhatti hor, jehRa bhanneiN Dilli de kingray te paahjaR paawe takhat Lahore....reading of this shair was responsible for my login ID]

re Punjabi development..there is not doubt that the fact that it has been medium of education, and language subject in higher level classes in unviersities that it has benefited the language a lot. But the Urdu Hindi onslaught on Punjabi...and many other languages is undeniably there...is bhayya living next door is responsible for it? heck no...it is inherit political setup that has emerged after partition on both sides of the line that is solely responsible for this onslaught....I would say that some aspects of it are certainly organized and meant to be that way. again...Punjabi is not the only victim of this setup..almost every language spoken in the subcontinent is feeling this squeeze.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Name:	Saeed - May 14 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear APNA Mitro, Here are a few books on my table which I received during these three days. 1. International Punjabi Likhaee by Mumtaz Baloch of Jhang. He wrote a wonderful book and it is in three languages Shahmukhi, Gurmukhi and Roman lipi. What a wonderful book! He is very courageous man. I ordered for ten copies. 2. The second book is actual Punjabi writer number of those writers of East and West Punjab who write books for children. It is actually a Punjabi magazine published from Lahore for kids. Its name is 'Pukheroo' by Ashraf Sohail. That is another very good job, which shows brotherhood between Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab or East and West Punjab. It is also a great effort done by Mr. Ashraf Sohail. He gave one page to each writer and also published photo of the writer plus his or her address. There are over 100 writers from East Punjab. The cover is decorated with the photos of Punjabi faces Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus. These are the efforts, which we really need to do at this time. I ordered for 10 books. 3. 'Puncham' (Feb and March 2004) a monthly Punjabi magazine from Lahore edited and published by Maqsood Saqib. Believe me it is world-class literary magazine and there is no any comparison of it with Punjabi or even Urdu literary magazines of Pakistan. It has 200 pages, which carries top class poetry and prose written in Punjabi. Half of the poetry is from East Punjab, it includes the poems of Paash, Surjit Paater, Sukhbir, Nerpinder Ratan, Herbhajan Singh Komal, Kana Singh Pothwaran, Nropmadat. (Sorry if I write wrong spellings). It also includes a serial of Gordial Singh Jee's novel �Annhey GhoRey daa daan�. 4th book is actually a magazine of Muqtadara Qoumi Zuban (National Language Authority) whose Chairman is Fateh Mohammad Malik. NLA published a 450 pages number on the topic "Punjab meyN Urdu". It is full of such material, according to them, which proves that only Urdu and only Urdu language belongs to Punjab. The front page is decorated with Iqbal Kashmiri and Back title page is decorated with the photo of Baba Farid Ganj Shakar with his poem in Urdu to prove that He was the first poet of Urdu. This bunch of lies is published with the funds of the fools and fools don't deserve sympathy, as they are the object of ridicule. Dear friends, we should not just depend on self-pity but we should contribute something for the promotion of our mother tongue. Actions speak lauder than talks

Name:

Sardarz - May 14 2004

E-mail:

dvvdvaq@visto.com

Comments:

Ahmad Khan Sahib.
You asked a question at the end of your post "What do you all think?
Here is my contribution...
You seem to believe in the ARYAN theory,you should travel to both East and West punjabs and see how people of different COLORs and different RELIGIONs proudly call themselves punjabis across the boundries of race and religion.The Mazhbi Sikh,the Mahashaa and the Isaee local labourer's working the Punjabi field's are darker in color and feeble in stature to the landowners, but they are no less punjabi than their fair complexioned brethren, they all share the same language,food and culture. Pls.refrain from dividing punjabis on racial lines,its irrelevent in todays world.

If you believe in Racism,you should be prepared to get the other end of the stick too.
Guess you would feel elated, if you were in a social setting where u are the only non-white male and u find yourself "INVISIBLE" to eyes of the white males.
If not,then you should stop believing in racial theories like ARYANISM etc.

Regards

Name:	kaurasach - May 14 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Dullah Bhatti ji, Thanks for giving hope that "hare patay fir aungay". Par, mainu lagda ki Punjabi thay butay di jaran ch kisay nay jahar rala taa ee. Es kar kay jay khad vagara naee paaee taan mushkil ay kay aglay saal eh mur khiroo gaa. Ikalay haray patay naheen chaahee day naalo naal phal wee lagna chaaheeda aiy. Regarding Maan, Amrinder singh etc. they are selfish politicians. Tay eh gatiya lok wahima tay Bhulekhean day maaray hoye nai. Ehna tay umeed nahin rakhni.

Name:	Rupinder - May 14 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Kiddha Sareoo ( I thought this a secular greeting) I have been away a while, and now that I have just visited, I find that everyone has become unsecular and overly emotional.. Not Good Shani, lokko, sanno apvde ghar�ch, Punjabi boli bollo, te sade baache aa noo encourage kar ro bolan. Samaj koo�ch sitto! Samaj noon siraf ithnaa sikkonaa hai, ta Punjabi is more than Bhangra. Es lee eh, sanno Sahit de review karnnee aa chaidee eis forunm te, te jiddha daa kosh daa project mai do saala pehlaa sharoo kithaa see, ous taaraa, chote je project karee javoo. In terms of my own interest in Punjabi, I have taught myself one of the scripts at home, and am attempting to write ( probably badly) a Punjabi novel ( an extract from which was posted here a few months past). I also like the idea of being a wordsmith. One area of interest that may calm and soothe angry voices is this idea. I am an Accountant by profession, so I thought why not combine with Punjabi Financial Academics and other Punjabi Accountants, and try to evolve new Punjabi equivalents to modern English Business terms, in our field. If everyone did this ( IT people with It, Engineers with Engineering etc) and then submitted their ideas, some of them may be caught on by Universities, and more importantly by the Punjabi Media, writers and poets. If this works, one day the general public may use these words. In the long run Punjabi can catch up with the 21st century and stand alone ( Cynically, even if that only means in the Diaspora) We should help the Universiti departments in India and Pakistan doing this, not deride them What do you think? Fireman could be Aag Vaar or Agniveer or something? Rupinder

Name:	Rupinder - May 14 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	London, UK
Comments:	Why don't people just use this forum for technical language questions and Lieterature reviews?

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 14 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Isb, Pak
Comments:	Akhilesh Ji I cent per cent agree with your views regardin the fear that extrme attitude of minority punjabis would turn the majority of Pak Punjabis hostile towards language. A 'rational' struggle for Punjabi promotion, as said by a renowned Punjabi activitst, is must to yeild some positive results. I will advise my hardliner friends to adopt a sensible way while dealing with this very much sensitive issue. The childish sentiments would not serve any purpose. We are unfortunatley (especially W Punjabis) much deprived as far as Punjabi promotion is concerned and we have a big big task before us to prove that our language is one of the richest world languages (alas we have to prove) so that our brothers adopting Urdu or Hindi could return to their mother tongue. Be cool and stay focussed.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 14 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Im in agreement with some of what Ahmed Ji has said, but, while im all for free speech id request that all racist remarks are kept out of this forum. Its not only a bad reflection on yourself but also on APNA and its other members. Responding to propaganda used against Punjabi language, culture, people etc with racism will only hurt cause of Punjabiyat in the long run. Especially in Pakistan where Punjab has the task of 'holding' together that country. As someone mentioned previously, Punjab province has expressed zero anti-state sentiments. Racism against Pakistan's founder seems anti-state to me. The way i see it, if there arose any anti-state sentiments by a minority of Punjabis the majority might become even more inclined to reject Punjabi, so all the decades of work to promote and safeguard Punjabi in Pakistan would have been in vain. I disagree with the comment that there are plenty of Punjabi "Hitlers". I have not met one Punjabi who would advocate eliminating another race of people or imposing Punjabi on them. Not all the 'Mohajirs' are Urdu-speaking. Those 'Mohajirs' who did not settle in Karachi or Hyderabad etc im sure have largely been assimilated into their new homes. It is when 'ghettoization' occurs that there becomes a problem. Also, you cant call only natives of Pakistan's provinces as 'real' when Pakistani is a nationality. As for sending Mohajirs back to their 'Bharat Mata', what if Indians were to send us Punjabis who migrated from west of the border back to Pakistan? Delhi would certainly lose to a large extent its 'Punjabiness'. DullaBhatti Ji, Surprised to hear that Mann was speaking in Hindi. Saw some interviews awhile back on an Indian news channel. Amrinder Singh was also speaking in Hindi while CM's of other states were speaking in their monther-tongue... Suman Ji, The problem with learning Punjabi through the internet is that it is limited to just becoming familiar with some vocabulary and the script. This is a problem i have encountered even at the Gurdwara, where i was taught the Gurmukhi alphabet, but not the spoken language. Finding a place to learn the spoken language is not as easy as you may think (For adults). The only worth-while place i have found is evening classes held at a University here in London, which will start its new term this September - http://www.soas.ac.uk/languagecentre/other/panjabib.html - And no, i cant learn from my parents otherwise i would have. We can only argue about Punjabi not talk about it. Ps, and yes, if we are to blame an entire people for the neglect of Punjabi then we should blame ourselves also. Using propaganda is one thing, believing in it is another. So who is the real fool? We can blame "two gujuratees" for creating the hatred but it was Punjabis who then looted, raped and butchered eachother. Akhilesh

Name:	Saeed - May 14 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	eh lao fer Mitro, Col. Mohammad Ilyas horaaN dee ik naveeN nikki nazam: kehNdaa jogee raaNjhaa jaaro rab te sab daa saaNjhaa yaaro dil daa sheeshaa saaf je karnaa ishq daa laao maaNjhaa yaaro

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 14 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	Veer Dulla Ji There is absolutely nothing wrong with patjaRh and pIle pattey. Autumn too must exist in its mellow splendour. Life would be too unbearable were it to become one unending spring. So take heart Veer Dulleya: Saabat sidaq te kadam agere, taahiN rabb labHive hoo I see very little point in becoming hyper-reactive and emotionally intolerant just because a certain somebody has written an ignorant article denigrating my mother tongue. I have always believed in the inherent dynamism of our cultural fonts and I don't think an odd article or two or even a systematic campaign against Punjabi can stop its creative, cascading dance. We must ensure that such articles do not push us into reactionary and potentially explosive positions against other communities. Our language is enshrined in the 8th schedule, it is the official language of one state and second language of another. It has a minimum of 7 TV channels and about an equal number of dailies. Its popular music has had almost an irreversible effect on the rest of the Indian music. Even AR Rehman cannot do without an ever-nurturing dependence upon the likes of Sukhwinder and NFAK. Quite a few of the Punjabi words have become part of the campus lingo across the IITs and IIMs and other university campuses. Its popular poets such as Amrita Pritam, Shiv Batalvi and Surjit Pattar are known far and wide. Others such as Puran Singh, Mohan Singh and Harbhajan Singh are placed in the august company of Tagore, Jibnanand Das and Shakti Chattopadhyay. Writers such as Gurdiyal Singh, Prem Prakash and Waryam Sandhu are recognised all over as writers of enormous literary and cultural consequence. Punjabi language is taught in all the schools, colleges and universities of Punjab and is also offered at the post-graduate levels in at least three universities outside Punjab. Punjabis are doing much better than other communities in India and these include what many on this forum so disparagingly call the "bhayyas". What have the "bhayyas" done to us to merit such racist scorn. Linguistic purist should go back to the "Gagam Mai thalu" aarti by Guru Nanak; or his "Yak arz guftam pesite" or the Tenth Master's "Dehi Shiva bar mohi ihai" and see how the Masters have understood the importance of cultural and linguistic exchange. So take heart. I hope your sister is doing fine. OhnaN di chaNgi sehat layi meri rabb agge ardaas hai. Rabb bhali kare Sukhbir

Name:	rajeev - May 14 2004
E-mail:	fakemail@donotspam.com
Comments:	Shahid veer jee Wah wah! Boht vadhiyaa..

Name:	DullaBhatti - May 13 2004
E-mail:	dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Shahid ji, as usual, very good. really enjoyed it.

Name:

DullaBhatti - May 13 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Suman ji....that was my point too that as much as UPites, mohajirs etc are to be blamed so are our own Dhindsas and Cheemas...to some extent people like myself also who would have probably contributed positively if not made the convenient choices we made...... as you know it is very hard to live in this nick of the woods if one started hating or insulting people on every such thing...best rule is respect what others are and get respected...recognise the differences, respect them and live and let live...of course when one out rightly refuses to recognise ..of all the things most basic feature of your idenity..your language.....looks down on it...based on nothing solid but ones ignorance..it is hard to stay calm....darweshaN nu loRhiye rukhaN di zeerand...par ainna zera kisay wirle taaweiN de vass.

There has been some crossing of the boundaries in some posts by the standards of this forum....it sounds very bad....particularly in the politically correct environment that we try to maintain here...but these boundaries are crossed every day on some non-Punjabi controlled forums...Indians and Pakistanis alike...all the time when it comes to Punjabis...so little bit of realty show here is not an end of the world. but I agree with Sukhbir, you and others...better etiquettes should be maintained.

udaas ainna si rukh, ke paun boli,
tooN aweiN patjhaRaN da fikar na kar.
harey patte vi ikk din aawange zaroor,
tooN peelay patteyaN da fikar na kar.
- a friend

Name:	Shahid - May 13 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	thaRa huqqay dee guR guR sunn sann kay meN es thaRay aa beTha waN ethay tay raNg awallay neN pay disday tor k'wallay neN behsaN dee garma garmee eN koee mannda naeeN huT'dharmi eN koee mazhbaN dee koee dharmaN dee koee rusday man-day karmaN dee koee arshaN dee koee farshaN dee koee lagyaN azlee charsaN dee koee kursee dee koee mooh'Ray dee koee chaudharee dee koee chuhRay dee koee mehnay deNda ay lokaaN koee janay chambaR gayaN jokaaN koee pishlee gall sunaNda ay koee agla roLa paNda ay meN sunn sunn hassaN keeh dassaN hun marzee mann dee keeh dassaN meN sooTa lawan aaya saaN hunn hallan nuN naeeN jee karda meN kais thaRay aa beTha waN Shahid

Name:	suman - May 13 2004
E-mail:	suman@thisandthat.com
Comments:	Dulla Bhatti janab. As usual your narratives are vivid, funny and on the nose. You are right about the situation of course, but who does one lay the blame upon and, more importantly, why lay the blame on anyone? Your UPite friend has his views (misguided tho they may be)but what governs the personal actions of the Dhindsas, Cheemas and any other Punjabi? Why did the Khanna choose to speak in Punjabi? To be infuriated about an issue is one thing, to go around cursing and bad mouthing a group or community is quite another matter. To add to it an expression of violent hatred with references to Punjabi Hitlers ought to raise some red flags in our minds. The Punjabi diaspora, with the help of the internet, has managed to create a vibrant, inclusive, virtual Punjab. One that is without geographical borders. Why drag them in here?

Name:

rajeev - May 13 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Untitled Document

Dear Ahmed Khan sahib

Wah wah! Your posts about Punjabiat were truly touching. Fallacious, disrespectful, vituperative and totally misplaced, but sincere. I think we will get along well!

O veera, how did this much hatred blossom for everything "Indian"? You trashed Mohajirs, Gujratis, Hindus, Indians in just one breath. Infact, now that you have so kindly shed light on the plight of poor Tamilians, Assamese, Nagas, Kashmiris, Bengalis(and may I add Marathis, Keralites in the list-- just for fun), I think that Indian Government should definitely disintegrate into 500 odd princely states and undo the British invention called "India". Balle o Balle! And oh, oh, oh Sindhis, Balochs and Pathans are of course very good and devout people so they are okay. It is the Hindus, no no, it is the Indians that are the causing this. You know a "latest" study by a "leading research group" has proved that "Hinduism" is the real culprit behind Ozone layer thingy.

After some thought, the only thing that I could come up was my feeble attempt at sarcasm. Because, where should I start? You say "good riddance" to Bengalis, and declare them "rubbish", you call the "non-aryans"-- "black, weak, thin, unattractive".. GASP! I am only reproducing what you wrote, and feel like barfing! This hate mongering has to stop. How can all the "Indians" be responsible for the grave accusations that you are levelling against them. We have to be proud of our language and culture but that does not mean trashing others like this.

With this kind of hate speech you are maligning what our gurus and fakirs preached. Guru Nanak Dev jee wrote most of his bani in Khadee Hindi, so do you want to disown him too? Sant Kabir jee wrote in Khadee Hindi, so he has to be evil and scheming does'nt he?. Most of the young Punjabi speaking kids can barely understand Sri Guru Granth Saheb and you would be amazed how easy it comes to those same "evil hindi speaking, black and unattractive" kids from the plains who speak that language every day. Nanak bhajans to this date find immense popularity in all these "evil" places.

I guess "ajkal dee hawaa hee aidaan dee chal rahee hai". There is so much propoganda that it is unimaginable!

Take something as pure as Sikhi. Nirankaris, Nihangs, Namdharis, Akalis just to name a few all are spreading their own "true" gospel. I read an article where some one is saying that "Dasam Granth" was not written by Guru Gobind Singh jee because it has Hindu Mythology in it, some say "Bachittar Natak" was an add on and not an original composition of the Guru. And this in a short span of 300 years! Whats next, taking Ram out of the Bani becuase it is "Hindu".

Veer Ahmed Khan, every one is outraged at that article but what you have done is shown that at heart you are as dark as the propogandist. This is totally non-Punjabi. Jawaani da josh haigaa hai, I know par jaraa hosh naal janaab. Propoganda has to be answered properly and systematically like Safir saheb, Sukhbir jee, Saeed saheb etc. have been doing. The ground roots awareness that this august forum is spreading is not inconsequential.

Also, I remember those times when Dr.Zaki or Saeed Saab would post a Geet or Kaafi and every body will take its "russ".. Now a days every argument starts and ends with a pissing contest.
Baba Bulley Shah says
"baaki gallaan sab gallariyaan, ik allah allah di gal,
kuj rolaa payiaa aalamaa, kuj kitaabaan paayaa jhall"

Buraa naa manaana jae koi galti hoi hove tae..

Sat Sri Akal

Name:

DullaBhatti - May 13 2004

E-mail:

dullbhatti47@yahoo.com

Comments:

I don't watch TV much these days...Indian TV even less. Only chance I get to see ZTV, PTV and some other desi channels is when I visit one of my relatives once a month who have all of them on dish...which I think is chori di..par chalo sanu ki... It is like a eye opening experience for me to see some of the images, programming and behaviour exhibited on these programs.

about 2 /3 weeks ago I saw a report in Punjabi KhabraN of ZTV on elections in Punjab. Focus was constituency of Sangrur. They interviwed 3 candidates. Sukhdev Singh Dhindsa, Simranjit S Mann and Arvind Khanna. So reporter asks Dhindsa something and Dhindsa sahib goes off in funny Hindi expressing his views on the election campaign. The reporter asks Mann the same question..Mann Sahib even looked more funny...speaking his funny Hindi while trying to stand up his muchh every few seconds. last was Arvind Khanna...a younger local politician..sitting on a conference table with some workers..he spoke in such a chaste Punjabi .....ji eh mukabla koi tikona nai ay....Mann sahib bahut pichhay ne..mukabla sidha mere te Dhindsa sahib vichaale ay baki kehn jo koi marzi kahi jaawe.

Past weekend I saw the same program again..this time administration of elections in Punjab. a sardar ji in beautiful pink turban, beard tucked in, long muchhaaN...this was Chief election commissioner of Punjab Mr Cheema..certainly addressing Punjabi people on progress of election intzaam.....hum ne sabh bandobast kar liye hain election ke...humaara paryatan hoga ke koi kisi kisam ki hinsak vardaat na ho..waghiara waghiara....

and I am going like..sardar sahib aah aiddee waddi pagg te daahRi te ainna zor kehRay kamm lai layea je.. ehnu kehnday ne apnay paireeN kohaRa maarna.

A UPite colleague of mine while discussing Punjabi language with me was surprised on some things...he was surprised that there is actually poetry..other than bhangra in Punjabi...and oldest poems are atleast 6 hundred years old...but that did not effect his views...he argued that Rajasthani is considered a dialect of Hindi and so is Punjabi. His view is that it is only a matter of time that Punjabi will given a dialect status and fully absorbed into Hindi.

His view or more like his UPite wish bothers me a lot...infuriates me but what can I do..Mr Dhindsa, Mr Mann, Mr Cheema and scores others are working hard to fulfull my colleague's wishes.

sahiyoN nai asiN nainna de aakhay laggay.....

Name:	kaurasach - May 13 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	I think I know where Ahmed Khan is coming from. And Suman, I already posted a few posts below that we are to fault. The reason Bahias are taking over is that Punjabis today are short sighted and selfish inspired by materialism only. Punjabi Nationalism and pride which was at peak during freedom struggle is gone today. It is easy to kill a diseased or an ill organism. Punjab is that ill today. And the 'foreigners' are taking advantage. This happens a lot. Whenever a Pbi sees a Bhaia, he starts talking in 'tutee' hindi. Do Americans, Chinese, Tamils speak to us in Punjabi when we visit them or work in their countries? We are bringing this 'Korh" or 'Lahnat" on us overselves.

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 13 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Suman: "I found Ahmad Khans post to be poisonous, ignorant and subversive. If we are to have any hope for a bright future for Punjabi, then this is exactly the kind of ideology that we must abhor." This sounds like a lot of hot air, can you please be specific, where have I said anything "poisonous, ignorant and subversive", which ideology am I promoting which you find so offensive? If you cannot answer this simple question then it proves that what you are saying is all hot air (a.k.a. BS) and should be ignored. Love of one's motherland and race is not a crime but something that should be encouraged and promoted... Thanks, AK

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 13 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Brother Farhat Khan said: "To Ahmad Sahib, I really appreciate your zeal and agree with you ,however punjabis are too human to compared to the Third Reich." Brother, I am a very compassionate person but I am getting really pised off by these Mohajirs, I don't see Punjabis going to the Hindi heartland and imposing our culture on them, so why do they do it to us? My grandfather and father read the article and were very angry at how Punjabis can just sit there and ignore an attack on their mother tongue which is essentially an attack on our race. I don't know about Pakistan as I have only ever gone there for holidays but in America we are proud of who were are, the US encourages racial/ethnic pride as well as national pride. My father said that Pakistan is run by weak, corrupt and self hating people, only interested in their own pockets and wealth. This needs to change. "In addition there is nothing wrong with learning or appreciating urdu or any other language. I am a very proud punjabi but I have also been taught to respect other cultures."* Me too brother, but what shall we do? Just sit back and take it when a low life foreigner Mohajir spits on our faces in our OWN motherland? How long will we live like slaves to outsiders? Why do we let others come in to our "house"? All Punjabis are one big family, we should never let others tell us what to do. When will we take our country back and be incharge of our own destiny and that of our 5000 year old motherland? Nationlaism may be the only answer. "What the non punjabis need to understand is that even in urdu Punjab was always on the fore front. Some of the most illustrious authors and poets are Punjabis. Be well, Farhat." Brother, low life people never understand, you are a kind and loving person, they will take advantage of this, these people must be dealt with the only way they know how and that is to attack them back, give them a taste of their own medicene, infact Punjabis genarally have big hearts which is why they get poisioned by outsiders so often, many times we have even turned on eachother, the madeness of 1947 was created by the two "great" fathers, both of whom were outsider Gujuratis, another useless non-Punjabi "Indian" race... I say, let us be heard, let's cut all the political correctness and liberal BS now and tell the truth how it is, let's take action now! Ahmed Khan

Name:	1 - May 13 2004
E-mail:	1@1.com
Comments:	Test Test

Name:

suman - May 13 2004

E-mail:

suman@thisandthat.com

Comments:

The list of reasons why some Punjabis do not speak and/or learn their language has become surreal. I will not include the unpleasant adjectives that have prefaced each statement.

It's the Pakistani government.

It's the Indian government.

It's the Indians.

It's the Hindus.

Its my fathers fault.

It's the fault of the Mohajirs.

The Biharis.

Religion.

The British.

Funnily enough, not a single one of these overheated people have ever said 'Maybe it is my fault. Maybe I should stop spouting hate and just get up and learn Punjabi'. The tools to learn it are available in Gurmukhi, Devnagari, Roman and Shahmukhi - in both print and on the web so there is no excuse.

I found Ahmad Khans post to be poisonous, ignorant and subversive. If we are to have any hope for a bright future for Punjabi, then this is exactly the kind of ideology that we must abhor.

Name:	kaurasach - May 13 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Wahwa Chir Hoya aseen Akhaan post karne shooroo kitay see. Hun kee ho gaya. Akhaan muk gaye jaan josh muk gaya? Sup day moonh ch korh kirli Naa khaan joga naa chadan joga

Name:	farhat khan - May 13 2004
E-mail:	farhakhan5@hotmail.com
Location:	chicago, il USA
Comments:	Bajwa ji, I agree with you about fake national and religous unity. Unfortunatley the Punjabis fell for this political and manipulative ploy once and are still suffering. Their cultural and literary heritage is not recognized and they have to justify their language as a legitimate language. By this time it should be clear to every one that religion is not the glue that binds,e.g Bangladesh. Language and common cultural traditions on the other hand are intrinsic and the life line of any civilization,cut off the life line and the culture will die. To Ahmad Sahib, I really appreciate your zeal and agree with you ,however punjabis are too human to compared to the Third Reich.In addition there is nothing wrong with learning or appreciating urdu or any other language. I am a very proud punjabi but I have also been taught to respect other cultures. What the non punjabis need to understand is that even in urdu Punjab was always on the fore front. Some of the most illustrious authors and poets are Punjabis. Be well, Farhat.

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 13 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:	Here is another telegraphic outburst for the kind attention of the "god of all": The proponents of Cultural Nationalism bite dust as the Indian electorate give them a resounding defeat at the hustings the results for which are out today. Even Modis and Togadias couldn't save the day for them. The BJP is trounced; the Shiv Sena decimated. And, as always, the Punjabis scored quite a few self-goals in the bargain in the granary of India. And yet we speak of cultural / linguisitic imperialism and hegemonic conspiracy. Sukhbir

Name:	Jatinder Singh Bajwa - May 13 2004
E-mail:	bajwa_thaparian@yahoo.co.in
Location:	ludhiana, Punjab India
Comments:	i am jast astonished to know that our west punjabi brothers have neglected their mother tongue PUNJABI for the sake of fake national and religious unity. In India, hindi has been imposed on us but we have not forgotten our mother tongue. ask any East Punjabi - whether sikh,hindu,muslim or christian -he will say that he is studying hindi under compulsion -- from the core of our heart we love PUNJABI. yaar, like us in india , you have a great say in politics & military in Pakistan.please introduce Punjabi in academic curriculum otherwise our future generations will not forgive us for neglecting our rich Punjabi language. If you need help for this purpose , we are ready on the other sider of border to help our brothers to save our MOTHER... SAT SRI AKAL .. NAMASTE .. KHUDA AAFIS

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 13 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	It was all nice and paragraphed but the forum has made it all stick together! Anyway, it's still readable at least.

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 13 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Hi Punjabi bro's/sisters, I posted this letter on the comments page on the Pak Tribune story about the Urdu/Punjabi contreversy story, it's hard hitting and the truth, I bet a million dollars they ain't never gonna publish it! Have a read: My letter to Pak Tribune: Hi, I thank you a lot for this excellent article, I am a PROUD American Pakistani Punjabi and can tell you that most Punajbis in the west are sick and tired of this Mohajir Urdu BS! They are becoming more racist and pis*ed off everyday. What I and many Pakistani Punajbis are sick of are the Mohajirs/Urdu speaking foreigners from UP/Bihar/MP etc., who we wrongly let settle in OUR land, who try and force their crazy, false and nutcase ideology on to Punjabis, we all know the truth about why they want to do this, it is because they are afraid of losing their place in Pakistan, a country to which they have no claims, ties, or bonds, whether they be racial, linguistic, cultural or otherwise. I am very angry with the lies these people are spreading, especially the crap about Urdu (Persian script Hindi from the Hindi heartland in fake "India") being the mother tongue of Punjab, just like their Hindi heartland BJP brothers who impose their false ideology on to the Kashmiris, East Punjabis, Nagaland people, Tamils, Assamese and many others who do not want to be part of that fraud British invention called "India"! As for Islam, I fail to see how Urdu has anything to do with Islam, if anything, only Arabic has a direct link to Islam, these are just more typical Mohajir tactics, they use religion in order to justify their place in Pakistan, which is a very weak case, otherwise we should let all the 1 billion Muslims in to Pakistan, no matter where they come from! Sorry but their arguments make no sense. My message is simple, the two nation theory is history, no longer relevant, it is the reality of NOW that counts, we only used it to get freedom for our own motherland, Punjab, we did not want to be slaves of the Hindi "Hindus" of the Hindi heartland like our East Punjabi brothers. If the Mohajirs wish to live peacefully in Pakistan then they must respect the NATIVE Punjabis and learn our language, not try and impose their own! My grandfather and father HAD TO learn English when they went to the UK and USA, they did not start making ridiculous demands that Americans should learn Punjabi! OK, so Urdu is the national language of Pakistan, this is only "important" as it helps to unify the ethnic groups. The idea of a unifying language is good but does not mean that the language used should be Urdu. English is a global language, far more important than Urdu, very useful for Pakistanis who want to do business with the rich west and the world genarally. I personally think that Mohajirs should learn Punjabi, as they are the immigrants, this happens everywhere in the world, immigrants learn the native tounge, not the other way round, I don't see why Punjabis are so politically correct/liberal when it comes to giving in to the demands of these foreigners. I think enough is enough, no more crap, these guys must learn to integrate or leave. Eventually, Punjabis are going to become sick of this nonsense and start taking direct action. It's such a crazy situation, we are 55% of the population, the majority, we are the one's in power, yet we put up with so much crap! Would the English ever let any one tell them what to do regarding their language and culture? Would the Germans!? Germans have already shown what they can do when pushed by foreigners and it is not good! Punjabis may eventually crack and unleash hell for their antagonisers, there are plenty of Punjabi "Hitlers" around, it is already happening here in the west. We, the tall, fair, attractive, brave, strong, intelligent, great Punjabi Aryans, the builders of the great and glorious Aryan civilisations, have nothing to do with these small, dark/black, weak, unattractive, inferiority complexed, ashamed of their "Indian-ness", non-Aryan, Dravidian Mohajirs, whom we never claim as are own, nor do we want to, same is true for the Bangladeshis, I am glad that they left in 1971, they are not racially, culturally or linguistically compatible with the people of Pakistan, they have nothing to do with us and we have nothing to do with them, good riddance to bad rubbish! Punjabis get on great with most other REAL Pakistanis like Pathans, Baluchis, Sindhis etc. We have a great respect for their culture and they for ours, unlike these Mohajir outsiders who want to impose their inferior "Indian" culture on everyone else under the guise of "national unity", something that we can all see right through, they are fooling no one except themselves. The religious "argument" is a joke and makes no sense, the Mohajirs are running scared, doing their best to lie and cheat, as their Hindi brothers do across the border, it's the only thing they know, which is why I advocate that they go back to their "Bharat Mata" as they have no place in Pakistan! Finally, hear this from a REAL PUNJABI and hear it well, Punjabi IS the ONLY mother tounge of Punjab and Punjabis, always has been, always will be! END OF STORY! Ahmed Khan ----- What do you all think?

Name:	Akhilesh - May 13 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Good to see the propaganda articles in favor of Urdu get a fitting response to their false and incorrect claims. Well done, I noticed a comment regarding development of Shahmukhi script. Just how far as this come along?

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 13 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Isb, Pak
Comments:	A nice article by Dr Muhammad Afzal Shahid 'Urdu Punjabi Controversy' on Paktribune.com http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=64791

Name:	Saeed - May 13 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Safir Rammah Jee's very good letter to the editor (The Dawn, 13th May, 2004) is quite well placed. Here is the link:http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/13/letted.htm#1 Urdu as Punjab's mother tongue The article "Urdu as Punjab's mother tongue" by Mushir Anwar (Dawn, May 7) attempts to frame the demand of Punjabi writers and intellectuals for the introduction of Punjabi as medium of education in Punjab's schools in terms that portray it as a conspiracy against Muslims, Islamic culture, the Holy Quran and Islam. According to the claims of Fateh Mohammad Malik as referred to in Mushir Anwar's article, adoption of Punjabi, "...could only be a folly or a conspiracy against the Muslims... once Punjabi had been introduced as a medium of instruction, it would be heavily Sanskritized... and then its Quranic script will be changed to Gurmukhi. That would ultimately... divest it of its Islamic identity... the Muslims of the Punjab would slowly but certainly lose all contact with the wellsprings of their culture." These negative sound bites present Punjabi language as the mother of all evils. They can easily be ignored as a laughing matter except for the fact that besides being an attempt to reduce the serious debate on language policy in Punjab to a spitting match, these ideas are being promoted by a few notable Urdu writers. Even more laughable than the irrational fear of Sanskrit and Gurmukhi, obviously based on a total ignorance of robust West Punjabi literature, is the astonishing hypothesis that since Punjabi writers have made some contributions to Urdu literature, just as one must point out they did when Persian was the official language, all 80 or so million West Punjabis should disown Punjabi. Nothing can justify replacing a living language with another, especially Punjabi which is among the most viable languages in the world based on all pertinent criteria that are used to judge the viability of a language, including different stages of its natural development over more than two thousand years, number of native speakers - 120 million worldwide - vastness and depth of vocabulary, richness and variety of literature and much more. Depriving schoolchildren from learning their mother tongue amounts to breaking a vital link to their rich heritage through deliberate social engineering. The diverse and unique living experience of humankind is codified in the diverse languages they speak, and loss of any language is a loss for all of us, as Marianne Mithum noted in her recent survey of North American Indian languages: "The loss of a language represents a definitive separation of a people from their heritage. It also represents an irreparable loss for us all, the loss of opportunities to glimpse alternative ways of making sense of the human experience... "When language disappears, the most intimate aspects of culture can disappear as well: fundamental ways of organizing experience into concepts, of relating ideas to each other, of interacting with other people. The most conscious genres of verbal art are usually lost as well: traditional rituals, oratory, myth, legend, even humour." It is with this desire to preserve their language, culture and heritage that all Punjabi activists and writers have agreed on a single platform: Punjabi must be used as medium of instructions in Punjab's schools, while Urdu should be taught as a second language and should continue as the national language of Pakistan. Regarding the most ridiculous idea referred to in the article that Punjabi is somehow incompatible with Islam, I invite the readers to read the Punjabi translation of the Holy Quran by Sharif Kunjahi (http://www.apnaorg.com/quran/) to judge for themselves that Urdu doesn't have a monopoly on Islam, and the Holy Quran can be translated into Punjabi as beautifully, magnificently and accurately as in any other language of the world. SAFIR RAMMAH JEE, Bravo.

Name:	Saeed - May 12 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Akhilesh Jee, Here is the link: http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2004-weekly/nos-09-05-2004/lit.htm

Name:	kaurasach - May 12 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Another reason Punjabi is not doing well is the lack of Patron system. Historically in India, it is still frequent in US where rich donate millions to institutions and causes. In the past, Rajas, Jagirdars, and other prominent members of the society provided scholarship to writers, poets, musicians. That is how the musicians and style like the Patiala Gharana survuved. Nowadays it is all political or policy contributions few takers for the arts' cause. Rich fetch out millions to appease politicians and bureaucrats, but make foolish rebukes when a genuine cause is concerned.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 12 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Sure it was an outburst. So much so that you posted it twice (second time adding something else). Ok forget that. If there is something factually wrong in what i post then please feel obliged to correct it as afterall we all are here to learn from one another. I give out opinions which i form through experience, word of mouth, and what i read. It is the last two that are not going to be entirely accurate (some perhaps not even close) so i am open to and will appreciate any corrections as i am always after the truth and facts... Especially here as this is the only net forum i take seriously and actually respect all members whether i have met you or not. Thanks,

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 12 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
Comments:	How I wish you learned to distinguish between one line remonstration by me (for which I unconditionally apologised when I realized the linguistic faux pas I made) and a long-winded collation of inaccurate details which you invariably get into. Outburst - that's the word you use for my one liner - belongs in a very different linguistic sub-genre. I do not have the time otherwise I would have taken all your points one by one and shown them to be based on data which is to put it mildly false. Sukhbir

Name:	Akhilesh - May 12 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Rupinder Ji, I agree with your post but just want to point out that for 'inventing' new words it will take some years (decades even) of these being in use before they are officially recognized or accepted. Saeed Ji, Can you please send me a link for the review you posted 'An English history of Punjabi literature'. Rashid Ji, thanks for the reply. Perhaps KhabraN group does not yet see as big a market in serious news as they do in commercial reports. Sukhbir Sahib, Let me clarify a couple of things. First of all, Punjabis have managed to migrate abroad because of job availability and meeting the required standards/qualifications to settle and work abroad. The door is not left open to just any old "Tom, Dick and Harry". Also, to move abroad, you go through immigration/screening process. Are checks made to prevent criminals and other undesirables from importing themselves into Punjab? The example of Bal Thakcery is to just point out that Punjab state is not alone in facing onslaught of Hindi and mass-influx of migrants from Hindustani states. Now, if figures given out by the Dal Khalsa and Shiromani Akali Dal (A) are to be believed, then "15 lakh Punjabis are unemployed in the state whereas 13 lakh migrants are employed". Doesnt look to me like there is a whole lot of job availabilty which would require wooing workers from outside when 1.5 million natives are unemployed. Brings me then to what you said regarding dependency on migrant labour for tilling the land. Why i say politicians in East Punjab are a joke and blemish on democracy, this is one reason. If migrant workers are willing to accept lower wages for longer hours then it is not surprising they find work whereas locals do not. However, this is simply illegal (Well, i hope in India it is anyway). Strict action and enforcement of the law should be taken. But since no one gives a damn and are too busy trying to fill their own pockets, engage in caste/religious favortism and delivering broken promises the problem only mushrooms itself. What else is highly illegal is the setting up of jhuggis and other dwellings on someone else's property. If you cannot find permanent residence and do not have the financial means to support yourself, you stay put and dont move. This is how it is everywhere in the World, why should it be different in India? You cant afford to move, then dont. It is unfortunate that Punjab is still plagued with all this caste crap. Instead of working to eliminate this, the governments encourage it by handing out "reservations" and drafting papers on "scheduled and backwards castes". Here we have learned that the best man/woman gets the job, not the "lowest Hindu".. Would there be a problem in Punjab if they enforced minimum wage, maximum workig hours per day (specific to types of job), employee welfare/standards in the work-place, and scrap official distinctions on "caste" making discrimination an offence? Sadly, they'd rather turn a blind eye, allow locals to suffer unemployed, allow constructions of shanty-towns housing thousands of illegal settlers, fail to check if criminals are entering the state etc, Would incidents like what occrred in Talhan, Jalandhar last year have occurred? What was so pathetic about this incident is that all involved were Sikhs and revolved around 'control of a Gurdwara'. This is what i find contrary to the spirit of Guru Nanak Dev... I bring this up because you yourself have made an outburst against a comment of mine once calling it "castist" when i happened to have been talking about shoes and not "Jatt" females. Just another example of hidden loyalty to caste the way i see it, subconsciously seeing something where nothing exists.. In relation to the above, many Punjabis do not find work because of their "caste" is the impression i get, which is why i have diverted the topic slightly. Anyway, i hope Punjabis used the elections to vote wisely. Id have voted for Simranjit Singh Mann if i lived in Punjab. SAD (A) party manifesto seemed to make the best case for safeguarding the interests of Punjab and the Punjabis. Past ideology does not alarm me. Regarding your comments on Maharashtra, sorry i cant comment back as i have not visited that state or even met a native of it. The only people i have met from the state were Bhaiyas who reside in Bombay. Finally, im not suggesting everyone be banned from Punjab, but there should be limits, like everywhere else all around the World. (My opinion) Akhilesh

Name:	Sukhbir Garewal - May 11 2004
E-mail:	sugrewal@hotmail.com
Comments:	It will indeed be a sad day for the proponents of Punjabi culture to cite fascists like Balasaheb Thackeray (and, may I add, by implication other luminaries such as Narendra Modi, Guru Golwalker of the RSS, Le Pen, E Powell, Adolf Hitler...) as models to emulate in their relentless pursuit of a detoxified Punjabi "utopia". It is even sadder to note that such remarks are made by people who have themselves been the "beneficiaries"(?) of the diasporic move the Punjabis so enthusiastically made in the mid-20th century and have not ceased to make ever since. Such enthusiastic cultural spin doctors need to know that Punjab's agro-economy - and this is but one example from East Punjab - is heavily dependent upon the "Bhayya" agricultural labour it so exploitatively deploys in its fields year after year. You may refer to the archives of the Economic and Political Weekly of India to pore over disturbing details. They also conveniently forget that for every 1000 rs invested in a metropolitan city like Bombay, the Maharashtrian contribution is not even 50 rs. If the Bihari money transferred out of the state to big cities like Bombay via the agency of the national and multi-national banks continues unabated, how can you stop the migration of its people to these centres of parasitic affluence. One has to be a wee bit too perverse to "allow" only one kind of economic traffic and not the other. Sukhbir

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 11 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Isb, Pak
Comments:	Akhilesh Ji Bhulekha and LehraN are not as much popular papers as compared to new one KhabraN as KhabraN has been launched by a strong party having strong journalistic background. KhabraN is going quite good in providing news and goog language as Bhulekha in its early days did. But the concerning thing with KhabraN is that the group is too commercial to serve any serious purpose but we are bound to keep our hopes alive with this paper.

Name:	Saeed - May 11 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	APNA Mitro, Very comprehensive and to the point letter by S U KHAN from Lahore on Urdu Punjabi controversy fingered by Fateh M. Malik and Mashir Anwar. Just please go through it: Urdu as Punjab's mother tongue This is with reference to the Literary round-up: Urdu as Punjab's mother tongue by Mushir Anwar published on May 7. It is not Arminder Singh but many Punjabi writers, intellectuals and teachers including Faiz Ahmad Faiz, Ahmad Nadeem Qasmi, Hameed Nizami, Prof Sirajuddin, Dr Muhammad Ajmal and Safdar Mir who have introduction of Punjabi as the medium of instruction at the primary level since the 1960s. They have demanded that Urdu should be replaced by Punjabi at the primary level (see Education Policy Number of monthly Punjabi Adab). This did not mean degrading the national language but only that the mother tongue can better serve as the medium of instruction during the early stages of education. What Fateh Muhammad Malik and Mr Mushir Anwar want to suggest is that Punjabi is an underdeveloped form of Urdu or it is just a dialect of Urdu. If Urdu is a developed form of Punjabi, why are Baba Farid, Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah not included in the Urdu textbooks being taught in Punjab and elsewhere? If the older version of Urdu (Deccani) has been made part of Urdu teachings, why are Heer Waris Shah and Kafian Shah Hussain not treated as a part of Urdu literature? Punjabi literature was created much before Wali Deccani, Mirza Sauda, Ghalib and Insha. Shah Husain and Waris Shah were senior to them. Dr Tariq Rahman in his article 'The Lingo Power', published on March 21, said: "The major languages, according to the census of 1981 are: Punjabi (spoken 44.15 per cent); Pushto (15.42) Sindhi (14.10) Urdu (7.57); Seraiki (10.53); Balochi (3.57) and others (4.66). Since Seraiki, Punjabi, Hindko, Potohari, Pahari, etc. are mutually intelligible, they may be regarded as constituting the varieties of a great language spread out from the cities of the NWFP up to Delhi." S. U. KHAN Lahore Sameer Jee, I could not understand your anger with me rather I feel sad. Your such hot post is on what ground please, personal or intellectual? If I was wrong on any point you can guide me gently or you can tell me politely. I have great regard for you and I acknowlede that I learn a lot from your posts too. Best Wishes. The news, Lahore of Sunday published a review By Kazy Javed A word about letters An English history of Punjabi literature Dr Jeevan Singh Deol's great grandfather left Punjab in the early years of the past century to settle in Canada. Deol was born and brought up there. He now teaches modern South Asian history, South Asian religions as well as medieval Hindi and Punjabi literature at St John's College of Cambridge University. With notable academic accomplishments to his credit, he also advises the Victoria and Albert Museum of London on heritage and cultural issues relating to Sikhs. His paper on Sex, Social Critique and the Female Figures in Waris Shah's Hir -- published in the March 2002 issue of Modern Asian Studies -- carried many insights and new ideas that are greatly instrumental in providing an in-depth contemporary understanding of Waris Shah's work. Dr Jeevan Singh Deol was in Lahore last month. Mehtab of the Punjab Lok Sujag -- who organized a wonderfully enjoyable and educative Lok Boli Mela at Deepalpur in February this year -- arranged a conversazione for him in collaboration with monthly Pancham and Lok Boli Sangat. It was attended by a number of Punjabi writers, intellectuals and activists. Shafqat Tanvir Mirza, president of Pakistan Punjabi Adabi Board and a noted columnist, was there. Raja Risalu -- who has been serving the Punjabi cause for more than 50 years and is presently secretary of the Punjabi Board -- was there, too. Ahmad Salim -- who is being much talked about for a report on curriculum and textbook reforms that he compiled together with Dr A H Nayyar of the Physics Department of the Quaid-e-Azam University -- came from Islamabad to attend the event. Mushtaq Kanwal who as secretary of World Punjabi Conference is busy in making arrangements for taking a 150-strong literary delegation to Chandigarh in May for the eleventh international Punjabi conference, was also seen there. Faiza and Maqsood Saqib who together edit the arguably best Punjabi language literary magazine Pancham and Saeed Bhutta who teaches at the Punjab University's Punjabi Department were among other participants. Dr Jeevan Singh Deol rightly lamented the fact that though Punjabi literature has a long history spread over many centuries and has produced some world-class poets, no proper history of Punjabi literature has been written. Apparently, there is no dearth of volumes which their authors claim to have written on this subject. But the truth of the matter is that they are not histories in the contemporary sense of the word: They are only descriptive. Some of them have been written in Punjabi while others are in English. The list of their authors include Kartar Singh Dugal, Dr Mohan Singh Deewana, Dr Banarsi Das Jaine, Dr Jaspeer Singh Ahlowalia, Baba Budh Singh, Maula Buksh Kushta, Dr Ahmad Hussain Qiladari and Dr Hamidullah Shah. All these authors have worked diligently. They have provided us with a wealth of matter on this subject. It is, therefore, now easier to write a history of our literary heritage. But it has to be written in English. This is not because of any inherent defect of the Punjabi language but because of the Punjabi people who have miserably failed to develop their language to carry the weight of modern scholarship. Do we have the scholars who can do this job? Two eminent Punjabi intellectuals, Syed Sibte Hasan and Shafqat Tanvir Mirza, answer the question in the affirmative. However, I find it hard to agree with them. The tale of two books May 3 marked the World Press Freedom Day and I spent a part of it in reading Urdu translation of the best known book on our journalism. Titled Sahafat Paband-e-Silasal, it has recently been reprinted by the Pakistan Study Center of Karachi University. The original book, Press in Chains, was first published in 1986 and has been widely read within and outside the country. By giving a detailed and well-documented account of the official restrictions the press in Pakistan has been subjected to, it has won international notice and respect for its author, Zamir Niazi. Another book that I recently went through reminds me of Khalil Jibran who is perhaps the most read foreign writer in our country. All his books have been translated into Urdu and have been published many a time by various publishers. Recently Haider Javed Syed, a noted columnist, compiled these translations in one big volume which is published by Fiction House, Lahore under the title Kulliyat-e-Khalil Jibran. It is strange to note that despite fabulous popularity of Khalil Jibran, nothing has been ever written or translated about his life and personality. Now Nigarshat Publishers have brought out Urdu translation of his biography written by Sohail Bushrani and Jo Jeenics. It is translated by Muhammad Asim Butt, the young scholar who earlier rendered two books of Kafka and Camus into Urdu. Having gone through the biography -- Khalil Jibran: Dastan-e-Hayat -- my impression is that it is more interesting than many of his pieces. The man who was a library Daniel George, author of A Book of Characters, gives the following interesting account of Antonio da Magliabecchi of the 18th century who was known as the Glutton of Literature. "Magliabecchi's character is singular: for though his life was wholly passed in libraries, being librarian to the Duke of Tuscany, he never wrote himself... His habits of life were uniform. Ever among his books, he troubled himself with no other concerns whatever; and the only interest he appeared to take for any living thing was his spiders; for whom, while sitting among his literary piles, he affected great sympathy; and perhaps in contempt for those whose curiosity appeared impertinent, he frequently cried out 'to take care not to hurt his spiders'... "He ate on his books, he slept on his books, and quitted them as rarely as possible... Nothing could be more simpler than his mode of life; a few eggs, a little bread, and some water, were his ordinary food. His dress was as cynical as his repasts. A black doublet, which descended to his knees; an old patched black cloak; an amorphous hat, very much worn, and the edges ragged; a large neckcloth of coarse cloth, begrimed with snuff; a dirty shirt, which he always wore as long as it lasted, and which the broken elbows of his doublet did not conceal; and to finish this inventory, a pair of ruffles which did not belong to the shirt. Let me not forget another circumstance; to warm his hands, he generally had a stove with fire fastened to his arms, so that the clothes were generally singed and burnt, and his hands scorched. He had nothing otherwise remarkable about him. To literary men he was extremely affable, and a cynic only to the eye. "Hearne has this to say of Magliabecchi: 'Nobody had such a memory for books. He was a common repertory. If anyone wanted to know what books were written upon any subject, he could tell immediately. He wore no shirt, and lived upon pudding and hard eggs.'"

Name:	Rupinder Dhillon - May 11 2004
E-mail:	rupinder.dhillon@edfenergy.com
Location:	Crawley, Sussex, UK
Comments:	Salam, Sat Sri Akaal and Pranaam everyone. I have recently seen a program on television that proves my theory on inventing new words is valid. It depicted how the OED was first published. It will take too long to describe here, but over 20 years in the late 1800�s people throughout the whole of the UK were asked to send in any words they found written in any publication, spoken in any area. Up to that point like Punjabi English was not generic, but regionally influenced. Millions of words were entered, of which thousands were made up or coined by individuals. After the Second World War the legacy of the Oxford English Dictionary was that the new generation of British people learned words from this dictionary. It is the world�s first example that words can be made up and that the media decide as much as people do what words end up in a language. Yesterday on BBC Radio 4 in UK they announced they were going to gather 10,000 new science Fiction words from people�s writings and novels to add to the OED. All of these words have been made up. By the end of the century they will be widely used as others in the world�s largest volcabury language. So you see when people like myself and others suggest new words, or departments in Pakistani and Indian universities (Punjabi Language ones) compile new lists, the media should use these in articles, novels, poems and Radio and TV. Judging by what happens in the west I guarantee at least 10% will be taken up by the public. More importantly it helps to create or adapt words from other universal languages ( other than English, if possible) to fight the onslaught of Urdu and Sanskrit Hindi which is forcing us to fill these gaps. So please everyone continue to try new words. Please see my previous examples, or those of others, especially those Punjabi language researchers that are trying to create technological words. Occasionally due to popularity we have to accept commonly used English, Hindi and Urdu words too. On another subject, I can now scan the Gurmukhi font I have designed. Is anyone out there able to assign these new fonts to Anmolipi? Also Baldev Ji from 5abi is looking for a Punjabi font coder. Can anyone help? Regards Rupinder Dhillon

Name:	Akhilesh - May 11 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	'Khamosh Paani' http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-5-2004_pg7_37

Name:	Akhilesh - May 11 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Rashid Ji, What was the quality of 'Bhulekha' and 'Lehran' compared with Urdu publications. Are these two still printed? The Daily Bhulekha did have its own website but it was taken down awhile back... Safir Rammah Ji mentioned a Punjabi daily called 'Khabraan'. Hopefully this will be a success. Sirpa veer, Agree with you that it is a shame Vaishaki is not celebrated in West Punjab anymore. Vaishaki has a dual meaning for Punjabi Sikhs. It is not simply the birth of the Khalsa, but as you said, it is a Punjabi harvesting festival (Celebrated by all Punjabis). Of course, for Sikhs though establishment of Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh is more valued. I believe Vaishaki is also the Punjabi new year. Or is that Basant? Agree with kaurasach Ji. Tamils and other ethnic minorities of India put up a stiff (and violent in some cases) resistance against the 'onslaught' of Hindi, but Punjabis barely put up a fight. The East Punjab politicians are a joke and a disgrace on the name of democracy and Punjabiyat. The fools have divided and conquered themselves... Farhat Ji, Always happy to hear you stress the need to separate 'region from religion'. In my experience with most South Asian, they are incapable of comprehending the differences between culture, ethnicity/race, religion, nationality... Sameer Ji, Maharashtra state has had similar problems that East Punjab has had in regards to onslaught of Hindi and mass migration of 'Bhaiyaas/Bihairs' into their state, threatening the demographics of the region. Isnt this why Bal Thackery/Shiv Sena arose?. They also had a problem with gujuratees gobbling up all the businesses. I believe they have countered this problem by banning migrants from settling in the state. Himachal Pradesh (Former Punjab hill states) also has banned migrants from owning property, yet in Punjab state they leave the door wide open. They even bring them in for a vote bank.. You're right about the popularity and promotion of Punjabi by the diaspora. Here in UK we have 5 Punjabi radio stations available on satellite and via the internet (Two of them are Sikh religious stations). They are all doing a good job of further promoting the Punjabi language and various forms of Punjabi song/music. Punjabi is also recognized as a qualification at two school levels (GCSE and A-Level). I am considering trying to lobby for teaching of Punjabi in Shahmukhi script at the School of African & Oriental Studies (in London). I will let everyone know if any progress comes of this. Finally, here is a Punjabi who has done great service for the promotion of the language: Fighting for the minorities - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040511/ncr1.htm#21 And, a good response to the propaganda article on DAWN: http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/11/letted.htm#4

Name:	Shahid - May 11 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	kaurasach Saheb: I was fascinated by your statement: 'If illiterarte P(anja)bis in the past can preserve P(anja)bi (language) thru only oral culture, why cant literate P(anja)bis of today do something about the status of P(anja)bi? On one hand I love every so called 'illitare Panjabi' who has managed to preserve her/his 'maaN boli' (Panjabi or whatever it was called before it acquired the Panjabi name) through her/his oral tradition, and on the other hand, I feel sorry for her/him when she/he loses her/his 'Panjabi-literacy' on becoming modern 'literate'. I guess we all know why. Greed and selfishness, thoufgh short sighted, know no bounds. I feel like repeating what Bulleh Shah said: 'ilmuN bass kareN o Yaar'. As for the statment '.....Urdu is stronly tied to religion, history and Pakistan Ideology' by Sameer Saheb; is not the same slogan the 'front' has been championing and wants to convey and have Panjabis and others believe unquestionably, I hope not like 'Pakistanis' of the 'East Pakistan'. One has to tread this slippery path carefully, without giving-up her/his convictions. Anything, be it language, that is an obstacle in the path of 'Unity' of a people, is not worth it. Above all it should never create an atmosphere of hate, prejudice and antagonism - internal and external opportunists will always be waiting.

Name:	Shahid - May 11 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	kaurasach Saheb: I was fascinated by your statement: 'If illiterarte P(anja)bis in the past can preserve P(anja)bi (language) thru only oral culture, why cant literate P(anja)bis of today do something about the status of P(anja)bi? On one hand I love every so called 'illitare Panjabi' who has managed to preserve her/his 'maaN boli' (Panjabi or whatever it was called before it acquired the Panjabi name) through her/his oral tradition, and on the other hand, I feel sorry for her/him when she/he loses her/his 'Panjabi-literacy' on becoming modern 'literate'. I guess we all know why. Greed and selfishness, thoufgh short sighted, know no bounds. I feel like repeating what Bulleh Shah said: 'ilmuN bass kareN o Yaar'. As for the statment '.....Urdu is stronly tied to religion, history and Pakistan Ideology' by Sameer Saheb; is not the same slogan the 'front' has been championing and wants to convey and have Panjabis and others believe unquestionably, I hope not like 'Pakistanis' of the 'East Pakistan'. One has to tread this slippery path carefully, without giving-up her/his convictions. Anything, be it language, that is an obstacle in the path of 'Unity' of a people, is not worth it. Above all it should never create an atmosphere of hate, prejudice and antagonism - internal and external opportunists will always be waiting.

Name:

Sukhbir Garewal - May 11 2004

E-mail:

sugrewal@hotmail.com

Comments:

Dear Sameer Ji'

Your comment

"I used the word bhayya in my previous post hesitantly for collective Hindi-Urdu speaking psyche and not as individuals. The collective Hindi-Urdu psyche somehow wishes to absorb Panjab into their fold with them dictating the culture issues"

is no less frightening than your previous sweeping statement about an entire people. This is no better than some of the pronouncements of Shri Narendra Modi of the VHP variety. I wish you had not made, given your impeccable scholarship, these intolerant remarks. I find your argument about the "bhayyas" most unfortunate and contrary to the spirit of Baba Farid, Guru Nanak, Shah Hussain, Bulle Shah...

Sukhbir

Name:

Sameer - May 10 2004

E-mail:

sameerjb@hotmail.com

Comments:

Kaurasuch: We have right now model for Panjabi promotion and preserving in the form of Diaspora Panjabis. They are doing it in England, Canada and USA because it is a level playing field and Indian and Pakistani governments can not make the odds against it. I have never supported Panjabi domination over any non-Panjabi and respect every language. In fact my fluency and command of Urdu is much above average than Urdu speaker. Therefore I expect others to respect my mother tongue just as I respect theirs.

As you stated that there is no substitute for the importance of English and writing in english is the principle nemesis of Urdu in Pakistan both due to its secualar nature and language of progress and modernism whereas Urdu is stronly tied to religion, history and Pakistan Ideology.

Diaspora Panjabis are making headways in developing bonds above religious divide, providing services through small businesses and above all providing enough entertainment outlets for Panjabi youngsters and olds alike. Actually Panjabi is doing much better than Hindi/ Urdu in all the three above mentioned countries. If there is no interference from governments, the Panjabis in India and Pakistan are as capable of doing it there as here in Diaspora. It is wrong then to assume that multireligious or secular model for Panjabis is somehow impossible. In my opinion, Panjabi culture will thrive best under secular condition.

Name:	Chaudhary Sher Bahadur Sipra - May 10 2004
E-mail:	guru_jat@hotmail.com
Comments:	in pakistan we have the saab culture,burger families, the aristocrat and then the so called decent families. if someone speaks in a theth punjabi accent it is considered bad. in east punjab we have the jatka culture or the pendu culture or then the bhaiyyas or the bappa system thats it. thats the whole problem, rab raakha, punjab da raakha

Name:	kaurasach - May 10 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Sameer It is the law of nature, of one culture, nation, society to overwhelm, intentionally or otherwise the other. It is upto the defensive culture to fight back or get swallowed by the aggressor. It seems the aggressors (Hindi/Urdu interests) are better at the chess game. It happens all the time. Even Hindi/Urdu is under attack from English/Pepsi culture. But it has backing of the govt. so it won't fall as easy as Pbi. Do note that Punjab historically, was ruled by foreigners and their language was the official language. Even during Ranjit Singh's rule, it was Persian. Still, Punjabi persevered. If illiterarte Pbis in the past can preserve Pbi thru only oral culture, why cant literate Pbis of today do something about the status of Pbi?

Name:	Sameer - May 10 2004
E-mail:	sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:	Kaurasuch: Nobody would disagree that ultimately it is the responsibility of Panjabis to preserve and promote Panjabi culture. It is a question of preserving and promoting Panjabi culture in level playing field environment or doing it against odds. Why should odds be against it? Not making it official or national language means denying level playing field environment just as these 2 articles in Pakistani papers try to suggest. I used the word bhayya in my previous post hesitantly for collective Hindi-Urdu speaking psyche and not as individuals. The collective Hindi-Urdu psyche somehow wishes to absorb Panjab into their fold with them dictating the culture issues. They dont try it in Gujrat, Maharashtra or other cultures in India and Pashtun, Sindhi and Balochi cultures in Pakistan. I haven't read a single article in any Pakistani newspaper suggesting Urdu to be the only official language of Sindh though majority of Urdu speaking live there.

Name:	Farhat khan - May 10 2004
E-mail:	farhatkhan5@hotmail.com
Location:	chicago, il USA
Comments:	I am in complete agreement with comments posted by kaurasach. It is extremely difficult to attack a united front but unfortunatley there are way too many agendas in Punjab both East and West.It is sad that people do not want to acknowledge the difference between religion and region.As long as this bias based upon religion,caste or other differences will continue ,Punjab and Punjabis will continue to suffer . Some times I wonder if Punjabis fully comprehend their magnificent heritage or they just caught up in the past. Past is a step on a ladder to the present and in order to climb one has to take further steps ,not remain in one place or take back steps. One can never move forward. One remembers the past,one does not live there. Be well Farhat.

Name:	Ahmed Khan - May 10 2004
E-mail:	pakistan_panjabi@yahoo.ca
My URL:
Location:	New York/Toronto, NY USA/Canada
Comments:	Hi fellow Punjabis, this is a great site, I tried to register but it had a problem, something about "Front Page extensions", anyway, this is just a quick post to say hello and I hopefully will contribute something very good, very soon... Lots of love to you all, Pak Punjabi

Name:	kaurasach - May 10 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	We can blame the "Bhaiyas" or the Congress all we want. But if we take the responsibility and initiative to teach the next generation, our culture and language wouldn't be in such a poor state. The Tamils have resisted successfully the onslaught of Hindi. One thing that the politicians have been able to use in Punjab is the religion card and the hostile history, to further their pregjudiced and perverse agendas.

Name:	Chaudhary Sher Bahadur Sipra - May 10 2004
E-mail:	guru_jat@hotmail.com
Comments:	well if ptv did a documentary on baisakhi it is great but i am sure they wouldn't have stated that it was a festival celebrated by muslim and hindu farmers before. vaisakhi is celebrated on april 13 and 14 and is related with the harvesting of wheat. it is on this day that Guru Gobind Jee started the khalsa(i hope i got it right if not please let me know which guru did it). thus for the Sikhs it became a religious occasion and the muslims forgot all about vaisakhi. though till now i hear my elders talk about vaisakhi before partition. my father tells me about how he used to go with his maternal uncle from gujrat to wazirabad,gujranwala for the vaisakh da mela when he was a kid back in 1940s. i hope i was born at that time with the sense and determination i have for punjabi culture and might have tried to stop some people from dividing THE GREAT PUNJAB OR THE GREATER PUNJAB. vaisakhi ment that wheat had to be cut and farmers needed all the help they could so relatives used to come and help them in cutting wheat. then it was celebrated by jatt farmers by having mitha (sweet meat)before having the shoora with what ever food. they used to eat from one bowl. then the men used to dance in the form of bhangra. a jatt used to tell the dhol to play the dhol by saying ( sheikhan marr dagga) for muslims as all dholis are supposed to be sheikhs and for sikhs it was dholiya marr dagga. women used dance within the walls of the house by singing abd dancing in the form of bolis, tappas and gidha and sammi. rab raakha

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 10 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Isb, Pak
Comments:	Akhilesh Ji To some extent the problem of reading Punjabi would come in way of Punjabi papers and magazines but as the Persian script in which Punjabi is written in W Punjab is not as alien and with a slight exercise one can make his or her way to get Punjabi read. However it is a big task but we can�t say that Punjabi papers and magazines are not popular. I think no serious effort has been made in this regard. The papers appeared so far are not of the caliber of Urdu papers. But as far as authenticity is concerned Punjabi papers can at least gain the degree of the papers publishing in English (despite very poor circulation). The circulation of all the English papers published from Pakistan does not reach the circulation figure of a leading Urdu daily from only a single station. I am sure that some serious Punjabi paper would (if it could bear it financially) make its ground easily.

Name:

Sukhbir Garewal - May 10 2004

E-mail:

sugrewal@hotmail.com

Comments:

Sameer Ji,

Your comment : "I think the answer lies in historical dislikeness of Panjabis by Ganges Plains people and no matter if we accept Urdu-Hindi, they are not going to like us or please with us. I hate to agree with Saeed Farani on this issue. He has been saying this all along but we have been trying to disagree with him. The bhayyas dont like us, period," saddened me. I am writing to express my anguish.

Sukhbir

Name:	Akhilesh - May 10 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Rashid Ji you mentioned "Punjabi papers, televisions, radios and books would change this scenario." I agree but doesnt the problem lie on the fact that very few in West Punjab can read Punjabi, therefore Punjabi papers and magazines are not that popular? However, regarding television/music etc i was under the impression that Punjabi songs were quite a big hit in Pakistan (Not just in Punjab province). Agree with Sameer Ji that the 'Bhaiyas dont like us'. Yet funnily enough they (Indians) dont have a problem in ripping off Punjabi cultures (Whether food, music, clothing etc) and then trying to pass all these off as "Indian" without giving any credit or recognition for the land and people of which these all belong to. I also dont understand the obsession they have with trying to get Punjabis to accept Hindi or Urdu and class ourselves as the same people that they are (Which we are not). Bunch of freaks. How many Punjabis even care 1% about any of them, yet they are so enthusiastic about trying to tell us all about ourselves. It is typical of them to think they know more about Punjab than the Punjabis do... You're also right about CM Amrinder Singh, he is a fake. There exists no Punjab for him outside of his 'Patiala state' so it seems. East Punjab politicians are only concerned with making a fool out of the people and engaging in caste/regionalism/religious differences. Also, you made a good point on Urdu poetry and how it is not reflective of Punjab. Sorry to again mention something on script issue but i am dead set against what Josan said. Turkish reasons for adopting Roman script are because they dream of being accepted into Europe (Even though only Istanbul is Europe geographically). What they do is their business and we do not need to follow their decision (If so then Punjabis will be banned from displaying religious identities also). I dont have a problem with Punjabi written in Roman alphabet but officially, everything should remain in Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi (My opinion). Strongly disagree with your comment "these two scripts can still be used for religious purposes". This is the problem with South Asian in general. Why communalize something profane like an alphabet and attach a religious identity to it? Gurmukhi is perfect for expressing spoken Punjabi in written form, which is the whole idea why this script was developed. No need to relegate it just for religious use. Same for Shahmukhi script. Once this has been completed it will be just as viable. Until someone proves to me that it says in the Qur'an that Shahmukhi is apart of Islam i will continue aspiring to learn and write using this script. Trying to communalize the language, people, culture on religious grounds is what broke Punjab in the first place (Both in 1947 and 1966). As for computers, it is not impossible to develop software for easy use with Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. I have come across a number of websites in Gurmukhi. Also, one of APNA's objectives is that all Punjabis learn both scripts, therefore, no need for having to transliterate Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi and vice versa. We will all be able to read and write both scripts.

Name:	Josan - May 10 2004
E-mail:	bjosan@yahoo.com
Location:	Brussels, Belgium
Comments:	Sameer- Regarding the issue of script, in my view we should adopt modified roman script in both punjab's. This dosn't mean we are going to dump Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi, these two scripts can still be used for religious purposes. Benefit of using Roman script is manifold:- Already in both punjab, Roman script is in use. We don't have to spent any effort on popularising this. Another advantage will be easier computerisation. Easier word/database processing. There will be no need to translate it to Shahmuki and Gurmukhi. By doing this we can attract Punjabies from other regions like Delhi/Karachi and other states. They will slowly comeback to Punjabi. In India because of this issues already East punjab is divided in so many states. We want all should comeback to their roots. We should learn from Turkey. English language is also using roman script which was devloped by Romans.

Name:	Sameer - May 09 2004
E-mail:	sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:	Addendum to my previous post It is very insulting and humiliating to describe the language of more than 80 million Pakistanis as the crude form of Urdu because saying, "Urdu is the refined form of Panjabi" means essentially saying the same thing and then publishing it in mainstream press out of Panjab's capital. How would they feel if I call Urdu a junkyard dog (dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghaat ka) because it is so detached from local geography, traditions, cultures, flora and fauna. Sitting in Lahore, these Urdu writers have been using Arabic and Persain metaphoric words and phrases like laila, majnu, mehmil, ferhad, shirin, mansoor, dusht, sehraa, bayaban, baadbaan, qumri, tooti, laleh, maikhana, saqi, pathhar to describe different emotions instead of equivalent words like Heer, Sohni, Ranjha etc. If Urdu was originated in Panjab, then it is parasitical eating away local metaphors. Do you know patthar (stone) is not found easily in Panjab? We used to fire small marble sized balls made from mud for use in the slingshot. Stone is brought from NWFP in trucks for constructing roads and other things in Panjab. And the poet is Lahore is writing, "koi Pathar se na maray meray deewanay ko" and many more similar verses describing neighborhood not welcoming arrival of idiot lover. There is no desert in Panjabi heartland and yet poetry is loaded with sehraa using for lonliness and depression and so on. So essentially it is a junkyard dog calling other a dog.

Name:

Sameer - May 09 2004

E-mail:

sameer123@hotmail.com

Comments:

Hello all: It has been a while since Ilast posted any comments here. The current debate is intersting enough to offer my opinion.

I have read both articles, Dawn one by Mushir Anwer and Nawai-e-Waqt one by Fateh Mohammad Malik. The Panjab origin of Urdu is intellectually, scientifically and academically so week that it is not taken seriously by linguistic intelligentia. There is no further development on this front for the last 80 years since the famous but fake and subjectively written book by Mahmood Shirani. The book relies solely on similar sounding words in Urdu and Panjabi (just as Fateh Mohd Malik said in his article) but ignore the true reason of Pali and Prakrits as sister dialects originating from Sanskrit and spoken in Ganges and Panjab plains respectively. Both regions have shared thousands of years of history, migrations and there is no difficult natural barrier to cross between these two regions.

Both Mahmood Shirani and Fateh Mohd Malik are wrong in suggesting that Urdu was widely spoken before British imposition of it. In fact Urdu has never even come close to be "most" spoken language in Panjab, not even today. The edge Urdu enjoyed was in writing Urdu and not speaking Urdu. Most villages and most women always spoke Panjabi. The literacy level in 1947 was around 10 percent for Muslim Panjabi men and certain percent of this small group could and would speak Urdu. I wonder how long they would keep throwing dust in the eyes on the back of nationalistic-cum-religious emotionalism with such stereotypes and lies without the backing of any kind of data. There are two important points to be made here.

Urdu is Islamized form of Hindi. Its grammer and basic structure are same as Hindi and clearly represent evolution from Pali dialects spoken in Ganges Plains. The vocabulary is bulged with mostly Persian words without giving credit or difficulty which makes its link with Persian lateral. If Hindi is the mother of Urdu, Persian is nurturer or governess. Urdu was most likely developed slowly at several places around the seats of power under Muslim rulers. It is well-known that it was developed in 2 stages. First stage came early between mixing of more flexible and adaptable Afghans coming to subcontinent as soldiers and settlers during 11-13th centuries. Amir Khusro is the product of this mixing. The fall of Delhi Sultanate was also the fall of Persian speaking Afghan power to Persian speaking central Asians, Mughals who were adamant to mixing cultures and muted the development of Urdu for several centuries until Urdu poets made it appear again near the end of Mughal rule. The script is Arabic and that makes it Islamic.

2. It is a moot point for any Panjabi lover or promoter to be told of Panjab origins of Urdu. No serious person can back everthing ever originated in Panjab. Feudalism is very Panjabi and more recently, sectarian terrorist and Jihadi groups like Lashkar-e-Toiba, Sipah-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi are also originated in Panjab. Does that mean that Panjabi's should accept or love them? Absolutely not. Whether Urdu originated in Panjab or not is irrelevent to our demand and desire for promotion and acceptance of Panjabi as the official language of Panjab.

I certainly do not support military government and Musharraf installed Chaudhris over Panjab. That is why, I dont want to link genuine activism with the current Panjab government and I believe Capt. Amrinder Singh is not genuine Panjabi language supporter either. His loyalties are to the Hindi dominated Congress Party and he has proven record of bringing more Hindi language into Panjab in schools, billboards, media etc.

It raises very telling issue, though not related to the current topic. Why do Hindi-Urdu speaking people want Panjabis to accept Hindi-Urdu despite three times larger demographically and much more powerful politically? How come Fateh M Malik and Mushir Ahmed never wrote about imposing Urdu on Sindh, Balochistan and NWFP? How come people speaking these languages are as good Muslims as Panjabis despite extensive Sanskrit words in Sindhi Language. How come Bangladeshis also are as good Muslims with extensive Sanskrit words and also Sanskrit based non-Arabic script? Why do India makes much less effort to Hinidize Tamil and Bengali etc as compared to Panjabi? I think the answer lies in historical dislikeness of Panjabis by Ganges Plains people and no matter if we accept Urdu-Hindi, they are not going to like us or please with us. I hate to agree with Saeed Farani on this issue. He has been saying this all along but we have been trying to disagree with him. The bhayyas dont like us, period. Therefore, it is nonsense to say that Panjabi will dilute Islamic character of Muslim Panjabis because of more Sanskrit words and there is no move in Pakistani Panjab to opt for Devnagri or Gurmukhi script, which like Bengali would not alter the Islamic identity of Pakistani Panjabis either even if that was the case. More likely, these alphabets/ script - Roman or English is likely to replace Arabic script if ever in Pakistani Panjab, which I wish.

This is the kind of argument, we should make in our defense and write to newspapers as letters and articles.

The three-way split and vying for group interests, based on religion no longer exists for Muslims of Panjab that made the politics of 1910-1920, Munshi Mahboob Alam and Paisa Akhbar. It is not valid anymore. we are Panjabis and want genuine status given to panjabi language. As simple as that. I mean I can extend this argument to great length on the basis of how Panjabi language can promote peace in the region. Few years back during the height of hostilty and near war situation between India and Pakistan, official media in both countries was blaring songs about sacrifice, bravery, pride and destroying enemies while a Panjabi singer was singing, "odhar vi mawaN ron giaN, aedhar vi mawaN ron giaN". I thought this is fitting song on this mother day here as well as depicting the mood of Panjabis for peace over hostility.

Name:	Rashid Chaudhry - May 09 2004
E-mail:	rashid313@yahoo.com
Location:	Islamabad, Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Apna Mitro I had read the article of Mr. Malik the day when it was published. I was not as stunned as of my friends belonging to Eastern side of this land did. The miserable state of affairs of Punjabi in our side is so meager that one couldn�t find to reasons to shock over such �revelations�. But I would not blame only the author for this approach. An overwhelming majority of Punjabis in W Punjab think and even act on this line. Speaking Punjabi is considered odd even in the city like Lahore. I amused with one of the contributors� assumption that �this campaign against Punjabi is the response of some Elahi led Punjab government�s initiatives to promote Punjabi�. I think no one in Pakistan has �any fear� of doing something better for Punjabi at ruling Chaudhris� part and so did I. It was even reported in the newspapers that Elahi didn�t like the arrival of East Punjab CM in Lahore and so did the majority of rightists. Let take elitist Fakhar Zaman and company, this is the fact that all the acknowledged (or owing to media projection our brothers residing on other side of border thinks) Punjabi workers are tagged as �anti Pakistan�. I don�t think while dealing with the language there is any need to touch ideology of Pakistan or the religions as both the ideology and religion can also be conveyed through Punjabi. Interestingly Punjabi Muslims (especially those whom ancestors migrated from India) are explicit pro-Pakistanis and they have been trained in the name of patriotism and religion to sacrifice their culture and language. Unfortunately they do so. The point I want mentioning is that the views of Malik like intellectuals are the response of the activities of the people who want their �agenda� accomplished in the guise of promoting language. What�s the way out. To abuse Urdu or Urdu writers is not the solution. Why don�t we woo them to write in Punjabi too. Writing a �book� of �5000� words is not the only service of Punjabi. Can Punjabis not afford a press like �Jang� or Nawa-i-Waqt or a TV channel like �Geo�. The fact is that everything is possible but where a common Punjabi could go. No forum is available to voice such genuine needs. No work in unison is being carried out. People personally and most of them for personal gains label themselves as preachers of Punjabi and even then they find a chance to get their any �Urdu book� published officially, they don�t hesitate to sit under Urdu umbrella. Why the poets like Amjad, Munir Niazi, Anwar Masood not devote themselves to promote Punjabi? Everyone could not be wrong. They know if they go for this task, their work will be hijacked by certain quarters, ruling on this front. Please before mulling over Punjabi in Pakistan, do think that Punjab is the biggest province with a zero degree anti-state sentiments in Pakistan. If the Pakistani Punjabis are give a decent assurance that their religion and their commitment with their homeland would not be targeted, they will return to their mother tongue. The only need is to engage all streamlined political parties, religious groups and eminent Punjabi personalities to go for this big task. Punjabi papers, televisions, radios and books would change this scenario.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 09 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Comments:	�Contesting to save rights of Punjabis� - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040509/cth1.htm#12 In Delhi�s Lahore - http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-5-2004_pg3_2 Historical sites in Gujrat crumbling - http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-5-2004_pg7_18 Press Freedom Day and Punjabi dailies - http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/09/fea.htm#2

Name:	Akhilesh - May 09 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	,
Comments:	*Excuse me, Guru Nanak not the only Sikh Guru to have been born in what is now Punjab province, Pakistan.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 09 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear Saeed Ji, sent you my letter to DAWN. Shahid Ji, it is unfortunate that the Nation did not publish your article. The truth hurts some people so they choose to ignore it, and if they can, sweep it under the rug and hope no one will notice. I have sent a few letters in response to incorrect and just plain outrageous articles that have been printed in South Asian press, they all seem to go unnoticed. However, had some luck this time with getting a response from me printed in the Tribune (Chandigarh) - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040509/mailbag.htm - They edited out the harsh tongue lashing i gave in the letter which was in response to a very misguided individual who suggested that India be renamed "Hindustan" and that this is the real name of that country. Hey, at least they printed it tho... Anyway, i had hoped that DAWN would print my clarification to them that Guru Nanak was not the only Sikh Guru to have been born in Lahore, but no luck. I lack confidence now in the credibility of South Asian press given the many stupid, incorrect, biased articles/opinions many of these papers publish...

Name:	Saeed - May 09 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dr. Shahid Jee, I received your article and now I will print it and after printing it I will send to a few newspapers because the article written by Prof. Fateh Mohammad Malik is published by almost every Urdu newspaper. Dear APNA Mitro, here is one very sad report on the killings of poor Punjabis in Macedonia. (courtesy: Dawn, Karachi 09.05.04) Macedonia echoes in Punjab By Greg Bearup THE gaudy mansions of those who've "made it" sit out of place in a sea of poverty, surrounded by dull, red-brick huts, wallowing buffalo and the stench of open sewers. Fatima Bibi is a sweeper in one of these houses, working not for money, but for a bowl of rice or some flour. Her employers in this small Punjabi village had been poor too, just like her, and now they live in relative luxury, with a satellite dish and a new fridge because their son went "to New York to drive taxis". But Fatima's son wasn't so lucky. When 20-year-old Ijaz set off for Europe early in 2002, he carried the hopes of his family. Ijaz was the second youngest of the widow's nine children. He ended up as "collateral damage" in the "war on terror", gunned down by Macedonian police, who claimed he and six others were terrorists. Last week the Macedonians admitted that this was a lie, and that the shooting was a "staged murder", part of a clumsy plot to try to impress the Americans. "My son, my beautiful son," wailed Fatima, while clutching a photograph of Ijaz. "He was a good boy who just wanted to make things better for his family. How could they shoot him down, like a dog? He was a good Muslim, but he had no time for politics." This week in the Macedonian capital, Skopje, warrants were issued for the arrest of the former interior minister, Ljube Boskovski, in relation to the shooting of Ijaz and the six others. Several senior police have been charged with murder. Following a lengthy investigation, the Macedonian authorities have admitted that the six Pakistanis and one Indian were simply illegal immigrants, trying to get to Greece to find work on the Olympic sites, or anywhere else. "This was the act of a sick mind," said Mirjana Konteska, a Macedonian official. "They lost their lives in a staged murder (so the police and officials) could present themselves as participants in the war against terror." The seven were picked up as they entered Macedonia, through Bulgaria, and held in custody for several days before being driven to a spot en-route to the American embassy. Then they were gunned down. Boskovski, who was then the interior minister, claimed his forces had foiled a major terrorist attack on the embassy a the six Pakistanis and one Indian were simply illegal immigrants, trying to get to Greece to find work on the Olympic sites, or anywhere else. "This was the act of a sick mind," said Mirjana Konteska, a Macedonian official. "They lost their lives in a staged murder (so the police and officials) could present themselves as participants in the war against terror." The seven were picked up as they entered Macedonia, through Bulgaria, and held in custody for several days before being driven to a spot en-route to the American embassy. Then they were gunned down. Boskovski, who was then the interior minister, claimed his forces had foiled a major terrorist attack on the embassy and that bags of guns and uniforms were found on the "Mujahideen fighters". There were inconsistencies in the story from the start. Thepolice originally stated they had been ambushed, but could not explain why seven heavily armed terrorists were killed, while the police received no injuries. They then changed their version of events to say they'd ambushed the terrorists to prevent them attacking the American embassy. But the inquiry found otherwise. The men were shot dead in cold blood. To cover their tracks, the police placed bags filled with guns and uniforms next to the dead bodies. "I told him not to go," Fatima said, as she recalled the last words she said to her son. "But he was determined and we'd sold our house to pay the smuggling agent." As she kissed her son goodbye she slipped two plastic copies of Quranic verses into the pocket of his shalwar kameez. Some of the other mothers had done the same, and the Macedonian police would later claim, when they found the verses, that this was "terrorist literature". The deal with the smuggler was that Rs125,000 (about 1,250 pounds) would be paid when Ijaz made it to Turkey, and the remaining 2500 pounds when he arrived in Greece. Ijaz, along with the other young men, had valid documents for Iran, but fakes for the trip from there through Turkey, Bulgaria, Macedonia and onto Greece. Ijaz's family was already heavily in debt because he had made the journey the year before, only to be deported not long after making it to Greece. But they thought he would be safe, and, at worst, deported again. The family rattled off names of boys from the village who had made it. Ansar has a good job in a Milanfactory, they said. Mudassar is cleaning fish in Canada, while Mehmood is a house painter in Paris and is very good to his mother. Almost every family in the district has, or has attempted, to send someone to the West. "We are very poor," Fatima said. "The education our children get is not good enough to get a job. The only way is to leave. Life is good for the ones who have children in Europe and America. They have big houses and cars. They have money to marry their daughters, and then weddings like emperors, with feasts that you can't finish." We were talking about Ijaz when Fatima started to weep. "My husband died not long after my last child was born (her ninth)," she said. "My life has been very hard. Ijaz was so happy to be going to Europe. He would tell me how much money he was going to send home. He would say that I would not have to sweep floors again." Human rights lawyer Ansar Burney raised money which allowed the six families to pay off their debts, and he fought a long battle with Macedonian authorities to have the bodies returned to Pakistan. He has now lodged a claim with the International Court of Justice in The Hague for $2 million compensation for each of the six families. He said he will also act for the family of the one Indian killed in the attack, but so far no one has come forward to claim the body. It is likely they don't know he's dead. "Who knows what others atrocities have been committed in the name of the 'war on terror'," Burney told The Guardian. "This whole affair has just been so incredibly evil - it is hard to comprehend." A spokesman from his office said the Pakistan government had been "unhelpful" when they first tried to get the bodies back from Macedonia. "Once they heard the word "terrorist" they ran a mile," the spokesman said. "They didn't want to do anything that would possibly upset the Americans." In another village, not far from Fatima's, there are still more grieving families. "I have four daughters and only one of them is married," cried Rizia Bibi. Her son, Umar Farooq, 20, was also killed. "My husband is a donkey-cart driver and Umar was to get a good job so his sisters could marry. Now I have one dead son and little hope of marrying my daughters," she said. The family lives in a tiny, two-room house. Umar's father, Sabir, cried when he told me about his son's plans to send money home. "He told me that donkey driving was beneath me and that one day I'd be driving a car." Rizwan Nawed, the brother of 22-year-old Sabtain Nawed, who was also killed, said he had a cousin who made it to Greece more than 10 years ago and is now a shop keeper. "His family has bought more land and a tractor and they can afford to send their children to schools that will get them to university," Rizwan said. "One person can change the life of all the people. It only takes one to get out, and the future is paved with gold." -Dawn/The Guardian News Service.

Name:	Saeed - May 09 2004
E-mail:	saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dr. Shahid Jee te Akhilesh Jee, Please send me your articles through net and I will make photocopies of them and will post to 20 to 25 newpapers and magazines.

Name:	Shahid - May 08 2004
E-mail:	mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:	Who's Mother (Language) Who: Friends: On Feb. 21, 2004, on this Forum I had posted: For those who are interested in reading an Urdu article entitled 'Panjab kee maadaree zubaan Urdu hay' go to the link shown below, click on the 'idartee mazameen' (5th box) and the article is 2nd in the list of three. As the title indicates, this article is on the Panjabi language, and politics surrounding it as it has been played out over recent past. Read and draw your own conclusions. There are some very interesting and amusing conjectures. Let me not influence your judgment by making my more comment. After you have read it we can talk about and around it. http://www.nawaiwaqtgroup.com/urdu/daily/feb-2004/19/index.htm May be Sajid saheb can post this article here for the benefit of all. I had written an article in response to this article by Fateh Mohammed Malik (of course in Urdu) and sent it to Nawa-i-Waqt. For some reason it was not published. Well. This is not the first or last time such things will happen. Panjabi's will be used against Panjabi, the Language. You may remember Abu-ul-Asr Hafeez Jalandhari's (the creater poet of Pakistani Qaumi Tarana) couplet (there is an interesting and illuminating real story behind this couplet): dekha jo teer kha kay kameeN-gaah kee taraf apnay hee dostoN say mulaqaat ho gaee I wish the Nawa-e-Waqt article was posted on this site. It would have benefitted many Panjabis. I have rarely seen more pathetic arguments in support of anything, let alone a language as were advanced by author of this article.

Name:	Akhilesh - May 08 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear Sardaz, kaurasach and Saeed. Saeed Ji thanks for the email. I had sent a letter to DAWN as soon as i read that article. I think the article is a reflection of the insecurity Urdu elitists are under now that the Punjab government has taken an interest in the promotion and development of Punjabi language. I found it very unfortunate that such a weak, ignorant and bias case was made against Punjabi by the author. It is a well established fact that Urdu and Punjabi are two distinct and separate languages. Urdu has developed from Hindistani (As did Hindi) not Punjabi. It does not reflect well on the character of a person who assumes that just because a few "Turks, Persians, Afghans" had "camped in Punjab on their way to Delhi" that by some miracle these soldiers drastically altered the demographics of Punjab and gave birth to a new mode of speech (Even a new race of people?). This my friends is what i call someone with an inferiority complex. Someone who feels that we Punjabis are a lesser people than the Turks, Persians etc. So beneath them infact that we required them to provide a new and 'refined language' for us. Pure myth. It was also irresponsible of this guy to suggest that Punjabi or any other language has any association with Islam or other religions. As far as i am aware, Arabic is the only language which has any significance in Islam, yet all other languages and cultures are to be respected. Even in Sikhism, Punjabi is not placed above other languages. Gurbani was infact composed in other languages alongside Punjabi like Braj Bhasha, Persian, Sanskrit... By the way, Mughals were all Persian speaking, not Urdu speaking. Urdu is very recent. My Grandfather wrote prose and poetry in Urdu (and also Persian) under the alias 'Zia Fatehabadi'. From what my father has told me, my grandfather had contributed some new words to Urdu dictionary. Just goes to show how recent Urdu is... Anyway, languages do not have religious identities, they have cultural and ethnic ones.. Finally, i recall remember reading a line in the Indian Gazetteer that Urdu, while used for administration in Punjab, was unpopular among the masses: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/ Ps, i think this should be a wake up call for the government of East Punjab. I think they have slacked in promotion of Punjabi. During the WPC Amrinder Singh said something like "People who do not speak Punjabi do not find work in Punjab". What a joke! I bet even his 'servants' in Patiala speak Hindi instead of Punjabi. Last point, read this - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040508/windows/main1.htm - While i think it is a very encouraging display of religious harmony why is there a "one condition" that Urdu is compulsory, why not Punjabi? Doesnt make sense at all. If Amrinder Singh meant what he said about Punjabi and employment than none of these kids will be able to work in Punjab. What a mess no wonder many people in Punjab are so corrupt, deceitful and backwards (sorry to say). They are holding us all back. AKHILESH SONI (A PUNJABI)

Name:	Saeed - May 08 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Sardarz, kaurasach, Akhilesh te hor sajno, This article is a part of that propaganda expedition which is presently run to create checks in the way of Punjabi. Whenever, there is a little thought or voice from the Government side to promote Punjabi, then such croakings of frogs (I mean statements and articles) start appearing in the press, mostly in the Urdu press. Actually this article is also translated from one of the Urdu articles written by Prof. Fateh Mohammad Malik in favour of Urdu. Now question arises why he has started such silly movement against Punjabi? The answer is simple that he (unfortunately Punjabi of village Bhon of Chakwal District) is the Chairman of National Language Authority which is a national level institution in Islamabad to pormote Urdu in the whole country but specially in Punjab as Punjab is the biggest province (population vise) of Pakistan and it has opted for Urdu whereas in Sindh province Sindhi has a status of oficial language of Sindh. It is great tragedy and also matter of shame that you will not find any single Pathan, Sindhi or Baloch who favours Urdu on the cost of Sindhi, Pushto or Balochi but you will find such nasty figurs (traitors of the motherland) among Punjabis who give more importance or absolute importance to Urdu as compare to Punjabi. Fateh Mohammad Malik is such so called danishwar or intellectual in Islamabad who talks much in favour of Urdu just to save his kursi (seat or comforts). PunjabiaN dee badqismatee ke kutee choraaN naal ralee hoee ey. es ilaaqey wich ik hor vee baRaa DhaDhaa akhaaN ey ke apney paa gosht dee khatir, dooey (doojey baNdey) dee majh marnaa. It shows selfish behaviour.

Name:	Saeed - May 08 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Dear Sardarz, kaurasach, Akhilesh te hor sajno, This article is a part of that propaganda expedition which is presently run to create checks in the way of Punjabi. Whenever, there is a little thought or voice from the Government side to promote Punjabi, then such statements and articles start appearing in the press, mostly in the URdu press. Actually this article is also translated from one of the URdu articles written by Prof. Fateh Mohammad Malik in favour of Urdu. Now question arises why he has started such silly movement against Punjabi. The answer is simple that he (unfortunately Punjabi of village Bhon of Chakwal District) is the Chairman of National Language Authority which is a national level institution in Islamabad to pormote Urdu in the whole country but specially in Punjab as Punjab is the biggest province (population vise) of Pakistan and it has opted for Urdu whereas in Sindh province Sindhi has a status of oficial language of Sindh. It is great tragedy and also matter of shame that you will not find any single Pathan, Sindhi or Baloch who favours Urdu on the cost of Urdu but you will find such nasty figurs (traitors of the motherland) among Punjabis who give more importance or absolute importance to Urdu as compare to Punjabi. Fateh Mohammad Malik is such so called danishwar (intellectual) who talks much just to save his kursi (seat). PunjabiaN dee badqismatee ke kutee choraaN naal ralee hoee ey.

Name:	kaurasach - May 07 2004
E-mail:	kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:	Alhilesh, The article is absurd, The papers that publish such tirade is as big a culprit as the ignorant author.

Name:

Sardarz - May 07 2004

E-mail:

asvgvgv@yahoo.com

Comments:

Akhlesh Ji,

I agree with you the article published in "The Dawn" is anti- punjabi, I dont have a problem with it that, everyone can express their differing views, but what I have problem with is,as you said, this article is very IGNORANT too.

I do not know the credentials of the author of this article,but when he goes on to state
"Punjabi and Urdu were basically one and the same language. Punjabi was Urdu's older form and Urdu its refined and developed body"
I cannot stop laughing at his claim.Mr.Mushir Anwar (Author of this article) probably is not aware of the historical origins of URDU which are so obvious, to even people of common intelligence. URDU seems to have orginated from the marriage of two languages i,e Hindi and Persian. Both of which are evident respectively in spoken and written form of Urdu.
The facts speak for themselves.
Medevial India,the capital of which is in HINDI heartland(Delhi, Agra) consisting of the states UP,BIHAR,RAJASTHAN& MADHYA PRADESH being ruled by Muslim rulers of persian/Central Asian origin.
It is but convinient and in favour of the rulers and their Royal court to promote a language that has a script of their mother toungue (Persain) but can be understood by local people beacuse it imports the spoken form of their local language (Hindi)

If Mr.Mushir Anwar feels peace and happiness in ignoring his mother toungue (Punjabi) in favour of a foreign language (Urdu in this case), I can, but just feel sorry for his Intellect.

Regards.

Name:

Sardarz - May 07 2004

E-mail:

huihuih@yahoo.com

Comments:

Dear Farhat Khan Ji,

Very well said, and very well put.
Wish more punjabis start thinking like you, across the boundries of religion,region and Gender.

Regards

Name:	Anil Kumar - May 07 2004
E-mail:	indianbirds@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:	I originally belong to distt. PATIALA Punjab. My grand parents migrated from West Punjab, PAKISTAN. All I know is that my Grand Father name Sh LAL CHAND BATRA belonged to SHAHKOT distt. SHEIKHUPURA. Is there someone from that town ..? I wish to visit that town to pay my respects to the land of my elders. Hopefully one day !! Thank you !

Name:	Akhilesh - May 07 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Hi, A very ignorant and anti-Punjabi article published in todays DAWN: Urdu as Punjab's mother tongue http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/07/fea.htm#2 Also, did anyone see this documentary on PTV? PTV produces documentary on Beshakhi http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/may-2004/7/national/isb6.asp

Name:	farhat khan - May 06 2004
E-mail:	farhatkhan5@hotmail.com
Location:	Chicago , Il USA
Comments:	With all due respect to Sipra Ji ,you are adressing many different issues under one umbrella. Punjab and Punjabi traditions are basically the same and the reason I can say this is because my parents and grand parents practiced the same traditions as all other punjabis. You have to separte religion from region. As far as moral values are concerned that is a matter of choice,drinking is not immoral if you make a choice to do it and do it in moderation,on the other hand lying,cheating and hurting other human beings is not only immoral but criminal.One has to define his/her own moral parameters .No body has the right to define or dictate another person's values. There are certain universal truths that we all adhere to hopefully. One of these universal truth is respect and it is an all encompassing truth. As far as women and freedom is concerned that too is contigent upon one's upbringing,traditionally Punjabi women have participated with men in many aspects of life and after the onset of much more rigid Islamic laws in Pakistan things changed. As far as the exploitation of women at the hands of fuedal lords is concerned ,that is an unfortunate and ugly truth that has existed in all fuedal societies and Punjab is no exception. The province of Sindh and the Vedaras are notorious for this ugly reality. Sipra Ji,there are still families and young people who are quite well educated and well versed in weteren ways and yet know their heritage and the rich canvas of their culture and are active participants in many ways. By the way music and dance are special gifts of the gods bestowed upon the great land five rivers and if one does not have the ability to enjoy them then at least in my opinion they dont have a soul. Jiyo, Farhat.

Name:	Safir Rammah - May 06 2004
E-mail:	rammah@apnaorg.com
Location:	Fairfax, Va USA
Comments:	APNA's DINNER MEETING WITH ZIA SHAHID Friends: APNA will be hosting a dinner meeting with Zia Shahid, Chief Editor of Khabraan, on May 13, 8:00 PM, at O's Place, a Pakistani Chinese restaurant located at 6723 Richmond Highway (Route 1) Alexandria, VA (703-765-0932). We invite all Punjabi supporters in Washington DC Metropolitan area to join us in honoring Zia Shahid who has taken a bold step and has fulfilled a critical need for the promotion of Punjabi language in Pakistan by publishing a daily Punjabi newspaper Khabraan from Lahore and Islamabad. Please send me an e-mail at rammah@apnaorg.com if you are interested in attending the dinner. Thank you.

Name:	CHAUDHARY SHER BAHADUR SIPRA - May 06 2004
E-mail:	guru_jat@hotmail.com
Comments:	balle oye mitro, tay wadko. jattan da damagh bara garam honda ayee. there is no tradition is west punjab. trust me we dont celebrate vaisakhi in the way we should. punjabis 50 years back were more liberal but now are conservative when it comes to women specially in the villages. in this modern era some people are becoming conservative some are forgetting their culture some just think traditions are bad and some think things are good with education. who wants to see their women drinking and then doing immoral things. we have our own culture, traditions, values and morals. most of the people will not agree with this statement. my family doesnt agree with me on this. people say women do not have any rights in punjab or in a fuedal system. punjabi women are respected. its some people or the zamindars who make use of their power in exploiting women. and doesnt every man enjoy women even in cities. people dont feel safe in letting their young gilrs go out and play in villages now because of wrong doings and thought in minds of young boys who watch movies which pollute their minds. women are secluded now because of these problems not because of religion. in universities and colleges in east punjab students participate in extra curricular activities and traditional actvities such as bhangra, kabbaddi and other such things. girls preform gidda and other suck folk traditions. while in instituitions in west punjab people will consider to be a marassis job to do such things. students in west punjab do not have any such actvities or teams competing at regional levels as neither the government nor the schools encourage such things which build a persons personality and values. punjab da raakha Chaudhary Sher Bahadur Sipra

Name:	Akhilesh - May 06 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	SAFMA to explore East-West Punjab collaboration * Setting up of Pakistani, Indian Punjab consultation forum discussed By Waqar Gillani LAHORE The South Asia Free Media Association (SAFMA) will identify further areas of potential cooperation between East and West Punjab to enhance interpersonal contacts and bilateral ties, said a SAFMA Pakistani Punjab chapter meeting on Tuesday. Thirty-five noted journalists, politicians, traders, academics, artists and social activists from the Punjab attended the meeting and called for better culture, trade and agriculture links with Indian Punjab as well as the promotion of the Punjabi language. The meeting was the second on the setting up of an Indian-Pakistani Punjab consultation forum to enhance interpersonal contacts at regional level. The first meeting was in February. A Pakistani Punjab delegation is to visit Indian Punjab before the end of July to explore areas of cooperation through mutual consultation, said the meeting. A public seminar is planned for June where experts would make proposals on the possible avenues of cooperation. The Punjab chief minister will be invited to attend the seminar, said SAFMA General Secretary Imtiaz Alam. Mr Alam said a SAFMA delegation had already met the chief minister and he promised to help the campaign. He said the forum would facilitate Pak-India relations and enhance interpersonal contacts. The SAFMA general secretary said Pakistani Kashmir-Indian Kashmir and Sindh-Rajhastan consultations would also be considered in the future. The meeting was told that a report compiled by the World Bank on cooperation between the two Punjabs would help the forum. The meetings was also told that informal trade between Pakistan and India was $2 billion while formal trade between the two countries was less than $193 million. The meeting was also informed that 10,000 Indian would visit Lahore daily if the border between the two countries was opened. The meetings said peace between the two countries was inevitable and the old tensions were gradually disappearing. Negative criticism of the peace process was of no great concern because it came from a small minority. The majority on both sides hoped for peace and supported the normalisation process. The SAFMA members praised both governments for backing interpersonal contacts and called for more confidence building measures. They criticised recent negative press coverage from an Indian and a Pakistani newspaper that could harm the peace process. However, they noted that the vast majority of press articles were in favour of better ties. The meeting said Lahore could become the hub of Pak-India trade. It also called for multipurpose and sector-to-sector professional cooperation between Pakistani and Indian Punjab. SAFMA Punjab President and journalist Munoo Bhai, journalist Ahmad Bashir, politician Syeda Abida Hussain, Members of the National Assembly Shah Mahmood Qureshi, Aitzaz Ahsan and Ishaq Khan Khakwani, former Lieutenant General Nasir Akhtar, journalist Hussain Naqi, Masood Ali Khan, Hafiz Riaz Durrani, MAK Lodhi, Anjum Rashid, Shirin Pasha, Shahid Kardar and others attended the meeting. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_6-5-2004_pg7_22 Sikh heritage set for debut at Smithsonian http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_734652,0015002000000073.htm Golden Temple model to adorn US museum http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040506/cth2.htm#8

Name:	Saeed - May 05 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Veer Sipra Jee, tuhaaDee e post choN TuhaaDaa dard samajh jhalkaarey maardaa ey. te inj da dard hor vee boht saarey sajjan belee eys site te rakhdey neyN, par sachi puchho taaN niraa dard ee rakhdey neyN. eh vee ohnaaN daa bhalaa. Gal baat, shughal mughal, kujh Tohr TehKaa, kujh kitharisis, kujh chunjaaN tez, wagheraa wagheraa. Ch. Sipraa jee, tusi je kar sanjeedaa o taaN piR vee ey te GhoRaa vee teyaar ey. Aggey wadho, saarey Punjab nooN Bulleh Shah, Waris Shah, Shah Hussain, Baba Farid, Baba Nanak, Mian Mohammad, Sultan Bahoo, Kh. Ghulam Farid paRhaa diyaaN ge. Eh baRh naheeN je. Eh meyN pichhley DeyRh saal wich tajarbaa kar rahyaa je. hun tik 40,000 kitaabaaN chaar baabiyaaN baarey PunjabiaaN kol jaa chukiyaaN neyN. aao Paa Jee meydaan wich. Shaalaa khereeN waso. My this mail is not meant to insult anyone. It is just dudh da dudh te paaNee daa paaNee.

Name:	Saeed - May 05 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Veer Sipra Jee, TuhaaDaa dar samajh aoNdaa ey. te inj da dard hor vee boht dost es site te rakhdey par sachi puchho taaN niraa dard ee rakhdey neyN. eh vee ohnaaN daa bhalaa. Gal baat, shughal mughal, kujh Tohr TehKaa, kujh kitharisis, kujh chunjaaN tez, wagheraa wagheraa. Ch. Sipraa jee, tusi je kar sanjeedaa o taaN piR vee ey te GhoRaa vee teyaar ey. Aggey wadho, saarey Punjab nooN Bulleh Shah, Waris Shah, Shah Hussain, Baba Farid, Baba Nanak, Mian Mohammad, Sultan Bahoo, Kh. Ghulam Farid paRhaa diyaaN ge. Eh baRh naheeN je. Eh meyN pichhley DeyRh saal wich tajarbaa kar rahyaa je. hun tik 40,000 kitaabaaN chaar baabiyaaN baarey PunjabiaaN kol jaa chukiyaaN neyN. aao Paa Jee meydaan wich. Shaalaa khereeN waso. My this mail is not meant to insult anyone. It is just dudh da dudh te paaNee daa paaNee.

Name:	Harv Dhillon - May 04 2004
E-mail:	hpsdhol@yahoo.com
Location:	Toronto, on canada
Comments:	If any body wants to learn DHOl (Indian Bhangra Drum) in or around Toronto you can get in touch with us at (416)386 0314. One on one lessons could also be arranged. We also provide services for Weddings, Birthday parties, Jagran and Mata ke Chowki.

Name:	gursharan - May 04 2004
E-mail:	ya@ya.com
Location:	reston, va USA
Comments:	Veer Shirpa, gall tohadi badi tikhi te garam jehi jaapi so es karke is issue te kujh likhan di himmat kar reha haan. koi ooch neech ho jaave te anyaana samajh ke hou pare kar dena. aapda pehla point ke pakistan di navi paneeree nu na bulle shah da pata na shah hussain da. meri samajh de mujab eh ik tareeke naal os mulak vich religous superresion heth hoya kyon jo kise hor rehtal kise hor boli di gall karni othey gavaara nahi. aj-kal haalat kujh badal rahe han so rabb te dor rakh veera bhale din aaonge. naale eh gall pakistan vich hi nahi jithe v punjabi baitha hai othe es gall da aava ooteya hoya hai. dooja point tohada ke je asi aapni dharat te nahi te asi aapni ma-boli layi kujh nahi kar sakde. Te maaf kari veera tu te APNA de beliyaan di kitti kaar nu kujh v na jaaneya. mere kheyaal naal aapne vatan to door reh ke v kaafi lok aapni ma boli aapni rehtal vaaaste bada kujh kar rahe han. othe te ethe ho rahi saari mehnat vich mainu te sirf ik hi farak nazar aaonda hai. ke asi baahrley os boli te rehtal di ideal form lai roula paaonde haan te othey ise shai di milavat wali form nu. EH TE VEER MEREYA CHANGE KAM DA MUDH(SHURUAAT) TE JIVEN SEYAANEY KEHNDEY NE KE GHAR TO HI BJHDA HAI TE PUNJABI JITHE V VASSEY NE OSEY HI THAAN NU VPS(VIRTUAL PUNJABI SOOBA)BANA LEYA HAI ;-) bhul chuk lai maafi PUNJABI JINDABAD

Name:	Chaudhary Sher Bahadur Sipra - May 04 2004
E-mail:	guru_jat@hotmail.com
Comments:	most of the young generation of pakistanis punjabis do not even know who bulle shah or shah hussain were. they have no idea that even muslim jatts used to participate in vaisakhi and celebrate it. we cant just talk and write about these issues. we cant do anything cause we are thousand of miles away from our motherland. if we loved it we would be there trying to improve it but rather we are sitting away and just talking about how people back home are forgetting their culture. please give me a break. crying over language, traditions and culture not being the same.

Name:	Saeed - May 04 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Uchchey burj lahore de Subrahmanya Chandrasekhar [S. Chandrasekhar - Noble Haurate] He was born in Lahore (then a part of British India) on the 19th of October 1910. His father, Chandrasekhara Subrahmanya Ayyar, an officer in Government Service in the Indian Audits and Accounts Department. His mother, Sita . His early education, till twelve was at home by his parents and by private tuition. In 1918, his father was transferred to Madras where the family was permanently established at that time. In Madras, He attended the Hindu High School, Triplicane, during the years 1922-25. His university education (1925-30) was at the Presidency College. He took bachelor's degree, B.Sc. (Hon.), in physics in June 1930. He took his Ph.D. degree at Cambridge in the summer of 1933. During last two years (1928-30) at the Presidency College in Madras, He formed a friendship with Lalitha Doraiswamy, one year junior. This friendship matured; and they were married (in India) in September 1936 prior to joining the University of Chicago. Subramanyan Chandrasekhar died in 1995. (courtesy: http://www.unom.ac.in/personpage.html

Name:	Saeed - May 04 2004
E-mail:	saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location:	Pindi, Punjab Pakistan
Comments:	Uchchey burj lahore de Subrahmanya Chandrasekhar [S. Chandrasekhar - Noble Haurate] He was born in Lahore (then a part of British India) on the 19th of October 1910. His father, Chandrasekhara Subrahmanya Ayyar, an officer in Government Service in the Indian Audits and Accounts Department. His mother, Sita . His early education, till twelve was at home by his parents and by private tuition. In 1918, his father was transferred to Madras where the family was permanently established at that time. In Madras, He attended the Hindu High School, Triplicane, during the years 1922-25. His university education (1925-30) was at the Presidency College. He took bachelor's degree, B.Sc. (Hon.), in physics in June 1930. He took my Ph.D. degree at Cambridge in the summer of 1933. During last two years (1928-30) at the Presidency College in Madras, He formed a friendship with Lalitha Doraiswamy, one year junior. This friendship matured; and they were married (in India) in September 1936 prior to joining the University of Chicago. Subramanyan Chandrasekhar died in 1995.

Name:

Javed Zaki - May 03 2004

E-mail:

Comments:

Akhilesh Ji. You are right. I do not know how a well-informed person like Shafqat Sahib could have overlooked it. "Guru Ram Das Ji was born on September 24, 1534 to simple God-fearing parents, Hari Das and Anup Devi of Lahore."

EhnaaN jiyyaaN histiyaaN paroN ee te aakhiya jaNda e,

"Kih shanaaN Shehr Lahore diyaan
Ethe wigRiyaaN gallaaN sor diyaaN".

"Oche burj Lahore de te". Javed Zaki

Name:

suman - May 03 2004

E-mail:

suman@thisandthat.com

Comments:

For those in the Los Angeles/OC area. Shahid Nadeems play on Bulle Shah is going to be performed as a staged play-reading on Saturday 8 May at Cal State Northridge. Another one of his plays,'Mujahid', is also going to be performed here, but please check before you go). Discussion events follow on 12 and 13 May.

He will also be doing something in the San Francisco area but I do not have those details yet.

www.angelsgateart.org 310 407-3529.

Name:	suman - May 03 2004
E-mail:	suman@thisandthat.com
Comments:	For those in the Los Angeles/OC area. Shahid Nadeems play on Bulle Shah is going to be performed as a staged play-reading on Saturday 8 May in this area. He will also be doing something in the San Francisco area but I do not have those details yet. For those who are interested, here are the details. The Network of Culture and Media a program of Angels Gate Cultural Center presents its first international residency featuring: poet and free speech activist Goenawan Mohamad of Indonesia & playwright and journalist Shahid Nadeem of Pakistan 3 events - 3 locations around Los Angeles Saturday May 8 through Wednesday May 13th, 2004 all events are free and open to the public + + + + + + + + + Saturday, May 8 2 - 9 PM "Art and Ideas from Indonesia and Pakistan" An outdoor festival of plays, poetry, live music, discussions, film screening, and more ( Bulle Shah and another one of his plays 'Mujahid' will be performed here, but please check before you go) with works by Goenawan Mohamad and Shahid Nadeem performed by: Naila Azad, Page Leong, Natsuko Ohama, Sunkrish Bala, Yawar Charlie, Avner Garbi, Kavi Raz , Ali Khan, Shishir Kurup, Subash Kundanmal, Sunil Malhotra, Peter James Smith, Iqbal Theba, Omi Vaidya and other leading actors from L.A.�s theater community - tea and delectable cuisine will be served - at: Sierra Quad, California State University, Northridge (CSUN) PARKING available in structure B5 , off Darby Avenue, on the CSUN Campus (www.csun.edu/maps/cm1.html) + + + + + + + + + + Wednesday evening, May 12 7 - 9 PM "The Role of Democracy in South and Southeast Asia" a panel discussion with Mehran Kamrava, Nikki Keddie, Karen Leonard, Jack Miles, Goenawan Mohamad and Shahid Nadeem moderated by Amir Hussain at: the Japanese American National Museum, George and Sakaye Aratani Central Hall Little Tokyo + + + + + + + + + + Thursday evening, May 13 7 - 9 PM "ART + IMMEDIACY; The Interweaving Roles of Art and Journalism" a public discussion with Goenawan Mohamad and Shahid Nadeem Moderated by L.A. Weekly�s Steven Leigh Morris at: Angels Gate Cultural Center, Bldg. H San Pedro + + + + + + + + + + for further information and directions, visit www.angelsgateart.org 310 407-3529

Name:	gursharan - May 03 2004
E-mail:	y@y.com
Location:	reston, va USA
Comments:	Hello All, after a great input by almost everyone on the Akkhaan I was wondering if we can start another thing How about "chhand". These are the couplettes when after wedding ceremony the groom goes to the bride's house with his brothers and some friends for some time to do some Rittaan and groom's saaliyaan stop him at the front door of the house and ask him to sing some chhand before he can enter in the house. I remember some of those were really funny. I don't know if it still happens in these days but can be a journey down the good time people had at their wedding or someone's else's wedding. SO WHAT YOU GUYS THINK let me start with one Chhand paraage aaiye jaaiye chhand sun ke paingi Has Sohra mera truck varga te sass local bus bhavain Jehra marji...Jaaye!He.He.He...

Name:	Akhilesh - May 03 2004
E-mail:	HiTMaN9497@aol.com
Location:	, Europe
Comments:	Dear Javed Zaki Ji, Thanks for sharing that book review but i would just like to point out that along with Guru Nanak, Guru Ram Das (the 4th Guru) was also born in West Punjab (I think Lahore distt). Is there anyway you can correct the article?

Name:

Javed Zaki - May 03 2004

E-mail: