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| Name: | sherpal singh korotana - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal_singh@hotmail.com |
| Location: | klang, malaysia |
| Comments: | heya again, well being in malaysia has been a blessing for us.....despite being third/fourth generation of punjabis, we still remember our homeland punjab, and even know the villages our fore fathers left....like i can trace my hometown to Fareedkot(after Baba Fareed in 'east' punjab) as well as Hazara close by to Islamabad(in 'west' punjab)... our forefathers left even before the partition, and this has always made them adhere strongly to their punjabi brotherhood, and not to the current political scenes and divisions in punjab...now this, i am proud about....being such a tiny minority in malaysia, and considered a totally different ethnic then the indian population, it has given us a new lease of identity...to legally call ourselves as Punjabis, now our people fought for our seperate identity, to maintain our integrity... anyways, regarding the Quran that Bushra has brought upon, i must state that like all holy scriptures, it has always promoted equality, and the liberation and freedom that women had gained during the jahiliyah state of the arab society is equivalent to today's modern women being allowed to rule a whole batallion or army...we must remember, at the period of pre-Islamic birth, women werent allowed to do anything, neither were they allowed to speak out, and even sold freely like cattle.....wife and daughters had no meaning...women werent allowed to own anything, cause they themselves were property...but this had dramatically changed during the period of Quran, where women were entitled to inherit property(a very very big leap in women's fight of liberty)..even more, young girls were no longer forced into marriages, because the Prophet had set the age to puberty which is only common sense, because at the ancient times, people were silly enough to not be able to distinguish a young girl from a lady... we must also remember, it may be stated in the Islamic laws that a daughter would inherit less from her father then her brothers, but it is also stated that the amount she inherits is hers and hers only, unlike her brothers, she doesnt have to share it with her family...so u see, for people 1400 years ago, that meant a true liberation to women's freedom, giving them the right to inherit, to own, to be dynamic once again in society, and not used in gambling exchanges... as to the reason why women were asked to cover their aurat, its simply because at that time lawlessness was roaming wild in the arab countries, and they realised for raping etc to be stopped, there needed to be a two way action to this disgusting act of the jahil society, that is woman should protect themselves as well as men needed to protect their women, and not allow them to be sold off cheaply in some gamble bid...so u see, how highly the Quran had already brought the woman standards too? in comparisn to todays standards, it means woman had become really really liberated...its unfortunate that the society had left the degree of liberation with what it was, and not enhance it and review it in par with the change of time..... of course there was the reinassance of Islam where while the west was butchering people with psychotic problems for fearing they were possessed by demons, the muslims world had already created aromatheraphy baths, nice comfortable areas to treat them instead...look at the difference then and today? i dont know, but i am SURE soemthing went wrong along the way, something that put an end to dynamicity and begun ignorance, prolly to maintain his own power....the famous chemistry we know today as well as the new design of human anatomy is also the design of the islamic reinassance... you see, i can easily point this out to one thing, that the people in power had already been allured by the form of their faith and not the content...its like a man who is crazed by the physical of a woman and not her heart and warmth(doesnt this remind us of our human nature??our ignorances?).....they were more worried about how a woman should be rather than how she should be treated....well i am a sikh, and i must say that i dont have a turban on, nor a beard..its because, i dont feel the need to, i mean i wish well to sikhs who do keep their untrimmed beard and hair and turban, but just cause i dont have one, does it make me any less sikh or even any less kind and nice? does it make me any closer to god? u see, how we look doesnt matter, its how god looks at us...and this, we should all remember.... its about time we realise what our faith has been teaching us all along, ie unity, love, compassion and respect...and yes, respect for everyone of every faith... i had my god brother from Islamabad here for some years and he has left for further studies in the UK recently..he was staying with us for a while studying at a local college, accountancy, and we had him at home, we made sure all the dishes were completely halal(we too ate the halal food although traditionally sikhs eat the jhatka(killed in one blow) meat, but we arent very staunch in everything), we made sure he had his clean sheet of cloth to pray upon..so u see this great degree of respect? and he too had great respect for us...u see the reason my dad helped him out is cause he was a punjabi,sade khoon hi ah , and more even an insaan who needed help....and we did... if one remembers the Medina accord, he would remember how the prophet cleverly assigned the duties of the Muslims towards their minority brothers, so u see he gave them the responsibility of caring for their minority, and not hating them, instead respecting them... u see all great leaders have led us to enlightment, but we alwasy turn back.....take baba Nanak for example, who risked his life saving the pathan muslims form being prosecuted by the foreigner who had already taken over their homeland and intended to kill them all....u see, true love transcends everything, from religion to race....its unfortunate that we always keep strong to our ignorance, and not the love and respect our forefathers had taught us...maybe, someday, we would all wake up and see the bigger picture.... |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@pilot.msu.edu |
| Comments: | Rammah Ji! Please can you set both recent poems of mine in proper setting. Or let me know necessary fonts to do it. I will highly appreciate. |
| Name: | Zahra - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Bushra: I stated a perspective as perspectives do not drop from somewhere in the air. They are based on one's experience. The way I see or I react or I argue or I interpret has to do with what I see around me and I go through or I have been through. So your point on ours vs the rest of the world is light in weight. In my previous post, I have not brought anywhere the mention of Islam except from mentioning "Muslim Women." I only did that as Sherpal, living in a diverse community, drew a fine distinction on certain customs amongst certain people. Many who write on this board do not necessarily agree or disagree with each other being from either gender. How can you have a common consensus? Being Pakistanis, we have different way of looking at our history, our culture, our language and etc. Being Muslims, we do not abide by the norms of Islam in a similar fashion. Some are orthodox, some are moderate, and some do not believe in anything[still you cannot go and term them non-muslims]. I have skimmed through your points. No offense meant, as I said earlier, from my mind's perspective, I am way past these points. I do not plan on commenting. Beliefs and practices are for yourself. Being an adult and grown-up, you are raised with certain things and they stay with you whether you wear long skirts or shalwar qameez, abaya or chador, scarf or no scarf, jeans or lehnga. You are too caught up in logistics. Religion is all in "INTENT" for me. If a man divides his assets by religious law and does that with bad intention then he will get that reward from God. If a man, marries off his daughter to get rid of her, so he can give away his assets to his sons, he will get the reward on his action. If a woman wears Purdah and has an evil heart and spirit, she will be rewarded for what she stands for. If a woman wears Purdah only to please God, she will have her reward from God. If a woman has to wear hijab and scarf due to her family men and she doesn't feel like taking that - again, that's between her and God. Again, education with proper understanding on the norms of life, is a big thing. It's not a luxury; it's a responsibility.
The following is my email signature. I often change twice or thrice a year and find something beautiful. I read this a few months back and I cannot take it off. Dil Naeen Mun Da!
"No matter how much the teacher strives, |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Dear Zahra: I read your postings with interest because we are the only regular females on this forum. You are a lucky person to have parents like yours. I will say that my own perspective is different because I try to look at things not only from my personal experience but try to understand how things work in our society what are the values, customs, attitudes what is right or wrong not that whether it applies to my own life or not .. and what are the root causes? I will say that is useless to advise parents to treat their children equally etc it may work for a small minority who are open to such advice. But looking at the Pakistani and West Punjabi society at large I am sorry to say that there are deep rooted cultural and historical reasons behind the way women in general not in yours or mine families necessarily are treated. I am even more sorry to say that our religion, Islam, is the MAIN cause of why women are not treated equally in ALL Islamic societies there are clear cut, unambiguous, undisputed, not open for too much different interpretations edicts and orders against equal treatment of women in Quran not by any ignorant or crazy mullah but by the Quran itself. From the birth of Islam, down to our times, all religious scholars have been of the same view that women are not to be treated equally with men at least not inline with the modern view of women equality. To give you one exmaple: Islam requires women to observe PURDAH .. clearly ordered in Quran . One can dispute about the form of purdah but cant deny the clear instructions of Quran that require women to hide their zeenat those physical features that differentiate a women from a man - or however you interpret it from all men except a handful of very close relatives. Without going into the details of other anti women equality edicts, just think about the disadvantage women have in Islamic societies due to this purdah or zeenat hiding order and think about the potential of abuse of this Order Taliban being a modern example - but throughout Islamic history, this edict has been used to assign a secondary position to women as compared to men and it is still enforced in all Islamic societies in one form or another. Now, if my father or your father decide to allow us to ignore this clear order of Quran, we are two lucky women because our fathers have put our wellbeing above what Quran has ordered. How about the millions others for whom any order of Quran is a matter of life and death and they would rather overdo it then take the risk of taking too much liberties and be punished? Can this root cause be cured by just advising everyone to treat their daughters equally with their sons? Can we do that without any reference to what to do about the Quranic order of purdah. You and I can change our lives with the approval of our fathers, but womens condition in Islamic society cannot change until we find some way out of the many anti women equality edicts of Quran. There is no way around it our societies have to some how find a way to deal with this dilemma the whole world has reached a consensus that women and men are equal unconditionally totally no if, when, how, and but (that are favorite of Mr. Mahmud Fahim). Quran on the other hand has many if, when, how and but for equality of women with men. This means that we first need to redefine our religion we need to come to a conclusion as a society not just yours and mine family that some of the Quranic orders are no longer applicable may be they were good for people who were living in the desert 1400 hundred years ago but are no longer relevant to todays conditions. We need to say that loud and clear, openly and explicitly, we need to reach that conclusion intellectually need to convince our religious leaders on this. Individually we can chose to just ignore these edicts but the reality is that just ignoring will never work if you truly want to eradicate this centuries old stigma on Muslim women and the mindset of Muslim men who take it as granted and even required by Islam to subjugate women. Let us face the problem heads on and the problem is what is ordered in Quran about women that is the root cause of Muslim societies attitudes about women. I am sure in your family is so enlightened taht no difference is made between men or womens inheritance again totally ignoring Qurans explicit order. I say that if all Muslim families just like your family will have the courage to ignore all of Qurans anti-women orders this will become a better world. |
| Name: | Zahra - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Javed Zaki: I could not understand the poem/geet you wrote for women or I should say in support of women. Could you please explain that to me. I understood your other work, but this poem was a little difficult for me. Mujhae Bilkul Samajh Naheen Ayee... :(
Just to give a personal example: By the grace of God, I am gifted with parents who have strong values but are open minded/progressive and will always stand by me in all the decisions I make. I have been rarely challenged on my judgements and decisions. I cannot take any credit there except for thanking Allah Taala for the supportive family I have. Someone mentioned something earlier regarding a woman having permission from the wali on marriage and the issues with that. I am not sure if you ever read the case of Saima Waheed. It was big family drama that took place in Pakistan in 90s. I was of the opinion that the relationship between the father and daughter should have been so strong and open that the daughter is able to openly mention her dreams and desires/aspirations to her father. Yes, sometimes some people can have strange parents as well who are driven by their egos and way of thinking, but that is again going back to my initial theory: women need to inculcate in their kids the basic training on gender equality. So when the sons have kids they consider them equal. When the daughters have kids they treat them equal. And this happens, regardless of the fact whether you are from clergy or from any other social strata . Just to give you a personal example, my parents would always always stand by my decision to marry whoever I like to; but I would not like to consider someone who they disapprove of. Somehow, knowing them, I know they would NEVER refuse my choice; whereas, I would ALWAYS like to have their blessings in my life. It is unimaginable for me to even consider anything in my life without their blessings. But again, it saddens me that we keep on bringing these issues from zamanae' qadeem. I have read about these things in my childhood on zamanae jahiliya. I am way past these silly barriers. And I would not even like to spend time on contemplating on them. There are far more important things in life to worry about and look into -- depends on one's way of thinking. Time to go...Take Care! Parents who treat their kids as their best friends and leave the channels of communication open are the best and darling ones :)! |
| Name: | bawa - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | bnanno@altavista.com |
| Location: | Leioa, Spain |
| Comments: | Dear Sherpal Singh and everyone,
It was very good to read your opinions. I think Malaysia could be an excellent example of how most people can live together and even enjoy each other's culture/religion, whatever and the world is a better place for it.
Also, although it is not in Punjabi (apologies), I liked this extract from an Urdu nazm by the poet Mohinder Singh Bedi, when he was invited to a Muslim/Urdu conference and some people raised some objections because he is a Sikh. It is called "Hum kisi deen se hoN quaaile kirdar to heiN", you can hear it at this link |
| Name: | sherpal singh - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal_singh@hotmail.com |
| Location: | klang, malaysia |
| Comments: | dear zahra and javed , firstly, thank you for understanding what i had to say, and it means alot.... well and javed, i am glad that u actually presented that beautiful 'kaafi' to me, well u see how beautifully our fore fathers thought? no wonder their legend lasts forever... well and as for zahra's view that she is a woman and its upto her to decide her fate, bravo! remember, even the Prophet's wife, Khatijah bt. Khuwailid, was a successful business woman, he did not have her captive in a home with black tinted windows....they were a dynamic and successful couple...then why are some punjabi muslims actually bringing in ancient arabic cultures that the Prophet himself did not adhere and opposed!? i even know of punjabi sikh girls who nowadays wear white on their wedding day saying thats sikhism, but is it???? i mean red has always been a punjabi colour to symbolise fertility and a woman's marriage life, does it mean just cause we are muslims and sikhs its time we throw off all our identity? so what makes us think white is purer then red? arent they just colours, all being creation of God? who are we to decide which of God's colour or people are better or worse?? there is this verse in the Granth sahib that goes "as the qazis and the pandits forget their godly duties,it is satan himself that now performs marriages forcing innocent women into marriages...and God hears the cry of innocent muslim women who seek His refuge via the holy Quran, and the same goes to women of both high and low caste hindus that also seek the help of God " thanks...bye..:) |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - January 10, 2002 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@pilot.msu.edu |
| Comments: | Sherpal Singh Ji! A tribute to your sincere humanistic ideals. I am posting a "Kaafi" of mine Kaafi Ishq namaaz meiN her ja neeti Farq na keeta mandar maseeti
|
| Name: | sherpal singh korotana - January 10, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal_singh@hotmail.com |
| Location: | klang, malaysia |
| Comments: | well, i am glad that there are sindhis who are already thinking of getting along with the punjabis...u see in the human nature, we love to divide...first among races, then religions, then sects, then school of thoughts.... thousands of prophets have come and gone, yet we all fail to understand the sole thing they have all preached love and unity well i know how the sindhis would feel, having the punjabis monopolise the state of pakistan, just like it would not be too much to say also rule the highest posts in india...i can understand the frustrations of non-punjabis well take the sikhs for an example, who started off as a group of unified muslims and hindus, today have also made a distinction themselves....even worse, they have come up with opposing sects...so u see, its time we all learn to unify, not seperate, we make a better chance of surviving our culture if we are unified.. and yes, the sufi culture is truly our natural identity....its unique, as a sikh, i have learnt that sikhs also consider themselves as modern day sufis,sufis praises of god, sufi believes are inscripted in every page of our doctrine, yet we fail to underwtand what it means , that it means 'love'....so u see, how similar we all are, yet how different or superior we all try to behave? its saddening.. how many sikhs today would readily call their god Allah or Ram?despite the fact that these arent just the thousand of words for god, different languages having different names.. i hope, that all of us would wake up someday, and get united , for our main enemy isnt each other, instead its ignorance....its time we do what our fore fathers did, live together ...wouldnt it be nice if we could have a Priya, a Sarbjeet and a Haseena walking hand in hand together instead of being divided by religion and countries and ideologies? maybe it would come true someday, maybe never...but if we could get along and tell people of how much we thirst and long to be united, maybe we would end up being united someday soon anyways....most sikhs,hindus and muslims forget that their faith is about uniting...how many people remember about the Hajjar rock in Mecca where Prophet united the four disputing tribes simply by offering a cloth to place the rock upon and shifting it....isnt it beautiful? such simple gestures for such long lasting peace? and the sikhs too should not forget about the mosques their Gurus have built , like the Guru Ka Maseed built by the 6th Guru Hargobind which today lies in the virtual east punjab(the fact is there is only one punjab, we are all part of it)......well i hope all of us could get together someday, sindhis and punjabis and realise we are so so so similar, in language, even in faith(isnt our faith all based upon sufi thoughts?)...doesnt the Sikh bible consider the Koran and the Puranas as both heavenly abodes?i hope we will all remember these similarities and discard our difference....*smile* |
| Name: | Zahra - January 07, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Please read the following link for the latest issue:
www.parabola.org |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 06, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Naseer Memon SaeeN, I am pleased to read your loving remarks. We too love Shah Latif Bhatai, Sachchal SaeeN and Sh. Eyaz from the depth of our hearts. I don't see any difference between Sindhies and Punjabies. Best wishes. |
| Name: | Naseer Memon - January 06, 2002 |
| E-mail: | nsaarang@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Hyderabad, Pakistan |
| Comments: | I am a Sindhi from Hyderabad, presently working in Islamabad. I did visit the website and congratulate you on this excellent work. I would suggest to add poetry of Sufis from all parts of Pakistan. Sufi's message is our common heritage since they are for love and peace. Sufis teach respect for mutual rights and tolerance. Our national cultures have enormous potetuial, we unfortunately made it forbidden tree. I might have political disagreements with political leadership of Punjab but our love and respect for punjabi culture is unquestionable. In fact Sindhi's were often termed traitor becuase of demanding their cultural rights. It is a matter of great pleasure to see that sons and daughters of Pujab are now working for promoting Punjabi language and culture. I wish you all the best Regards Naseer |
| Name: | Zahra - January 05, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Sherpal Singh: Thanks for writing your observations. Very Good Points. Religion should not create walls. Anyone who says that it does is a contributor to the mess, for he has not experienced enlightenment. Simple. Take Care. |
| Name: | Zahra - January 05, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Something to read... January 3, 2002 Pakistan's Welcome Gestures NY Times - Editorial/Opinion Section http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/03/opinion/03THU1.html |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 05, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Sameer Jee, I read your article "Obsession with borderline issues" in WWW.CHOWK.COM. It is wonderful analysis. I feel very close to your thoughts while reading it. What is strange affair that two person though living in two different worlds think on the same lines. Your two words theory "G & B" is great. Why don't you send copy of your articles to THE NATION (Lahore) and DAWN (Karachi). It is the time when people and government are becoming ready for the structural changes in almost century old mindsets. This change is now inevitable. Better do this job and guide the people of this land. Ehdey wich ee ehnaaN da bhala ey. I made a few copies of the article and gave to my close friends. The article "Rethinking the Kashmir Policy" by Dr. Manzur Ejaz has also been admired by our friends. Let me tell you that generally, what I do when I read any thing suitable to our present situation, I just make a few photo copies and distribute among my friends and the educated customers who come to my shop. Best wishes. Think about the welfare all humanbeings is a wonderful job and asaanooN eho jehey kammaaN wich ee eggay wath chaR kay hissa pauna chahi da ey. |
| Name: | sherpal singh - January 04, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal@yahoo.com |
| Location: | KLANG, malaysia |
| Comments: | well salaam to everyone, i would just want to point out, that it is my pride to actually visit this website and realise that there still are punjabis in thie world who consider themselves as one, equally one. remember, we are from punjab, 'the land of five rivers'.....it can not function as just east or west, we function as one nation, one blood. how can we call ourselves punjabis if we are disunited, can punjab simply be called punjab by having 2 or 3 rivers?we need all five of them, together.. remember, our land is being bordered by nations who couldnt be bothered about our culture.. i would just want to point out this poem that Kabir Bhagat wrote that is also inscribed in the Granth Sahib of the sikhs.it went about soemthing like the below: 'awal Allah ne noor upaya, Kudrat ke sabh bandey, us noor ne is jagat upjeya, kaon bhaley kaon mandey?' all i want to remind my fellow punjabis is, we are so similar, yet we ten to magnify our tiny difference.who are we to comment on who is good and who is bad? living in a foreign country in malaysia, where we punjabis stand up for each other has left me puzzled about my fellow people in UK and punjab who have so much of hate and mistrust. my mom's best friend, who is a muslim punjaban actually tried all she could to put me into the International Islamic University to do medicine, she is more like my mother's sister. so u see, at the end of the, its us who stand up for each other, remember, blood is thicker than water. at the end of the day, the first gurdwaras built in malaysia were built by hindu, muslim and sikh punjabis, and its this same gurdwaras that served the punjabi muslims who needed a place to lodge, food and money before going to the Holy land(Mecca and Medina)..the punjabi ladies worked together in the langgar hall, preparing food for all the punjabi families who were going to brave the sea to their respective holy lands, wether punjab or the arabia.. the few punjabi mosques and mandirs in malaysia were built with the help of all punjabi people, poor hindu, muslim and sikh men from punjab who saved every dime they had for the betterment of their fellow borthers..i remember my grand dad(who has now passed off) telling me that he helped to build one punjabi mosque not just with cash, but with his own bare hands, he said its where 'rabba vassda'(where god resides, thus worth helping...they were poor policemen recruited by the british, and today we stand tall with our pride, as Punjabis...now arent we all proud being punjabis? i hope, maybe, just maybe, someday, punjabis would again cross borders as their forefathers always have, and be united again, as what they were before the foreign influences......take care, bye |
| Name: | Raman - January 02, 2002 |
| E-mail: | raman424@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | thanks Mr Dulla Bhatti for those heartfelt new year comments shared by many punjabis like myself lets hope the situation ends peacefully |
| Name: | Sameer - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed: Here is couple of my other articles you might like reading. The article at chowk.com also provides a list of other articles on the right side of the page. The article at Sulekha.com is the latest one; it is about Taliban. http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?sameer_apr0301 http://www.sulekha.com/articledesc.asp?cid=160890 |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Sameer Jee, What a clear thought about life you have. I appreciate that. I love your writings which are full of truth. Best wishes. Saeed |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Sameer Jee, What a clear thought about life you have. I appreciate that. I love your writings which are full of truth. Best wishes. Saeed |
| Name: | Sameer - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Location: | New York, USA |
| Comments: | Let me try the HTML commands to write my posting here with tears in my eyes after reading DullaBhatti's essay and his new year message. One can feel it brimming with love and passion for our dearest culture. It is our responsibility to try our best to ward of even the remote possibility of nuclear ho;ocaust in south Asia with, once again, Punjabi blood spilling cheaper than water in the beautiful land of five rivers. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL PUNJABIS. MAY THE COMING YEAR BRINGS PRIDE, PROSPERITY AND HAPPINESS TO US THROUGH OUR CULTURE. There are many issues, I would like to touch upon here. To the question as to why Pakistani Punjabis are much more introspective than Indian; my answer would be that in Pakistan Punjabis constitute somewhere between 60-70 percent of population whereas in India they are about 7 percent. When the rights to a majority population are denied; it is very different than a minority being denied of their rights. Any person of mediocre intelligence can see the difference in acceptance of Punjabi culture on both side of the border with respect to their percentage in the nation as a whole. I would love to see all Indian Punjabis even doing better but the question to promote Punjabi culture among Pakistani Punjabis is essentially a Pakistani one although input from our brothers and sisters from across the border is greatly admired. Muslims in general are obsessed with the superiority of their religion and suffer from delusions of grandeur based on a grandeur that lasted about 300 years in the middle east and Iberia (Spain). However, this is not the only example of grandeur. The Chinese, the Indians, the Bantu Africans, and others were not neanderthals and living in caves during this period. They had their own civilizations which are not aggressively proselytizing ones. Not only Muslims but Egyptians, Greeks and Romans, Indians and Chinese also had periods of grandeur in the last 5000 year history of mankind. Not only Muslims tend to ignore this fact, they actually give bad name to the most grandeur of all, the Egyptian civilization. Just look at the time period they were at zenith and the contributions they have to the evolution of civilizations. Yet we through all their contribution in the gutter because of Jewith myths of their treatment there-although no historical evidence has ever been found to place this sheep herding nomadic tribe in Egypt any time in the history of Pharoahs. The lies and stealing other people's myth are passed on to Christians and Muslims through their belief system and dogma. Then the Christians and Muslims go out and teach lesson to everybody else of their mythical self-serving superiority. Due to this obsession to prove themselves and their dogma perfect, they rely on varied interpretation and bring up Quranic quotes and religion when anybody using common sense can say the same moral and ethical injunctions. When I see my mother or sister, I do not rush to Barnes and Noble to pick up a copy of Quranic translation and Fatima Marnisi book to see what Islam say above loving mother or sister and then tell my mom or sister that I love her because it is written in Quran and interpreted by Imam Ghazali. Same goes about all moral and ethical values which are secular and common to all humanity. Same goes with the rights of women in society and the equality of all human beings without regard to gender. I am not stupid to find through Brns and Noble about what Islam says about the rights of my sister when she is sitting in front of me and looking at me with all the love of a sister. I do not need education in Arabian culture of 7th century to decide about her rights when she is as qualified as I am. No Quran, Bible or whatever can over write the feeling I have towards my sister and sisters of others. Religions and dogma have a place int he society and that is limited to spirituality of an individual. I give a damn about any Imam, Sufi, mufti or mullah telling me where should I confine my sister or somebody's sister, Bushra. It is all upto my sisters what they want to do. I'll always be supporting them in the same way as they support my ideas. Muslims must use common sense before rushing to find what religious injunction says about anything. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, VA USA |
| Comments: | A glimpse of history from Daily Dawn, Dec31, 2001: The Chailianwala monument The pillar-monument at Chailianwala (not Chillian), the photograph of which appeared in Dawn on Dec 22, is not an ordinary war memorial as was described in the footnote. The Battle of Chailianwala, like Plassey, was the most significant of battles in the British history of the subcontinent. Whereas Plassey was the first one fought by the troops of the East India Company under Clive, this one was the last and final battle fought by them under General Hugh Gough (and not Lord Couch) against the Sikhs who were headed by Jathedar (General) Sher Singh and not Prince Sher Singh. Prince Sher Singh, son of Ranjit Singh, had been murdered along with his son by Ajit Singh in 1848. The Chailianwala Battle was fought on Jan 15, 1849. The tombstones on the mass and few individual graves in the necropolis reveal that the British troops comprised all nationalities of the UK like Irish, Welsh, English and Scottish. This famous battle was fought in two phases, the first one at Chailianwala close to the place where the monument stands today, and the second one, 18 hours later a few miles from the first one and close to the present day Rasul Head Works on the left bank of River Jhelum. Here the British who were in hot pursuit of the Sikhs did not find them in the form of a Jatha or a formation. They were found sleeping, not proverbially but actually, having tied their horses to the nearby trees. They were hence easily defeated and could never form up again. The Sikhs formally surrendered three weeks later thus closing the chapter of Organized Sikh Sway and Sikhashahi in the Land of the Five Rivers, the Punjab. They have done well to renovate/rebuild the monument. LT COL (R) SAMIULLAH BUTT Karachi |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Location: | San Jose, CA USA |
| Comments: | May God, Allah, Waheguru, Bhagwan bless the whole world with peace and happyness in teh new year. May my beloved land of five rivers be saved from nuclear holocaust. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Lastly, Life is a struggle. And I mean struggle in a positive sense. There has to be imperfection to strive towards perfection or I should say close to perfection. Yes, there are issues and there are various concerns. But that reminds me of the saying that one should look below oneself when it comes to being thankful to God. Even if men were 100% perfect according to women, we would still not be happy. Azad's words on "Insaan Kissee Haal Main Khush Naheen Rehtaa" are poignant, simple and very true. I was getting a snowman today, when I ran into a faqeer, who was requesting people by stopping them at each stop, "Could you get me something to eat, Sir? I am very hungry. I really want to eat xyz." This fellow on crutches said that so many times to all the ones who were passing by that it simply stopped me. By the time, I stopped for a few minutes and left, he gave me so many God Bless You duain that my heart filled with joy. At then, I told myself, who cares if the rest of the world has crazy idiots out there; as long as there are good people on the face of earth, they will run into fellow good ones. That's my belief! So, worrying about those who aren't as we wish them to be is being paranoid and a wastage of time. That's a very personal view. A very happy new year to all. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Uncle Kahloon: There is one thing that was left unsaid:religion, beliefs, practices, culture and values are all for one-self. There is no ehsaan on anyone else. In that respect, a secularists remarks on his individual existence can be valid. Can be or cannot be? Bushra: |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | Bushra Ji and Zahra Ji! A commendable analysis of the women liberation issue in the context of Pakistani and Islamic societies. Bushra Ji, if you happen to get hold of a book Male Elites and the Issue of Veil by Fatma Marnisi, please do read it. You will find it a very non-traditional, feminist description of the main issue of Hijab and other female rights. She massively quoted from ethnic Islamic material (Quran, Hedith, Seerat-un-Nibi and Islamic history) to put her argument in right perspective (off course, pro-women) and to disprove the anti-women stands of orthodox/conservative religious elements. She heavily focused on the issue of Patriarchy in the Arabian Society at that time and how it worked negatively to hinder the evolution of womens human rights. Well! Patriarchal institutions are still intact in a majority of Muslim societies. I must say you both have done a tremendous job to critically analyze the womens rights issue in the context of patriarchy in your postings. I strongly believe that women can only do it accurately as they are the ones who confront all kinds of differentiations and discriminations. A man can never understand it. Anyways, we (my wife and me) are working on a research proposal for funding to conduct an empirical study various socio-religious issues (Hijab, Gender segregation, Male domination etc.) of Muslim population in the Midwest. Let me post a poem of mine, which I dedicated to the Women Action Forum. The Women Action Forum along with other Womens rights Groups (during the authoritarian regime of Zia) had a demonstration in Lahore on the issue of the Law of Evidence. According to this so-called Islamic law (misinterpreted), a womans evidence was declared invalid in any institution of criminal justice system. These women were severely beaten up by the police but they never gave up and struggle is still going on (Rammah Ji! Please do the job and acknowledge my appreciation) ((((( Apne HaqqaaN lei laRan Waali Nabhar (who struggle) AortaaN Da Gaawan)))))) . Aj chiRaaN khhamb khhalaare .. EhnaaN udna aiN Ruj udna aiN Ja bena ursh kinaare. Aj chiRaaN .. . Jeevan rog (pain) sada neiN sahna .. JindRi gaalan lei neiN behna .. Jind malook, malook neiN rehna Chaane apne bhaare Aj chiRaaN Saanjh bane trinjan di boli Na koi raani na koi goli .. Apne huth sadhraaN di doli .. BhaaveeN shoh vichkaare ..Aj chiRyaaN .. RashmaaN dhote pindde bhaagan .. JeiN akhhaaN nit sooraj jaagan .. Jeevan shaala surt sohaagan JinnaaN paaR (differences) wangaare . Aj chiRaaN |
| Name: | Manjinder - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Sutluej@Hotmail.com |
| Location: | Hayward, USA |
| Comments: | Here are some lines of a song which is liked by every punjabi and hope you guys will like too. punjabiae jubaney ne rakaney mere des deye fiki paey gaye chehrey de nohhar median khelrey fere bulley deye kafiay ne kihney tera lah liya shingar. regards manjinder |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Dear Zahra: Thank you. I liked your posting specially because it shows your caring and concern. I agree with most of what you have said. Like you I also do not any more let any man dictate my life. My observations and complaints were not about my personal circumstances. As an individual some of us can take care of ourselves. I think it is not beyond us to look at what is happening to others in our society and why. It is perfectly OK to worry about one's personal circumstances but if someone like me also thinks about the situation of gender relations and status in our society - that should alo be OK and that is what I was writing about - not about myself. Unless you believe which I am sure you don't that I should leave the problems of society for men to resolve and only worry about myself. One thing that I want to know reading your posting: Can you refer me to the books of any established and recognized muslim scholar who believes that all the Quranic injuctions about the secondry status of women are now null and void(pardah in whatever form, lesser portion of parents property then men, separation of sexes, prohibition to marry without the permission and blessing of a wali or male gaurdian, different roles of women in the society - women primarily at home and men everywhere else and other family laws). You said that "Your argument on the Imams sounded very prejudiced argument. I am not talking about a stuck up maulvi." I have an interest in this subject and have yet to find an Imam who is not stuck up on the subject of women and will greatly appreciate if you can refer me to the writings of Imams that you had in mind. I am not talking about people who make a decision to ignore these Quranic injuctions in their personal lives because that only affects a few lives. But those Imams and islamic scholar who reject these Quranic injuctions as outdated and no longer applicable. Subjugation of women through pardah, separation of sexes and other means is a very very powerfull idea based on a very powerful vision of an islamic society that rules the lives of majority of women in the Islamic world. The islamic scholars that I have read differ on the severity of required women subjugation, but do not negate it completey and consider it necessary in one form or the other to keep a balance in the islamic society. If there is any islamic scholar that you know who in our times has openly challenged this idea and believes in unconditional equality of sexes, I want to read his or her writings. Again, thanks for your kindness and detailed reply. Saeed Farani: I am not well versed with Sufi writings. May be you can guide me to some that I need to read. Thanks |
| Name: | Zahra - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Bushra: I want to address some of your concerns and I am thinking keh kahan sae start karoon. Aur Kaesae start karoon. :) Ok, I will do so with a saying that "God helps those who help themselves." Being a woman, if you ever thought a man is going to come and tell you how to progress and succeed in your life, then you were/are out for great disappointments. Forget about the histories of all the empires and etc etc. concentrate on yourself. I am not a fan of reading the role of women in various histories and emulating them in any way or shape. I simply do not have the time for that. What I would like to spend my time on is myself as an individual. I would like to continue pursuing the goals that I have for myself. Remember, even parents after a certain age can only pray for the offsprings and be the advisers but we (the offsprings) have to be the doers: shape our lives. At the end of the day, what would matter to you: How Razia Sultana led the battalion or how Sohni died or how Heer indulged into the tit-for-tat conversation or how you are making a difference in your own life? Rest is stories. I love well-put stories. I love fairy tales as well. I also love to read the fine pictures drawn by Farid-ud-din Attar, Rumi and Hafiz. There is a message in each story without any doubt. That story may talk about emperors and their empire, birds (as the conference of birds talk about in Farid-ud-din Attar's book -- you must read it), deception and the flaws of the society (as Heer Ranjha talks about) and other calamities right and left. Still they are stories. Ok. Just get the message and see if you can incorporate that in your life and then move on. Do not get caught up there. I think if you do not have a role model and have not seen one you may have a tendency to lean on the history a lot. Also, many of the successful women do look up to men for their wisdom and success. Why? Because there were not many women out there. Most of the civilized men have no issue with the other gender being in the same shoes as they are. But even their issues had some validity, if they ever existed. They did not see women in those fields, i.e. engineering, arts, sciences and etc.so they did not know if they'd be capable to withstand the pressure being women. They only saw women taking care of homes, and nurturing the little babies and etc. That takes me back to my original argument that an educated and enlightened woman will be far more successful in bringing up stable and great men than otherwise. Unfortunately, times have change and nowadays, there is a big mental gap between those, who know and know what they know; and those who do not know and are not willing to know what they do not know. I disagree with you on a few observations regarding Muslim scholars and how they perceive women. It all boils down to the upbringing of a person and how secure he is. If he is insecure regardless of being a scholar or not, he is prone to act weird and expose himself. I am far more comfortable with people who expose themselves as that way I am able to make a careful decision if I would like to sit in their company or not. Once you are out of your parents' nest, your company matters a lot. Do remember that human mind can be very easily corrupted, if the inside of the person is not strong enough (alert enough) to distinguish right from wrong; and make firm decisions and be able to stand by them. Your post drew a very bleak picture on the stance of women. Personally, I would not tolerate any man who dares to dictate my life. I am an individual and I dictate my own life; of course, with the guidance from within and also from people who matter to me and who I respect for their intellect, vision and farsightedness. Mainly, because I have not spent that many years to gather what they have learnt and I can immensely benefit from them. Sometimes, their suggestion may not sound valid today but can be useful tomorrow. Your argument on the Imams sounded very prejudiced argument. I am not talking about a stuck up maulvi. I am talking about scholars who are well read and well exposed to all facets of life. They are not sitting in one dark corner, taking care of their beards and corrupting the innocent minds with their malicious thoughts -- resulting in the end of many innocent lives (we have an example here). You need to be able to differentiate. How would you do that? Sit amongst the "right" people and do listen to your inside! The rest will into the right place itself. No one rules anyone. No one can. No one should. You can only rule, mould and fine-tune yourself. That's a big responsibility. Isn't it? :) Take Care. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Bushra Jee, I appreciate your great understanding the affair and I salute you on your such courage. What I believe and I came to one conclusion after passing 44 years of my life in a extremely backward Muslim society which is more hypocritic that all human beings are equal, either male or female. And this thing I learnt travelling all over the world, by living in various societies and attending even religioius ceremonies in those societies. Let me tell you openly that our Sufies or great mystics are preacher of equality among all the human beings. They negate all the ideas which supress anybody. They are believers of Wahdat-ul-Wajood.You just see that light, colours, fragrances of the flowers and many other things including souls in the bodies (dresses) are not male or female. And these all are the shades or tiny parts of almighty soul or Maha-atama or God. So when you disrespect or disgrace any component either female or male, you actually disgrace that almighty soul or God or creater or nature. When you pinch any body, he or she gets pain irrespective of this male-ism or female-ism. So we have to find or create a new world where we could respect others irrespect of cast, colour or gender. Leting down anybody is not the affair of any humanistic nature man. It is, unfortunately, all taming either taming of males or females. So now it is a time to change and tame the humanity in another way ie creating respectful atmosphere on equal basis for all. Woman slavery should come to an end. Woman should not be treated as woman but as human being and living souls. Best wishes. |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Daer Zahra: Thanks for sheding some light on the subject how women are treated in west Punjab and Pakistan. I read your posting very carefully and it is very good that you are writing on this subject for many years. I agree with some of things you have written and some not. I think it is not only the jahalat of men or lack of education that is the real cause, it is much deeper than that. It goes back to 1400 years ago when a certain model of Islamic society was first established. In that model, which all muslims dream to emulate and copy and make it a reality today, a certain role of women was decided, with some rights and responsibilities. It wouldnt be a problem if in that code of law, there was room for those laws to evolve and change with the changes in society. Unfortunately these laws are written in the book of God, Quran. Pardah, separation of sexes, lesser property rights, half weight to a womens witnessing and much more. No one has ever openly challenged the sanctity of these laws in the Islamic world. It is no accident that no where else in the world, even where jahalat and poverty is worse, women are not required to wear pardah accept in the Islamic world. It is not just difference in culture and tradition, it is those written laws that have been preached for the last 1400 years, unchallenged. There are of course a amall minority of enlightened families all over the Islamic world, like your family, but the majority still believes in all the injuctions against women. In view of most muslims, the place of women is at home, where they are supposed to serve their husbands and children, make then model men and slave women like themselves and that is about it. If you talked to a religiously educated muslim man, he will say, no, no you got it all wrong, islam gives this right to women and thst right to women but at the end of the day he will convey the same picture that women are a danger to the moral upbringing of muslim men, must be hidden away and kept in their place otherwise they will bring havoc to an Islamic society. They have rights, but with many limitations and their secondry place is fixed in Islamic society, based on separation of sexes and as secondry to men who are supposed to take most of the burden of running the society. Now, historically, Islamic societies have made many failed efforts to become enlightened but simply cannot get out of the trap of written laws. Once, Iran was an enlightened society as far as women rights are concerned, but when muslims who were religiously educated got their chance, they put them back in their designated status. Now the muslim cleric of iran are perhaps the most educated etc., but on the roads and parks and shopping palazas in Iran, moral police is watching women and would punish any women without a scarf or walking with a na-mahram. Shah Zahir tried to do that, give freedom to women and then came the Taliban and rest is history. Jinaah and his colleagues were educated in the west and very enlightened but then came Zia. In Saudi Arabia we cant even get a driving license. The point is that it is not just jahalat or lack of education or tradition the crux of the problem is what is written in the Book and cant be altered, at least in the view of muslim men. The end result is a mild form of slavery for women, but it is still slavery. And once you designate a secondry place for women, or minorities or any other segment of society, no matter how much you try to give them rights etc., within the overall scheme of slavery and secondry position in society, you cannot , never, ever stop abuse. Once you accept that pardah is must for women, then it is pointless to debate what form of pardah, how restrictive and how not, you have open the door for abuse and their will always be those who will insist on Taliban type pardah. Once you accept that women have a secondry position them men in the society, no point in debating how tiny miny the difference is just the idea of difference is enough to open the door to abuse. Rights or equal or they are not. If we accept the inequality the no point of debating how much inequality an dhow to reform it, but must keeping the inequality. In equality cannot be reformed, made more acceptable and human. There will always be abuses. Women will always be treated differently in Islamic societies as long as you accept that they must be treated differently. One needs to study the struggle for freedom and equality in those socities where they have finally got some form of it and also study the history of other subjucated people who were taught that your subjugation is good for you and your society and God also like sit that way. So shup up and act they way we are telling you to act. You dont know what is goog for you. Leave that up to us . Just like muslim men have been telling their wives and siters and daughters for the last 1400 years. You ask Mr. Fahim, he will not only tell you that womens place is at home, will also brings a lot of arguments in favor of this by pointing to mentally retarded chidren of women who are in the labor force and all the extremes in western society and will then say see I am only preaching a middle ground and the middle ground is no ground for women . All muslim men, majority of them are convinced that the society will be destroyed if women are not kept in their place. They are afraid of women liberation. They have ready made ghosts to scare women and those who believe in women liberation and will tell you, no, no, we also believe in women liberation but you see their should be certain limitations to this liberation and it goes round and round and end with the same old story of Islamic vision of womens place in society a mild form of slavery. There are many more points to be discussed but I leave it here for the time being. You are a very very lucky person compared to the large majority of women in the muslim society. You should try to understand the others plight, not in a superficial way, but by deeply analyzing the root causes. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, USA |
| Comments: | An Article worth reading: From today's Washington Post: How Islam Lost Its Way: Yesterday's Achievements Were Golden; Today, Reason Has Been Eclipsed By Pervez Amir Ali Hoodbhoy Sunday, December 30, 2001; Page B04: URL: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37263-2001Dec28.html
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| Name: | Dhagga - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dhagga@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Punjab, Punjab Punjab |
| Comments: | Respected Madam Zahra, You much quote Urdu peotry in your mails. What is wrong with you? Are you fan of Urdu? And doing joke with Punjabi. You don't think that Urdu is rival language of Punjabi in Pakistan? |
| Name: | Zahra - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Uncle Kahlon: Your last post was very well put and I could not resist but appreciate that. Also, I completely concur with your argument on secularism; your way of educating the secularists was very sweet. My respects to you! It's a very ambiguous term and I had a few suitors who enlightened me with their respective interpretation on this concept a few years back. I thought they were nothing but confused beings with a lot of ego. So, reading your perspective amused me a lot :) The Pakistani American Cultural Society in NJ held its Eid and New Year event tonight. Both the Imams who were invited there talked about the current situation between India and Pakistan and the possible application of Peace, Harmony and Tolerance there. In a way, it was extremely ironic and in a way it was very pertinent. In this day and age, if we can stoop low to the level of wahgah parades and tit-for-tat weaponary display then we better go back to the times of Moen Jo Daro and Harrappa. For our bodies, will be found in ruins and discovered after a century or so as victims of a childish war. I must commend our President-Musharraf for his cool-headedness in this time and the open-mindedness to hold talks. Advani and Vajpayee are acting extremely immaturely and are a shame to the propagated or well chanted practice of democracy. One of them caused havoc in the minds and hearts of the public, children mainly, by suggesting that they should be prepared to give their life for their country. He said that on his birthday to the kids who came to wish him. These were the news in yesterday's NY Times. The world is under so much pressure of preserving, guarding and giving sanctity to human life that it's so damn sad and disgusting to read the steps that are being taken by the Indian Government. On the other hand, Pakistan should ban all the retard and maniac groups who are creating havoc inside the country as well as outside. Who created them and who nursed them should no longer be a question or comment. They should simply be banned and crushed. This country cannot face another war on a piece of land. That land should be kicked out for all times to come. My sincerest apologies to the soul of my very dear late poet, Hafeez Jalandhari in particular, who spoke very passionately on Kashmir in "Tasweer'ae'Kashmir." Our program tonight revolved around Pakistan and the current situation. This is unbelievable what's happening. To both you and Dulla Bhatti: it must be a very moving and emotionally tormenting time when your families had to leave West Punjab. I have talked to a lot of friends and acquaintences, whose familes migrated from West Punjab to East Punjab. Interestingly, most of them are from the vicinity of Lahore. On another note, I ran into a Sikh Sadhu Jee in Manhattan a few days back, who showed so much love and respect for the land of Nanak Jee that I was immensely humbled and overawed. I have no concept of war, except for hearing that from my parents, who were traveling back from East Pakistan visiting my chacha and taya jan, at the time, the war broke out in 1971. My mother hid me in the bathroom at the airport in Dhakka, to save me from hearing the sirens and fighter jets[Well, being a year old at that time, I could not have understood the war sirens and etc...anyway]. Later on, when this story was told to me, I felt pretty bad that I was not allowed to see through the windows. My analytical mind could have gained more knowledge from observing that. Unfortunately, my shikwah was never well addressed :) Lastly, I wanted to briefly touch upon a point that Mahmud Faheem has brought up in one of his posts regarding the criticism on West Punjab on this forum. I would like to state a few thoughts to make sure that we are not bracketing the freedom many Pakistani Women cherish with the situation the Afghan Women are going through. Most of the women I attended school, college and engineering university with, have attained higher education and none were deprived of their basic rights. Well, majority of my friends, who studied engineering are here in the US, holding visible positions in Science and Technology. A lot of them are single pakistani women who have an independent mind and are in the age group of mid'20s to mid'30s. All these women were born and raised in Pakistan. And yes, majority had educated mothers, who are/were in teaching[government servants(including my own mother, who is an assistant professor) and medicine. So, they aren't the first generation women to come that far. Most of us are at least 3rd generation women amongst our families who have come that far. Aside from the surroundings, the individual enthusiasm contributed a lot. Yes, majority belonged to urban community and grew up there. But I have also known of women during my undergrad engineering days in early 90s, who came from very small towns, but did extremely well in their respective boards and were awarded scholarships for higher studies in medicine and engineering. There was a good proportion of some very bright women from Toba Tek Singh and other neighborhoods. All these women, I know from my university days are holding pretty decent positions in government as well as private sector as chemical, civil, mechanical and electrical engineers. None of them cared to throw away their hard work and the process of evolution and growth it brought into their lives. Most of them also had s strong say in the choice of their companions. Yes, they were the 1st generation women who took the big leap. But they are ready to stay and will stay inshallah! Also, we have jerks in our society without any doubt and the more educated and enlightened women we will produce, the more enlightened men our society will have. Our % is still not that high, and one can see the result of that from the mindset of our male community. Majority has not evolved with the passage of time. They have evolved in certain areas where they wanted to. It's just the same game that is played in tackling with religious matters. I have been writing this for many years that our women have come very far, but our men are stuck up and are stubborn and refuse to grow up mentally. Our men have shown immense growth in barbarianism, terrorism, luRna muRna, jehads, fasads and all the related fields. Personally, as a responsible, compassionate, observant, mind-reading and evolving spiritualist, I am disappointed with the progress of our men. That's the same disappointment that made me dislike the mindset of South Asians during my higher studies in the US. And I simply wanted to stay away from that abhorrent and backward mindset. Interestingly, men of my father's generation(60s-70s age group)were and are far more progressive in their approach, mindset and vision than men of today. Apparently, something has happened somewhere. For the latter group, I would only suggest: Time to wake up...tun tun tun! Take Care, |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | (((((A PRESS STATEMENT BY HUMAN RIGHTS AND PEACE ACTIVISTS OF INDIA, PAKISTAN AND KASHMIR)))))) .. Human Rights and peace activists of India, Pakistan and Kashmir have denounced the build up of war hysteria with one voice. We are deeply disturbed at the Indian Government steps in isolating and immobilizing the people of the two countries by putting an end to all forms of communications. This is a denial to the people to people contact of this region and is a serious folly, as it will only add to political polarization. The Indian Governments explanation of this move does not justify withdrawal of existing facilities which had helped to create a better understanding between the two civil societies. A country that prides on its old democracy is expected to encourage interaction between the people rather than damping their spirits. We hope that India's democracy will mature rather than show signs of aging. We condemn the recent attack on the Indian parliament and recognize the seriousness of it. Acts of terrorism, no matter where they are committed must be denounced and curbed. Regrettably the response of the Government of Pakistan was vague, limited and belated. The so-called Jehadism flourishing in our country is primarily detrimental to Pakistan and a menace to the whole region. Pakistan has leapt from crisis to crisis. Thepeople continue to suffer because of the flawed policies of the military regimes and their intelligence agencies. It is a matter of concern for all patriotic Pakistanis when action is taken by this Government it is taken after International pressure is exerted rather than in the interest of the people of Pakistan, who are the greatest sufferers of the Jihad policy of the Government. We had hoped that the dehumanized armed conflict waged in Afghanistan would be a sobering effect on the Governments of India and Pakistan. Instead they are getting carried away into adventurism. The people of the two countries are being used as pawns and the Governments are trying to divert attention from the key issues confronting survival for the ordinary person. Both Governments know that the Kashmir issue can only be resolved through a meaningful dialogue. There remains a huge gap in their positions. India refuses to recognize that the Kashmir issue remains central to the hostilities of the two countries, whereas Pakistan is unwilling to address it through other confidence building measures. We believe that these positions are self imposed as the two Governments are not sincere in ending the cold war between the two countries. Kashmiris are the worst hit in this conflict. Their identity and basic rights must be recognized. War or militancy will not do so. As a first step (outside) militant groups operating in Kashmir must be curbed and disarmed. This must immediately be followed by total withdrawal of the armed forces of India and Pakistan from both sides of Kashmir. These steps are necessary to allow space for the Kashmiris to decide their own future. We denounce the use of media for war mongering by both the Governments. Their rhetoric will only fuel to the tension and give rise to extremism. We call upon the people of India and Pakistan to prevail upon their respective Governments to defuse the current situation and take appropriate steps so that a meaningful dialogue can be resumed. The peace activist on both sides of the border will continue to mobilizepublic opinion against war and terrorism. In this regard we will take a message of peace to the Wahga border on 31st December at 3 PM. |
| Name: | Hassan Shah - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hassan.shah@wanadoo.be |
| My URL: | |
| Location: | Brussels, Belgium |
| Comments: | Bushra Khan jee, No problem, no tension on my part. I myself appreciate living in a free society as mush as you do. Thanks to this freedom, one can express one's opinion without fear,which is not the case in our native country. However,you would not be doing justice with this freedom if you use it only to attack those who disagree with you. You do have valid points, which need to be presented in polite way. So that people who, like myself, are siting on side line,not knowing which postion to take, could be convinced. "With us or against us" is not a reasonable statement, as much as your desire to send your opponents to mars. |
| Name: | P S Kahlon - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pkahlon@tnstate.edu |
| Comments: | some comments regarding recent posts; To Dulla ,you have given me some inspiration to write my life story of 1947 but that is for the future. ( My journey from Lyall Pur to the Indian border) To Khalid Ali; you have given an interesting information about the name of Punjab. In my earlier posting I wrote that one of the older name was 'Sapat Sindhu' which according to Sanderson Beck(www.beck.org/EC-vedas.html) . He says Persian often uses h where Sanskrit uses an s. Thanks for the information. so I think sapat sindhu=hapta hindu To Sameer : Your comment that I am non religious because I am secular. If that is true then Guru Nanak must be non religious because he advocated secularism.Then Mian Mir must be non religious because why would he laid the foundation of Golden Temple(for the worship for infidels according to some). Secularism/Humanism is also a faith in my opinion.In that environment each is respected according to their sex/creed etc. Through out the history people have divided according to their own benefits, whether it it is sex or religion or caste.I have little different opinion than yours about the equality of women in the Aryans. I suggest you read the history written by some one outside the Continent.Lest I offend some one I just ask you to go internet and review ancient history(Sn. Beck may be one source).Aryans were not Egaliterian ,You will find that theHarappa- Mohenjo Daro civilization(Pre Aryan) was much more Egaliterian.Every house was of the same size etc. I need to run, will come back to equality of sexes.It is a "KISSA KURSI DA".Those who have powers are not likely to give up easily.Prem Singh |
| Name: | DullahBhatti - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Location: | San Jose, CA USA |
| Comments: | On that September evening of 1965 when jet planes roared overhead declaring the start of war, my mother along with the rest of the family was rushing towards a safer place, my nanas (grandfathers) home, 25 miles away. She was carrying all her valuables with her and I was also present in that family caravan - a few months old fetus in my mothers womb. So everything I have heard about the war of 1965 is hearsay but the war of 1971 left many images in my mind that never want to leave to this day. When I hear the military build up across the border between India and Pakistan, all of a sudden I feel like I am a 4 year old boy in December of 1971 and all those images play in my mind. I think about all those numerous 4 and 5 year old children who might be going through the emotions and imagery that I went through 30 years ago. Punjab de jammeyan nu nitt mohinma - is an accepted truth of life by my elders. When Sir Radcliff sat down to draw the border of Pakistan and India between Lahore and Amritsar in late summer of 1947, my village - Naushehra Dhalla - became an injured casualty of his pen. It became part of India but its sister village - Bhadhaana (Padhaana) about 1 mile on the other side became part of Pakistan. That divided many friendships, relations and end of an era of my family history in that region. My father lost his High School in Bhadaana where he had just started as a 7th grade student that year. With that school he lost many of his friends, teachers, dukaan walas, he used to buy his lunch of chhollays and amroods from, and long walks in the streets of Bhadhaana that he never got the chance to see again although he spent rest of his life only 20 minute walk from it. Accepting all that and much more in the future has become a habit for us. One of those habits is dealing with the war between the 2 countries. I have experienced only one these wars, the war of 1971 on the Western front. When the war became imminent in early winter of 1971 most of the villagers sent their children and other portable belongings to safer places. I along with my 2 sisters were sent to my grandfather (nanas) home sometime in November while my dada ji, my parents and uncle aunt stayed back. Every few days someone will come back from our home and give us the news about what is going on back home. I was not much interested in that probably because I hardly had any idea of India, Pakistan and war. I was happy being at my Naankes home and played with my cousins. Then one day my dad brought the news that they have built a morcha in the front yard of our haveli. Although our village was close to the border, our land was on the Indian side of the village about 2 miles away from the border and we had just moved to the Haveli being built in the farm. Dad told that with the help of some army men they had built a very strong morcha (bunker) where about 15 to 20 people can sleep during the war. This idea got me interested and made me feel home sick for the first time in 3 weeks. I wanted to see our home and particularly see how our morcha looks like. Dad told me the location of the morcha in the haveli and I was using all my imagination to see how it looks like. Before that I had heard about fauji morchas being built around our area but having our own morcha in our haveli was fascinating. I wanted to go back and see my home and meet my dada ji whom I had not seen for weeks. Hardly a few days passed that war started. Fighter planes started roaring during the night even over my nanas home which was considered safe. My uncles had tinted all glass windows in the house with newspapers so that light does not pass through. When I asked why we have to close the glass windows my uncle told me - so that planes dont see our house and bomb it. That scared the hell out of me. I started thinking our morhca back home might be safer than this place and I was kind of upset with my uncles aerial defense system of turning off the lights at night. I liked our morcha better. I remembered, dad had told us that fauji jawaans who built it said that this morcha wont collapse even if Pakistani plane crashes into it. Now I know it was all shoshaybaazi, but back then Faujis words were very assuring. We spent all night staring at the plane lights and flares of bombs dropping here and there in the far horizon towards the border. Next morning my dad and uncle also came from home. They were trapped in the morcha all through the first night of war but with the first ray of sunlight they left home towards where we were. My dada ji insisted on staying in the morcha. He had couple of cows for milk, plenty of chickens that we had at the farm and lot of rice and aaTa. He said he knows how to boil rice and fry a chicken. He insisted that with the stuff he had he can last for 6 months of war - above all he did not want to leave his home in the safety of strangers. It was a matter of honor for him. He was not alone. Many other elders from the neighboring farms who were staying behind teamed up with him. They would cook their food during the day, water the wheat fields, milk the cows and as soon as golabaari started in the evening they will duck inside the morcha and listen to news on radio. Next 12 days of war became a routine after couple of days. I dont remember much about it other than watching golabaari every evening and after some time getting bored and falling asleep. Home sickness and excitement to see the morcha increased every day. After few days my parents and uncles were worried too about dada jis health. A week or so later someone went there and brought the news that Indian army has crossed over to Pakistani territory and our village is safe. Then before the last day of war the word came that war is ending. That afternoon my parents could not stop their eagerness to go back home. They planned with my uncle to go back and stay there as war seem to have ended. When they were ready to leave I insisted to go with them. I started crying and kicking my legs (my trade mark) creating a scene to blackmail them to take me with them. All through the journey we saw army vehicles, checkpoints, army camps, etc. although civilians had gotten the courage to get their necks out at the rumor that war has ended. We reached our home couple of hours before sunset. I was so happy to see dada ji and morcha. I was going inside the morcha every few minutes and checking its strength by jumping over its roof. The morcha was really big like a room with only one small opening coming out next to one of the walls of haveli. I guess the idea was that wall was shielding any bomb shrapnel from going inside the morcha. Many other people in the neighborhood came to our place. Women cooked food and made roTis which dada ji and friends had not eaten for 2 weeks. They were complaining that they were living on rice, eggs, chicken and milk only like they were malnutritioned or something. Everyone has his own stories and mood was very festive. Finally the war was over and our homes and village was safe. The festivities were very short lived. As the sun went down firing started again. Planes and bombs going all over the place. The cease fire was some kind of rumor that everyone believed to come home. About 25 men and women ducked inside the morcha. We had hay laid on the floor of morcha and bed sheets nailed on the sides. It was basically a big round hole in the front yard which was covered first with lot of heavy wood, mostly from the trees freshly cut, many layers of it and then covered with lot of dirt. Considering the bomb technology we had in 1971, this was probably not a bad morcha although nothing to brag about after seeing the caves of Tora Bora. I was the only child in that morcha. All night noise of planes, artillery bombs and firing went on. Dad was switching the radio back and forth between Jalandhar, Lahore and BBC. Every word was being heard by the elders in the morcha very carefully. Once in a while someone will ask for clarification. Every few minutes bomb noise will be so heavy that after it calms down one of the males will get out of the morcha and look over the wall and make a guess about the place where it might have hit. eh te lagda ay bagh wich army de camp te digga ay gola(looks like this one fell on army camp in the orchards) someone announced. When no cannon fired from the camp for few minutes everyone thought may be army camp about half mile away is really hit. But then noise of artillery blasting off bombs from near the camp was heard proving them wrong. In the middle of night amid a calm of about half hour when everyone was relaxed the biggest explosion came. It sounded so loud and close that it shook the morcha, some dirt pouring down through the woods fel on our clothes. It was certainly a close call, it dropped only few fields away from our home. My uncle got out of the morcha to look over the wall to see what has happened. As he got his head over the wall another loud one few fields away shook us again. He ducked back to the morcha quickly while everyone was shouting his name. At this moment many started doubting their own wisdom to come back to the war zone. Someone mentioned my name. I was listening everything ducked inside the rajai(bedding) very quiet and almost pretending like I am sleeping. When everyone was talking loudly someone said shhshhhhhh rolla na pao munda jaag jayega (don't talk loudly, boy will wake up). Next morning when it was over everyone thought I was sleeping all through the night. I told them I knew everything. I told them I was not sleeping but they said but you looked like sleeping. Do you remember when the big bomb hit? someone asked. I said in my trembling voice haan mainu pata jadon tusi kehnday si rolla na pao munda jaag jooga(yes I know when you guys were talking about me that I might wake up). Hearing that everyone cracked in laughter at my innocent remark. That was the last day of war. It ended for us and everyone was happy. To this day everyone who was in the morcha that night reminds me it whenever we meet. Within few days everyone came back to the village. Village is sandwiched between the border line and the defense canal built by India. One has to cross the bridge over the defense canal to go to the village. The bridge was broken and a narrow one was used by army. Many people whose land was on Indian side of the defense canal moved to their farms. Only few months ago ours was the only haveli in the farms but now half of the village started building theirs. It was convenient to be close to the farm where men worked all day. Exploded bomb shells were all over the place in our fields. Many of us kids will go to the fields and collect the metal pieces in spite of our parents restraining us from doing so in case one of them blows up. We would sell this scrap metal to the chhabriwala (bicycle hawker) and buy pateesa (a mithai) from him. Some of these pieces were really heavy and amount of pateesa we would get was good enough to make up for the war damage to our childhood. The army was cleaning up the area and although war was over they were there to stay for a while. They built some checkpoints on the roads, cleaned our school, and had a big open door projection screen set up near their main camp about a mile from our home. There they showed movies to the army men and civilians for free. That was also my first introduciton to cinema and movies. Looking at the way many other wars in history have turned out to be, our wars of 1965 and 1971 on the Western front were nicer ones. Very few civilians died and damage to property was also minimum. In the whole incident only one girl from our village lost one of her finger hit by a flying shrapnel from a bomb blast near by. Wars are not always like that particularly in the modern days of heavy explosives and fast technology. May God bless our leaders conscience. May saner thoughts prevail and no children of my land have to see another war. Let us use free time of our armies to build schools, roads and bridges for the 5 year olds to look forward to something. - Jagjit Sandhu |
| Name: | Abdul Sami Bhatti - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | youngpakistan@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/youngpakistan |
| Location: | , |
| Comments: | Here is a Sawaal Jawaab from a typical Punjabi Mundda and Kurri in New Generation Punjabi. Please enjoy it. I would like to wish all at APNA Discussion Forum a very Happy Prosperous New Year 2002. Allah hafiz Abdul Sami Bhatti ******************* Larkay da Sawaal ******************* Saadi enj dee wife hoay. Sarrak tay saaray kaheN key cute hoay, Parrosi jiddoon gall karan tay hatth which knife hoay, ************** 6'-6'2" jeddi height hoay uff tak na kare ainaa quiet hoay mainnon rani bana kay rakhay, tay fir zindagi delight hoay jitthay chahnwan jawaan, jo chahnwan karran, kujh ess tarran dee life hoay
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| Name: | Safir Rammah - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, VA USA |
| Comments: | Minahil Niazi: Let me note a few brief points, although much more can be said on this subject, on why is it important to learn our mother language.: 1) All experts in the field of formal education have come to the conclusion that primary education for children must be provided in their native language. Although children have the capacity to learn multiple languages, their native language provides the best and natural way to relate to their surroundings, things and ideas. On the other hand, a slower development of learning skill is observed when a different language is used as the medium of education in primary schools then the one spoken at home. Without going into much detail, let me quote from the constitution of UNESCO (courtesy Saeed Faranis book Punjabi Zaban Naheen Mare Gee): (UNESCO 1953:11) It is axiomatic that the best medium of teaching a child is his mother tongue. PSCYCHOLOGICALLY, it is the system of meaningful signs that in his mind works automatically for expression and understanding. SOCIOLOGICALLY, it is the means of identification among members of the community to which he belongs. EDUCATIONALLY, he learns more quickly through it than through an unfamiliar linguistic medium. 2). Native language, more than anything else, is the primary vehicle in the continuation of any culture. Words of any language have many and different connotations that can only be understood and appreciated by the native speakers and they carry with them the life experience of all past generations. 3). Native language is the only genuine and true medium of expression for any nationality, in particular for communicating their emotions and feelings to each other whether expressed verbally or through high literature. |
| Name: | minahil niazi - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | minaniazi@hotmail.com |
| Location: | lahore, pak |
| Comments: | dear apnorg.com i wanted some information on why it is important to learn your mother language.can u tell me how can i get it. its type of related to punjabi. |
| Name: | P S kahlon - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pkahlon@tnstate.edu |
| Comments: | Thanks piare Saeed veer ji, I have written to BBC and told them that 70% of Punjab population lives in villages and most of them don't speak English/Urdu/Hindi. If the objective is not to reach elite only, then they should consider broadcasting in Punjabi also. The letter was long but that was the essence. I hope some other friends will give their thoughts and consider writing to BBC. Happy New Year to every body and may God/Allah/Waheguru/Rabb/Bhagwan bring peace in the world.Saeed Veer JI , we love you all and sada khushi raho mere piare. Prem |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear APNA friends, Here is the correspondence with BBC. YOU can also try to write them. The lette which I wrote to them. > -----Original Message----- > From: saeedfarani@hotmail.com [SMTP:saeedfarani@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:27 AM > To: worldservice.letters@bbc.co.uk > Subject: General query > > To BBC World Service > > Name Saeed Farani > Email saeedfarani@hotmail.com > Comments Dear Friends, > I could not understand that there are over 140 millions speakers of > Punjabi language and you don't give any importance to this language > whereas there are many languages in your list of 43 languages in which you > give news but not in Punjabi. May I know what are the barriers in the way > of Punjabi. Love you all. Saeed Farani > The letter which I received from them: Thank you for your email. BBC World Service broadcasts by radio in more than 40 languages and there are Internet web pages to accompany each of the language services. The decision to launch a language service is based on many criteria. These include the availability of funding, the demographics of the target audience, the local need for news and information in the region where the language is spoken and the strategic importance of that region for Britain. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office of the UK government, which funds BBC World Service, is consulted during the decision-making process. Launching and maintaining a new language service is expensive and it is unlikely that we will start broadcasting in any new languages in the future, or add any other languages to our website as this is supported by our radio broadcasting activities. We broadcast to South Asia in Bengali, Hindi, Sinhala, Tamil and Urdu and because there were historical reasons for establishing these language services. The services continue today because they have large audiences, but there is no guarantee that any of our existing services will continue indefinitely. You will note that there are many other Indian regional languages in which we do not broadcast. Although these regional languages, such as Punjabi, may be spoken by many people, our research has shown that there will not necessarily be a sufficient audience for the BBC among these speakers. Research has also shown that the majority of our target audience in South Asia is able to listen to BBC broadcasts in another language, i.e. Hindi, Urdu or English, even if these are not their first languages. Regards Audience Relations BBC World Service |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Hassan Shah Jee! Tuhadee kee problem a? Tuseen kyoon tension ley rai o? You are right, If I was living in a muslim society, I would have been declared an outcast for speaking up and for my refusal to accept male dominance in the name of religion. Sorry my friend, I live in a free society and there is nothing you can do about it. |
| Name: | Hassan Shah - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hassan.shah@wanadoo.be |
| My URL: | |
| Location: | Brussels, Belgium |
| Comments: | Some serious issues are being discussed here by some even more serious people, which i'm not knowledgable enough to comment on. However, I can not help to say that Bushra Khan's outrageous behaviour is far from being intellectual. With this kind of behaviour she can not even win her immediate entourage, let alone her claim to change the world in one person's life time. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, VA USA |
| Comments: | Ms.Zahra: Wish you best of luck and we all readers will miss you on the forum. But we hope you will come back with fresh thouhgts and ideas soon. Very Happy New Year!!!!! |
| Name: | Zahra - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Bushra and Mahmud Faheem: Both of you are hilarious :) I just wanted to let you know :) Keep it Up!!! I have not read everything stated by both of you. But I am very sure that it will be very amusing and interesting :D Uncle Prem Singh Kahlon: I hope I have the right spellings of your name? I have your email address and would like to send you a note on a question that I have regarding Sikhs. I just ran into one recently and it was a very interesting encounter. Please keep on checking your email in the next few days. Regards, |
| Name: | Zahra - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear APNA Members and Team: Just wanted to wish you all a very happy new year in advance. Take lots of rest to rejuvenate and prepare yourself for the next year challenges. Aside from that, my special regards to Safir Rammah for adding excellent poetry and music selections here. Mr. Rammah, your hardwork in updating as well as fine tuning this site is highly commendable! I had a few comments on your poem. It is a little strange and takes a shift many times in the mood and the message. I have read it twice and I may have to re-read it to get the actual flavor and understanding of the surroundings. I am off for a few months and do not plan on writing at any place as it requires a lot of my valuable time and energies; and I need to preserve them for other important initiatives that take precedance. Still, it has been nice and sweet to read, listen, comprehend and absorb. With that said, best wishes to all and allah baili! |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Bushra Khan I will not go to mars but change my gender if the nightmare will come true. O.K and that's it. Regards. |
| Name: | Khalid Ali - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khalidali63@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/khalidali63/ |
| Location: | calgary, AB Canada |
| Comments: | I could not be happier,I have just found this website.We need more forums like this.Punjabis are probably the most influential people in the sub-contenent,and yet we have faced the worst form of descrimination both in indian side of punjab and in pakistani side of punjab.We have the history that can be matched by none in sub-contenent. Punjab in ancient Iranian books was called "Haptu Hindu".I will join this group frequently or at least try to. Both indian and pakistani punjab should work together to have a comon script for punjabi. I'll see u guys later. Khalid |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Dear Zaki and Sameer: Thank you for looking at the issue of women rights here and back home in the proper perspective. Dear Zaki, would you please do another favor and address Mr. Fahim's obsession with the high moral value of giving birth at home? He has proven the sanctity and practical importance of this high moral value through his discovery of the century that All but one US presidents were born at home as if all women who these days seek proper medical supervision throughout their pregnancies and give birth under the supervision of an MD are committing a crime against humanity and their punishment in this world will be that their children will never be able to become President of the United States. If our learned friend will look at the date of births of US presidents, he will found out that almost all of them with just a couple of exceptions were born before 1920's, when even in the USA medical facilities were not widely available or their families were rich enough, like George Bush's, to arrange the same level of medical facilities at home that are available to a common man only through hospitalization. Besides that, one need to look at the infant mortality rates, deaths of women during child birth and other medical complications that are prevalent in those societies where women, due to lack of proper medical facilities not just to uphold Mr. Fahim's newly discovered high moral value, have no choice but to depend on a half trained nurse or a daee. Sameer: You are right on the mark when you point out that the brains of our men are frozen in the Ghazali type interpretation of Quran. Our men will twist and wiggle out of all Quranic injunctions but have made women slaves of literal meanings of all injunctions about them. Women are the worst nightmare of any islamicist. Their life style is based on slavery of women. They know that once women will stand on their own two feet, their beloved vision of Islamic society will shatter for ever. I have news for Mr. Fahim: Your days of subjugating women are over. And don't try to spring the trap of middle ground between two extremes on us: where women still have to hide their zeenat, live in a society based on separation of sexes, have half the vote of a man and lesser property rights, have to tolerate second and third and fourth wife or get divorced and so much more - that is your middle ground - you can take your sacred middle ground and shove it wherever you like but can't make us fool any more. What happened to Taliban is nothing, wait till we wake up throughout the Islamic belt, in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan ... we are your worst nightmare and we are going to brake these chains of literal interpretation. You better take your sacred laws against women to Mars or some place else, because within probably your life time, there will be no place for these outdated and discriminating laws on this earth. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Most of the religious madrassahs and supply for them either in Jaish, Lashkar or Sipah is from villages where according to the thesis more equality of man and woman exists. Most of the killings in the name of pride take place in villages, either in Punjab, Sind or any other part of sub-continent. May be it was true some decades back that a person having two acres of land didnt want to marry his daughter to Mullah, but now he is not only marrying his daughter to Mullah but also put his sons in Madrassahs to make them Mullahs. It is very different from the other concepts of either religion or culture. It is economics and the Pappi Paitt. Its hard to see the ladies of the feudals in the villages without pardah or man. The mentality of the villager is very corrupt regardless of his religious beliefs. He has to maintain his source of income, so he does any thing for his survival. We can see the same psychy in all the humans. All the struggle and codes are revolving around this survival. The other big tragedy in the region which is more destructive than the equality of man and woman is the caste system. No one is serious to break these codes. All the forms of revenue, court and even college admissions ask your caste and religion from throughout the past documented history. This is also our history and culture. It is very hard to change these norms at the masses level. I was lecturer in a college in Jhang District and in 1998, the villagers of Kandiwal did not accept a Mochi as the headmaster of their high school. That person was at the verge of retirement and government did not find any other school for his joining, so he retired without getting that post. These are the extremes regardless of religion or two nation theory. Sometimes I thought that this discussion forum is only to condemn the West Punjab and Islam. Is every thing is perfect on the other side at the socio-cultural level? Regards |
| Name: | Sameer - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | I am saddened by the turn of current events in our part of the world and Punjabis may be spilling each others blood once again in the name of nations when my nation does not even make any effort - in fact stifles it - to teach Punjabi children in Punjabi language and teach them the proud history of Punjab instead of taking pride in Afghans, Turks, Persians and Arabs - anybody but proud Punjabis. Having said that I do not want to interfere with the topic under discussion. The main difference between Western and our culture, dear Bushra, is the potential and pace of change whenevr it is needed. Ours is more of a static type whereas west is dynamic. Whether it is womens' rights or smoking cigarettes, once west decided that enough is enough; they dedicate themself ferociously, religiously, rationally and decidedly to make a change. We [I exclude myself from "we" because I am non-religious, secular perso whose opinions are not swayed by the religion at all] on the other hand, put traditions and revelations above logic and rationality. In the case of revelations, it is not just the revelations but their interpretations also - particularly when the interpreter is long dead and was of Arabic origin like Imam Ghazali and others. You hit the lead wall anytime you try to break out of interpretive jam and religion becomes "deen" with answers to every damn possible situation till eternity. You are reduced to a flock of lambs with Imam Ghazali, the shepherd.....You have to study Punjab history to understand the current status of women. Since education is a modern concept of last few hundred years, the rights and roles of women in the past can not be judged by the education standards. There are however significant inforamtion available from pre-Islamic empire times of Punjab. Punjabi Hindus know it because the sources are Rig Veda and Mahabharata. Women enjoyed much more equality during almost egaliterian society of Punjab at the time of Rig Veda and before, that of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro period. One of the bone of contention, mentioned many times in Mahabharata is the freedom of women in Punjabi society which conservative Brahmanism of Ganges Plains looked with disdain [Brahminism devised caste system which was essentially a male-based distinction]. They repeatedly ridiculed it as if it was in contrast with Aryan value system. Most of the Punjabi tribes sided with Kauravas and came out on the losing end with Pandavas and their Ganges plains supporters victorious. Then came the intermittant Scythian (Sakas) rulers for almost 500 years which produced a kind of Punjabi racial difference from the rest although we do not know too much about the status of women during their rule. They were hardened fighters. This points to a higher level of male domination due to soldiery while women being homemakers remained important as taking care of crops and families while men fought. The coming of Afghan and Turkic central Asian culture in the garb of Islam brought about highly male dominated culture because women in those cultures were much less respected due to poor quality if land and farming as well as marshal culture of men folks. Unlike Punjab, most of the food and other needs were met by pastoral culture in which women were less important than agrarian culture. Moreover Punjab saw much more wars in sub-continent, being the fromtier state after Khyber pass, than any other culture. The society remained on edge constantly eith each winner plundering, looting, pillaging and taking women as slaves. The rights of women hit the lowest mark during this period. Arrival of British made some improvement and some slow improvement since the independence. Unfortunately this has never been the highest priority of our ruling elite. In this way, they avoid at least one issue to face the wrath of mullahs. The y are not scared of mullahs with feudals being least scared, but it is nuisance for them to arguing with mullahs who live on their hand outs. In villages, mullah is at the low end of caste or respect based structure. Even a person with 2 acre of land would not like her dayghter to marry village mullah. In cities, however, due to constant bombardment of sectarian Islamic religion, twisted Islamic history and government controlled textbook system has created a mindset where nothing comes even close to revelation based interpretation of values system. It is actually Karachi where a conservative from Jamaat-e-Islami has won the mayorship in recent elections and almost winning in Lahore, if not for dovernment interference. Jamaatis can not win in small Punjabi towns and villages for the reason I mentioned above. Acrually the rights and role of women in largely illiterated society of villages are comparatively better than in lower and middle classes of the cities. In the villages, they do not wear burqa and walk without accompanying male relatives anytime of the day. Thus it is the combination of the extension and interpretation of revelations deemed necessary by the state to keep a two nation theory based identity at any cost. I hope we realize that women are absolutely equal to men and let there be no doubt about it. We are different than the people living in caves of Tora Bora with no role for women. We are agrarian, we live in plains, women contribute equally and have been doing so even in illiterat but traditional culture. Why don't so called enlightened muslims of cities learn something from illiterates - for a change. I am sick of listening lectures about "Islam meiN Aurat ka maqam" and Islam meiN huqooq-e-niswaN. Stop actinfg like a lamb with mind in the freezer. Take the mind out and put the lamb in the freezer. Stop acting like robots of Ghazali. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Saeed Farani: I guess I thanked you for your response to my initial inquiry. I completely understood your input. You had something else there that I was not very sure of: kind of explanation of your already stated views or another perspective. I came up with two additional questions after reading what you have stated. They were not supposed to be personal. Interestingly, there was no aggression in the previous post. Yes, it was a highly opinionated one and that's how I am. Thanks for giving some tids-bits of a certain mindset. No more questions. Take Care. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Zahra, I coud not understand your escalating agressive behaviour. I gave you answer according to thought that you asked the question why women is having a gloomy character in our Sufi poetry. If it is wrong then please correct it or someone who knows it should correct. I agree to Mr. Faheem to some extent that both the extremes are not fair. If a women is made a thing to display in the West that is also bad and if it has been made a thing to play in our societies it is also bad. Take easy. I am not an ordinary man and learning things all the time. My love to my mother language is justified because there is no any nation on the globe except us ( gulible punjabies) who are sacricing their mother tongue for the language which has many lackings I mean Urdu. I don't want to quote a Punjabi proverb which is about one lying blind lady ( land of Punjab) and the forces having a Daang ( long wooden stick) which is being thrust forcibly. I am sorry that I could not make you understood. Take care and be cool. Best wishes |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dr. Zaki. Thanks for the posting and comments. In the area of human development, Maxine Baca Zinns two books Women of Color in U.S. Society (Collection of essays of different people) and Diversity in Families are great and show the competence and grip of the author on the subject. Regards |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | Dear M. Faheem and Bushra Ji! It is a very important debate, but please keep it cool. Bushra Ji, I can very well understand your reaction. Factually speaking, it is very well placed and justified. Some of the facts narrated by Faheem (socio-psychological attributes and achievements of children born out of wedlock or through other non-traditional marital unions) are simply not verified by various empirical studies. It is nothing but just a reflection of public image, which is based on the traditional value system particularly regarding marital union. I also found in my own doctoral research (based on the data from Sri Lanka) that there was no difference in physical development of children of working or non-working mothers. Rather children (3-36 months old) of working mothers faired better, however, statistically not significant . Bushra Ji! As for gender equality in socio-economic and political spheres (even in the West) is concerned, it still indicates imbalances. The differential in wages (79 cents to women for each dollar paid to men with similar qualifications) is undeniable fact. Then is the fact of ceiling glass. The traditional values regarding family and marriage institutions still tend to work against women (particularly, working women), but, off course, are loosing their hold. Specifically, within the last four decades (in U.S.A.) the norms regarding gender relations and gender equality in various fields of life have changed significantly. The structural improvement, a qualitative change in norms regarding womens roles and the Women Movements are the major factors, which are observed to have contributed a lot toward it (I would like to refer here a book (Family and Society by Beca-Zinn), which critically deal with theories and facts about the topic under-discussion. I have adopted this book for one of the senior level sociology course I teach)... The story of our society like all other societies dominated by feudal relations is discouraging, as Saeed Farani has mentioned. But we must pay our respect to many courgeous and bold organizations (and women), which are waging a relentless struggle to achieve their human rights. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Saeed Farani: Thanks for an interesting response. I do not plan on participating on the forum for the next few months due to my personal committments at work, but I think I need to jot down a few thoughts before I disappear for sometime. Why do you have so many passive sentences in your post? Who are they? You have referred to "she is made to and etc.." many time. By whom? As my question demanded a true picture, I think you tried your best to comply. But let me ask you something: what's your take on the matters that you have portrayed in your post? Would you see your daughters fall into the same ugly trap that you have depicted in your post? This is a personal question and you may not feel comfortable to respond. I will completely understand if you want to ignore my question, please just let me know if you choose not to respond. By the way, I completely disagree with your stance on the urban women and the kind of freedom they have. I have grown up in the same cities that you are talking about and I feel that you are portraying a very grim picture which is not indicative of the real scenario. I have yet to see any female in my family pushed into something they never wanted to step into. Yes, I have seen the scenarios that you have talked about, but times are changing. My generation(20 - 30s)would not tolerate any such nonsense that was exercised previously under the sham of "traditionalism." Most of the times, the oppressors of such sick societies aren't even aware of the religious norms. Yet, they love to chant their command and knowledge on such matters. I do not even think that it is 100% culture related. I think it has more to do with mental degradation and insecurity. Somehow I feel that you are telling me something as if I am an alien to my own culture. As far as your response to the questions was concerned, I would like to thank you for that, but I feel that you did not fair well with the other situation. Probably, that's what you have come across and that's been your observation. Now, here is a tricky situation. If that's your impression and observation, why would you like to promote that language which is based on a culture that believes in subjugating women. On one end, you took a very strong plea that it's your mother tongue; and I sense strong love and affection for that. Whereas on the other end, you are willing to accept the subjugation of the "femininity" of that mother tongue. Isn't there a qaul-o-fail kaa tazaad here? Or it's fine to worship the concept of mother-tongue but let go of the rights of that mother. I may be wrong in my understanding, I am interested in learning your take. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed, You are also a father, I believe that no parent can think bad about their kids and we get most pure love and prayers from our parents. It is a fact that the attachment of the parents and their kids in our system and culture is one of the best in civilizations. We respect our parents and find guilty if do something against their will. These feelings give us an enormous strength. Our system of government, education and division of wealth and land is so bad and unjustified that the economy at the individual level in the masses is at the verge of collapse. As far as the contribution of the woman in the economy is concerned, we know at the village level, they are contributing more than 30% of a house income. The need of this time is to increase the literacy rate. In Paksitan one of my friend died last month and his father who is 76 at this time and still working, went to the Drug store and gave the owner blank check every week for the medicines in advance. The kids are the responsibility of the parents and vice versa in our society throughout the life. Here it is cerimonial. The balanced thoughts and keep looking at our own roots and feet is the best way to stand in the world. The marriages are failed in every culture and there is no fix rule for the success or the failure. We see this thing in all types of marriages. The psychy of the choice by parents was due to less sociability and exposure of women in our society. As the time changes and the girls are getting education, the awareness is coming but under the limits either cultural, social or religious. Without these limits, society is a jungle. So by keeping these limits, we can find more beauty in the world. Regards |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | You are going in wrong direction.This forum is not the property of any one. You always try to condemn the male domination, which I tried to show over here also. I tried to tell you that the double standards are every where in the world and exploitation takes place every where, not only in Punjab or Pakistan. Just an incident can change all the definitions of human rights and all the equalities of so called advanced nations. You are a very wise person and got the right to decide about the intellect of others. So beside this duty try to give the solutions rather than to taunt. For your information, Jimmy Carter is the only American President born in hospital. In the Subject of Physics more than 80% Nobel Laureates are Jews, even they are a very little fraction of world population. Their commitment with their values without considering the world's views on them gives them a real strength. Regards |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Mohammad Fahim, Jaa Bhaee, koee hor kum kar. Eh intellectual discourse tere wus da kam naeen. Enveen edher udher dian maar ke sada sarian da time naa kharaab kar. Tere baree meherbanee. USA de sare university graduate te scientists jews, muqablaa es gal da ke koi women president banee ke naheen te USA de President ghar wich jame ke haspatal wich ... edey danishmand bandey naal aseen matha naheen la sakde. Rab Rakha |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Madam I posted that extremism is bad and the reality is in between the extremes. Go and read the http://pchoice.anu.edu.au/Timeline.html. In 1899, the women were allowed to vote. It was not the decision due to the protest of women but politically to make someone victorious in WA. Historically how many times you see a woman candidate for the office of president in USA. Yes I belong to a backward country and part of the world where many countries including my homeland, the women were the presidents and prime ministers in the contemporary history. You are still under the flash and trance of so called light which is just coming from outside and pinches your vision. It is not from your in. Secondly you are unaware of the fact that most of the scientists, thinkers, engineers, philosophers and writers belong to the Jewish community who does not believe on your value system. Their commitment with their religion, values, language and knowledge is remarkable. They dont believe in what you think and they are successful. The slogan of so called freedom is just a trap. Everything has a certain limit up to its normality. Can you please tell me name of any US president belong to single Parent? Even all the Presidents of USA born at their homes not at the hospital, except only one!!! The standard of values is very clear if you want to achieve any thing remarkable, but if you dont care about it, thats your choice. Regards. |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, Ny USA |
| Comments: | Fahim Saab, tuhanoon pehlaan vi sumjhaya see per tuseen baaz naieen aunde Janaab who the hell are you to claim that coming into work force is exploitation of women? Why dont you ask women whether they like to be the property of men, as Saeed has correctly portrayed their status in our society, or they want the freedom that is available to them in this society? Folks like you will never be able to accept the fact that after being exploited since ever, women have finally gained equality and freedom in western societies. You now find satisfaction in stats about unmarried couples, out of wedlock children, unwanted pregnancies, emotionally disabled children and so on - as if that is proof that women shouldnt have be given the freedom in the first place. Sorry, my friend, the genie is out of the bottle and you can never ever put it back. Whatever the ills of this society, men and women are equally responsible for them and it is up to them, free men and free women, to decide what price they are willing to pay so all of us can freely make choices about our lives and life styles. Have you ever thought about why the universities of this country that are full of children of single family homes which you believe are all emotionally disabled, keep on producing the best scientists, engineers, writers, philosophers, leaders etc.? May be the ills of society that you and people like you are so glad to lecture on in a moments notice are not after all that bad. May be these life styles are just different from what we are used to back home. May be we are going through a time of transition, from exploitation and slavery and lack of human rights to freedom and human rights and have yet to learn how to live responsibly with our freedom, through our own choice, not by force or coercion which is the hallmark of your society. You better fix what is wrong with your society, as explained by Saeed, instead of pointing fingers to others. The treatment of women in your society sucks and cannot be continued forever, no matter what you do or say. So wake up and stop lecturing women on how they should think, feel or act and what is right or wrong for them. We will figure it out ourselves. Thank you. |
| Name: | Hassan Shah - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hassan.shah@wanadoo.be |
| My URL: | |
| Location: | Brussels, Belgium |
| Comments: | Bawa ji, thanks for trying to help. I understand that its not easy to find what I'm looking for. Its more logical to expect to find shahmukhi books in Pakistan than in India. But I really doubt if Shiv Kumars works were ever published in Pakistan as I never heard of him while in Pakistan. Thanks to Indo-Pakistani politics. However, I have searched on the net and found some links which may be helpful. London book shop address you gave is the closest I could get and will be readily checked. BaRhi Meherbani |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed, the reality always exists between the extremes. Unfortunately both our society and the western society are on the extremes. You are saying right about the Punjabi culture but you seem a little pessimist for it whereas for the west you are optimist. In fact all the fingers of a hand are not equal and everywhere you find the different philosophies leading towards the exploitation. Over here in west, after industrial revolution, to increase the work force in the factories, women were exploited in the name of independence. Except the social welfare states, pregnancy or other illness is nothing for the company. You have to work and thats it, otherwise no one will pay your bills. Last census of 2000 shows in USA, the number of unmarried couples is increased by 70%. Most of the kids having single parents are emotionally disabled. Every culture has its base in its own values and traditions. This is not a process of few months or years. So it is the best way that we promote our own values in this new and challenging scenario. |
| Name: | Bawa - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | bnanno@altavista.com |
| Location: | Leioa, SPAIN |
| Comments: | Dear Hassan Shah, Welcome to Shiv Kumar Batalvi's poetry, better late than never. He was a truly great poet as I understand: people who are able to extend a language to previously unimaginable limits. I had the good fortune as a child to hear of many first-hand anecdotes of Shiv; those are memories to treasure. One fact that is perhaps not very known is that he was a great reciter/singer of his own poetry: "bahut ucha sur lake gaunde si" But many people sing him in deeper tones, and it is equally effective. Anyway, about the books you asked for in Shamukhi, the Lahore Book shop(Lahore Printing Press) in Ludhiana is a very good source of Punjabi books (I have some poetry in both scripts, similar to Star Publishers in Delhi who publish poetry in Urdu with Hindi transliteration side by side). Of course you need a contact in the place and a lot of patience to dig them out! (My sister went for several copies of Gurdial Singh's Persa, and the person pretended he had never heard of him...eventually, seeing that she wouldn't go away, he managed to dig out 5 copies). In London there used to be a good store in Covent Garden called Books from India; they had a fairly extensive catalogue. For the present, I find Indian Internet Book sides very limited, if anyone knows of any good sites, please let me know. Lastly, deepest condolences for all those who have had such a tragic time recently, regards, bawa |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Dr. Zaki, your this NOHA is also excellent. Ms. Zahra Jee, Khalil Jibran is also my favourite. I will send those books to my brother in Saudia which you recommended in your last e. Now come to the question which you raise in your last but one e that why do we have so much melancholy and sadness associated with women in Punjabi poetry? Zahra, it is very unfortunate matter in our society that here women cannot decide about their destiny. She is badly and of course unjustly supressed. Our feudal set up does not allow he to be independent like in the West. She is not allowed to protest against such supression. And if any Heer, Sohni, Sassi or Sahiba protests and revolt against this wrongfully structured set up then many Qaidos, Mullahs, and KhaiReys come a head to nib the bud. You know this thing very well that when a girl is born here then it is not the happy moment for the family ( particular the family of the lower class). Though in upper class the freedom of women is very limited but her condition is better than lower class. Heer was from upper class. Sassi too whereas Sohni was daughter of Kammi (potter). So these women decided to take their destiny in their hands and then the powerful forces as usual supressed them. Here our Sufi poets stand by their sides. Our Sufis favour their such revolt against establishment. Mullah is the mouth peice of establishment so he stands along with the supressor. One can try to understand the diffences between Sufi and MUllah this way. Then Ms. Zahra, daughter is like a guest in her parents'house. When she becomes young then she is pushed out from the house and that is the second time for her after the birth. She is always prepared for the next house or the next life. It is very tragic situation but it exists here. In our villages grandmothers also sing such songs like " kheyD lay ni kuRye, nach lay ni kuRye, khedna hasna reh jaoo ga, ik boojaR jeha jat aoo ga tey a ke lay jaoo ga. And then that very moment comes and u see that again our all the songs (geet) (at the time of marriage ceremony) are very sad in the house (paike) of the bride. Mussarat Nazir sang beautiful songs in Punjabi. As "saDa chiRyaaN da chanba, or GuDyaaN patole chchaD ke babel toN door challi... so this is the most horrible and painful moment for the father when her daughter is handed over to other. So she ( poor bride) almost becomes living deadbody ( Zinda laash). She is also told that now your Majazee Khuda is your husband so you should not come back and if you come then 'teri laash ee away". She is not given any choice. Here again there is a great tragedy that she has to suffer a lot. This is our society which is quite different then the West. Western women get rid of this suffering because of philosophical and industrial revolution. We are still waiting it. So she is helpless and dependent. She is bound to respect and obey orders of her father, elders or even younger brother, then her husband and even all the male members of both the family. She cannot protest. Tribal and religeous set up force her to live with in the control of male dominated society. SO it is made compulsory for her to do what her husband says, here Hinduism, Islam and all other religion are giving unanimous decision. Man's superiority is determined by men. I would love to hear from other APNA friends to talk on this issue and Ms. Zahra jee you can further put some questions so that this discussion could become very fruitful. Best wishes. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 26, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Saeed Farani: I would appreciate if it's a pertinent response that anything else. On another note, I want to recommend another excellent poet, in fact, one of my favorites: Gibran. His book, "The Prophet" has beautiful thoughts on all aspects of our life. One is on Death as a topic; and Children as another topic. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5484/Gibran.htm Please check those out. Take Care. |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 26, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | Dear Farani! Here is another "Noha" which I wrote on the untimely death of brother (He was immidiately older to me and were very close to each other). The irony of 'pardes' is that your mind does not accept the reality of death easily. Primarily, one is not physical present at the burial ceremony. Secondly, when one has not been in face-to-face interaction with someone for a longer period that psychological state of mind tends to exist and take time to wither away. But during that period one feels the glipses (Jhole) of your deceased 'loved-one' here and there. May be that happens due to the on-going tussle between conscious and sub-conscious. It may provide a good background to comprehend the central idea in this 'Noha'. (Rammah Ji,
please set it) . NOHA Akhh jhupkan taiN khore kinne roop saroop wataveeN Chaar chofere teriaaN yadaaN da chanan teri lo. Ja taqdere bheRie saade vasde baagh ujaaRe Akh jhupkan taeeN khore kinne.... |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 26, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Ms. Zahra, You asked very interesting question as "Explain something to me. I have never been able to understand this myth. Why do we have so much melancholy and sadness associated with women in Punjabi Poetry." First of all tell me that you want its answer in short or detailed. Meanwhile, I am composing answer in my mind. Best wishes |
| Name: | Zahra - December 25, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Javed Zaki: Your creativity was quite commendable. I guess probably because it was stated with a lot of compassion and brought out the feelings of deep down inside.
Thanks |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 25, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Dr. Zaki Jee, I read your "VichhaRe Sajjan Da Noha." It is full of pain. It is the song of koonj wichchaR gai daroN tey labhdi sajnaN nooN. You chose beautiful words which dipict truthful picture of heart. Eys Nohe nooN paRh key atthroo chcham chcham wassan lag paidey naiN. Eh asl wich akhkhaaN (eyes) naheeN roNdyan, eh taaN dilree aleel (soul is paining wali gal) pai roNdi tey kurlaaNdi ey. RooH (soul) nooN wekhna hove taaN sache atthrooaN wich wekh sakdey o. Jehray jee tur jandey naiN oh kad wapas murday naiN. Mian Mohammad Bakhkhash kehnde naiN, "KuriaN (girls or departed souls) fer naN peyke (body) muryaaN, sohryaaN (angels of death) jad chchik kharyaaN. Tey JogyaaN wala geet taaN tuhanoo chete hosi: Mitti na pharol jogia, naheeN labhna laal gawacha. Mitti is the dheri or grave of that heavenly body. When Panchchee UD jaway taaN pinjra reh janda ey khali. And Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan truly sung that geet "es ton DahDa dard na koi, kisey da yar naa wichchrey. Nusrat himself has gone to the land of eternity. Beh beh gyiaaN majlasaaN, tey beh beh gai divaan Tilo (small bird) puchda thikreye (small peices broken pots) kidhar geya jahan. Salaam to all. |
| Name: | Dr. Javed Zaki - December 24, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed Farani! I want to share one of 'Geet' with you which I wrote to my mother, when two of my elder brothers died in Pakistan with a lapse of 6-7 months. I could not visit my family for a whole year due to my chronic kidney problem. You can hear mine and your 'Hook'in this geet.
(Rammah Ji, if you can set it properly please do it
VichhaRe Sajjan Da Noha Soach de pinchhi de pankhhaaN te geet hijr de likhhne. Unt udeekan waali sik nooN rung birhooN de dasne Te athroo chhum chhum vasne
(I have made a beautiful tune for this 'geet'. When I recited it to my MaaN she became very restless. I stopped singing and never sung it ever before her. |
| Name: | Prem Singh Kahlon - December 24, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pkahlon@tnstate.edu |
| Comments: | Dear Safir Ji, I have sent some e-mails to Zahra Bhain by clicking on her address on APNA web site and the address does appear on the address box correctly. It appears that she does not get the mail. Am I doing something wrong or her screening system remove the mail? Should I type the address instead of clicking from the web page? Thanks for your response.With regards, Prem Singh |
| Name: | Safir Rammah - December 24, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, Va USA |
| Comments: | Zaki Ji! I don't have a copy of Baba Nanak's Kalam in Shahmukhi that we recently published from Lahore. Apparently there is more demand then the copies we can get from Pakistan which can't be mailed in bulk due to the size and weight of the book. As I understand, a few copies that we have received so far were pre-ordered by other folks and have been mailed to them. Manzur may have a copy or two, so you may need to check with him. Zahra Ji! I have added a few simple html commands on the 'Post Your Comments' page for the Disussion Forum. Let me know if you need any more formating commands. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 24, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Safir Rammah: Please do us all a favor. Please post a few instructions on how to create a new line and bold the stuff etc. I do not think that I am doing it right. Probably, you end up fixing that. I have forgotten all the html commands. Thanks in advance. I was about to wish all the readers a very happy holidays and was in alamae' tazabzab and then thought why not. All the more reason, this should be the time to focus your energies on the happenings in 2001. Each of us will have our own list. There are ups and downs as well. But something that keeps us going is our faith; belief in our own strengths as well as the strength of the one above us. So, the happy holidays time would be spent in doing a lot of homework for our own selves. Saeed Farani: Indeed: ~Dardae Dil Kae Wastae Paidaa Keeya Insaan Ko Warnaa Taa'At Kae Leeyae Kuch Kum Na Thae Kurr'o'Bayaan. Still, there is a stage that you need to take this out of the hands of fellow human beings and then contemplate on it on your own. The self-awareness and contemplation inculcates strength. This is not with ups and downs in life only. This route has to be taken with everything in one's life. Best Wishes and Allah Baili! |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 24, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | Rammah Ji! I sent you an email a couple of days ago about sending me Kalam of Baba Guru Nanak in Shahmukhi. Please respond. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 24, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | My dear APNA friends, Many thanks for kind words selections of sympathetic poems by Ms Zahra and Safir Rammah Jee at this time of grief and sorrow. I will copy and print your comments and send them to my brother Dr. Shafiq and his wife. They are feeling better. Many many thanks again. I am proud of all such great friends who think so nicely about others. That is actually our great mystic (in fact humanistic) heritage. I appreciate from the depth of my heart.Best wishes. Soon I will be back. Meanwhile I wrote two letters. One to BBC asking why not they are including Punjabi in the list of their dozens of world languages (43 languages). Other letter I wrote to Managing Director of PTV, MR. Baig, about the allocation of more time to Pakistani languages on PTV as much is given in our friendly neighbour China. In China 6 to 8 hours are given to its even small minorities' languages whereas we have here only 30 to 50 minutes a day programs to our Pakistani languages. BBC responded hopelessly and Mr. Baig did not have time to answer. Any how you can also write to various international broadcasting agencies that if they can broadcast even a language whose speakers are less then 50% of Punjabi language then why not in Punjabi they broadcast whoses speakers are 120 millions? |
| Name: | Safir Rammah - December 23, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, Va USA |
| Comments: | Well, since we are on this topic, let me quote Aubade by Philip Larkin, a British poet (1922-1985). His British origin explains the last line of the poem. After reading the beautiful poem quoted by Zahra, I thought some reality check may be in order. A bit long, but worth reading: I work all day, and get half-drunk at night. The mind blanks at the glare. Not in remorse This is a special way of being afraid And so it stays just on the edge of vision, Slowly light strengthens, and the room takes shape. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 22, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Saeed Farani: I am reminded of the following verses. They are simply poignant and beautiful. A. L. Barbauld "Life! I know not what thou art" LIFE! I know not what thou art, But know that thou and I must part; And when, or how, or where we met I own to me's a secret yet. Life! we've been long together, Through pleasant and through cloudy weather; 'Tis hard to part when friends are dear Perhaps 'twill cost a sigh, a tear; Then steal away, give little warning, Choose thine own time; Say not Good-nightbut in some brighter clime Bid me Good-morning. I was reminded of the above verses as my mother introduced me to them at a very young age. This is her subject(poetry/prose) so I for sure have a lot of affinity towards it. But in general, it's like "hastee upnee habab kee see hae, yeh numaish sarab kee see hae." I like the flow here. But I feel there is a lack of depth. That's something one can only feel and sense in one's native language. Indeed, expression has its own way. We all have been talking about the importance of Punjabi and all the nuances associated with it. This is where it makes the difference. In the matters of depth, neither English nor Urdu[Arabic to me is only for religious purposes. Persian is very flowery and sabaq amoz and thought provoking language.]can address some points. Or probably, they do address, it's just that they do not impact you where you need to be impacted. Or they don't penetrate deep enough to make you feel the pain and joy words can cause in the moments of ups and downs. Beauty is one thing. Flowery is another thing. Depth stands out. But I guess they are all very relative concepts. I may consider X deep, but someone else may find Y deeper than X. I am not fluent in Punjabi. I never was. But most of my elders spoke Punjabi and shared their wisdom. So, I have listened to the thoughts from the wise ones in a very beautiful manner. It also depends who is the speaker. How eloquent, sensitive, deep, natural, poignant and above all articulate the person is. Now, a question can be raised that how can you expect an ethnicity that heavily relies on agriculture and vivacity to look into the above points in expressing themselves; when they take pride in their straightforwardness and simplicity and sincerity? How can you expect that simplicity be replaced by sophistication and polishness? Well, times have changed. Times should change. Mindsets should change. Mindsets should evolve and progress. If few decades back, a farmer/landlord had women in his farms/lands working side by side with men, today the same women should be side by side in education in other fields. They don't have to stay in those farms/lands. That's not equality on any basis. That does not represent anything. It's a very backward thought. I keep on hearing that Oh, Punjabis are not culturally so stuck up when it comes to their women. The ordinary man would have his family women in agriculture working side by side with him. This is what I used to watch on TV Plays in my childhood. Now, sitting so far away, I do not want to watch the same themes and the same mindset. That saddens me a great deal. Our plays(I have stopped watching them now)portray the pop culture to depict how well they have adopted the concepts of western music and culture; but they have not looked into the real matter. This is something that makes me turn away from my own culture(Eastern Mindset]. That's where I feel I have learnt a lot in the West -- application of my thoughts, ideas, faith, values, lessons learnt, lessons that needed to be learnt and etc. We have lost the spirit a great deal that stressed upon the value of hardwork in academia and applying that in real world and continuing to grow mentally in our lives. I guess I was brought up as a highly motivated and ambitious child and that was inculcated in me by my mother, who is in academia herself. When I see that spirit missing and find yougsters of my age taking life for a ride -- that saddens me a great deal. No matter how much we as a community take pride in our heritage and land, unfortunately we have to open our eyes and see what a mess we have in Pakistan. It's mere exploitation. I am an optimist and believe in optimism as it's in my blood; and I did read Iqbal with great love and respect ["Aaj Bhee Ho Jo Ibrahim Kaa Eemaan Paidaa....]and now differ with him on certain concepts that were well put in those times but cannot be applied now; but it's the race or the ethnic identity that has to evolve. I am reminded of many childhood days, traveling between Gujranwala City and Lahore. My paternal ancestors are buried in the outskirts of G.C off of main grand trunk road. And early in the morning when we would travel between the two cities, I remembered seeing the long line of women in a qafila kind of mode, carrying big vessels on their heads and just walking to their work destinations. I also remember the greenary on our lands in Rahwali. I have yet to see such greenary; and such hardworking and loving and caring people. In fact, I still remember being surprised to see the fasl on full bloom. Why I am writing all this? I guess after a long day of travel and work, last night as I watched msnbc and cnn with the sickening scenarios of NWFP and some areas of Baluchistan. I felt miserable. Where the hell is Pakistan heading towards? I am used to seeing greenary, life, vivacity, abundance, faith, mercy, compassion, love and prosperity -- the scenes of heroine addicts(NWFP), hasheesh, extremism, roads filled with men with different features and color complexion in different kinds of pagrees made me abhor those faces. This is disgusting! Then the other provinces cry and moan that Punjab never helped them out or helps them out. I am unable to understand that these grownup men with so much tribal honor and power have no sense to improve their condition. All this male pride thing should be shot dead if Pakistan has to go anywhere. And I mean shot dead, buried and crushed for all times to come. All these pashtoons should be taken to schools where they teach them humanity and civility which they lack like hell. I would never like to travel to those areas depsite the fact that they are in Pakistan. It saddens me and depresses me a great deal. Have we stopped thinking on the direction we are heading towards? Or it never mattered? As it wasn't part of the culture? Have a very nice long weekend to all who are taking some time off like me :) I just wanted to jot down a few thoughts that came to my mind and will keep on coming and creating havoc :)! |
| Name: | Sameer - December 22, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@tahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed: I deeply regret the untimely loss of your loved ones in tragic circumstances. Please accept my condolences. We all wonder the helplessness when tragedy hits each and every one of us, again and again until we can no longer regret at our own kicking the bucket. Unfortunately this is the way it is with nature. It has no mercy, no kindness, just principles and laws that govern it. Just as we are nothing for the earth and earth is nothing for our galaxy which is nothing compared to the universe. In the end, there is actually nothing. Whatever we do, talk, write is for the love of family, friends, ideas and iphilosophy. That is all there is but it is also a cause of sorrow and pain as you recently felt. in fact, life is dukha because we just can not detach ourselves from our loved ones -at least. Alternate is to remain attached even in adverse circumstances. In my personal case, I am madly attached or in love with my elders and forefather who have depated this world longtime ago. To keep the memory alive is one best way to ease the pain of losing loved ones. There you have it in my humble opinion. Two best ways and no middle ground; either accepting what Buddha said so beautifully about total detachment or never detach, no matter what, be arrogantly attached to the memory of loved ones almost as if they could never leave until you yourself leave but remain alive for the rest of loved ones. My self coming from very anti-mazar wahabi background, there is nothing peaceful to visit my loved ones whenever I visit Pakistan. Going to graveyard is the first act for me in Islamabad as well as the last one before boarding for US. I sincerely hope to see you creating your own myth, any which way you believe, if it eases the pain you have been through because none of us can change the irreversibility of the reality in this case, though each one of us wish we can. May your grief lessens with time -for the sake of yourself, your parents, your brother, your sister-in-law and her family. Regards, Sameer |
| Name: | Hassan Shah - December 21, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hassan.shah@wanadoo.be |
| My URL: | |
| Location: | Brussels, Belgium |
| Comments: | salam to everyone, I discovered APNA site just few days ago and,believe me, since then I have spent a lot of time checking its numerous items. As luck would have it, its through this site that I had my first encounter with Shiv Kumar Batalvi's poetry. I am amazed how I could have remained ignorant of this great punjabi poet till now. Not a connoiseur of Punjabi litrature, yet I am a big fan of Saif-Ul-Malook,as the writer of this classical punjabi master piece is buried just few kilometers away from my birth place. I am really impressed by Shiv Batalvi's style and language and would like to learn more about him and his work. I wonder if its possible to find his "Diwan" or "Kulliat" in urdu transcript as i'm not familiar with Gormukhi! Any help will be highly appreciated. Rab Rakha |
| Name: | Hassan Shah - December 21, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hassan.shah@wanadoo.be |
| My URL: | |
| Location: | Brussels, Belgium |
| Comments: | salam to everyone, I discovered APNA site just few days ago and,believe me, since then I have spent a lot of time checking its numerous items. As luck would have it, its through this site that I had my first encounter with Shiv Kumar Batalvi's poetry. I am amazed how I could have remained ignorant of this great punjabi poet till now. Not a connoiseur of Punjabi litrature, yet I am a big fan of Saif-Ul-Malook,as the writer of this classical punjabi master piece is buried just few kilometers away from my birth place. I am really impressed by Shiv Batalvi's style and language and would like to learn more about him and his work. I wonder if its possible to find his "Diwan" or "Kulliat" in urdu transcript as i'm not familiar with Gormukhi! Any help will be highly appreciated. Rab Rakha |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 20, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | Dear Farani! Please accept my sincere condolenece. May God bless you and your family with peace of mind and soul. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 20, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Saeed Farani: Inna Lillahae' Wa Inna Ilaihae Rajioon. May God grant the souls peace(Amen). It's very sad. And must be killing for the parents. Please accept my heartiest condolences. Best Regards. |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 20, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | That is a very sad news...losing 2 young kids in one fateful day..my heart goes out for you and all of your family. May Waheguru give you guys the courage and strength to cope with this tragedy. Talk to you on e-mail. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 20, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, VA USA |
| Comments: | My Dear Saeed; May Allah give you all peace and courage on this horrible incident. It is really a tragedy and one can understand the intensity of grieve and sorrow you have. Especially, we are praying for your Bhabi and parents. Regards. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 20, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Kahlon Jee and Zahra Jee, Thanks for your kind words. Actually I did'nt want to bring out this "dil wala dukhtRa" to all of you because it is very natural as Baba Nanak Jee said, "MaiN jata dukh mujh kooN, dukh subhaee jag, Uchche chaR kay vekhya, har ghar eho ee agg." As Ms. Zahra mentioned a few sad news from her friends in her e. Let me take your few minutes regarding tragedy with my family. My younger brother Raja Shafiq was a doctor in the Institute of Cordialogy, Lahore. He got a job from the Ministry of Health of Saudi Arabia. So he went there with his family on 10th November, 2001. He was travelling with his wife and two kids to join his very first day duty near Al-Qaseem. It was single road and they were going in the hospital van. In the way they had an accident on 19th November. His two kids were caught by the angel of death. The son was five years old and daughter was three years old. Both the kids died at the spot and my brother and sister-in-law got severe injuries. My brother was put in an intesive care for five days. For us it was all very miserable situation that they were there and we were here. First time, I felt badly about this butchery (division) of humanity in various geographic territories that you need visa to travel even to see your killed ones. Such helpless and gloomy situation we had many days. My brother requested to the governer of AL-Qaseem to let our parents go there for moral support but for them it was just "Khalas, Khalas" (Finished so finished). Finally, I got arrangements from Islamabad through our Foreign Ministry. It took many days and I have to do very hard efforts. Last Wednesday, my parents and the mother-in-law of my brother went there finally and funeral of the kids was performed on Friday after Juma Prayer. Kids were very much attached with my parents. So it is much more great shocking time for them. As in French it is said, "C'est la vie." God/Allah/Bhagwan has given very little in the hands of this tiny creature (humanbeings) whereas much choices and decisions He has with himself. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 20, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Sir Kahlon: I am indeed very sorry to learn about any sad news regarding Dear Saeed Farani's brother. Also, I never got any email from you. I hope you and the other gentleman who was trying to send me an email with a genuine query that I probably misunderstood, were doing so on the right email address. If not then please update your address book and follow my email address provided Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com. I hate to say that but please if it is a very sad and depressing news then do not add to my already existing list. A day before Eid, my very close friend sent a brief note on the passing of her father in Pakistan while she was in the US. Her father was buried before she could even be there. Another very dear and childhood friend in another part of the world(NZ) had some severe health issues out of a blue. My dearest and darling Taya Jaan slipped and broke his hip bone and went through a surgery. I got all these three news within 48 hours on Eid Day and a day prior to Eid. Being a hyper-sensitive person, with a very little heart, I could not believe the list of stories I was hearing. In fact, I started making sure that all my dear and darling loved ones were on my mailing list and phone list. I have a very big family mashallah -- 42 real aunt and uncles, 50 plus first cousins and then their second and third generations. I guess I was trying to say that I am overwhelmed with the "Honi" and "Unhoni." This is something I have a very hard time coping with -- understanding the cycle of life. On one end, we live and breathe and eat and drink and lead our lives; whereas, on the other end, the same life goes away with each passing day. Still we move on and on. I was really sad for my friend as she could not make it to bid farewell to her late father. She just had her baby recently. And this is so damn ironic. I do not like this kind of nature's ironic way of adding and subtracting life. I guess I do not understand the underlying principle. I never understood that in all my "enlightened" years. Probably, I never will. |
| Name: | bawa - December 19, 2001 |
| E-mail: | bnanno@altavista.com |
| Location: | Leioa, Spain |
| Comments: | Dear Sameer, Couldn't agree with you more about a) respecting the language, and b) language not belonging to any one in particular. What I was trying to say is that I wonder if there is some way in which one might encourage Panjabis to teach their language to their children, that it does no harm to be bi/trilingual, and is actually beneficial. Also, to keep a language alive, the production part is important, although comprehension is a big step and better than nothing. Living in Europe, where learning your language/culture is a matter of great pride, while actively learning others, one is sometimes envious of the something similar for Panjabi. The range of policies and activities especially for children at all levels (private/public) to actively Widen their language could be copied by Panjabis on both sides of the border and around the world. By the way, someone mentioned Panjabi dialects earlier; has anyone read Gurdial Singh's novels, especially Persa (the National Award winner): some of the language was an eye-opener and a real pleasure, do read it if you get the chance. |
| Name: | Prem Singh Kahlon - December 19, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pkahlon@tnstate.edu |
| Comments: | Dear Zahra, it appears that you didnot get my letter to you regarding mere Piare Veer Saeed Farani and the tragic accident that his younger brother was involved in. Even though my name is not Badshah, Wazir etc. I can type only slowly so today I want to discuss something else. Piare Veer Sameer Ji, you may remember me when I try to find your place of birth in Faisalabad. Any way,I want to talk about Maharaja Ranjit Singh and use of Farsi as court language. I would have liked the promotion of Punjabi because most of my friends call me Punjabi fanatic. Who thinks that Sanskrit was derived from Punjabi( Prakrit;ancient Punjabi) than the otherway around.Meaning of these names may also suggest that. But this is just the opinion. Now my main point: Consider the history of Punjab before and after The Maharah with respect to Muslim/HIndu/Sikh relationship.Never the relationships were so close before and after the Lahor Dar bar. So his contribution probably was more needed to make the communitees proud of their land and culture. Language could have come later but that was not to be..My opinion was reinfoced after reading a recent book(The Maharajah's Box BY CHristy Campbell-Harper Collins 2000).This book has reproductions of the original correspondence from the English Resident at Lohore to East India Company and the Crown) so is not based on opinions.From my reading I could not find a single name of a traitor that was a Muslim name( all were Hindu/Sikh names).The Punjabis were united during his times and that I think was due his foresightedness. I have lot to say about that but cannot type fast enough to give you all I need to say.Let me convey one more thing; one of my friend goes to Pakistan to celebrate Guru Nanak's B'day.Last year during that visit he went to NWFP(his birh place) and during conversations my friend mentioned the name Ranjit Singh and he was interupted and was told not to say Ranjit Singh,call him The Maharaja.If we consider the priorities of the times even people like me will say uniting the people should have been and was the top priority.By the way I got this figure from The encyclopedia that 65% of Pakistani population identify themselves as Punjabis(Even though they don't like to speak in public0 while that is not true for EAST pUNJAB. WE SHOULD be less concerned about the script and more concerned about the language and the culture and in my humble opinion we will have greater success to start with. Sameer Ji I enjoy your efforts along with others on this site. With Regards, Prem Singh |
| Name: | Sameer - December 19, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed Farani and Bawa: I think the first step even before learning a language is learning to respect it. Personally I would prefer a person who is unable to speak perfect Punjabi but respects it as equally valid language of 130-150 million people. On the other end of the spectrum are those who are able to communicate in Punjabi without any problem and do so but consider it unsophisticated or inferior to Urdu or Hindi for nationalistic or religious reasons. No language is property of any religion and neither religions should filter some languages out. Arabic was spoken before and after Mohammad by Arabs and Christian Arabs speak it happily. Same should be true of Punjabi language. It existed before Sikh religion and therefore no reason at all for associating this language with Sikhs only. The problem for Muslims is that historically no ruler of Punjab during Islamic empires period could speak or cared about learning Punjabi. All the official work was done in Persian. Moreover, allmost all governors and subedars of Punjab were either Turkic or Afghan during this period. The Punjabi was reduced to a mean of communication verbally at the lower end of masses. The official language remained Persian even during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule. He could be easily forgiven for that because his rule lasted for a short period of around 30 years consumed mostly by empire building - not enough time to set in place a whole new paradigm of official business. But Pakistan has become a majority Punjabi speaking country since the cesession of eastern wing in 1971. There must have been some hopeful signs for a change in linguistic culture of Pakistan. Unfortunately Punjabis themselves preferred to stay away from promotion of their mother tongue percieving it to be parochial and allegedly detrimental to nation state. It actually worked against the nation state anyway because of the notion of fragility that can not stand even the language of majority of its population. Moreover, in a democratic world, it sounded undemocratic or overtly condescending for a majority to let go of their language without any complains from any minority segment of the society.........That is why I am suggesting respecting Punjabi as a first step. One can never learn or promote anything with a passion without respect. Respect is also a neutralizer for disdainful attitude of many Punjabis and non-Punjabis towards this beautiful language of their forefathers....I just can not imagine may great grandparents or grandparents sitting in a Punjabi village, smoking hukka and speaking highly Persianized Urdu talking about watering their fields of wheat crop. Only way I can pay respect through memory of my forefathers is through recreating such imaginary situation in my mind in Punjabi language. Therefore, Punjabi for Punjabis is not just for current or future; it is also for the sake of past and forefathers. We would not be here in this world without them....Regards, |
| Name: | Zahra - December 18, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed Farani: In a way, I agree that this is a sad time of the year, specilly since 09/11/2001. I have been hearing about so many lives, that were lost, since then, that one ends up taking a different perspective at life, in general. I guess that will be the forthcoming year's resolution for me. But I must share a little incident that I came across just a week ago. I am working two blocks away from WTC and pass by the rubble every day. Last week was quite gloomy due to the weather. I was in the elevator rushing to work. In the elevator, there was another fellow as well. And he started a casual conversation. The whole gist of that conversation was being thankful to God. I was running in the morning to be at a meeting so I was a little edgy on the slow speed of the elevator. Somehow, running into that calm and very composed person with a very different perspective, was a wake up call. It was gloomy and a very rainy day. This person very calmly said, "Well, great! We have a variety. Rain and Shine. Last week, it was sunny. This week it is rainy." In other words, whatever was on my face as well as in my heart, in terms of "complaining mode -- elevator was slow; day was rainy; floors were slippery; shoulder bags were heavy; walk in the rain was quite cumbersome..." I could not believe it, the way he started addressing all those matters on his own as if he was talking to himself, but was giving me answers to the stuff that I was feeling and had on my mind. Kind of telepathy. But his points made me see things differently. In fact, by the time I got out of the elevator I had a silly smile on my face -- kind of why was I going though that internal whining :) So, in short, it's always very nice to hear a different perspective from someone. My intent was to give you a different perspective. I can write a thesis on gloom and pessimism and how they should be handled from religious perspective, but culturaly how they need to be addressed, should be your forte; and I would leave that to you :) Nowadays, at work few of my well-educated(know about islam, pakistan and our belt) american colleagues have been bringing up excellent perspectives on separating the affairs of state from religion(politics)and then inquiring about the cultural vs religious practices in our part of the world. I need to jot down a few clarifications from my previous post as that can be misconstrued if not clarified. Knowing Dulla Bhatti, who is assigned to perform the religious task of, getting ambiguities clarified...I'd rather do that before I am asked :)later, regards! |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 18, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Ms. Zahra Jee, Jal waaNg kabaabaaN tey lazzaT dey horaaN. Apny zindgi taaN mar kay ee relax hosi. Sadi na koi eed ey tey na ee shab-e-raat, niri (only) hanery raat, niri (keval) kali raat. |
| Name: | bawa - December 18, 2001 |
| E-mail: | bnanno@altavista.com |
| Location: | Leioa, Bizkaia Spain |
| Comments: | Hello everyone, Just to say I have just discovered this forum and am glad to see there are other people who share my concerns about the wasting away of Punjabi language. One of the things that I find most distressing is parents neglecting to teach punjabi to their children. This I have found both in Punjab, and India and also abroad. For some reason people think it is sophisticated that their children are unable to speak Punjabi (only Hindi, English in India) and English outside. They seem to think its enough if they have a superficial understanding. This is not limited to any religion, although maybe Sikhs in Punjab ensure Punjabi is spoken in the home more, but then a lot of Sikhs in Delhi have only Hindi speaking children. As for children living abroad, they are going to learn English anyway, and bilinguism with Any language is known to increase children's learning capacity for other things anyway. So why the apathy? Please comment. On a different front, someone asked about the origins of Punjabi. I can only recommend books, a good introduction for the lay person is "A History of Punjabi Literature" (S. S. Sekhon & K.S.Duggal) published by the Sahitya Academy (it is published in English), then Panjabi University has several publications including a monumental academic work "Panjabi Bhasha da Sarot de Bantar" (524 pages) by Prem Parkash thing, the first part of treatise on the language, tracing its history, origin and evolution. He was working on the second part describing the language itself, but do not know if it is published yet. If there is interest I will try to put some parts on the internet. Lastly, apologies if I have been repeating what has already been said as I am new to this page. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 16, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed Farani: Happy Eid to you and your family. Please relax today :) Regards |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 16, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Attention: Bhai Prem Singh Jee, Raman Jee, Sameer Veer Jee, Zahra Bhain Jee, Dulla Bhatti & Mahmood Fahim Jee, I have gone through your comments Punjabi and Religion affairs. It is really a very important field which needs a lot of work to be done. It is very serious matter in Pakistan Punjab as Mahmood Faheem rightly said that Sindhies, Balochs and even Pashtoon muslims are culturally matured and why not Punjabi Muslims? You raised an interesting point about Sikhs being called Punjabi whereas Punjabi Muslims and Hindus not being labelled as Punjabis, in general. Most of the interactors being well informed do not need for me or any other person to repeat the events of British imposing Urdu over Punjab, partition related matters and people of haryana and HP opting for Hindi as their language. Although these are the facts but they are history. If we do not overcome and learn from history, we are bound to repeat the "mistakes" that will keep dividing Punjabis even in diaspora..........How many organizations of Pakistani Punjabis or Hindu Punjabis are there in USA? Not many when compared to Sikh Punjabis organizations. It is a matter of preference of identity as well. Most Muslim Punjabis would identify themselves as Muslims, Pakistani and then Punjabi, most Hindu Punjabis would identify themselves as Indian, Hindu and then Punjabi whereas most sikhs (though not hesitating to consider themselves Indian) identify with Punjab almost as strongly as being Indian. The proof is always in the pudding! Sikhs have served Punjabi culture much more than other two groups, be it music, books, weeklies, dailies or just literature. Pakistani Punjabis knowledge of literature generally does not go beyond Heer Ranjha and that part of Sufi poetry which is sung by singers. similarly what did Hindu Punjabis, dominating the Bollywood do for Punjab or Punjabi language, except for Raj Babbar? Knowing too well that pride in Punjabi has no bearing on being Indian or Pakistani or being Hindu or Muslim, yet both of these group shy away to avoid the imaginary label of being parochial. Thus a strong identification of Sikhs with Punjab is no myth. In response to Raman's comments Mr. Sameer rightly said that in Pakistan most Muslim Punjabis would identify themselves as Muslims, Pakistani and then Punjabi. The common excuse by many Punjabi intelligensia is that Punajbi is not well developed compared to other means of communication. How can a language develop if it has no backers? This is the biggest tragedy of Punjabi that Muslim Punjabies are not backing it instead they are backing Urdu. Why they are doing so because millions of teachers, molvies and all the media (print and electronic) are preaching Urdu as the only national language of Pakistan and for Punjabies it is more national language in the perspective of 1947 butcherings. I wish to write more but the cafe owner is in hurry. all the best wishes till next. yours saeed |
| Name: | Shahzad Khan Raja - December 16, 2001 |
| E-mail: | shahzadraja@orange.net |
| Location: | Leicester, UK |
| Comments: | Any interested in the Poetry of Baba Bhulle Shah of Kasur, if so please ger in touch to exchange information and poetry. My contact details are available on the ApnaOrg Member list. S.K Raja |
| Name: | Manwarjit Singh - December 16, 2001 |
| E-mail: | manwar_jit@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://manwarjit.tripod.com |
| Location: | New Delhi, New Delhi India |
| Comments: | Dear Friends, I would like to have your opinion on my new website on Punjabi peotry in Gurmukhi. Please Let me know what you think about this site. http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/manwarjit/ or http://punjabi-poetry.cjb.net/ Thanks Manwarjit. |
| Name: | Abdul Sami Bhatti - December 15, 2001 |
| E-mail: | youngpakistan@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/youngpakistan |
| Location: | Islamabad, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | I would like to wish all at the APNA Discussion Forum a very Happy Eid-ul-Fitr Mubarik. Please don't forget to wish your muslim friends during this Eve inspite of Language, Regligious or Ethinic Bariers...it brings all of us closer. Allah hafiz Abdul Sami Bhatti |
| Name: | Abbas Syed Hasnain - December 15, 2001 |
| E-mail: | geminisher82@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | There are many traditional instruments available at a store from Los Angeles. www.bangadrum.com |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 15, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Zahra: I was playing with your guys about my weight comments earlier. I am fine. Working out a little 3/4 days a week and keeping myself away from coke/pepsi is more than enough for the time being. Thanks for the advice although I feel it is too much obsession to keep ones dietry data on a web site on a daily basis:-). I think today is Eid in many parts of the world already..so no arguments today:-)....everyone have a safe and mubarak Eid. Enjoy the day!! |
| Name: | Zahra - December 15, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Hazrat Dulla Bhatti: Firstly, I am hoping that you took my earlier suggestion seriously and consulted the invaluable websites and resources that I had suggested. Secondly, I think you forgot to read carefully what I wrote. I wrote: what I saw and experienced. Most of the women I have come across from India got married before they were sent for higher studies. In fact, the way women get married there, is pathetic. Even I have heard Indian Women commenting on that themselves. Interestingly, most of the successful Indian Women Professionals that I have come across, are divorcees. Amongst Pakistanis, trends are changing for the better. Majority of my school mates, college mates as well as university mates are working women aside from their other obligations. The Indian ladies I came across in School in my early 20s, were quite disappointing and I had nothing in common with them. I do not need to repeat that. Do not become so touchy on my specifying Indian Ladies. I brought up the example to tell you that even two Sikh Women brought up differently, in different parts of the world, can have very different views and mentality. Similarly, Muslims can falll into the same thing. Hindus can be the same way. One of my real good Indian friend [thorough bred Punjabi]is a real gem of a person. And I have openly told him that his wife is real lucky to have a hubby like him. I have yet to say that to any Muslim Acquaintance or Friend of mine. Not that there are not good people around or there is a dearth; it's just the obvious that is very obvious. "But you are right on the point that one needs more than a common religion or culture to click and be true friends...it is better if you have that in common but not enough." I would say that "Once Bitten Twice Shy." :) Just Kidding. One of my palestinian residents in dorms was a good looking machoist. He would openly behave in such way that my blood pressure would rise. I was in the habit of implementing Newton's 3rd law of motion very religiously. This chap, an extremely nice looking and with excellent arabic would also do the imamat of our Friday Prayers whenever around. It was a pleasure to offer prayers when this person would recite the namaz. Each word would bring tears to your eyes. There was so much calmness, strength, passion and depth in the voice and the articulation that I have to give the devil his due. I deeply loved and respected his articulation and style of imamat. I have yet to come across someone with that articulation and passion. Ironically, outside of the mosque, he as a computer science major, was extremely competitive(in a negative way) and machoist. He would always greet me with wa-alaikum assalam than with assalam-o-alaikum. Initially, I could not gather his approach, but then after some thought I realized that he wanted to be wished than otherwise. I cannot tell you how mad I w,s, after I got to understand his behavior. I was too young and very busy with my program and assistantships; therefore, could not take him to task. This chap was an ideal example of what I have been stating. If you cannot mentally connect to a person, then it does not matter if they were from your land of birth or next door neighbor. On the other hand, someone who you cannot imagine being friends with, can turn out to be your confidante and best friend. In our Sufi teachings, connection of heart is a foundation of an authentic relationship, but mind configures a person's persona. So, if you read Hazrat Ghos Pak's teachings you would find the mention of the linkage and strong influence of the heart upon the mind and vice versa. With that said, I wish you a very happy and serene holidays and new year. Take Care and Please do nor argue unnecessarily :D |
| Name: | Zahra - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Location: | |
| Comments: | To all the readers and writers on this forum: Have a very khush-gavaar Eid. Hope the patience and perseverance of the month of Ramazan pays off :) Happy Holidays as well as Happy New Year. Anna: On your question, I would say a few things: a)Enlightenment is a very relative concept. I may consider a faqeer(beggar)or a man with wisdom as a truly enlightened soul; whereas, you may consider a worldly accomplished fellow as real enlightened one or vice versa. Different Perceptions :) :D b)I intentionally never designated all the four, as Indians, because they identified themselves as what I described to you. The mindset of all of them is extremely different. The Southerner has nothing in common with the rest. Being a southerner as well as brahman, there is a lot of arrogance in her attitude. Whereas the rest of the three are damn intelligent, enlightened(in their own way)and down to earth. My intent was to classify them as they did to me when we got to know each other. I have not grown up with them but the fact that I could mentally connect to them was very valuable to me. These are not the only Indians I have come across in my life. But these are some people that I really like, consult and advise when needed. In short, they fall under the category of friends. And I am very selective on this term. I hate and abhor to use this word for all and sundry. Hope I am clearer now :) Take Care. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | smash35us@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Vienna, VA USA |
| Comments: | First of all EID MUBARAK to all readers, viewers, surfers The question arises is really interesting that why the Sikhs only claim themselves as Punjabis first. The Muslims always try to relate themselves to either Arabia or Iran, whereas Hindus think themselves as a part of Maha Bharat. Some people say that it is more religious psychic than the cultural one. People always try to find their roots in the myths and past glories. The Sikh history is not too old and all their historical personalities belong to Punjab, so the attachment is obvious. Beside this all the core literature of Sikh Mut is in Punjabi so the language is the main spirit for them. On the other hand if we compare this situation to the other provinces we find upside down things and facts. In Sind, how they get the cultural maturity even in the presence of so called diverse religious society. Also in Baluchistan???????? |
| Name: | PREM S kAHLON - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pkahlon@tnstate.edu |
| Comments: | Raman Ji, just a few comments. I agree with you that all brothers and sisters of punjabi descent shoulld unite and be proud of their language and culture.Sadly that has not been true.Think of 1961 language census of East Punjab when 80-90%(I have forgotten the exact figure) opted for the other language even though some of them could not speak that language. You know that and I know that. We should not repeat the history.We in the West are much more united as Punjabi than back home. So ,good people like you need to do lot of work back home and tell them that Punjabi is not the language of "country folks".This is the language of the area that is now known as Punjab(many names before that,eg Sapat Sindhu, Maharishi Desh etc). Likewise in Pakistan one of the great admirer of Punjabi once wrote an article promoting Punjabi and one of the statement was made that Punjabi was neglected because it was considered the language of the "kafirs".As you and Sameer were saying let us learn from past and do the right thing and feel pride in our culture. Secondly I agree more with Zahra than you about the conversion. Even though Sikhism is younger than Hindu and Muslim traditions some sikhs did convert to Islam and I have never heard that any significant number of Sufis were converted to Sikhism. Guru Nanak had two sittings(dialogues) with the CHELLA(for lack of better word)of Baba Sheikh Farid and exchanged religious views and that Baba gave Guru Nanak Saloks of Baba Farid that were later incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib by Guru Arjan Dev.Both Traditions had respect for all haman being and oneness of God and conversion probably didnot take place.Please take these as friedly remaks from a fellow Punjabi as another opinion rather than criticism of any kind.It is a fact that in the past Sikhs have felt more inclined to idetify themselves as Punjabis than both of the other communitees.However, most of the poets, writers of Punjabis have always been from the Muslim and Hindu Communitees.My observation is that there are many Muslims and Hindus who are as proud if not more than Sikhs about Punjabi culture but most probably are not(I apologise for saying this). This is my humble opinion.Long Live Punjabi Culture and my deepest regards to all who have taken this big task of promoting our heritage. |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Location: | san jose, USA |
| Comments: | Outside of Punjab, in rest of the India Sikhs are called Punjabis...you go to south or far east and if they see a Sikh driver they will call him Punjabi....a relative of mine who lived in Calcutta for decades told me once that they are known there more as Punjabi than Sikhs and not just that they themselves introduce themselves to others as Punjabis. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Anna Dear: I forgot to be politically correct :D Later, |
| Name: | Anna - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | anna@notmail.com |
| Location: | Delhi, India |
| Comments: | Hairatangez lekin sach! Here is an enlightened lady differentiating her Indian friends on the basis of their castes and religion and then THEY say India is casteist. Truly Great. |
| Name: | Sameer - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Location: | New York, USA |
| Comments: | Raman: You raised an interesting point about Sikhs being called Punjabi whereas Punjabi Muslims and Hindus not being labelled as Punjabis, in general. Most of the interactors being well informed do not need for me or any other person to repeat the events of British imposing Urdu over Punjab, partition related matters and people of haryana and HP opting for Hindi as their language. Although these are the facts but they are history. If we do not overcome and learn from history, we are bound to repeat the "mistakes" that will keep dividing Punjabis even in diaspora..........How many organizations of Pakistani Punjabis or Hindu Punjabis are there in USA? Not many when compared to Sikh Punjabis organizations. It is a matter of preference of identity as well. Most Muslim Punjabis would identify themselves as Muslims, Pakistani and then Punjabi, most Hindu Punjabis would identify themselves as Indian, Hindu and then Punjabi whereas most sikhs (though not hesitating to consider themselves Indian) identify with Punjab almost as strongly as being Indian. The proof is always in the pudding! Sikhs have served Punjabi culture much more than other two groups, be it music, books, weeklies, dailies or just literature. Pakistani Punjabis knowledge of literature generally does not go beyond Heer Ranjha and that part of Sufi poetry which is sung by singers. similarly what did Hindu Punjabis, dominating the Bollywood do for Punjab or Punjabi language, except for Raj Babbar? Knowing too well that pride in Punjabi has no bearing on being Indian or Pakistani or being Hindu or Muslim, yet both of these group shy away to avoid the imaginary label of being parochial. Thus a strong identification of Sikhs with Punjab is no myth. In Pakistan the common excuse by many Punjabi intelligensia is that Punajbi is not well developed compared to other means of communication. How can a language develop if it has no backers? Other arguement is that it has too many dialects or accents to make one literary languahe out of it. Every language had and still have many accents yet the written one is always intelligable to all. How big a deal is it to write color and colour or okra and lady's finger? Not at all. |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Zahra wrote: "Somehow, I had nothing in common with the Indian Women in school as all of them were married at a very young age and were always into cooking and cleaning kind of stuff. Their husbands were spoilt brats and these women were trained mentally to cater to their husbands'whims. Unbelievable!" Zahra bhehanay, I can't believe you wrote that.:-). So that is not the case with Pakistani women?(I mean with their husbands?)? and do you know any Pakistani women whose husbands are spoilt brats and the women are into cooking and cleaning but still go to Graduate engineering/Business school? My experience tells me women getting married younger is more the case in Pakistan than in India....... But you are right on the point that one needs more than a common religion or culture to click and be true friends...it is better if you have that in common but not enough. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 13, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Raman: Thanks for your thoughts. As I was writing about the Hindus and Sikhs...I knew I was bringing up a controversial issue. Thanks for the correction. I think there are a lot of organizations in the US/UK. There is no dearth. Wherever South Asians are there are only organizations and organizations :) On the other end, places where there ain't any, there one can create one. It's human nature and very natural. You do not have to wait for someone you can start one wherever you want. Personally, I met Hindus and Sikhs first time in my life during my Masters in the US. I had a good sikh friend, sweet and pyari. Aside from that, I had no Indian friends. My leanings were mostly towards Muslims from all over the world. I could not stand South Asians for some reason that I wasn't even aware of. I guess their thinking process. I guess it was the time of exploration too. It was a wonderful experience being friends with people from all over the world who were in the US for higher education. Somehow, I had nothing in common with the Indian Women in school as all of them were married at a very young age and were always into cooking and cleaning kind of stuff. Their husbands were spoilt brats and these women were trained mentally to cater to their husbands'whims. Unbelievable! As I went into professional life, I came across a very well educated Sikh lady, who I have known for quite sometime and am real good friends with and can associate more as compared to the ones I came across in school. I could relate to her due to her upbringing in the States and a balance between her values(Eastern and Western)and progressive outlook than getting into nitty gritty stuff. Now, I am not writing this just to introduce you to both. I am stating this because you cannot be brothers and sisters just because you come from the same place. You need to be able to connect as well. Similarly, I have come across muslims who were sane as well as insane, so do not misread me here. We have all kinds in each circle. As I proceeded in professional life, I came across two real nice Brahmans and am good friends with them and can well relate to them. Once is a Punjabi and the other one is a South Indian(I never thought I could be a close friend and vice versa, but you never know). Out of my four real good friends from India, three are Punjabis and one is not. Just thought I would depict a picture here. In my case, I met all the people in the US and we have known each other for over 5 years now. With tha passage of time, our mutual respect has grown for each other. That's the best I can state. Hope it tells something. Regards! |
| Name: | H. Singh - December 13, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Jullandhur@aol.com |
| Location: | Wolverhampton, U.K. |
| Comments: | Hello, Sat-sri-akal, Asslam-alekium, Namaskar Ji. I desperatley need to find outta the ETHNICITY of the PANJABI BOLI. The VARIOUS DIALECTS (the Sweet Multani, the Vulgar 'MIRPURI' (Pothuri) the BASHA's that have come the DHART of PANJAB i.e. SANSKRIT, PALLI, the various PRAKRIT'S. I've searched the internet pretty well and I can't find any decent information. Also the INFLECTION RATES of each LANGUAGE (The amount of FOREIGN INFULENCE. I.e. ENGLISH is a HIGHLY INFLICTED LANGUAGE) Any one who can help, I would be much gratefully. P.S. Dr. Manzur Ejaz if you could help as well. I would be most grateful. RAB RAKHA, KHUDA HAFIZ. |
| Name: | jitesh malik - December 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jum107@psu.edu |
| Location: | state college , pa USA |
| Comments: | santok singh ji, I know an artist in Chandigarh who documented traditional instuments of punjab and the craftspersons who make them. The artist's name is Diwan Manna. I am going to Chandigarh for the break and would be visiting him as well. Do let me know your specific requirements and I can find about shipping from India. |
| Name: | Raman - December 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Raman434@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Punjab, Punjab |
| Comments: | Zara just to correct you said that many muslims were descendants of hindus and sikhs well hindu descendensy is correct but not sikh. Its the opposite sikhs are descended from hindus and muslims. Lets not forget hinduism was the first religion in punjab and we are all really hindus. Then came islam and then sikhism is youngest religion. So you are correct that muslims are descendants of hindus as we all are but sikhs are descendants of muslims/hindus and not vice versa. Most of the original sikhs in time of Guru Baba Nanak were all of muslim/sufi descent and many still are. But like I said before religiion should not be an issue at all we are all Punjabi brothers and sisters regardless of religion and this site is excellent. Its very sad there are no punjabi organizations in the west to unite all punjabis regardless of religion. Punjabi brothers and sisters unite. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Raman: The best thing about your point was the straightforwardness without any limits attached to it. I would equate that to a linear equation or a differential equation without any limits. I think I have also mentioned about the "sikh perspective" in some of my posts. There are certain terminologies that are used by Sikhs that I have not heard from others. That's been my experience, others may disagree. Also, a lot of Muslims(in South Asia)were/are the descendants of Hindus and Sikhs. Some of my Hindu friends would tell me that Sikhism was the off-shoot of Hinduism. So, with the Sufis(The Messengers) religion(Islam) was promoted in South Asia. Also, I think the best combination is merging the best of East and West. East gives the cultural boost; whereas, West provides the opportunities to thrive on whoever you are and whatever you want to be. Take Care |
| Name: | Raman - December 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Raman434@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Punjab, Peace |
| Comments: | This site is excellent and first one for ALL PUNJABIS with no bar of religion. Why do so many people think that punjabi means sikh it does not. Punjab is a great culture and heritage with muslims, sikhs and hindus. If u study then will know all different people of punjab. Punjabi is culture and not relgion it is real pity that there are no real organizations in the west to unite all punjabis regardless of religion. Punjabi brothers and sisters unite. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 11, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | I have posted the event's information on this board alongwith the address to mail your cheque. Please directly contact the provided number if you have any questions. Badshah: The event is in NJ. Please make a note of it. Nope, I did not get any email. My email server deletes any emails which are from shenshahs, badshahs, wazirs, sipah-salaars, khadims or their hawaris. The server only recognizes real names. Thanks! |
| Name: | Badshah - December 11, 2001 |
| E-mail: | badshah@conflict.co.uk |
| Comments: | Zahra, I sent you an email. Please reply if you got it. Thanks |
| Name: | Badshah - December 11, 2001 |
| E-mail: | badshah@conflict.co.uk |
| Comments: | Zahra, I sent you an email. Please reply if you got it. Thanks |
| Name: | Abbas Syed Hasnain - December 11, 2001 |
| E-mail: | geminisher82@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Sameer- Yes I would say there a large number of Muslim, Sikh, Hindu Punjabis in UC Berkeley, however, there isn't really a organization for just Punjabis w/ no religious barrier. What we do have is INDUS which is a combined South Asian organization (2nd largest club on campus). Contrary to many other universities, we don't have an Indian Club nor Pakistani Club. We just have INDUS which is a combination of students from India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. We do, however, have religious organizations like Muslim Student Association, Sikh Student Association, and Hindu Student Council. I do believe at California State University at Sacramento has a Punjabi Student Association with have no religous interference (www.psacsus.org). There may be many others too. I have no time to write more.....but i will be back people! |
| Name: | suman - December 10, 2001 |
| E-mail: | skashy@yahoo.com |
| Location: | la, USA |
| Comments: | uc santa barbara also has a sizable punjabi studies program with an intersting yearly conference. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 10, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Safir Rammah: I am just posting the invite on this forum. Hope it would be fine and I am not crossing the "subject" boundaries of this forum :)Take Care. ---------------- PAKISTAN AMERICAN CULTURAL SOCIETY "PARVAAZ" Cordially Invites You To The FALL EVENT 2001 (Eid & New Years Bash) ON SATURDAY, DECEMBER 29, 2001 DISCUSSION:"PEACE , TOLERANCE & HARMONY" The Message Of Islam SPEAKERS : IMAM FEISAL & IMAM ABDUL MALIK AT THE ATRIUM ST. THOMAS ARMENIAN CHURCH TENAFLY, NEW JERSEY EXCLUSIVE DJ ENTERTAINMENT ENTRANCE - $45.00 RESERVATION DEADLINE DECEMBER 16, 2001 Reservation After December 16 - $ 55.00 Walk In (Subject To Availability) - $ 60.00 CHECKS PAYABLE TO PACS Mailing Address : 298 TORTOISE LANE FRANKLIN LAKES, NJ 07417 Tel : 201-848-0699 Parking Free |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 10, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Location: | San Jose, CA USA |
| Comments: | UC Berklay has a good Punjabi program and they even host seminars and other functions promoting Punjabi Language and culture. I have attended few of these functions myself and I have noticed that most of the students taking interest in this were Sikh students. I don't think they have a Punjabi organization there but they do have Sikh Students Association which helps organize these events. Other place that is booming for interest in Punjabi by Punjabi students these days is San Jose State Univ of California. The effort is being led by few very dedicated individuals Dr. Avtar Singh, Prof. Atamjit Singh(used to teach Punjabi at UCB earlier) and one other individual(I am forgetting his good name right now), a very good fellow who is leading the effort to fund this program. I have seen him literally begging for money to run this program at Gurdwaras, Sikh functions etc. God bless them. They organized a very good seminar on Punjabi Sufism last year which was well receid by many Muslim scholars and students also.(not to mention Hamza Yousef was also invited and delivered a speech there. not sure a good thing or not:-)). I think such programs in USA and Canada are being funded by mostly Sikh community and hence tend to be biased in terms of what to cover and mostly heavily loaded with Sikh scriptures and History. It is not their fault or mal-intent. If you are going to get all your funding from Gurdwaras and Sikh orgs you will have to make them happy in order to keep it running...but I wish that other Punjabis would also participate in the funding and running of these programs at various universaties and make them more secular and broad based in nature. For that we need Punjabi organizations whose membership is not limited to country or religion. All Punjabis who can afford to support which ever way they can - money, time, facilities - should come forward and do so. once again..asiN gallaN bahut karday aan, par kamm de maukay saai bass bol jandi ay. |
| Name: | Santokh Singh Sidhu - December 10, 2001 |
| E-mail: | shawnsidhu@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Dublin, OH USA |
| Comments: | have had a very tough time finding information pertaining to certain rare Punjabi instruments that I am looking for, and I was wondering if Apnaorg could help me find them. I would be willing to pay top dollar for these instruments if they could only be found. They are the Nagoja (Alghoza), Sarung, Tumbi, Supp, and many others. Please let me know if you know of any store that might have these for purchase, or if you know of anybody who may be interested in selling these instruments. Thank you. Santokh Singh Sidhu |
| Name: | Sameer - December 10, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Location: | New York, USA |
| Comments: | Dear Abbas Syed: Good to know that UC Berkeley offers courses about Punjabi. I am just curious to know about the number of Punjabis in UC Berkeley and if there is any student organization that represents Punjabis in such a way; melting the religious and national boundries..........I wanted to talk about the impact of Taliban demise on Punjab. Right now I do not have enough material to write about it but this is the first war in that region in which Punjabi blood is not sacrified at the altars of mostly non-Punjabi ego. Most Pakistani Punjabis remained aloof from taking sides or supporting Taliban and their brand of exclusivism. I am glad to see that finally Punjabis have started looking to their interests which I hope soon will extend to accept, respect and enjoy Punjabi culture and language...phulaN wichuN phul jivaiN gulab da-desaN wichuN des mera Punjab da. This is the kind of intensity of love we need, if promotion of Punjabiat is to be served. Learn about Punjabi music, cuisine, history, geography, politics, traditions, festivals,......There is no substitute to better informing yourself so that Punjab is better served. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 07, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Mukurmee Mohtarmee Saeed Farani: You have a point on the death of the language. I have not thought from that grim perspective but I think if you live away from Pakistan then the chances for you to have any exposure to the language as well as literature will be very little as compared to those who reside there. What happens in the former case is your own initiative makes you learn or drop things that you knew or were aware of. Also, your taking out the time and investing the energies in this very business oriented environment would require a lot of personal initiative. Now, APNA in DC, keeps on having the forums and discussion sessions where they evolve aside from having a normal chat. Mr. Rammah can correct me if I am wrong. But you are right to that extent if you are living outside of Pakistan, and are a very busy professional then the chances for you to have that exposure or stay in touch with the language would be very little unless you take that initiative yourself. I have a few questions, but I do not have the time to jot them down. And they are more from the perspective of approach than anything else. I will come back on them. Take Care. |
| Name: | Waqas Ahmad - December 07, 2001 |
| E-mail: | vicks143@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Lahore, Pakistan |
| Comments: | I'm a punjabi (pure or impure is not the issue) and i don't know about it either, but does someone care to tell me why this language start sounding so Mithee and Attractive when spoken by specifically any of my sikh brother. Shareef aaadmee hun bhayee, so no offence. Am just curious as i really enjoy it to be heard of some muhtaram sardaar g. Regarding the preservation of the language is considered, main nun tay naeen lagda k ainun kujh ho sakda aye. It shall always be there in our hearts and shall be getting transfered seena-ba-seena. Wasay Husnain, woh gurmukhee wala shot was a sixer. Maza aaaya. Luv Ya all. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 07, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Syed Hasnain and Ragbhir Singh Jee, I appreciate your concern to your (of course mine too)mother language. There is a lot to discuss but we should focus our energies how we can save our dying language. First of all we have to save this language. All other things are related to its existence. Punjabi is being died in Pakistan. Every Punjabi family speaks and perhaps is compelled to speak Urdu with their kids. They want to be civilised by keeping out their forefathers' tongue. Really this is a great matter. Let's think to do something which could save our mother tongue. All the poetry and prose written in Punjabi will be of no use if there are not readers of this language. It is my heartiest request to all the readers of this site please think on these lines. Save Punjabi from death. |
| Name: | Abbas Syed Hasnain - December 07, 2001 |
| E-mail: | geminisher82@hotmail.com |
| Location: | California, CA USA |
| Comments: | Thank you for such kinds words Raghbir Singh, if we all work together to help promote and educate people of our culture, then Punjabis all around the world will appreciate of such a great heritage they have. Conversing with people like you and the start-ups of websites like APNAORG.COM are the first and perhaps most important ways to start awareness. Before taking action, we need feedback, ideas, community event postings, etc. What I would really like to see are the Cultural Heritage Organizations of Punjab in India and Pakistan, (for example, Lok Virsa in Islamabad, etc) to get involved since they should realize that many many Punjabis live outside Punjab and need to promote the understanding of our heritage outside Punjab too! Some step of this kind should be made because, honestly, people who have been outside of Punjab for a while or who have never been there, are just guessing and telling how the culture is/was, but is this really accurate? Of course, many customs and such are traditionally passed down by 'word-of-mouth' but there also needs to be a standarization and generalization to give a 'big-picture' then people will learn of particular customes common in different families, villages, areas of Punjab, etc. I would urge this great website to endorse this site much more and perhaps add more links to accurate cultural sites that teach us and our generations about our culture.......which should never be forgotten. P.S. As for the dances like 'Jhummar, Luddi, Kekli, etc and others' I know that they are still practiced in villages in West Punjab. Sindh, may also share these dances with us too. You see, this is where we need accuracy.....we can't guess about our culture anymore! Just my suggestion. TAKE CARE! |
| Name: | Zahra - December 06, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Syed Hasnain: On "Jhummar, Luddi, Giddha, Kiklee, Dhamal, and others ..." I have seen some programs on all the above mentioned in my childhood and PTV used to do excellent programs on cultural stuff.[Despite what anyone else says]I have not watched/followed PTV in the past 8 plus years, but I have great childhood memories. Aside from that, Amritsar TV also used to show a lot of programs on various cultural dances and other programs. Around 4 - 5 pm those programs used to be broadcasted. The term Giddha is mostly used in the Punjabi Songs that are sung by Sikh Singers. Also, the programs that were showed on A-TV were on Sikhs mostly. By the way, are Jhumar and Dhamal part of our regional culture ? I thought they were part of Sindh's folk dances. I can be wrong, but I thought that they were part of their folk traditions. Also, Pathans have a very nice folk dance as well, with baloon kind of dress and swords -- I do not know if it existed in reality or was part of a movie. But still it was very pretty. Everything aside, the Pakistani American Cultural Society in NY/NJ area has been organizing great programs to keep the culture/traditions/identity alive. Each program has a theme and that theme is supported by either a discussion or a skit or a reading and etc...Anyone interested in attending the upcoming PACS Event on December 29th should send me an email on my email address provided. The program will take place in Tenafly, NJ. |
| Name: | Raghbir Singh - December 06, 2001 |
| E-mail: | raghbir@punjab.com |
| Comments: | Abbas Sayed Hassain: Excellent! well done - your words are pearls to be treasured - culture and heritage of Punjab is so rich - if only everyone thought like you then Punjab would unite and be the One Land of Love and Compassion And you would be prime minister of Punjab! |
| Name: | Abbas Syed Hasnain - December 06, 2001 |
| E-mail: | ahasnain@uclink.berkeley.edu |
| Location: | California , CA USA |
| Comments: | Hello, First of all I wanted to truly commend the founders and members of this club with such a fabolous mission: promote out Punjabi culture. I am currently a student at UC Berkeley and I am Pakistani Punjabi raised in California. This semester, I am takin PUNJABI 1A. This class teaches extensive punjabi and also Gurumukhi script. But wait, I'm Muslim, I don't need Gurumukhi right? WRONG. This is where culture stops, ideas like this. I don't mind learning Gurumukhi at all! After all, much of Punjab's greatest poetry was written in Gurumukhi! I think of learning it as a 'BONUS' and it may come in handy when I visit the Indian Punjab. True, culture and religion has many ties, but its when people begin to think that culture is religion (Punjabi is only for Sikhs, Pakistan is a Muslim country so don't speak Punjabi, etc) that our culture falls through the cracks. How can we let our culture die more and more than it already has during the partition? How can government officials back in the day in Pakistan tell its people that we should just speak URDU. This is wrong! Hello?! Punjabi is spoken by 60% of Pakistan!! Punjab is perhaps the heart state for both Pakistan and India. Its music, also, has been dying. True, people know about BHANGRA, but how many people (especially Punjabi children) actually know what Jhummar, Luddi, Giddha, Kiklee, Dhamal, and others are? We need to educate ourselves before anything......I have much more to say, this is just a bit......but please keep this message in your hearts: Represent Your Punjabi culture whether you're Muslim, Sikh, or Hindu. Its One Love. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 06, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear S.Rammah: I just checked the updates in detail. And thank you very much for all the updates. Now the selection has some "Jaan" in it. I downloaded RealOne Player but there was some disruption in the reception otherwise it is much better than what it was previously. Indeed, you have invested a lot of time on this initiative. Congrats for excellent updates! Regards... |
| Name: | Zahra - December 06, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Safir Rammah: Interesting. Interesting. Now it seems that you have everything from Nusrat's songs, to his murmurs, and whispers, captured on this website :) Without any offense meant, I was getting quite tired of hearing the same plea again and again and again and again on preserving Punjabi. I mean when something cannot die why spend so much time on its life :) There are so many "qabahataen" in our culture that it's incumbent upon us to look into those than just passing light comments on the language, its origin and etc...I find the latter, to be a trait of, waelae baekaar hazraat. But that's my point of view. Anyway, I have my own approach and way of seeing things and others may not always agree with that. So, often times, I stand alone on my stance. Aside from reading poetry and listening to classical music on this ezine, I have come across some interesting perspectives as well. One of them belonged to a Sindhi Hazrat, who suggested very eloquently to topple the current government and on becoming allies with Punjabis. It reminded me of my interview trip to Dharki after my undergrad in Chemical Engineering. My parents had simply refused to let me even go to that place. I was told it was in some desert or god forsaken place. Anyway, with a lot of insistence, I told them that I would like to go out for the interview and explore the opportunities. My dearest father supported me in my decision and we headed towards Dharki(I guess on the border of Punjab and Sindh). I think it is about 40 miles from Rahim Yaar Khan. Anyway, after passing through many stations, as the train approached the destination, a middle aged gentleman boarded near Rahim Yaar Khan. After taking seat, he started talking to my father and Abu told him the purpose of our visit, amidst his allergies due to the excessive dust in the air. I felt very guilty for making my father go through the agony but there was no way that I could have gone for that journey otherwise. As soon as the fellow learnt of my interview and qualifications, he congratulated my father. But after that, he said something very strange that stayed with me even after so many years. I was in my early 20s -- 22 probably--and had no clue on the poltical nonsense and regional tussles etc. Anyway, he said that please ask your daughter to tell the locals that she is a Sindhi if she is going out of Exxon's premises; she'd be kidnapped for ransom otherwise. Inside the premises, it was fine to be a Punjabi; but outside, my life would have been at risk. My immediate feeling was:"These are sickos! Where am I off to? War Zone? Madness? Or A Multinational's Largest Facility in Pakistan?" In fact, before he left he repeated his words to me after congratulating me again. I simply did not like that. How right he was? I do not know. I did not like that mindset. I went for the interview and came out with flying colors but I decided not to join that place and save my parents the aggravation. And also, myself the discomfort. It was an experience and I wanted to get a feel for it. We have nothing in common with these people. Most of the feudals/so called elites are into alcohol. They are simply lazy and good for nothing. Yes, there is a lot chanting on the fact that they are disciples of Sufis. I have heard that from some Sindhis in my vicinity as well. Out of sheer curiosity, I inquired the extent of Sufism they follow. It was simply sad and devoid of any true and real matter. Or probably, the people I've met and have known of, fell into that category; and all are not like that. But, I did not see any similarity that was mentioned by one of the participants on this board. Each region has its own identity and of course that stays intact. But finding similarities for the sake of it is a misportrayal. Nothing more than that. I have repeatedly mentioned that each regional identity is a stand alone entity and nothing more than that. They should respect each other's existance and that's it. This was something on my mind; but I did not have enough energy to touch upon this subject earlier. Take Care. |
| Name: | Safir Rammah - December 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, VA USA |
| Comments: | Zahra: Glad to see you back on the Discussion Forum. Most of us Pakistani's, after the age of 30 enter into the stage of "BudheyWaare." By the way, Did you check the new page of Nusrat Fateh Ali Kan? I am waiting to hear your critique on his new selection of songs. You can check it at: http://www.apnaorg.com/music/nusrat2/ |
| Name: | Zahra - December 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dullah Bhatti: "buDhaywaare" What's this word? I understood the essence of your joke, but I am trying to figure out this word. Is it buDhay-waare or ....? Meaning old or aged? ??? |
| Name: | Zahra - December 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dullah Bhatti: It's all on you, how you want to utilize the Internet to your benefit. I suggest checking out ediets.com as well as some sites on health related matters, i.e Prevention (an excellent magazine for youth and buzurgs), Walking, Health, Self and etc. You can log onto ediets.com as a guest and checkout their exercises and diet routine. It's a great site. Best of Luck :) Please start the goal setting for next year without any delays. Also if you decide to join ediets($10/month) please let me know. I will request you to put me as the person who referred you to them and gain one month's membership free :) |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Zahra ji, I will think about your advice to fast to 'lose' the 'gains' of last couple of years. I have to admit this net surfing does not help in that respect at all. My guesstimate is that for every 100 hours of surfing we gain 1 pound. and God knows how long internet is going to be there...buDhaywaare te goDay bhaar chukkan jogay vi nai rehnday:). |
| Name: | Waqas Ahmad - December 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | vicks143@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Lahore, Pakistan |
| Comments: | I was looking for Sultan Bahu's kalam tay mainun mil gayee aye site. Changgee aye par lok tay aithay v larday payay nain. Chnanga aye. kissay kammay tay lagay. BTW, i salute the person responsible for the idea as well as the construction of this site. Punjab is as great as the punjabis are. kaddee wapas aaaao na khushbo laaaaa k. Rab Raaaaakha. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dulla Bhatti: If you consume soda that often, I suggest you start fasting asap. It may help the unhealthy extra extra pounds gained from many many years :) There is something special about this month. If you fast without having the special sanctity deep down inside and without being focused on the purpose of your fasting -- it means nothing. In other words, if a ritual has to be performed, for the sake of it, then nothing is gained. If it is performed with full alertness and gaining the spiritual strength(putting your heart and soul in it)then you cannot even imagine how much is gained mentally, emotionally and spiriritually. Expressing "that" gain or feeling in words is not my forte. I suggest one has to feel that feeling and take it from there. Take Care! |
| Name: | M Iqbal - December 04, 2001 |
| E-mail: | miqbal@quraneasyurdu.com |
| My URL: | http://www.quraneasyurdu.com |
| Comments: | This is a Very Good site depicting punjabi literature, mustic and discussion. We friends found it by chance through a search engine. Bravo. M.Iqbal www.quraneasyurdu.com |
| Name: | Priya - December 01, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Pkalia2@aol.com |
| My URL: | |
| Comments: | Hey, I'm punjabi and I love my culture. I got this site on a search engine, and I think its really good. I'm doing a research project on Punjabi Art. Can someone please help me? Priya |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 01, 2001 |
| E-mail: | DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Abdul ji, I did not mean it that way. My apologies. For a person like me who can not even give up coke/pepsi for a month, I can understand how big a deal it can be to control ones desires and taste buds for 1 whole month. Happy Ramzan once again. |
| Name: | Abdul Sami Bhatti - December 01, 2001 |
| E-mail: | youngpakistan@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/youngpakistan |
| Location: | Islamabad, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | The Essence of Ramazan is not to shed Pounds of Fats from your body but how to defeat your body desires against your will from Sahr to Maghrib. I would like to Wish all who is going through this Holy month and fast ...a very Happy Ramazan Mubarik. May Allah Accept their Prays. Allah hafiz. |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 01, 2001 |
| E-mail: | DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Location: | San Jose, USA |
| Comments: | A very happy and fullfilling month of Ramzan to all our Muslims friends. Way to go to shed those extra pounds hanging since last year.:-) |
| Name: | Zahra - November 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Happy Ramzan to all those who fast and are fasting! Have a very nice, peaceful, rewarding, serene, enlightening and eye-opening fasting month! Amen!!! |
| Name: | Vijay Kapoor - November 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | vkkapoor@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Renton, WA USA |
| Comments: | Hello Suman ji: I would like to thank you on behalf of all Punjabis like me (who can only speak) on undertakng the tremendous transliteration job of poems, articles and discussions for APNAORG. I am planning to visit India in the near future and will try to get some help from my father who can read shahmukhi script and is very adept at english typing but has never used a computer for such purposes. Will apprecaite if you can email me the dtailed process of how to write punjabi using english alphabets. Thanks. |
| Name: | Zahra - November 17, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Raman: I think I was clear on your intent. I have an interesting incident to report. I was at a recent family wedding where one of my uncles was discussing the current political scenario in Pakistan with me. He has migrated to the US approximately 15-20 years back. He is the only one who moved to the US at a later stage in his life. The rest of my family who has moved here has been here for much longer period of time. Their second and third generations are born and bred here. So, this uncle is very diligent about reading each and every news on Pakistan -- consulting each and every newspaper. While we were exchanging views, I suddenly brought up this issue of the Punjabi Identity. I was amazed to hear chacha's views. He said exactly the same things that I have been hearing on this board off and on. But interestingly, in Pakistan, I have never come across them. Probably, as the family is mashallah huge and well spread, so such things are not given a lot of importance. People are more secure there in terms of their identities. Also, I think those who have daughters they end up paying more attention to rituals and traditions and etc...whereas those who don't have one, their focus is a little different when it comes to culture. I have noticed this amongst Pakistanis in the US; their vision and focus about their own community changes as they move here. But the ones who come from well educated backgrounds, their way of thinking and interacting with others is very different. They would rather sit and learn from those who they can well relate to mentally. On another note, I ran into a guy who was telling me a trend in his family. His family had migrated after partition to Lahore and his mother was very particular on marrying the daughters in Muhajirs whereas the sons were allowed to marry outside. I think all of them got married to Punjabis. Now, this person was telling me his family tradition without realizing my deep down inside inclinations :). I gave a few scenarios on cultural trends that I have observed. Personally, I have more interest in cultural stuff than language only. Language is important to learn about the customs, stories, folk-lores and etc from our ahdae'-raftaa kae poets(late poets) but there are many things that make or break a community aside from language. By saying that I do not want to negate the essence of this site, a place that I love very dearly. And I completely understand the concerns that many have on this board, but if all of us would start worrying about one issue then who will think about the others :)I want to take care of the other issues :) And personally, I have yet to hear this word "dhaggas" in my enlightened life. And I would slap a person right across his face before he dares to utter such obnoxious thought. There are many jahilae mutliq amongst other communities as well. In fact, amongst those who chant a lot on their superior Urdu. But then, even the non-punjabis, I have in my family, friends and acquaintences are quite well educated and I cannot think of them having this kind of mentality that we hear and read often on various boards on the internet. As far as your comment goes on Todar Mal, I do think you have the right information. Someone with more information on Todar Mal should care to jot down his views. I am very interested in learning more on him due to ancestral links. |
| Name: | Raman - November 17, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hrtz8@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Thanks Zehra. I must at the outset say that it is not my intention to start "flaming" or anything of that sort. I also understand that this is a forum essentially for Punjabis. What I am trying to do is understand the concerns that "Punjabis" have on so many issues. Having qualified my participation, I would like to state that I was jsut using the name of a particular group such as "Rajputs" as a representation of various Pre-Islamic groups. Regarding Todarmal and others I understand they were from the Princely states of Rajputana as opposed to being "Punjabi". I would like to focus on the socio-economic status of these "pre-islamic" groups after they were Islamised. Also continuing on my quest to find the similarities between "Punjabies' and others I must state that no ethnic group or linguistic group in South Asia can be considered to be homogenous in a racial sense. |
| Name: | Dhagga - November 13, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dhagga@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Punjab, Punjab Punjab |
| Comments: | I agree with the friend that the allience between Muslims of Punjab and Pushtoons is very unnatural. They are in fact enemies of each other. They hate each others too. These are the mullahs who are blackmailing Punjabi dhaggas. Punjabies did blunder having allience with the paracites of UP and CP against our sons of the soil bretherns Sindhies. Punjabi muslims have to pay the price of their blunders. Poor Punjabi dhaggas. |
| Name: | Zahra - November 13, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Raman: Very interesting questions. But in your questions there is a hint of "assumption." I am also interested in learning about the famous clan of Rajputs :) Probably, someone far more enlightened can give some history without going in wrong directions. Personally, I am not sure if many of us can even write about the Pre-Islamic Periods very confidentally except for the text-books information, our own ancetral trees and word of mouth. Someone whose field is cultural research will be the best candidate to explore this avenue. While some research is being conducted, I would also like to make a request: Information on Todar Mal. I have read very briefly about him that he was incharge of land-revenues in Akbar's times and was part of Emperor Akbar's Special People. |
| Name: | Raman - November 13, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hrtz8@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Greetings. I am a South Asian with interests in both the Northern and Southern traditions of India. I have based on my limited knowledge of Punjabi language found some similiarities in its format and organisation with Southern Indian langauges in some areas. I thought this was too interesting to let go by. I found out how Sindhi was considered to have some links with Southern Indian languages. I also found about Brahui which is probably Southern before it was influenced by Baloch. I am interested in the history both pre and past Islamic history of Punjabi peoples who trace ancestry to "indigenous " peoples such as Rajputs etc as opposed to those who trace ancestry to Persians, Arabs etc. I am trying to to study how Islam has influenced the lifestyle of people of sub-sontinental origin. Every state in India has people who accepted Islam as their religion and I want to make a comparative study with West Panjab and SIndh. I would prefer history texts, geneological accounts etc. Thank you for your help. |
| Name: | Misty - November 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | misty--1@juno.com |
| Comments: | Hi, I am a college student and really need your help! I've been emailing and posting messages and nobody will respond. I am doing a report on the Punjabi culture and need some input from Punjabi Americans. I have just a couple simple questions to ask. It is easy, non binding, and anonymous. Please help. If you are interested, please email me. Thanks |
| Name: | Zahra - November 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Well, I don't think that anyone on this board is giving this impression that Punjabis are superior human beings as compared to the other ethnicities. But, something that stood out for me being in the US, was the repeated emphasis on ethnicities. In Pakistan or I should be more specific, in the Pakistani Punjab, there is a sense of security which would not make one chant every now and then on the Panjabiyat. Whereas people from Karachi(no offense meant, but I am not very fond of their taur tareeqae)have this very clearly defined that who's who. Even I have come across quite a few educated women from Karachi who would ask asap: Where are you from? Karachi? I could never register these women's mentality. I still cannot. And I avoid to even understand that. I simply cannot relate to them at all. Period! Just felt like stating my observations! I also think the reason behind Sikhs having a stronger leaning towards Punjabi Language may have to do with the teachings of their gurus. Probably, as the religious teachings are in their language therefore it is natural for them to lean towards that language. I can be wrong and would like to be corrected if I am indeed wrong. I think the teachings of Guru Nanak Saheb are in Punjabi? Or probably were translated in Punjabi? |
| Name: | Abdul Sami Bhatti - November 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | youngpakistan@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/youngpakistan |
| Location: | Islamabad, Pakistan |
| Comments: | If I am not wrong....as far as the Punjabi language is concern, it would live as long as there are Sikhs in this world. They are the the ones who are doing best these days....e.g in all terms of Punjabi Arts and Culture. They are the only single identity of Punjabi exists in this world which from outside and inside looks Punjabi. Now come to the main Point that is Punjabi...what is Punjabi....it is just a Language...which connects with its respective culture and heritage. As far as language is concern, it is used for communicating to others. All different languages are based on the same principle. Offcourse you could express your feelings...meaning...thoughts in mother language more than secondary languages....but it doesn't mean that we should not learn other languages.....we do...learn them ....but don't leave...or abondened our mother language.... there is a famouse saying...Hans chala More ki chaal apni chaal bhi bhool gaya. Keep the language to the boundary where it is necessary...beyond that use other language....use languages for our own sake and facility.....don't use them...to discriminate with others...no one is superior than others....When you call Punjabi language it is just a language...when call Punjab it is a peace of land identity in Pakistan and India....but when you talk of Punjabi Person is a Human like others...all are the same...made by Allah. All these differences are just for our identity purposes....and not for making one superior on others.... Allah hafiz |
| Name: | farrana - November 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | fyogi@ivillage.com |
| Comments: | I was wondering how much it helps to adopt arabic into ones native language? How does Shahmukhi help to learn and read Quran? Does it help at all? Or its better to have Gurumukhi? |
| Name: | Paramvir Singh - November 11, 2001 |
| E-mail: | paramvirsingh@hotmail.com |
| My URL: | www.geocities.com/theloststory |
| Location: | Calcutta, WB India |
| Comments: | Hi! i have started a short story and poetry site for amateurs and i would love to have some work from Punjabi people reflecting the Punjabi Culture. I would love to have as many contributions as possible at www.geocities.com/theloststory thanks |
| Name: | Sarfaraz - November 10, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saf@juno.com |
| Comments: | Punjabis have been sleeping at the wheel of the car. The car called Pakistan. Sooner or later this car will crash and all will suffer. |
| Name: | A freind - November 10, 2001 |
| E-mail: | na@na.na |
| My URL: | |
| Comments: | Sameer is correct. Right now what we have is an unnatural Punjabi-Pushtun alliance. Just wait and soon the Pushtuns will backstab us for the Taliban and Afghanistan. Its a shame that Punjabis have not allied thmselves with Sindhis against the racist Urdu elite. |
| Name: | Sameer - November 09, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Amer Akmal: What do you mean by stating that we Punjabis will take care of the Army? To the best of my observation there is no sign of any Punjabi taking care of the military dictatorship. Punjabis did not do a didly squat when an inept non-Punjabi (from Hazara) retired general was imposed as governor of Punjab by Mush for two years before rewarding another of his Kashmiri buddy recently. What did Safdar do for Punjab better than Shahbaz Sharif? Any roads, bridges, colleges, schools, universities, ;aw and order situation-nothing. Actually punjabiat of Pakistani Punjabis only flickers when discussion is about military or religion/ sufism; rest of the time it hibernates. Notice how easily Mush was able to destroy (good or bad, irrelevant) PML with almost 90 percent seats in Punjab Assembly. PML had about 210 seats out of 240 seats and Punjab government was being run much better than federal government before the coup. Within 6 months, PML was split on directions of mostly mohajir generals. Is this you mean by Punjabis taking care of military? Feudalism is not dying in Punjab; it is changing its nature under changing circumstances. Punjab is becoming more urban and feudal lose power in urban environment. Moreover, being the perpetual scapegoat, they are spreading their assets into industry and stock markets around the world thus making it difficult for any government to confiscate their property for being in opposition or in case of any future land reforms. It is important for other ethnicities in Pakistan to learn and follow Punjabi model of inter and intra-tribal relationship, feudalism and urbanization and Pakistani Punjabis should follow the example of success of Indian Punjabis in culture, economic, social and educational arena. Punjabis and Sindhis should be natural allies in Pakistan for sharing common heritage for thousand of years. The Mohenjo Daro, Harappa, Rig-Veda, Rajputs, Jats, Indus river and common proto-languages derived from different accents of Prakrits. We should not only share the water of Indus, but share common cultural heritage and most importantly miseries and happinesses also. Unlike common feeling in Pakistan against native cultures, I am absolutely thrilled with Sindhis being proud of their culture and prefering their language wherever possible. |
| Name: | Amer Akmal - November 09, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pindiwal_99@yahoo.com |
| Location: | caldwell, NJ USA |
| Comments: | Reply to Mr. Chandio. We punjabis will take care of the army but can you make sure that they will not be replaced by a Pir, a Mukhdoom or a Bhutto. Feudal system is dying in Punjab but Sind politics even today is dominated by the big land lords. And as politicians they are doing a good job of keeping their status intact by blaming every problem in Sind on the Army. |
| Name: | Amer Akmal - November 09, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pindiwal_99@yahoo.com |
| Location: | caldwell, NJ USA |
| Comments: | Reply to Mr. Chandio. We punjabis will take care of the army but can you make sure that they will not be replaced by a Pir, a Mukhdoom or a Bhutto. Feudal system is dying in Punjab but Sind politics even today is dominated by the big land lords. And as politicians they are doing a good job of keeping their status intact by blaming every problem in Sind on the Army. |
| Name: | A freind - November 08, 2001 |
| E-mail: | none@na.na |
| My URL: | |
| Comments: | If Lashkar-e-Taiba can have Yahoo! Group, I'm sure Punjabis can to! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Taiba_Bulletin_Urdu |
| Name: | A friend - November 08, 2001 |
| E-mail: | none@na.na |
| My URL: | |
| Comments: | Hi, great website you have here. And also the discussions here have been informative, though I'm afraid that this guestbook style discussion format isn't helping much with the flow of thought. I would strongly recommend that the people in-charge here start a Punjabi forum/mailing list at gropus.yahoo.com. Their are already countless Urdu, Sindhi, Pushto, Seraiki, Balochi forum at Yahoo! Groups, but no centralized Punjabiyat forum. In fact in many of those other forums, people pass racist anti-Punjabi messeges but their is nobody to counter them. I think the people here could offer such a counter-force by showing everybody that all Punjabis have not giving up their language and culture as everybody thinks so. Plues the threaded discussion format and mailing list options would be a huge plus to the current format. Please think about this, and if technical assistance is required, I am ready to offer it. Though its fairly simple to set-up a Yahoo! Group. |
| Name: | Zahra - November 07, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | On Overthrowing: I read the comments with great amusement. You overthrow someone if there is an alternative alive and breathing. How can you consider toppling anyone when you have no replacement? By the way, rather than proposing such "amusing concepts" it will be highly appreciated if each province can keep their own qiblaa in the right direction. Just blaming everyone in the world for your problems will never reap any reward. That's a typical plea of the misdirected ones. |
| Name: | jitesh malik - November 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jum107@psu.edu |
| Comments: | just a correction. my e-mail id is jum107@psu.edu and If anyone knows about contemporary punjabi artists from East Punjab? I am reading an autobiography of the artist Satish Gujral who spent his life in Jehlum before partition. Just read the chapter on partition and the traumatic experience of people. We address so less about such a big event in out literature or art. I wonder if it is to do with the fact that punjabis are progressive by nature and don't want to look back. I think talking and exchanging would help heal better which I don't think we have since partition. I would like to interact with visual artists from Pakistan and if there is a possibility of adding information about them in this site? |
| Name: | jitesh malik - November 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jum@psu.edu |
| Comments: | For Farah, I recently visited the sheesh mahal museum in Patiala (West Punjab)and they do have some texts in gurmukhi in form of books etc. I do not have the exact address of the museum but would try to find it. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - November 05, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab, Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Mr. Akram Chandio, I understand your grievences against the Punjabi military. Though it is not very justified to call Pak-military as Punjabi military because they don't think they are Punjabies. If they ever had thought they were Punjabies then what has been happening with their mother tongue and culture since the birth of this country, certainly it would not have happened. I don't call them Punjabies and they are not. Dear Chandio, would you believe that today if there are some Punajbies they are like chooRas (maleechch) of this country. You are lucky that you talk with your kids in your mother tongue. Your kids learn how to read and write in Sindhi. They read the verses of Shah Latif. So you are hundred times better than me. That is reason if there are some few Punabies (with conscious brains) then they are worst than even any minority in Pakistan. They are shrinking day by day. Most of the Punjabies are modified into a new group called Urdabies. They hate the language of their mothers. They speak Urdu and only Urdu with their kids. They don't even feel that they are doing the biggest blunder in this regard. They don't know thay have to cut the crop they are seeding today. They are the most gullible people who are easily tamed on the name of religion. This is very unfortunate so dear we are in a minority and we cannot fight against Pak military. Pak military is very strong. Pleae don't call it Punjabi military. Mr. Chandio, if even then you persist saying Pak Army as Punjabi military then you must understand that our military consists over armymen from Punjab, Pathans and Kashmiris. We also cannot ignore reasonable quantity of Muhajirs (Urdu-speaking) among the officer caders of Pak Military. Urdu speaking people like to join army's officer or official cader. They are intelligent and educated enough. They are called the brains of the Pak army or Pak force. I request to some of my other safe friends to satisfy Mr. Akran Chandio. |
| Name: | naveed hussain - November 03, 2001 |
| E-mail: | naveedshahkr@yahoo.com |
| Location: | inchon, in korea |
| Comments: | Dear sir, very good site, |
| Name: | naveed hussain - November 03, 2001 |
| E-mail: | naveedshahkr@yahoo.com |
| Location: | inchon, in korea |
| Comments: | Dear sir, i am Mr naveed shah from korea at your member list. i change my hame,So please wright my contact information as Mr naveed hussain shah. Handphone number #019-815-5319. e,mail Noveed@onebox.com Address. inchon city,popyung Gu,shipjung 2 dong.near the tong station inchon,korea |
| Name: | Muhammad iqbal - November 02, 2001 |
| E-mail: | iqbalmuhammad1st@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Muridke, Punjab PAKISTAN |
| Comments: | we should take interest about our language and literature. we should seek more about punjabi. we can proud of our culture. apna site is doing good for the punjabi. |
| Name: | Akram Chandio - October 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | a_chand@cyber.net.pk |
| My URL: | N/A |
| Location: | Hyderabad, Sindh Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear, why don't Punjabis stand up to the oppressive military? If Punjabis do that, the people of Sindh will be with them all they way. Sindhis have suffered lot at the hands of the military junta of Pakistan, and we also blame Punjab for stealing our water. But why then Punjabis let this happen? Should we not fight together to overthrow the repressive militristic state of Pakistan? Right now we are fighting each other. Plese think this through. |
| Name: | Farah - October 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | FastFerrari@excite.com |
| Comments: | I am carrying out a university project about the management of documents in Punjabi lanuguage from its origins until present day - this means all types of punjabi documents - paper based or electronic. Documents can be anything - books, magazines,journals, public records, official documents and especially I need to know about the official documents that were kept previously and are presently kept in Punjab in the Punjabi language. Where can I get this information from and can anyone please help ? |
| Name: | Mohamad Khan - October 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | mohamadkhan@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | i probably should have posted that with paragraph breaks...my bad. does anyone know, by the way, where i can buy some of Fakhar Zaman's novels (or novellas) and books of poetry *in Punjabi*? i've read them translated into English and Urdu, but i've never been able to find the originals...as though they had never existed. in fact, it would be nice if there were an online Punjabi bookstore that sold titles from Pakistan, somewhere on the web. i was planning on going to Lahore and Lyallpur/Faisalabad/Nusratabad over the winter break, but it looks like Usaama bin Laadin and George Dubya Bush have conspired to make things otherwise. I get to stay here and attend peace rallies...6000 innocent people dead in New York, millions more about to die in Afghanistan. peace be upon you. |
| Name: | Mohamad Khan - October 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | mohamadkhan@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Salaam/Sat Sri Akal/Namaskar, good to see this awesome site still going, though i still wish that we could talk about the punjabi language *in* the punjabi language....oh well ;o) first off, i've been working on the problem of accomodating the punjabi scripts on the computer, and automatically converting from Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi and vice versa.... i've created a macro that will allow the user to write in Gurmukhi in Microsoft Word; it exploits context sensitivity and simple key combinations. so, for instance, if you type the word "apna" in Gurmukhi, the macro will automatically distinguish between the initial and medial "a", so you don't have to worry about it. it was a very simple macro to write, and to the best of my knowledge, it's flawless. i'm sure there are programs out there that do the same, but this one has the advantage of being in Microsoft Word itself, so you don't actually need another program, and furthermore, i refuse to make anyone pay for it. i've been too busy to create more than one font for it, but if anyone wants to give it a test run, pls let me know. creating a similar macro for Shahmukhi in Microsoft Word has been more difficult. i'm not sure whether i want to rely on Microsoft's new right-to-left technology, as it's been rather inane, in my experience. however, i have so far been able to establish context sensitivity, so that, as in Parsnegar, Raaqim, etc, perfectly-joined words are produced via simple keystrokes. my problems lie mainly in handling some of the trickier aspects of right-to-left composition, such as deletion, line breaks, paragraphs, etc. if anyone has any idea re how i can reduce my right-to-left pains, please let me know. once this second phase is completed, i'll move in on the kill. that is, i'll implement a third macro that will phonetically convert text, from Shahmukhi to Gurmukhi, and vice versa. in the first case the task is relatively simple, as i've revised the Shahmukhi alphabet slightly to bring up to equal status with Gurmukhi. the only problems would be nasal N's in the middle of words, and those pesky H's and R's in Gurmukhi, as in "sri" or "chullha"...Gurmukhi readers know what i'm talking about. again, once this is complete, i will distribute it for free. from Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi is more difficult unless we are to be content with a purely phonetic transliteration, because Gurmukhi makes no provision for Arabic-only sounds such as "saad", "the/se", etc. to accomplish full-fledged transliteration in this direction, we would need a database of deviant words, or, even better, a Punjabi dictionary in database form. unfortunately, i'm currently writing several essays simultaneously (on Chaucer, Shah Husain, Salman Rushdie, and Elizabeth Smart), and i won't have much time till after exams. so, if the APNA waale ever do decide to create an online Punjabi dictionary, i would suggest that they do so in Microsoft Access, using one of the compact Singh Bros. dictionaries for starters, and one of the more compact Urdu dictionaries as well, to compensate for the Pakistani Arabo-Persianisms that the Singh Brothers understandably leave out. not only would such a database make an online Punjabi dictionary possible, it would also complete the task of transliterating between Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi, and could be used as the basis for an online thesaurus and/or rhyming dictionary as well. now that would be a site worth visiting. if ever you need volunteers for such an endeavour, let me know. |
| Name: | SHRESHTH MANI GOYAL - October 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | anuj_mani@yahoo.com |
| Location: | MOGA, PB. INDIA |
| Comments: | I AM VERY GLAD TO KNOW THAT PUNJABI CULTURE ARE WORKING IN AMERICA TO SURVIVE THE PUNJABI LANGUAGE IN PUNJABI AMERICAN PEOPLE.AS THE PUNJABI LANGUAGE IS SUCH LANGUAGE WHICH CAN BE SPOKEN WITH LITTLE EFFORTS BY THE PEOPLE OTHER THAN PUNJABI.PUNJABI literature and culture AND LANGUAGE HAVE IMPRESSED AND HAVE A RESPECTABLE PLACE IN ALL OVER THE WORLD.YOU MIGHT HAVE LISTEN THE SONG "PUNJABIAN DEE HO GAYI WAH BAI WAH" BALLE-BALLE. |
| Name: | Safir Rammah - October 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| My URL: | http://www.apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, VA USA |
| Comments: | Abul Sami Bhatti: Thanks for your suggestion. A good selection of Anwar Massod's poetry, including an article by Ahmed Nadeem Qasmi and poem "Aj Kee Pakaye" is already on APNA web. You may read it at: http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/anwar/ |
| Name: | Vikram Sikand - October 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | viksikand@hotmail.com |
| Location: | new york, ny USA |
| Comments: | dear suman aunty, yes indeed it is me. i am well having recently completed my residency and now a practicing physician. i am so glad to have discovered your membership in the group. nice to know you enjoy the sufiyaana tapes. i will have to share more of my collection with you when i return to los angeles. hope you and your family are all well. |
| Name: | Abdul Sami Bhatti - October 27, 2001 |
| E-mail: | youngpakistan@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/youngpakistan |
| Location: | Islamabad, Pakistan |
| Comments: | I would like APNA to add to its web site some Punjabi Mazah Poetry, such as by Mr.Anwar Maqsood. Below is a glimps of his poetry. Aj Ki Pakaye Written by Anwar Maqsood. Chaudry: Aj Ki Pakaye dass tera ki khiyaal aih. Rehmeyan: Mein Ki Khayaal dassan, meri ki majaal aih. Chaudry: Rehmeyan, chal aj fir chaskay i laga laiyeh. Labh jaan changiyan tay pindian paka laiyeh. Rehmeyan: Wah wah tussaan bhujhiyaan nain dillaan diyaan choarian. Mera vee aih dill sih pakaiyeh ajj toariyan. Lowwaan walli pindi howay, pota pota lammi howay. Harri tay kachoor howay, sohni howay, cooli howay. Which howan bakray diyan, putth diyan botiyan. Naal howan chhandian tandori diyan roatiya. Makhnay da pairra howay, lassi da piyala howay. Pindian day nakhray, tay garm masala howay. Pindian banana vi tay koi koi janda aih. Rinnanah pakana vi tay koi koi janda aih. Utthan fir Chaudry ji, pharan main tayyarian. Pindian banawan aj rajj kay kararian. The rest you can read it on Young Pakistan Site:http://www.geocities.com/sami_comsats/disforum/poetry.html Allah hafiz Abdul Sami Bhatti |
| Name: | jitesh malik - October 26, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jum107@psu.edu |
| Location: | state college, pa USA |
| Comments: | Dear All, The discovery of this site has been a wonderful blessing to me. It is not only a chance to know people from east Punjab but also a resource to find out about my own culture and language. been born in Chandigarh, a modernist city, there has been a cultural vaccumm in me which gets stronger as I grow old i think. Is there anyone from Panipat on this forum. My grandparents(and my parents) migrated to Panipat in 47. I miss the language they spoke- all the educated - most of my generation at least in my larger family does not speak th elanguage any more. anyone who can speak jhangi? Love to all Jitesh Malik |
| Name: | suman kashyap - October 25, 2001 |
| E-mail: | skashy@yahoo.com |
| Location: | la, USA |
| Comments: | vikram sikand. are you pal and gita's son? if so, how nice to hear your voice on this site. i still listen to the sufiana tapes you gave me many years ago! hope all is well with you. |
| Name: | Sajid Amjad Sajid - October 25, 2001 |
| E-mail: | sajid@bci.edu.pk |
| My URL: | http://angelfire.com/home/sajidamjad/index.htm |
| Location: | Islamabad, Pakistan |
| Comments: | I love you all. |
| Name: | J B Sameer - October 22, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | A good informative article from Pakistani daily Dawn, dated October 23, 2001. A folklorist from Sialkot By Shafqat Tanvir Mirza What are the favourite subjects with the literary magazines in Punjabi published from Lahore and elsewhere? Punjabi folk literature has always interested many scholars, including Richard Temple and Rose with Skemp did a lot of work in this field. It was under the influence of the officers-cum-researchers in the Raj that a Lahore-based lawyer, Ram Saran Das collected folk songs from central and southern Punjab to be followed by the famous Urdu short-story writer Devinder Sathiarthi. Syed Sibtul Hasan Zaigham has contributed a piece on another folklorist Vanjara Bedi's death to the monthly Lehran's October issue. Bedi died in August this year in Delhi where he had settled after migrating from west Punjab in 1947. Born in 1924 at Sialkot, Prof Dr Sohinder Singh Vanjara Bedi had developed deep interest in folklore just after partition when he shifted to Delhi. He felt the need to preserve the folk heritage of the Punjab which was being neglected by the Punjabis themselves. Accordingly, he started writing an encyclopaedia on Punjabi folklore. The job was too big but the non-Muslim Punjabi refugees found weight in Vanjara's argument that if the folk heritage of the Punjab was not preserved, it would disappear altogether. Bedi successfully contacted the refugees from Potohar, Jhelum, Gujrat and Mandi Bahauddin. He himself was well-versed in the folk tradition and collected invaluable material in book form but no publisher was ready to publish it. Bedi himself published the first four volumes of the encyclopaedia from Delhi. The job had been completed in 1978 when Zaigham visited Delhi in connection with the urs of Amir Khusro and first met Dr Bedi at the Delhi Dayal Singh College where he was a teacher. Undaunted by the difficulties in his way, Dr Bedi carried on his job and a Potohari publisher in Delhi who happened to be a friend, published the next four volumes. Before his death, his publisher, Payara Singh Data, published two more volumes so that now the encyclopaedia comprises ten volumes. In Pakistan, no such work has yet been undertaken by any individual or institution because we do not have the necessary resources. Some writers attempted similar work but found the conditions most unfavourable. One of them was the late Afzal Parvez from Rawalpindi who first collected the folk songs of the Potohar area. For a very long time, he could not get them published because neither private publishers nor any government-aided organizations were in favour of such an enterprise. The second was Dr Mehr Abdul Haq from Muzaffargarh who collected some folk songs from the Seraiki belt. Both books were first serialized by the daily Imroze which ceased publication some years ago. Later, some other writers made some contribution in this field but they were not of much significance. Towards the fag end of his life, Afzal Parvez had prepared a folk encyclopaedia of Potohar for the Lok Virsa. Unfortunately, Lok Virsa has abandoned the job and the work has yet to be published. An article on folk-songs on marriage ceremonies has appeared in the current issue of the monthly Varolay from Gujrat. The author, Baba Muhammad Shafi Zargar, has collected many folk songs of which some have a local touch. In the same magazine, there is another article about the folk songs related to Sawan, the rainy season. There are two articles about the Punjabi language and its current educational and cultural status are also included. They are by Manzar Farani from Faisalabad and Tasleemullah Jandran from Mandi Bahauddin. The Savair International from Lahore carries perhaps the last episode on the Harappa civilization by Iqtidar Karamt Cheema. This part of the article deals with the decay of the Harappan civilization about which no final verdict has so far been given. Most scholars are of the view that the Aryans destroyed the Harappa civilization under which fell Moenjodaro and Ganveriwala in the Cholistan desert. This may or may no be so but now Punjabi writers are showing greater interest in their cultural roots and Cheema's article is in the same direction. The current issue of the magazine carries an interview with the well-known fiction writer, Farkhanda Lodhi, who started her literary career as an Urdu short story writer and now says that she writes in Punjabi with much greater ease. She is convinced that punjabi gives a freer hand than Urdu. She thinks that after the creation of Pakistan, the purposes of this great movement have been totally sidelined. She calls it the death of a romance. The interview with Ms Farkhanda Lodhi was in English. It was translated in Punjabi by Jamil Ahmad Paul. The monthly Pancham from Lahore carries three poems by the famous Urdu and Punjabi fiction writer and critic, Kartar Singh Duggal, who had migrated to India from Dhamial (Rawalpindi). One of his poems Potohar, bemoans the loss of his roots: Potohar heh naan ik jannat da, Sohan naddi us vich wehndi heh, Laam toan murria dhol vaikh kay, Akh jivain koi cho paindi heh. For Duggal, Potohar is a paradise where the Soan river is like a woman's tears who is extremely happy over the return of her beloved from war. |
| Name: | Tirath - October 22, 2001 |
| E-mail: | minhas7@home.com |
| Comments: | Dear sir Some where on this site or any where on the web can I find the urdu and Punjabi(Gurmukhi) script. In case some one wants to learn on internet. |
| Name: | Vikram Singh Sikand - October 19, 2001 |
| E-mail: | viksikand@hotmail.com |
| Location: | new york city, NY USA |
| Comments: | Fahim Sahib, Thank you for your concern. I am well albeit traumatized by recent events. Hope all other members (official and unofficial) and their loved ones are well. May God grant all of us wisdom and restraint in these very troubled and dangerous times. Rab raakha, Vikram Sikand |
| Name: | Zahra - October 19, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Readers and Writers: Just wanted to wish you all a very happy and serene Fall Season. Those of you in DC/VA area must head out to Shenandoah Park, VA. The following has some links for those living in the other parts of the US. http://local.msn.com/special/travel5.asp. While this site represents the subject of music, culture, literature and etc. from Punjabi Origin, it is important that we realize what enriches one's soul that in return starts appreciating the simple, but fine things nature has to offer. Please do look around yourself: carefully evaluate put'ta put'ta and boota boota; and look into the shades of orange, bronze, green, red, rust and colors in the same category. Over the past month or so many things have happened and I feel we have to be grateful to God for what we have as well as nature offers us. I cannot write anymore on this subject as I would rather be on the road appreciating the nature. I would depart to welcome the Fall Season. Happy Fall to All! |
| Name: | Safir Rammah - October 18, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| My URL: | http://www.apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, Va USA |
| Comments: | Zahra: Thanks for your reminder about Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. I still plan to get the songs you had previously listed from Pakistan and add them to Nusrats page. In the meantime, let us hope his soul doesnt visit our discussion forum to read comments about his singing and rests in peace. Farah: I hope your love and enthusiasm for Punjabi and Punjabiat is of weapon grade and highly contagious. Thanks for the nice comments. Hasan Raza Gondal: I am currently working on the Shahmukhi version of Sawe Pattar by Mohan Singh. I finally got a copy of this book, courtesy our friend Mahmud Fahim, a while ago. It is an old addition and kitaabat is of poor quality. It needs to be typed in Urdu Word Processor before it can be added to APNA Web. I have typed about half the poems so far. I dont have a copy of Amrita Preetums Navin Rut in Shahmukhi, yet. I do now have a complete collection of Amritas poetry in Gurmukhi and have added it to the assembly line of books waiting for their turn to appear on the web. Vijay Kapoor: One of our members, Suman Kushyap is looking into the possibility of transliterating Punjabi literature and poetry into vernacular English. Putting a complete Punjabi dictionary on the web is a major undertaking and has to wait till we complete some other basic sections of Punjabi literature. By the way, we have created a new Heer page. Do check it out. |
| Name: | Zahra - October 17, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Mr. Rammah: I think the music links are doing much better now. But still you need to update the selection sung by Nusrat Fateh Ali. I hate to say that but the selection is quite maathi(weak). The songs are aen'wae'n. I gave you such a long list earlier and can provide you more, if needed. Please do look into that. You have all his rotae' hooae songs out there, whereas his lively and poetic versions are not there. :( Very Sad! |
| Name: | Farah - October 17, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Farah@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | This is really an amazing site - a MASTERPIECE its what I΄ve been looking for a long time - WOW is all I can say - brilliant work So many people out there who need to visit this well done to all the people who made this PUNJAB ZINDABAD BE PROUD TO SPEAK PUNJABI AND DON`T FORCE URDU/HINDI UPON YOUR KIDS AND BREAK SUCH A RICH CULTURE AND HERITAGE BE PROUD OF YOUR ROOTS JIYYO! |
| Name: | Hasan Raza Gondal - October 15, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hrgondal@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Birmingham, UK |
| Comments: | Safir Ji Boht vadhiya site ey. Yakeen karo dil khush ho giya ey. Punjabi poetry vich Amrita Pritam te Mohn Singh nazar nahin aaey. Mumkan heve te "Navin Rut" te "Saave Pattar" vi zaroor shamil karo. |
| Name: | Zahra - October 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Mahumud Faheem: I was not sure of the poet myself, but this has been sung in two different ways by Nusrat Fateh Ali. One is the original qawwali style, whereas the other one is like a song. The first one, is more authentic version with traditional lyrics and music, whereas the second one wraps the lyrics and sounds like an abbreviated version. Personally, I prefer the 1st one. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - October 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Thank you very much suman. |
| Name: | suman - October 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | skashy@yahoo.com |
| Location: | la, USA |
| Comments: | the original poem is attributed to bulle shah and goes - 'ghadiyali deyo nikal ve, mera piya ghar aya, lal ve |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - October 14, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, VA USA |
| Comments: | Folks! Mera Peeya Gharr Aaya O Lal Nee OR Mera Peeya Gharr Aaya O Ram Jee Which one is original and who is the poet? |
| Name: | Shivender Shandilya - October 12, 2001 |
| E-mail: | shiven_shandilya@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Boston, MA USA |
| Comments: | Excellent Website! Safir ji. The fact that a goldmine of such rare punjabi music and culture is available on the web is indeed commnedable. Brilliant. Please keep it up. All the Best. |
| Name: | Vijay Kapoor - October 11, 2001 |
| E-mail: | vkkapoor@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Renton, WA USA |
| Comments: | Hello Safir Ji: I was wondering if you have given any further consideration to my request of transliteration (writing Punjabi in vernacular English). since the home page is written that way so I belive we have the capability to do so. I also realize it is probably a time consuming process. But I request to make a start. It will be a great contribution to Punjabi literature if we are able to put some kind of dictionary on the web for people to understand some of the difficult words they come across during reading the articles or listening to songs. Last but not the least I again thank you for fixing the problem on Shiv Kumar Batalvi's songs and adding some more to the list. I really enjoy the Heer CDs you sent me. Look foreward to listneing more of Heer excerpts. |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - October 11, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Reference Farana's disussion of Punjabi dresses. I think that before the influence of foriegn cultures, the dress for both Punjabi men and women was a long shirt (and may be a peice of cloth - chadder - in even older times) and a lungee or dhotee. Even today, in many backward areas of Punjab, men and women wear a long shirt and a chadder as lungee and dhotee. I have seen that recently in the villages of Jhang, Sialkot and and in some other areas where villagers still don't wear shalwar. This is strictly based on my personal observation |
| Name: | farrana - October 09, 2001 |
| E-mail: | fyogi@ivillage.com |
| Comments: | Salaam Sorry for the delayed response. I will be sending the cd soon with that song. In regards to Punjabi culture. I think Slawar-Kameez is a very recent invention just Dupatta added to it not originally originated from Punjab. All muslims in south asia used to wear any shape of frilled dress or Kameez with long pajama underneath with a head cover before marriage. And the modified version is todays slawar kameez. All muslims is south asia used to wear Saree after marriage. Wearing Saree for grand mother and all trend started growing around nineties in Punjab, Pakistan. I have seen somewhere on the web some diplomat's wife stayed for few years out of her home country pakistan Punjab, So to her surprise when she came back to Pakistan around 90 she found herself wearing saree and everybody wore Salwar kameez. She thought everybody would be in saree as it was the dress worn by everybody at that time. She didn't know when the trend changed. She was embarassed for being behind the trend in that party. So if you want to find out get grand mother's old wedding picture or any old picture not recently taken you will find them in Saree. When this trend started Pakistan to have their own muslim identity and culture adopted Slawar Kameez as their ethnic dress but overwhelmingly sikh and hindu punjabi also adopted it as their ethnic dress. In regards to food I know kebob originated from Turkish or mughal time. All meat related food is not ethnically Pu jabi as it was vegetarian sect for being predominanty Sikh and Hindu region. So ethnically they have Islam or Muslim root in it but not necessarily they are ethnically Punjabi food. Qawaali as well has Islamic root in it. It came from the mystically-minded islamic sufis. So Qawaali was formed in different languages other than Punjabi Its in Urdu, Bangla speaking muslims also enjoy Qawaali in their languages. Therefore its also not ethnically belongs to Punjab but rather muslims to south asia and the rest. Then again Culture did develop by lot of exchanging of muslims and nonmuslims culture here in south Asia. http://chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/kawali.html So what is ethnically Punjabi?........ |
| Name: | Qayum Baig - October 09, 2001 |
| E-mail: | qaumbaig@postmaster.co.uk |
| Comments: | The main thing is that the Pakistani Punjabis have an inferiority complex. It so sad to see the Pak Punjabi youth not able to converse in their mother tongue, and not able to take part in family get-togethers that are usually in Punjabi. I saw this happen a few weeks ago at a friends party. We were all sat in the lounge and having major discussions in Punjabi and joking, but I looked at the youngsters in the room who were all staight faced because they could not get the jokes! That is the sadist party of Punjabis forcing Urdu onto their children. They cannot tap in the wealth of knowledge that our grandparents have, because they cannot communicate! |
| Name: | Hardeep Dheensa - October 08, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Jullandhur@aol.com |
| Location: | Wolverhampton, U.K. |
| Comments: | Sat-Sri-Akal, Asslam-Alekium, Namaskar fellow Panjabi's, Hello. Firstly Congratulations to the editors, supporters etc. of this site, it's a great site and more like this need to be set up. But I have a few questions. A few months back I bought a Panjabi Dictionary called: "THE PUNJABI DICTIONARY" Orig. Pub. 1854 Compli. Bhai Maya Singh It is a ROMAN-PUNJABI-(GURMUKHI)-ENGLISH dictionary. It was orignally based on a 1841 Punjabi dictionary: Glossary of Multani Dialect which was complied by the Ludhiana Mission. It was issued in 1849 and finally published in 1854 under the supervision of Revd. Dr. Newton. Some years after the dictionary went of print. In 1884 Mr. Denzil Ibbeston the then director of Public Instruction, Punjab decided that a NEW Punjabi dictionary should be bought out. Anyway to cut a long story... they asked Munshi Harsukh Rai, Proprietor of KOH-I-NUR press in 1884. with the Govt's. funding to revise and englare the original dictionary. Sir Charles Aitchison, Lieutant-Governor, Punjab decided that instead of just the MULTANI and MAJHI dialects, the WHOLE PANJAB should be inculded and this was so. Munshi Rai died in April 1895 and the book was finally completed after 10 years endeavour by Bhai Maya Singh. It is a very big dictionary with 1221 pages in total. The dictionary is very informative with WORDS of FOREIGN EXTRACTION being stated. Word Gurmukhi spelling Context KUDRAT (Gurmukhi Script) (s.f.) Corrupted from the Arabic word QUDRAT. Divine power, nature, universe. BANDA ( ) (s.m.) Corruption of the Persian word BANDAH. A human being, a slave. This is the style of this dictionary. As I realise there are a FEW MISTAKES in the publishing of the Book. Not all words of FOREIGN EXTRACTION are stated. e.g. words like SHAKKAR, GANJ, SHER, LASHKAR etc. are classed as PANJABI words when infact they are PERSIAN and TURKISH words. Which leads me to my questions. If anyone is familair with the dictionary in terms of the RELIBALITY of it's sources in terms of the ETHNICITY of the WORDS inculded in the DICTIONARY, I would be grateful if you would mail me. Secondly, any who knows about the MULTANI DIALECT, again any INFO. WEB ADDRESSES etc. would be most appericated. e.g. Common words, how to learn to speak MULTANI. Thirdly something I've been doing a little RESEARCH/CONTEMPLATING over, is PANJABI culture itself. Where for example would I find about the ETHNIC FOOD, CLOTHES, LANGUAGES, MUSIC, POETRY of the PANJAB. Like the SALWAR (SHALWAR) KAMEEZ, KURTA PYAMA the common dress of the PANJAB is infact of ISLAMIC/ CENTRAL ASIAN descent. So what did the PANJABI'S wear before the introduction of the clothes? The QAWWALLI is a ARABIC VOCAL STYLE... but what about the instruments used:- TABLA, DHOLKI, BHAJA etc. are they ETHNIC PANJABI????? Are the styles of the RAAG'S of the GURDWARA and the RAAG'S of QAWWALL from the same source??, Who invented this style of music:- TABLA, DHOL and RAAG's etc. Is food like SABJI (SABZI), SHORA etc. ETHNIC PANJABI CUISINE or ARABIC, CENTRAL ASIA or PERSIAN cuisine???? Cause words like SABZI, SHORA are of ARABIC and TURKIC descent. Questions like these about the ETHNICITY of PANJABI CULTURE .. for me need to be answered... AND ANYONE WHO CAN ANY WAY HELP..... I would be most GRATEFUL. Thank You. |
| Name: | Safir Rammah - October 06, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| My URL: | http://www.apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, VA USA |
| Comments: | Farrana: I have sent you the same via e-mail. These lyrics were written by a famous poet from the Rohi, Multan area. His name is Mustana. I am not sure if he is still alive or not. It is very common for Punjabi folk singers to invoke the name of their favorite Sufi poet or Pir in the opening part of the song. This singer has invoked the name of Khawaja Ghulam Farid, rest of what you have quoted is a DewahRa of Mustana. I would like to put this a tape on the music section of APNA's web page. I will greatly appreciate if you could send me a copy of the tape of Mustana's songs that you have. I will also be happy to convert the tape into a CD and send it back to you. After listening to the song, I might be able to provide you the correct text as well. Let me know. Safir Rammah |
| Name: | Farrana - October 04, 2001 |
| E-mail: | f_ogra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Toronto, Ca |
| Comments: | Is it by ghulam farid? Please I need to find out who sang this song? Correct lyrics for this song. I liked this song a lot. so I need to know the correct meaning. Its a looong song. I have this on tape. I would like to get it on cd if its possible. so far its about Sassi-punnun. Its qawaali type with harmonica and tabla. First few lines goes: O Sassii Dil de naal khyal karendi Mai ta kechdi mal ka thisa jad parni sa O kechdi malka thi ke jeeve Vadi fula de naal tulisha jad parni sa Ea laal dushala(shawl) pun re vaala Mai ta baha ke sira diya sisa jad parni sa O Ghulam Farida Nai khabar sassi to ai ta Thal (desert) mar dafli sa jad parni sa I will appreciate it a lot please please..... |
| Name: | omar ali - September 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | omarali50@hotmail.com |
| Location: | new york, USA |
| Comments: | dear sameer, we might sometimes wish that american soldiers would come and rid us of our fundamentalist/fanatic headache..but this is unlikely to work. thats because the american pentagon is also a human institution. they go by habit and familiarity. in this case, they are familiar with our generals and basically like them from the good old days fo the cold war. so they will further strengthen the army (or atleast, they will try to do so). they dont really care if our army commits terrorism in kashmir or karachi. they want osama's address and the ISI has it and is willing to sell! so i dont have high hopes from this american response. but i do think that in the long run, pakistan and two nation theory are going to fall apart....probably with a lot of violence. meanwhile, lets hope and pray! omar |
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