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Name: Concerned Punjabi - June 20, 2002
E-mail: concerned_punjbai@hotmail.com
Location: Islamabad,      Pakistan
Comments:   arun kaka- Pupoo yaar tang na kar. E Urdu loriyaan te marssiye kithey hor ja ke sunna. Chal shabaash. Jeenda roh. Paa jee moderator sahb ehnoon zara qainchee mareyo jey. meharbaani.


Name: arun - June 20, 2002
E-mail: arun_k20@lycos.com
My URL: http://drop.to/arun
Location: OP, KS     USA
Comments:   kahaa.N aake rukane the raaste
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
kahaa.N aake rukane the raaste, kahaa.N mo.D thaa use bhuul jaa
vo jo mil gayaa use yaad rakh, jo nahii.n milaa use bhuul jaa

vo tere nasiib kii baariishe.n, kisii aur chhat pe baras ga_ii
dil-e-beKhabar merii baat sun, use bhuul jaa use bhuul jaa

mai.n to gum thaa tere hii dhyaan me.n, terii aas me.n tere gumaan me.n
havaa kah ga_ii mere kaan me.n, mere saath aa use bhuul jaa

tujhe chaa.Nd ban ke milaa thaa jo, tere saahilo.n pe khilaa thaa jo
vo thaa ek dariyaa visaal kaa, so utar gayaa use bhuul jaa


Name: arun - June 20, 2002
E-mail: arun_k20@lycos.com
My URL: http://drop.to/arun
Location: OP, KS     USA
Comments:   kahaa.N aake rukane the raaste ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ kahaa.N aake rukane the raaste, kahaa.N mo.D thaa use bhuul jaa vo jo mil gayaa use yaad rakh, jo nahii.n milaa use bhuul jaa vo tere nasiib kii baariishe.n, kisii aur chhat pe baras ga_ii dil-e-beKhabar merii baat sun, use bhuul jaa use bhuul jaa mai.n to gum thaa tere hii dhyaan me.n, terii aas me.n tere gumaan me.n havaa kah ga_ii mere kaan me.n, mere saath aa use bhuul jaa tujhe chaa.Nd ban ke milaa thaa jo, tere saahilo.n pe khilaa thaa jo vo thaa ek dariyaa visaal kaa, so utar gayaa use bhuul jaa


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 20, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Here is the link where you can get antivirus for thease sort of virus.
http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/tools.list.html


Name: Safir Rammah - June 20, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Zahra:

Thanks for bringing it to my notice. I been out of town for almost two-weeks now on business trips and will be in NJ until next Monday. My PC, where my address book resides, was shut down and disconnected from Internet before I left and has remained that way since then. The virus that you have mentioned has infected many e-mail programs. I have been getting at least a dozen or two empty e-mails from folks I know and also from e-mails unknown to me (probably empty because they get cleaned up by the virus protection program before they are downloaded on my machine). The virus is devious enough to clone different identities that are picked up from infected machines' address books leaving no clue of its origin. For example, it can pick your e-mail ID from someone else’s machine and send e-mails that will look like they are being sent by you. Besides normal virus protection that includes regularly updating Norton for new virus definitions, I manually run Norton every week to make sure there is no infection on my machine. Let me know if there is anything else I need to do.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 20, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dullabhatti ji Amrinder Gill bahut sohna gaunda hai, ohde kaarfi albums aye hun. Ik ohda geet bahut pasand a mere called 'Madaaniya' ohee taraz te gaaya "Madaaniya, kinna jammeeyaaN kinna ne lai jaaniyaaN. Lekin ohda geet hai Madaaniya jehrian jamman toN pehla maar gaayaaN...it is about the wretched practice of gender selective abortion. As you may well know, saade vaaste ik bahut sharam dee gal e, ki Punjab ch es vele 1000 munde jaamde ne, te sirf 791 kuriaaN..one of the worst records in South Asia. Chalo kee hoya phir JattaN ne barak naal nee gaunaa e, malookre jahe Ranjhe varge aaj ghat hee paida hunde ne.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 20, 2002
E-mail: dullabahtti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   I so remembered in the morning to listen to Bali show but totally forgot during lunch hour even though I was in office. what a luck! who is Amrinder gill? Bali ji, I bought some DVDs lately..actually that was mrs Dullabhatti who bought..but I got the chance to watch on and off...so many new names..particularly jatts...lagda saare maraasi bann jaan ge...I mean I never heard about any singer named Mangat, Grewal(other than that guy who sang with Surinder kaur few duets), Brar etc. before..waise ziyada gaun waale jatt, aRinghday ziyada te gaunday ghatt..damn..I am good...that even rhymed.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 19, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Rajeev ji shukriya towada...they were both an absolute pleasure and the honour was all mine...I was quite in awe of Ustad Puran Shahkoti although he was incredibly humble. Tommorrow I believe Amrinder Gill will be paying us a visit.


Name: Zahra - June 19, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Moderator: Concern
I do not know how this happening but this has been going on. Due to a certain virus in your address book(in my opinion), many are getting messages from others right and left without any text. Interestingly the sender does not now that they have sent out that message. I have been on both ends without my knowledge and ended up checking with my Lan Support. It turned out that it is something to do with the address book. And this virus just chipkofies with the addresses in the address book. You must look into it and see what can be done, if anything. Thanks


Name: Zahra - June 19, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Saleem: When you have a point, you must speak up without any hesitance. A point is a point. One should not give a damn for anyone if your point is valid to you. But if you will continue holding it to yourself without letting the others take a peek at it, you will not get many to understand it very well. Laiken, it all depends on your intent. If your previous remark implied something that you do not want to delve into, that's fine. Just make sure that you come forth and say that. :) Thanks.


Name: rajeev - June 19, 2002
E-mail: rajeevbhardwa@hotmail.com
Location: los angeles, ca     USA
Comments:   grrreat show bali jee!!!!...shahjada salim and puran shah koti jee are the best...i am still listening to the show but could not help typing any ways...rab bhala kare tuhaada...


Name: rajeev - June 19, 2002
E-mail: rajeevbhardwa@hotmail.com
Location: los angeles, ca     USA
Comments:   grrreat show bali jee!!!!...shahjada salim and puran shah koti jee are the best...i am still listening to the show but could not help typing any ways...rab bhala kare tuhaada...


Name: bagga - June 19, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Speaking of Sabar Koti, he is the ugliest, punjabi guy i have ever seen in my life =).


Name: Bali K Deol - June 18, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dullabhatti, Shikra, and Gursharan ji towada bahut shukriya sabna da! Hanji enaak te mainu pata hai, eh vee pata ki enaa da bahut bhaara accident hoya see, and that enee Sabar Koti nu vee training ditti hai. Master Saleem da viah bahut choti umer ho gaya see, te ohda puttar vee gayaki de raah piya hai. If you have any more details pls, pls, I'll be preparing tonight so saun toN pehla je vaqt lagge te zaroor likh diyo.


Name: Shikra - June 18, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali: yes, DullaBhatti has said most of what there is to say about Ustad Puran Shakoti. Master Saleem did indeed start off as a child singer but now his voice has matured and you might have heard his latest tracks on Punjabi MC's album...Dhol Jageero da etc.

There was a rumour that Master Saleem was sent to pakistan to further his vocal capabilities for a number of years. Puran Shakoti has not only trained singers but he has also trained musicians too. Ask him about an old friend of mine, Dharampal Pali, dholak master who now works for jallandhar radio, he is an artiste who started off and toured with Hans Raj Hans in the early days.

Its nice to know that Puran Shakoti has at last got the oppertunity to tour canada, I was once told of a comment he made about his pupils finding fame and fortune but not once asking him to accompany him on foreign tours.

Dullahbhatti ji, about the comment about Charanjit Ahuja in your post, you are right about him not being Hans Raj Hans ustad but he is considered a genius in the Punjabi Music industry and having the oppertunity to work with him personally I can confirm that he is a true master in his field and every artiste in the industry has the utmost respect for him and his work. He is not just a Music director he guides and moulds the artiste to get the very best out them and that is why he is respected so highly by the top punjabi artistes.


Name: Gursharan Singh - June 18, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, va     USA
Comments:   Hello Bali Ji

in re: to your quary about visiting pooran shah koti and master salim in your studio. Pooran shah koti is a from distt. Nakodar about 12-15 miles away from jalandhar. he is hans raj hans Ustaad. and his son master salim is chela of hans raj hans. master salim's first singings has big influence from Ustad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan Saheb I guess because of he has a capable throat to bring out those garrarian which NFAK was famous for. That's the only info I have on these peyo-puttar. Hope this helps. and by the way!!! thanks for sharing this info on the forum. Good luck with show. You should feel proud to see such a person as Pooran Shah koti is. Look forward to hear your show tommorow.

RAB RAKHA


Name: Zahra - June 18, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Saleem:
What does the following mean?
"It was developed by certain people in Lahore in the sixties with a certain purpose in mind. " Who were they ? Where are they?


Name: DullaBhatti - June 18, 2002
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bali ji, Puran Shahkoti is ustaad of Hans Raj Hans. One time Hans Raj refered Charnjit Ahuja in some interview as Ustaad ji. That caused lot of controversy because his ustad was alway Puran Shahkoti. Later on Hans Raj clarified that he called Charnjit Ahuja Ustaad ji in a general sense as most singers used to call him ustad ji but his real and only Ustad is Puran Shahkoti. Puran Shahkoti is a fakeer singer..he sang classical and qawaalis all his life then one day Hans Raj came to him as a kid. He wanted to sing. Puran Shahkoti did not preach him his way of life but told him I will teach you to be a great singer and performer. You are going to be rich and famous. I just read a book on Hans Raj Hans and it has lot of deatils about Puran Shahkoti also. Hans Raj lived with him for years in his small home and he treated him like a son. about 12 yrs ago when Bhatinda TV station opened they had Saleem as one of the singers(he was only 10/12 then)on their opening night. People praised him a lot and some newspapaers wrote next morning that how could Jalandhar TV not notice this kid...they used to live a walking distance away from Jalandhar studios. Then they wanted him also..and he became a young star in days. He sings very good and I think will do better in future..right now, it is not easy to out do two the bests, his father and brother Hans, for him. He has too much competition right at home:-).


Name: mastmalang - June 18, 2002
E-mail: mastmalang256@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sameer ji ,
Very nice post. I hope you are not saying that Sufi poets had no progressive social content as someone has tried to interpret it from you. You may have a point about sufi’s being used for the darbar but it cannot be generalized. Some people are really strange and blinded by their hatred for an individual. They cannot differentiate between Bulleh Shah and Mian Mohammad Bakhsh and still claim to be experts of text. They assert themselves as historians negating others about happening of a certain incident and when proved wrong they go on without accepting their mistakes. This is not a scholar like thing. And who are those Lahori conspirators referred to here again and again? As for as I know 90% of Punjabi activists have come from the left and not the Jamaat-I-Islami …Religious/spiritualists are still preaching Urdu-Islam-Pakistan.


Name: Shuja Bajwa - June 18, 2002
E-mail: shujabajwa@hotmail.com
Location: Lahore,      Pakistan
Comments:   Sameer ji ,
Very nice post. I hope you are not saying that Sufi poets had no progressive social content as someone has tried to interpret it from you. You may have a point about sufi’s being used for the darbar but it cannot be generalized.
Some people are really strange and blinded by their hatred for an individual. They cannot differentiate between Bulleh Shah and Mian Mohammad Bakhsh and still claim to be experts of text. They assert themselves as historians negating others about happening of a certain incident and when proved wrong they go on without accepting their mistakes. This is not a scholar like thing. And who are those Lahori conspirators referred to here again and again? As for as I know 90% of Punjabi activists have come from the left and not the Jamaat-I-Islami …Religious/spiritualists are still preaching Urdu-Islam-Pakistan.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 18, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   HELP!

Dullabhatti ji and Shikra ji I have a feeling you are going to be the ones to come through on this. I have just had it dropped on me that Ustad Puran Shahkoti and his son Master Salim will be in my studio tommorrow. I'm looking for as much information as I can get. Anyone???


Name: Bali K Deol - June 18, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   http://www.hinduonnet.com/folio/fo9811/98110400.htm

An interesting article on Punjabi Music aptly titled 'Languishing Traditions'.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 18, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar@yahoo.com
Location: LA, Ca     USA
Comments:   Sameer: It is good that you are part of the discussion on Sufi’s. Your postings raised a very basic point that we must study and understand the Sufi thoughts and their role in the history of Punjab in the larger context rather then just reading the text of a few Sufi poets. My main concern is a certain point of view that presents Punjabi Sufi’s as social activists of the highest order and revolutionaries who rejected their own religions and invented a new consensus-based religion and what not. As you have correctly pointed out that generally their, “…. message of love and peace, it had little practical implication. The sufis were very fond of going to secluded retreats for extended period doing chilla and other forms of mind concentration in addition to maarfat, zikr, qawwalis and dancing.”

This point is very important that the primary goal of true Sufi’s has always been first and foremost their own spiritual growth. They were totally dedicated and focussed on their love for God, if they were true Sufis. Everything else was incidental. It wasn’t the other way around. It was not that their primary purpose was social activism and for that purpose they decided to become Sufi’s.

It is also wrong to characterize all Punjabi Sufi poets the same way during almost a 1000 years in Punjab’s history. To say that Baba Farid, Sultan Bahu, Waris Shah, Ghulam Farid or Mian Muhammad had rejected Islam or its basic tenets to develop a consensus-based religion is simply not true. Such liberties can probably be taken with Shah Hussain and Bulleh Shah, but only up to a limit. The reach such conclusions by reading one line of Bulleh Shah (or after careful study of his whole poetry) and then apply it to ALL Punjabi Sufi poets is wrong.

Zahra: You gave me good advice. I understand your perspective. Unfortunately, this is not the first time that I have come across this misguided materialistic Sufi theory. It is not original at all. It was developed by certain people in Lahore in the sixties with a certain purpose in mind. I know some proponents of this theory and what you have read here is just the tip of the iceberg. There is more to it then what meets the eyes. May be I should wait for it to slowly unfold here and then respond. I agree that there is nothing completely black and white in any discussion and the best we can do is to agree to disagree.


Name: Jaswal - June 18, 2002
E-mail: gqrajput@yahoo.com
Comments:   Saeed: I don't see how Hindus brought hatred in humanity because the caste system is neither an invention of Hinduism nor it is exclusive to South Asia(yes, it exists among Muslims in Paksitan too). Caste system is one of the main characteristics of agrarian societies and you'll find it wherever agriculture practioners exist ranging from the our Indus Valley to the Aztecs in Mexico to numerous tribes in southern Africa. It just so happens most of these societies have become extinct while our north indian society is still thriving. Plus the western class system isn't any better than the Indian caste system. And, you do find such divisions all over the world. In either case, I don't think Hindus hate Muslims like you say they do; it's only the few extremists.


Name: Sameer - June 18, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bali: That little sentence you wrote,"Sameer ji, jee aaya nu! Kitthe rahe ainee der tusi?" came to my mind several times today. Had you said it in English as "welxome back! where have you been" or in Urdu as "kahaN thay aap! zamaney key ba'ad aaye haiN" would not have the same sweetness, friendliness, respect and affection dripping from every word of it. Does anybody else feel the same way about Punjabi expressions? Punjabi language tends to shorten the words or quantity but it tremendously adds quality with such simple phrases. I recall, Rammah Ji writing about Shivkumar Batalvi expressing love in Punjabi language of unmatched quality. Actually I am glad that you said it in Punjabi and did not add anything further. Dil khush ker dita!!!


Name: Saeed Farani - June 18, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Bagga, I agree with the contents of ur post that how Hindus were treating Muslims and how they are treating them nowadays. If the Hindus were good enough then this region could not become the most complexed and even more horrible place on the earth. Unfortunately, the caste system which is full of hatredness Hindus brought these bad days to the humanity. Muslims(specially convertees) for them are like ghroN nasi KuRi ya fer moonH choN nikle ke zamin te diggi hoi burqi. They can't accept muslims as humanbeings. Nanak came to coincide this two opposite direction lives and the third one generated in the form of Sikhs. Then all these religions were divided into many sects. Such human beings division you will not find anywhere on the earth. What a pity.


Name: Sameer - June 18, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Saeed Farani: Thanks for clarification about the time period of Khawaja Ghulam Farid. He lived indeed during British Raj, late 19th century. How can I do such a mistake with my favorite sufi poet? I am a big fan of his, because of his strong accented Punjabi resembles somewhat with my own background of Lyallpur-Jhang, although Sultan Bahu’s Punjabi comes closest to my accent. When I was writing about cozy relationship with British Raj, it was Pir Mehr Ali Shah of Golra (near Islamabad) on my mind.

I also would like to make it clear that my disinterest of all things spiritual do not make my love for 8-10 sufis - out of hundreds or perhaps thousands – any less than rest of the APNA baradri. Their message of love and peace, even a myth, serves us better than rejecting it. The myths with low or no negative sides must continue to become virtual reality. Muslims love for sufis makes them closer to Sikhs because both sufis and Baba Guru Nanak Ji valued love and peace and the influence of Bhagti movement makes them allies rather than foes. Unfortunately in practical terms it did not work more often than it did. On one hand Sikhs came in conflict with Mughal Empire and on the other hand, strict ritualistic and dogmatic mullahism surpassed sufism among Muslims. However, in the new paradigm shift, taking place recently, it is more likely to work. In addition, repeated and honored references to Bhagti movement are likely to bring Hindus on board too. More common grounds, better it is for Punjabi language, Punjabis and for peace in South Asia.

In addition to the reasons I outlined in my previous post about motives of the message of love and peace, it had little practical implication. The sufis were very fond of going to secluded retreats for extended period doing chilla and other forms of mind concentration in addition to maarfat, zikr, qawwalis and dancing. These may be successful techniques for personal spirituality quest for sufis, but they do nothing for the followers in practical terms – actually work against the message of love and peace by decreasing contact period with followers. At the same time, contemplation and deep thinking is perfect menu for creative thinking such as composing poetry. Both Qadriya and Chishtiya schools concentrated on extended chillas (sometimes 40 day of seclusion and away from disciples at a time). They created the best poetry. Suharwardiya were more into zikr and maarfat. Their contact period was longer and therefore more influential in addition to close links with the rulers. Qawwali was also more popular with chishtiya than any other. Qadriya were most independent minded with tendency to almost totally giving up everything in pursuit of union or oneness with God.

Bagga: The conversion to Islam is still open-ended research topic and most of the material is usually found in research papers, seminars, symposiums and perhaps in the “International Journal of Punjabi Studies (?)” edited by Ian Talbot out of some university in Britain. The reason is that two extreme myths appear on either side. One contends that most of the Muslim conversion came from low caste Hindus in which forced conversions contributed significantly. They corroborate it with the social pattern as the article you mentioned (University of Oregon – Partition Project) whereby conservative Brahmins kept separate utensils for serving Muslims even in mostly Muslim area of Rawalpindi district (the article mentions overlooking Murree Hills and therefore it has to be Rawalpindi district). The remarkable successes of Hindu Khatris in education and business during the late 19th and twentieth centuries due to superior racial genes (upper caste) and a relatively lower social group of fruit and vegetable growers called Arain fully conversion to Islam are presented as additional proof. On the other side, Muslims contend the love and peace message of Sufis mainly responsible for conversion and the Arabic or Middle Eastern origins of Arain, Awan, Malik and Abbasi tribes. Bestowing all the credit to sufis also sidelines any explanation of accepting and becoming proud of the religion of invaders who might have treated their forefathers harshly or even killed them. The truth as I said in my previous post is the combination of several different social, economical and political reasons prevailing over several centuries. Moreover, relatively late arrival of Sikhism and its remarkable better than Muslim success in conversion during 16-18th centuries contradicts both sides and favors tribal loyalties and strongly tied to native culture in addition to social, economical and political factors. I will go even further, though without evidence, that whoever respected and loved Punjabi language and culture succeeded in converting people. The worst enemy of Hinduism in Punjab might have been overly Sanskritizarion of religion by conservative Brahmins and Hindustani language. The center of Hinduism shifted to Ganges plains after Kurukshetra Epic and Punjabi Hinduism came under the domination of some form of Hindi. There is a lesson for Punjabis to be learned here. You lose every way, if you lose your language.

Regarding your other point about Muslim-Sikh relation not so lovely even in the past, two things: one, it is difficult to guess what percentage of population actually took part in supporting or opposing relationships across religion divide; two, most religious groups generally lived in ghetto style exclusive neighborhoods and villages making the impact of hostility less inhospitable at day to day practical level. Moreover, it is the crossing of a threshold that matters, beyond which it becomes detrimental. In US, go to any work place and people try to cut each other down in order to move up. In NY history, the Italian, Irish and Jewish immigrants hated each other, yet New York became the center of economic power. The reason is that government never allowed these groups to cross the threshold. I hope, if short of brotherly love, the Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims can understand the price of crossing the threshold and think in terms of optimum conditions to keep the fire below threshold point. Do I make any sense?

Now Bali, you will ask, “where have you been?”. Coming to APNA is like homecoming and it is time consuming.


Name: Zahra - June 17, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Safeer Rammah: Your "rudimentary" efforts at moderation are appreciated, but please make sure there is consistency in those efforts :) That's real important.

Saleem: Thanks for your compliments in the previous post. They looked cool in black and white. Also, I conducted a mutali'a of the point that you had posed to me alongwith a few others. There is a clear message in the thoughts being narrated by Dr. Ejaz. If I were you, I would step back and re-read them. I think you were interpreting things very literally whereas they were not meant to be taken literally. So, there will be a glaring difference. Your points were very straightforward and right in the face. I think due to a lack of such kind of discussion pattern on this forum, this style created some ripples. You should stick around. Challenges are a great way of learning the nuances of human mind and how it sees and interprets certain things. If everyone agrees with each other, there is no fun. It's the disagreement that leaves a lasting impression.
Also, the more I think about it, the more I am forced to say sufism is a unique discipline and I would rather consider our poets in the category of saints and sages than sufis. I think at times they are categorized in that category to put them under a big umbrella. And this can create confusion. Sufis had disciples due to certain school of thought they promoted. Poets are not in the same category. If out of sheer respect we want to elevate them in such a category that's one thing, but they do not promote a school of thought where disciples started following them. My two cents. There is another point: thinking pattern. Again, thinking is a unique human way of seeing things and you cannot say that one is right and the other is wrong. You can only say, "To each their own." Reminds me of a small incident in which I was very vehemently praising someone's forthright approach by telling my father, "But he spoke his mind and stood for what he believed in..." And the response came, " Yes. There are choars and dakus who will not be hesitant in admitting that they committed a crime. We can also appereciate their straightforwardness." I had never thought about that logic and was taken aback. I still smile thinking about that very point. Point was...I am sure you must have gotten that.


Name: Zahra - June 17, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Bali Dear: It meant that now it's time to take a break and disappear for sometime. On a serious note, my "disappeared post" was showing some resistance in that black hole it was sent to and responded in a "karuk" manner. That's it. By the way, I did not plan to write what I wrote. It was the protest of my previous post. I was just obliging its wishes :)


Name: bagga - June 17, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Sameer ji, very interesting post indeed. Can you reccomend any books pertaining to the spread of islam in punjab? Also from the link i posted before, a sikh man from india punjab is interviewed about his exprience in the partition, he talks about sikh/ muslim relations in pre partition punjab:

"Actually whenever we went to attend a Muslim wedding they gave us dry rations, which were cooked by our men. But whenever a Muslim came to our house he was treated as an untouchable. There were separate utensils for a Muslim. After eating or drinking, they washed them and put them at the place reserved for them. You can well imagine what the Muslims have thought about it. They must have felt a revulsion against the inhumane treatment meted out to them. I personally think this was one of the biggest reasons why Pakistan was created. "

I have never heard anything of this sort from my grandparents. Any one want to shed any lignt on to muslim / sikh realtions in british ruled punjab. Form what i have heard growing up, the general consensus, was that hindu / sikh / muslims lived peacefully side by side from ranjits singh rule till partition.
Actualy sometihng else that i came across was that, when Rani Jindan, the mother of maharaja Duleep singh, sent off the Sikh army to be destroyed by the British in the first anglo-sikh war, a small group of muslims was assembled to protect her at Lahore, in case the army backlashed from learning about her deciets. If this was the case then sikh muslim relations could not have been all "lovey dovey" even in those days.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 17, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   A few points
1. Shah Hussain's meeting with Guru Arjan Dev ji. Shah Hussain: Jewan te Rachna (in Gurmukhi)by Jeet Singh Seetal, Punjabi University Patiala, 1995 "Ram Singh (Sat Sitarey lihkda hey keh Shah Hussain Guru Arjan Dev Ji nooN Lahore tooN Milan Gey. Giani Partap Singh (Gurmeet Lochkar--panna 186) dey khial annosar Guru Sahib di tayyari samiN oos waqat dey sofiaN, darvaishaN te bghataN nooN apna apna klam liawan lai sadda ditta te Shah sahib, baghat shajjoo, Kahna te te Peelo de nal apna Guru Granth Sahib wich draj krawan lei ley kay gai" PP 36 2. No one can draw conclusion from one line of poetry. However, given the limited space, one or a few lines can be mentioned only. Otherwise, all conclusions are reached with careful study of the entire text.


Name: Safir Rammah - June 17, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Zahra: Thanks for taking my rudimentary and imperfect attempts to moderate this forum in a light hearted and positive light. (It is a living tribute to Ghalib’s genius that one can never fail to find a suitable couplet of his poetry for any occasion).

I am always amazed by the high standards of civility and quality of discussions on this forum. Most of the Indian/Pakistani newsgroups and discussion boards have a tendency to degenerate into a circus. All credit goes to the regular contributors of this forum to make it a friendly and pleasant cyber community. I have a high respect for each one of you and hope that my occasional interference and editing attempts will be taken in the same vein.


Name: Saeed Farani - June 17, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Sameer Jee, You misplaced Khwaja Ghulam Farid with Bulhey Shah who was during the British Raj and he wrote against English empire as "apni dhok wasa tey put angrezi thaney". Actually, our sufis always favoured masses but unfortunately, their work and sacred places (Gaddies) were always hijacked by barbars(Nai). JidoN nai hath wich talwar phaR ke suntaaN karn lag pan taaN fer terrorism ubharda hey. Sufis were against these barbers (suntaaN karn wale nayaaN de khilaf san.) Eh saDi illfate ey ke ethay NaiyaaN (Barbars) da raj rehya ey. Ik baNday da putr aya si ohnoo ehnaaN nayaaN (barbars) neyN phahe la dita (he was hanged) tey hun koi hor ohdi tor turn laee tyaar naaeeN. Eh sher horay Guru Gobind Singh da ey: jay tayN ishq karn da chaa sir rakh tali tay, meri gali wich aa. Aj de globally controlled samaj wich kaun aaye ga tali te sir rakh ke?


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 17, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@yahoo.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Sameer: Quite interesting and full of insights post. I will just add a bit to couple of your points. First, regarding the different influences on Punjabi Sufi thought. As far as I been able to gather, most of the major scholars of Punjabi Sufi thought agree that it is unique in the sense that it was influenced by Greek Mysticism, Islamic Sufi tradition and the Indian Bhagti movement. While the influence of Greek Mysticism was marginal, Punjabi Sufism owes a lot to Bhagti thoughts and cannot be fully understood without a good understanding of Bhagti movement.

The influence of a Sindhi Sufi on Mansoor Hilaj (d. 922) is well established. Abu Ali Sindhi’s meetings with Bayazeed Bustami were influential in making Bayazeed Bustami (803-875) and his fellow Sufi’s aware of Sindhi wahdat-ul-wajood ideas.

A lot of research and study of Sufi movement and of Punjabi Sufi movement is available. I am not sure how much of that needs to be reproduced here. For those who may be interested in studying this topic, I will list here some of the important works related to Punjabi:

1. Punjabi Literature by Serebyokov - English

2. Punjabi Sufi Poets by Lajwanti Rama Krishana - English

3. Sufi Mat Te Wikas by Mohan Singh – Punjabi

4. Punjabi Zuban Te Ohda Literature by Banarsi Das Jean - Punjabi

5. Wahda-tul-Wajood Te Punjabi Shairee by Ali Abbas Jalalpuri

As a final note: It will be misleading to assume that we can understand Punjabi Sufi poets by interpreting their individual lines without understanding the overall Sufi thought and the role and place of each poet, who belonged to sometimes different eras of centuries apart. Sameer is absolutely right on this point. It will be misleading to read too much into individual lines of poetry. For example previously it was stated by one learned participant in this discussion that “Bulleh Shah says: Kitay Rad Das ktay Fateh Mohhamad, eho qadeemi shor…Therefore, they negated the status-quo and developed an alternative ideology (not a formal religion) which was acceptable to the followers of competing religions.” This type of scholarship that is based on interpretation of individual lines of poets can be very misleading.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 17, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Sameer ji, jee aaya nu! Kitthe rahe ainee der tusi?


Name: Bali K Deol - June 17, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Zahra what does that mean? Your four lines of rhyme written in I'm guessing Urdu, couldn't figure it out at all.


Name: Sameer - June 17, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I just re-read my comments and found too many typos and omissions. Sorry folks, this happens when you write and watch World-cup US-Mexico soccer match simutaneously besides being very sleepy.


Name: Sameer - June 17, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Manzur: Actually there are several points to be understood regarding sufism. Not everybody is equally fascinated by the spiritual aspects of religions or sufism. However, we hope that all Punjabis should have some degree of respect for a handful of sufis (Baba Farid, Shah Hussain, Sultan Bahu, Bulley Shah and Khawaja Farid) from the aspect of Punjabi poetry.

Most Pakistanis, no matter how liberal or ipen-minded somehow have the difficulty of giving credit to pre-Islamic south Asian thoughts and influence on the various tareeqat techniques and wahdat-al-wujood (oneness with absolute reality or god). The Biddhist philosophy of nothingness of absolute reality according to Mahayana school of thought, Patanjali's Yoga and more importantly non-dualism of Shankara's Vedanta philosophy during ninth and tenth century influenced sufism. Even Mansur Hallaj's anal-haq (I am the truth) is credited to the influence of his teacher who had spent some time in Sindh and came in contact with Vedanta.

Second point I would like to mention deals with the assumption that caste-ridden Punjab somehow ready to accept sufism more than other places. The truth is actiually quite the opposite. Punjab was one of the least caste-ridden, not because of some egaliterian society but there long history of frontier province to invaders as well as intra-tribal warfares made more people to take up arms, instead of usual trend of lower castes watching from the sideline while Kashtriya warriors fought. This made lower castes little more acceptable than Ganges plains and Bengal and provided opportunity to move up on the caste system. The success of proselytizing to Islam in Punjab and Bengal and not in UP and Bihar is much more complex than the peace and love message of sufis or caste-ridden socisties. Even within West Punjab, there were whole villages who did not convert while the next one converted totally. The success in Punjab and Bengal has more to do with the strategic needs of Delhi Sultanate than anything else. The proselyting, most successful by Suharwardiya silsila, took place during 12-15th centuries in order to control out-lying provinces and keeping a lid on any possible upeising. As you rightly pointed out, Suharwardiya were very cooperative and practically in bed with Ghauris, Tughlaqs, Sadats and Lodhis. The modus operandi was to make tribal elders and landed elite in trouble with the authorities of Delhi sulatanate, followed by sufis acting as arbiters and agents of the sultanates, promising to help withdraw the cases against tribal leader and zamindars if they convert. Rest of the population would convert in time because their livelihood was based upon providing services to tribal elders and zamindars. With the help of this method, Makhdoom Shah JahaniaN of suharwardiya school was able to convert more people than anybody else in Punjab in Rachna, along the Ravi river all the way to Muzzaffargarh. This happened during Mihammad Tughlaq time and most of the Khar, Kharrals and wattoos pwe thier conversion to Makhdoom Shah JahaniaN.

Third point is about the message of peace and love. The sufism in Punjab can be divided into 4 phases. Ist phase occured following the invasions of Mahmud Ghaznavi and Sheikh Farid-ud-Din (dara Ganj Bakhsh) came from his darbar at Ghazni. They were strict with Shariat (way of Muhammad, ritualistic and doctrinal). They depicted absolute lotalties with the Islmaic empires of South Asia. They did not make much impact in terms of conversions or anything else. Baba Farid in 12th century was only marginally successful. His poetry was saved due to introdction into Adi Granth, otherwise there was not even a single manuscript in Arabic alphabet was made. His poetry as we know now is translation from gyrmukhi to Arabic alphabet. His influence among Muslims was lost soon after his death. The second phase was the suharwardiya, proselytizing phase out of necessity for Delhi Sultanate. Their forces were almost permanently tied up fighting in central India, the Ganges plains and sometimes in south India. By converting a significant number of people to Islam in Punjab and Bengal they successfully avoided any large scale people rebellioin except for one from Jasrat, who got no support from sufis.

The message of peace and love is always more beneficial to weak, vulnerable and minorities. This was the period when Muslims of Punjab were in minority, they were very vulnerable by virtue of conversion and Delhi coyld not have helped them because their forces were already thibbed out in central India. Wouldn't Palestinians, Chechens, Kosowars, Kashmiris etc, benefit more if their message of peace is acceted by the forces they are pitted against. The next phase was during Mughal period. Now Muslims were in hreat numbers and no longer vulnerable because Mughals could take upon many rebellinos simutaneously at far off corners. Besides during the era of Shah Hussain, Lahore was the capital of India and mighty Akbar was the ruler. Mughals did not need sufis anymore in their scheme of things and Shah Hussain did not need Mughals becaise he was not involved in the conversion business. During Aurangzeb period, another sufi school, Naqshbandia, who were more inclined towards sgariat than tareeqat, made their influence known with the backing of Aurangzeb. However, the fame went to Sultan Bahu for his poetry. Again some coerced conversions by Naqshbandia but others like Sultan Bahu mostly concentrated on previously converted Muslims.

The decline of Mughals ahter Auranzeb and breaking up of empire again created the need for the message of love and peace for Muslims now under Sikh misls or Marathas etc. During this period, Bulley Shah and Khawaja Farid preached sufism's message of love and peace but there is no indication that they did it out of need for Muslims. Some sufis like Waris Shah openly siding with general Public against Abdali attacks.

The last phase came during British Raj and sufis played the same role as Suharwardiya during Delhi Sultanate. They acted as loyal agents of the raj, keeping a lid on any rising up by Punjabis. They did not support the heroic Ghadar movement and did nothing to stop communal rioting during partition.

I have written this piece from memory and apologize in advance for any misplacement of sufis with respect to time frame.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 16, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Punjabi literature, as we know today, was born with the blessing of Chishtiya leader, third in row, Baba Farid. It saw its zenith in the writings of Qadrias, Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah. In between lies Malamtia, Shah Husain. Two points to note:

1. All sufi sects were not very anti-conventions as all anti-conventionalists were not part of sufi schools. In early development of sufi thought in India two major schools, Chishtias and Suharwardias show this distinction. While Suharwardias were very formalistic, requiring tight prerequisites in terms of formal education and discipline, Chishtias were more open and informal. Leadership in Suharwardia was hereditary while in Chishtias, leaders were nominated on merit. Suharwardias had close links with Dehli darbars while Chishtias had constant conflicts with central authorities. The list is long. Niazam-ud-Din Aulia and his disciple, Amir Khusroo, were also Chishtias. Qadria Sufis inherited Chistia tradition. It is noteworthy that Suharwardias were not interested in the development of native language when Chishtias and Qadria were.

2. All sufi schools had certain internal discipline and training but it has to be seen why Chishtia/Qadria had passion for native language and challenged theocracy so bluntly. What was different in their philosophy and social thought (versus the Suharwardias) that was translated into Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah. This is a very important point to explore for our periods. In many ways, we are faced with the similar problems and a research of that era may help us.


Name: Zahra - June 16, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Aur Mae'ree Post Sufha'ae'Hastee Sae Gha'ib Kur Dee Gayee...
Ghaib'Kee Avaaz: ~Kee Mae'rae' Qatul Kae Baa'd Uss Nae Jafaa' Sae Toa'ba
~Ha'ae Uss Zoo'd Pashae'maa'N Kaa' Pashae'maaN Hona'!!!


Name: Leslie Donovan - June 16, 2002
E-mail: psychologyiscool@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   I am looking for volunteers for a project on Punjabi language proficiency and life satisfaction among Sikhs. The study is a brief online questionnaire administered in English and is designed to be valid for people with all levels of Punjabi language proficieny, from those who know none of the language to those who are completely fluent. Please do not be offended that the participant population for this research is restricted to Sikhs, at least for now; I did not mean anything against other groups, it's jsut that for this particular study I want to test my hypotheses within a Sikh population. If you are interested, check it out at http://www.opinionpower.com/Surveys/45607410.html


Name: suman - June 15, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Manzur ji. Just wanted to let you know that I have read your posts on the sufis, have found them interesting and have learnt something from your thoughts. I am not a scholar but my lay thought has always been that the sufis say what the inner core of all religions say. And that inner core is neither practised nor understood by the vast majority of people. Of any religion or on any forum. Dulla Bhatti ji. Knowing so called 'correct' angrezi is nothing to proud of - in fact it is quite an superficial accomplishment. If you are a south asian, all it says about you is that you were in a convent or 'english medium' school. Or that you grew up in the west. People can be most unpleasant in the most correctly spelt english.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 15, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   I dont know when we will be muture enough to tolerate each others view point without placing them under certain group or naming them under certain titles. I think it is a bad taste for which i want to record my disagreement.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 15, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Respected Shuja Bajwa Sahib (or whoever you are): I will be very happy to do that when you and everyone else on this forum is required to post their CV as well as details of their religious beliefs and affiliations. By the way, our discussion on Sufism has come to an amicable satisfactory conclusion with mutual agreement. Do read my previous post. If you like to open another discussion on the good doctor’s newspaper columns, I will be happy to oblige.


Name: Shuja Bajwa - June 15, 2002
E-mail: shujabajwa@hotmail.com
Location: Lahore,      Pakistan
Comments:   Respected Mr. Saleem Asghar
I have read the debate with interest. What is your back ground and affliations? Were you a member sympathizer or campanion of Islami Jamit-i-Talaba or Jamaat-i-Islami? Or any other Sunni, Shia or Ahmdi Jamaat? Give this answer honestly because Lahore is a city where it can be found. You appear to ba remanant of Jamit-i-Tulba. Nothing wrong with that but just be honest. You have been asking this question from Dr. Manzur whose ideas are quite known via his News columns. Just a question. Oh yes. you can correct my English also


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 15, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Manzur: I am glad to note that you no longer support your previous assertion that Sufi’s developed an alternate ideology to negate all religious differences and they personalized God to allow human beings the freedom to develop their own laws. You are right that they were just “anti-ritualistic faith/formalistic religion”. I have pointed the same time and again that they wouldn’t be termed Sufi’s until they were against the supremacy of formalities of religion. They believed that those formalities are means to an end and have no inherent importance in their own. When rituals are given supreme importance, they become suffocating for spiritual development and become a tool for the oppression of human mind and spirit. They devised their own way to achieve the same end - nearness or union with God. That has been the main characteristic of all Sufi thought throughout the history of Sufism. You have clarified that you have never said that these Sufis were not Muslims. Thank you. I hope that after agreeing on this point now, your statement that they “sought broad based consensus among followers of different religions “, only means that while operating within the general guidance of their own religions, they propagated the ideas of human love, understanding and accommodation and rejected all hate and discrimination based on racial and religious differences. They taught us how to live peacefully in a multi-religious society and how to live and let live in peace and harmony. Unlike Baba Nanak, who our Sikh brethren are the one who have every right to interpret his message and mission and we should leave that up to them, Muslim Sufis did not try to develop a “consensus” by preaching a new “consensus based” religion. (Your anecdote about Shah Hussain, although mentioned by a couple of Sikh sources, does not have any historical evidence and doesn’t fit with Shah Hussain’s character and personality. But that is fine. We can leave it as it is). Now that we have come to a “broad-based consensus”, may be we should drop this debate here and move on as a couple of readers of this forum have suggested


Name: DullaBhatti - June 15, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Manzur sahib: Chhajoo said..jo sukh chhajoo de chubaare, oh Balakh na Bukhaare...Guru said...Chhajoo ajjay tere mann choN haumeiN(ego) nai gai..sukh maanan di isha nai gai....similarly, there was a Jatt bhagat Baba Jallan ji, a native of my own village, who besides being a darveish used to compose humorous Punjabi poetry condemning rituals and religious dogma. He also recited some verse in front of Guru ji..which goes like...main jallan jatt jatti jayea...etc...Jallan was rejected also. But according to the story, Guru Arjun said to Baba Jallan that your name will live forever and people will celebrate Masseya at your place as they will at our place(gurdwara Tarn Taaran)....which people believe to this day....as of late biggest Masseya da Mela is at Baba Jallan's smadh after Tarn Taaran in that area.

You guys talking about Muslimness of Bulleh Shah and Shah Hussein reminded me of Baba Jallan...he was considered a Ram bhagat..he was Sandhu jatt but was Hindu like most of his people at that time...His sons did not survive but his brother's(who was his closest companion)family lives on to this day.... When we were kids in 70s and 80's(ok teenagers:-))...there used to be various samaadhs(makbara) where Baba Jallan used to live...his home, his samaadh and other smaadhs of his relatives...a khooh etc...but in last 15 years the place has grown a lot...all of his(brother's) family is Sikh(my guess is they became Sikhs only few generations back while rest of us Sandhus in the village became Sikhs during Sikh Misals era.....6th Guru Hargobind sahib while preaching in the area did not come to our village..Baba Jallan had died only few years ago...Guru Hargobind Sahib went to both villages on each side of our village,both of which have Gurdwaras of Guru Hargobind Sahib ji..tragically one in Pakistan and one in India...Baba Jallan's smaadh in the middle on border..almost in no-man's land...as if it were darveish's wish..(some say saaday pinD wale Guru ji nu Jee AyeaN nai kehan gaye si..namoshi of which some of them feel to this day:-))....after 1947 all Muslims left the village and surroudning villages...most Hindu families have left the villages also in search of greener pastures in cities and like some us have....so now that tract of dozens of villages is purely Sikh..with a family or two of Hindus here and there....That also changed Baba Jallan's religion...he is now Sikh..a proper Sikh..with a big Gurdwara going up..big Langhar and Diwan hall...walled complex...last I heard was the smaller smaadh(except the main house) has been either removed or converted into Gurdwara...that is now the main Gurdwara in our village....it was only 20 years ago, it used to be Babay di samaadh te Babay da talaab and gurdwara was in the village. You know guys...changing demographics can do amazing things to history, culture and myth. With 100% muslim Lahore you can't expect Shah Hussein to remain Madho Lal Hussein.......

lokkaN dian japp-maaliaN, Jallan da japp-maal. saari ummer japeindiyaN, ikk na khutha vaal.

Rammah ji, when I get some time I have a collection of Baba Jallan's poetry somewhere wrapped up safely...may be you can put up few of those also. That collection is very rare:-).

Spellchecker and Grammar checker robots: mitro main jatt boot banda vaan...aweiN koi nukhas na kaDeyO meri angraizee ch.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 15, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   To appreciate the cooperative environment in which Sufi thought took shape in Punjab, I will bring to attention a few interesting things. 1.Baba Nanak Ji, considered to be a Sufi by all scholars, tried to define the concept of ultimate reality or super being in Japuji. He clearly pointed out “what God is not” and what “God is.” 2.A bit unrelated incident but gives us a flavor of that period. Baba Farid’s Shalooks were included in Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Arjin Dev ji invited known Sufis, bhaghats and other darvish poets to see if their poetry can be included in Guru Granth Sahib. According to Gian Singh, Shah Husain, Bhaghat Chajoo, Kahna and Peelo came from Lahore to see Guru Sahib to have their poetry included in Granth sahib. Guru Sahib came out to receive them but did not accept their poetry for Granth Sahib. The reasons for this exclusion are a bit complex but the basic point is that this group was comprised of Hindu and Muslim darvaishs who had a shared view of life and wanted to be part of Guru Granth Sahib. After rejection, Shah Hussain is reported to have said “Bolan di koi ja nahiN.” Dr. Jeet Singh Seetal, a giant in Punjabi researcher, has compared Shah Husian’s verses with Gurbani and has shown the similarities. 3.Siyar-ul Mutakhreen (PP 74) mentions that Guru Tegh Bahadur “united himself to one Adam Hafiz, a Mussulman dervish of the fraternity of Shah Ahmed Serhindy..[Guru] Teg Bahadur levied contributions on Hindus, Hafiz Adam did the same upon Mussulmans.” Sikh historians dispute this episode. However, even if it is a myth or a concocted stery, it shows how the historians of that period looked at the emerging alliances between adherents of various religions in the Punjab. Incidently, I have never said that these Sufis were not Muslims. The only thing I have pointed out that they were anti-ritualistic faith/formalistic religion and sought broad based consensus among followers of different religions


Name: Zahra - June 14, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Shikra: With due respect, I find your posts nothing but XXXXXXXXX. Just wanted to have a reality check conducted here!
It has been repeatedly mentioned here that no one is bound to read the other person. Why do not you save yourself from the Kusht?

Everyone has a right to contradict and dissect a concept that they disagree with. Some of us due to our upbringing hold certain concepts very dear to us regardless of which generation and times we are living in. Others have kept those beliefs and thoughts with them and moved on. So, there will be contradictions, dissections and disagreements...it's part of any discussion. If it's hard for you to digest this concept then please stay out of it. No need to stress yourself. I think a year or so back, I wrote that there is no hard and fast rule that people from the same region will have the same mindset, I still standby my assertion. Thanks.


Name: Concerned Punjabi - June 14, 2002
E-mail: cp@yahoo.com
Location: Islamabad,      Pakistan
Comments:   Shikra sahib: You are right. I am one of people who read this forum. Mostly it is interesting and informative. It is good that so many of you care about Punjabi. The discussion on Sufi’s has become inappropriate. Saleem sahib, your style is not good. You need to calm down. Manzur sahib, you may be right but there is no need to teach your peculiar understanding of Sufis here. People can get offended. We do not need debate if our Sufi’s were muslims or not. Leave them in peace. I think you people should end this tasteless debate on Sufism and move on. I thought debate on religious issues was not allowed here but it is going on.


Name: shikra - June 14, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Saleem/Zahra...........I have been reading these posts for some time now and I am beginning to feel dumbfounded by some of the useless XXXXXXXXX exchanged on these pages (excuse the misspelling if any because I have never had the cause to use such harsh words). Is it too much to ask that we keep our comments simple rather than trying to be clever and writing crap that no one can understand. The sufi debate is going way out of context and is getting to be a bit of a bore, so just try to chill out and keep it simple, if we were all as eduacated and enlightened as we seem to think we are then we would'nt have the time to join in with the lengthy discussions that some of us are comming up with so lighten up and keep this page simple and understandable. Gustakhi mauf


Name: Bali K Deol - June 14, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Thanks Bagga for sharing that article...I suggest it to all. Its amazing isn't it how much forgiveness people have inside them.


Name: Zahra - June 14, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Saleem Asghar: As you are a new comer on this board, do you mind introducing yourself?


Name: Zahra - June 14, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Saleem: Well, I am under the weather today and have started feeling dizzy after reading your dastan'ae'ameer hamza :) I will come back with my version after I clarify a point. The word Ru'vis'h implied "please mend your ways." I realized previously you had some concerns with my encyclopedic vocabulary, so I just wanted to do the above Kar'ae'Khair and explain the point :)
I have ba'nafsae'nafees attended Dr. Ejaz's explanation on a poet who means a lot to me, therefore I have respect for him. Secondly, I have read and heard his views on media many times and I sincerely respect his passion for his culture and homeland. Thirdly, he is much senior to me and I respect that as well.

Lastly, I have not followed his perspective on Sufism thoroughly therefore I cannot dissect the perspective. By penning the above three reasons for respect, I do not mean to say that any view that I disagree with, will be acceptable. But arguing a point is one thing, belittling a point is another. You, in your own stride, has been following the latter route for some unknown reason. That's it. Your well intended reasonings were taken in the same stride. Rest asuured! :)

Lastly, I have my own style of writing and I have been writing for sometime now.They were always my ramblings than a focused article kind of stuff. I posted the SAWF Link because I wrote something last week in a very agitated mood as I was reading the newspapers. After jotting my half cooked thoughts, I clicked submit to Sawf and another newspaper. To my surprise this Monday they posted my ramblings and I was quite excited and a little embarrased as I sounded like a kid than an analytical thinker or a poised person. Anyway, I posted the link not to brag my perspectives as there was nothing to brag in that. I just posted it because this was the first time, I submitted my thoughts formally and they were accepted. That's it. :)


Name: bagga - June 14, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Here s an iteresting link....
http://www.uoregon.edu/~caps/ocas/partition/archive/birbahadur.php#RID


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 14, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Zahra: I had no such intentions. My previous postings had some tinckurs (for good reasons) but not this one – at least that was my intention. I have read my post again to identify what could now be termed as a tinkcur by you. The two references to you are as following:

1."Manzur,Zahra and Rammah, absolutely no sarcasm intended..." This was to make sure no one objects to what followed as a tinckur since I was seriously trying to understand Manzur's complicated thoughts.

2. " Since Zahra has so much respect for you, may be she can articulate it better." Again, I thought, and do correct me if I am wrong, that your respect for Manzur is based on a good understanding and respect of his ideology and intellect and may be you can help explain his otherwise difficult to understand (to put it mildly) thought process, since you write so well. It was a compliment and absolutely no tinckur was intended. In fact, I had written the whole post in a serious way. If you see any other tinckur in there do let me know. To make myself clear, I find the self-serving and utilitarian analysis of Punjabi Sufi's by this group of Lahori Marxists an unacceptable tinckur on our Punjabi Sufis who deserve lot more respect then some of us on this forum may have for each other. Finally, if you still feel that I have tinckured you in any which way, please accept my apologies.

Prediction: One day, while trying to find the origin of the wide usage of “tinckur” in English language, the future scholars of English will trace it back to this forum and ultimately to your writings. (This is definitely a compliment, not a tinckur).


Name: Zahra - June 14, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Saleem: Please read my "sweetly" written post again. It said "no tinkcurs" please. If you will continue with your "Ru'vis'h" I will not exchange my views.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 14, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Friends: This may end up to be a long post. I will will try to be as brief as possible to reply to Manzur’s posting.

First, let me give some background. As we all knoe,Sufism is around since the inception of formal religions. It has been studied and analyzed for many centuries. No doubt that it always had some local color too, but he main tenets of Sufism have generally remained the same across centuries and across religions. Sufis were not always poets, although a few. It will be wrong to understand Sufism only through the writings of those who had the gift of writing poetry. There is a lot of published material, even of internet, on the two main Muslim Sufi schools in India, Chishtia and Qadria, so no need to go into details here. There were also certain variations of the main schools of thoughts. A lot of literature is also available on Bhagti movement. Punjabis are generally well aware of Sufis love for God and human beings, their accommodation of people form all faiths, their fight against theocracy and discrimination/differentiation based n race, color, creed, economic background and against intra-religion conflicts. Of course, they were not part of a political movement, they did all that because that is what Sufi’s do and have done throughout the history of Sufism in a broader sense. Ultimately, their religious beliefs are not as important as their humanity. Punjabis love their Sufis for that reason and generally don’t feel the need worry too much about their religious beliefs. Their message of love and tolerance in a land full of bigots who incite hate is what makes them attractive.

On the other hand, certain followers of Marxism from Lahore in the early 60’s and 70’s found it convenient to interpret Punjabi Sufi’s in a certain way to advance their ideology and agenda. I have no problem with that if the proponent of such interpretation will come out openly and say that I believe in Marx/Lenin philosophy and after studying Punjabi Sufis in that light I have come to these conclusions. At least they are honestly telling us where they are coming from. Some of them take a different route, without telling us that their analysis is based on Communist philosophy, they try to present themselves as enlightened intellectuals while hiding their real credentials. I have discussed Punjab Sufi’s with both the open and honest, as well as, hidden Marxists of Lahore and am fully aware of their techniques. I am, of course, dead against their efforts to hijack Punjabi Sufis for their own purpose.

Let me just list what Manzur has said ( and that I have heard from many others that belong to the same school of thought over the years). I will add brief notes just for the purpose of further discussion:

1. “In general, the Sufi movement (and Bhagti movement in general) had specific social meanings in cast ridden Indian and Punjabi society. They considered Hindu-Muslim theocracy as an accomplice of an unjust degenerating society.”

True. Most Sufi’s, Punjabis or not, are against religious theocracy and social discrimination. What I believe Manzur is really implying is that Punjabi Sufi movement, in fact the whole Sufi movement and all religions are born out of certain socio/economic conditions during certain stages of history. There is no divine guidance behind them. At least that is what a Marxist believes. I have no problem when a person honestly identifies himself as a Marxist and then makes such statements. At least then we know where is he coming from and can better understand his/her point of view and respond accordingly in the larger context.

2. “They also believed that religious differentiations have divided the masses unnecessarily. Bulleh Shah says: Ktay Rad Das ktay Fateh Mohhamad, eho qadeemi shoor…Therefore, they negated the status-quo and developed an alternative ideology (not a formal religion) which was acceptable to the followers of competing religions.”

I am sorry, but this is such a confused, contradictory statement that may be I should just leave it alone.

3. “The God or super-being appeared as a lover-beloved Ranjha and Shooh. Now if God is personalized and does not enforce set rules then human beings can devise the social laws through consensus among themselves. Absence of set path opens the door for consensus building between people of different faiths for their common good. Such an ideological stance implies the separation of state and religion: human beings are emancipated to innovate social rules for their ‘worldly’ life.”

Manzur,Zahra and Rammah, absolutely no sarcasm intended, but let me seriously try to understand Manzur’s theory in lay man language. I think he is saying that (1) Punjabi Sufi’s were against Hindu/Muslim theocracy (2) They realized that the whole problem is the concept of God and His lawmaking powers (3) They decided to personalized God as Ranjaa and Shooh (4) It freed both Hindus and Muslims from the bonds of their religious laws. (5) God and his lawmaking powers were negated and were transferred to men who were then free to devise their own laws without any reference to God and it solved all the problems. Trust me Manzur, I have heard the same theory, which appears so mambo/jumbo here, much elegantly articulated by others. I will leave it for others to comment on it. Since Zahra has so much respect for you, may be she can articulate it better. 4. “ No wonder that people of different religions love them dearly despite the efforts to Islamize them.”

This will also help answer Imran’s questions. I agree that most of Punjabi Muslims who don’t have the same insights that Manzur has believe that majority of Muslim Punjabi Sufi’s never formally rejected Islam as their religion and they have "Islamize them". But to further clarify this, I will request Manzur to please explain which one of the following were NOT Muslims: (1) Baba Farid (2) Shah Hussain (3) Bulleh Shah (4) Waris Shah (5)Sultan Bahu (6) Mian Muhamamd (6) Khawaja Farid. I will appreciate a simple, straight and honest answer.


Name: Shikra - June 14, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali- Like yourself I too have always assumed that 'Jeh rab milda.......' was written by Baba Bhulleh Shah and I disagree with the comment by Manzur that the confusion was caused by a few folk singers. I have heard it recited by many reputable singers and they have always credited it to Baba Bhulleh Shah. It maybe written by Sultan Bahu but it would be interesting to find out why and where the confusion is comming from.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 14, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Saleem Saheb,

I realise futility of the debate. What I am trying to say is that in order for one to claim to be a Muslim, they must not violate the basic tenets of Islam at the minimum. Otherwise, it perpetuates hostility between deviants and those who consider themselves strict adherents and eventually leads to the rise of violent reform movements.

If a certain ideology doesn't fit in the schemes of someone, then they should have courage to simply move on regardless of the difficulty in shedding one's long held beliefs rather corrupting the religion from within. If one was born into a Muslim family, it doesn't mean that they have to die as a Muslim. I fully agree with Dr. Ejaz, there is no need to Islamicize "Sufis". Some of them had their own views of God which do not coincide with Islam.

Regards


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 14, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sorry folks. I ended up posting the message twice because of a genuine misunderstanding about submitting the message. Back to the Sufi movement: In general, the Sufi movement (and Bhagti movement in general) had specific social meanings in cast ridden Indian and Punjabi society. They considered Hindu-Muslim theocracy as an accomplice of an unjust degenerating society. They also believed that religious differentiations have divided the masses unnecessarily. Bulleh Shah says: Ktay Rad Das ktay Fateh Mohhamad, eho qadeemi shoor…Therefore, they negated the status-quo and developed an alternative ideology (not a formal religion) which was acceptable to the followers of competing religions. Reverence for Punjabi Sufi poets cut across the religious lines. This was their real success. Implications of some of their negations (cast, color, creed and nationhood) are obvious. However, the implications of their negation of Hindu-Muslim theocracy and their concept of God are not self-evident. As said earlier, negating the Pandat-Mullah concept of settled path (sharait in Muslim case) , they embraced the concept of a personalized approach to emancipation. The God or super-being appeared as a lover-beloved Ranjha and Shooh. Now, if such a personalized (and indigenized) relationship with God is accepted and Shariat imposing theocracy is rejected, the implications are of enormous significance. For example, if God is personalized and does not enforce set rules then human beings can devise the social laws through consensus among themselves. Absence of set path opens the door for consensus building between people of different faiths for their common good. Such an ideological stance implies the separation of state and religion: human beings are emancipated to innovate social rules for their ‘worldly’ life. Qadria (a sufi sect) alliance with Sikh gurus, Dara Shakooh and Hindu Bhaghts was an example of a consensus building among leaders of different religions. Therefore, along with Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and Christians have an, understandable, equal claim on them. No wonder that people of different religions love them dearly despite the efforts to Islamize them.


Name: zia zaidi - June 13, 2002
E-mail: zeed_muralist@hotmail.com
Location: isd,      pakistann
Comments:   SADAY WADDAY CHWDAEREE JEE.....!Yar koi slamabad di we khabar rakh lia karo..Aithay har koee sarkari afsar tay naeen twadey jaiy we te rehandey nay.....! meri koee sunda ee nain zia zaidi isd pak


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 13, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   MitraaN layee.........

LaRday NaiN Mulk Tay QoumaaN
JinaaN Ess Layee RakhiaaN FoujaaN
Maskeen Kisay Kee LaRna
JinouN BaiThiaN PhhaR Kay SouchaaN

Aay JindRee Aay Din Chaar
Thuk Ghusaa Chhad Takrar

Takk Kinnay Sajan Piyaray
Jind Maout Day Agay Harray
NaeeN Sadaa Kesay NaiN Rahna
Befaiz NaiN Cheekh ChahRay

NaaN Hoo NaaN Kar Bayzar
Thuk Ghusaa Chhad Takrar

Tak Duniyaa Day Wich Loki
Jind LaR LaR Karday Phokki
Fair Chhad Jaanday Sab Aithay
Kee Manjhi PeRee Chaowki

Ralmil Kay Waqat Guzar
Thuk Ghusaa Chhad Takrar

NaaN Waqt Kissay Partounaa
NaaN MuR Wailay NaiN Aownaa
Aay Rabb Teree Wass Keetaa
TouN KeewaiN Dung Tapawnaa

Naa Wailay NouN Dhadhkar
Thuk Ghusaa Chhad Takrar


Name: Mahmud Fahim - June 13, 2002
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   To understand the origin of the word sufi or Sufism, I want to share these probable definitions with the folks on the forum. Some people assert it to be from ‘Soof’ (from the Arabic for wool, so named because of the enthusiasm of the early ‘Sufiya’ in wearing woolen fabrics as a sign to their total abstinence from mundane desires). This is because of the Sufi habit of wearing woolen coats, a designation of their initiation into the Sufi order. The early Sufi orders considered the wearing of this coat as an imitation of Isa bin Maryam (Jesus). While others derive it from ‘Safaa’ (Arabic for purity). Some others see it from ‘Sufw’ (the Arabic for uniqueness). Some go to the extent that they trace its origins back to the ancient Greek word ‘Sufia’ which means wisdom.


Name: Zahra - June 13, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dullah Bhatti: You must read yesterday's Wall Street Journal's International Section. There is a review on Indarjeet Singh - A Sikh Nationalist. This guy was also the president of the youth group in Congress. Please do care to read his views on the ongoing fiasco.


Name: Zahra - June 13, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   What is this going on?

Dr. Ejaz: I am 100% sure that your questions were not real questions. By that I meant, you asked them to involve more participants in a lively and informative discussion, changing the naqsha of this forum. I can be wrong, but somehow deep down inside I know I am not :)

Saleem Asghar: Now, you need to cool down a little bit. OK! No one, including me, writes here to belittle anyone. Yes, at times we may give different impressions. In your case, I think on one end you are right, whereas on the other one you are wrong. Also, respect is a very relative term. Just like Sajid felt comfortable saying "Tae Behnaan Vee" I feel comfortable addresing Dr. Ejaz as such. I explained my stance on Sajid's post, but had some grammatical errors in my post so had to ask the moderator to remove it. I planned on reposting my post, but could not due to lack of time. Now, please refrain from "tinkchur-filled" way of addressing and focus on the topic of discussion. Also, my previous compliment to you was deliberately kept vague. In case, there was any misunderstanding!


Name: Savak - June 13, 2002
E-mail: savvak@hotmail.com
Comments:   hi again.
I hope u all must've read the links which i posted earlier.

here's another link which u might find interesting.although its not directly related to punjabi but theres something we can learn from it. its rather similar to the situation of punjabis & other oppressed people.

please check out the link and post ur comments.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/06/13/int16.htm

C YA.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 13, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   corrections:

koi nahi ghamkhaar asaada
aakhaN [b]kiss[/b] de naal.
shauq rang apnay Rabb [b]siyoN[/b] kahiye,


Name: DullaBhatti - June 13, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   corrections:

koi nahi ghamkhaar asaada
aakhaN [b]kiss[/b] de naal.
shauq rang apnay Rabb [b]siyoN[/b] kahiye,


Name: DullaBhatti - June 13, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   saare mahzabaN de naam te koi na koi jang hui ay itihaas wich...mera khiyal ikk hunn Sufian de naaN te vi hoyegi.:-)

Sometime back someone mentioned about Bahadur Shah Zafar writing some Punjabi poems. I ound these few lines attributed to Bahadur Shah in a book(Punjab, Punjabi, Punjabiat - Prof. Pritam Singh).

aglay haal nu taiN ki puchhda,
dekh, eh abb jo haal.
khaaq vi hunn taaN lagdi na,
apnay pairaN naal!

one in ghulabi punjabi:

mainDa matt hai nehoN ossay da,
jiss da mainDa nehoN.
mullah paandha je koi puchhay,
uss nu aakhaN eho,
kuffar se kiya kaam mujh ko
kiya garaz islam se?
dekh ke suni saij piya bin,
bhar bhar aunday nain,
kuchh matt poochho loga,mainu
kiyoN katt'di na rainn?
rotay rotay subha ho jaati hai mujh ko shaam se.
-------
koi nahi ghamkhaar asaada
aakhaN kidd de naal.
shauq rang apnay Rabb sitoN kahiye,
jo hai apna haal.
---
soch soch ke mann mein apnay
na-haq murakh ronda,
hona tha, so ho hi chukka,
abb ronay se kiya honda?


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 13, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Manzur: Good. You passed the test. It means you are reading my posts. You don't have to say it twice. On the other hand, if saying it twice is not enough, you are free to post your discovery as many times as you like - subject to approval from Mr. Rammah. By the way, public is holding its breath, waiting for you to educate them further on Sufi poetry. I am still stunned by some of your outstanding discoveries. Like "Sufi is a misnomer and we use it for lack of a better word describing anti-conventionalist thinkers." So, any anti-conventionalist thinker, whether looking for a union with God or not or believing in wahdat-ul-wajood or not, is defined as a Sufi. May be according to your elite "we" the term wahdat-ul-wajood is another misnomer and has nothing to do with God or a Supreme Being. Or may be the whole Sufi concept has nothing to do with spirituality and is nothing more than a predictable intellectual reaction to certain socio-economic conditions at a certain time in history that can be easily explained if one has the right tools. Any way, keep on. This forum badly needs to be educated in the right path that after the fall of Berlin Wall almost everyone in the world has so foolishly abandoned.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 13, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Masjid dhaa de mandar dhaa de, dhaa de jo kujh dhainda’ Par baNdiaN da dil naN dhawiN rab dilaN vich rahNda This is Mian Mohammad Bakhsh's line (in saif-ul-Malook) and not of Bulleh Shah.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 13, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Masjid dhaa de mandar dhaa de, dhaa de jo kujh dhainda Par bandiaN da dil naN dhanwiN, rab dilaN vich rahNda This is Mian Mohammad Bakhsh's line (in Saif-ul-Malook) and not of Bulleh Shah.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 13, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Rammah Jee: I have noted your warning. My suggestion is that this is an open forum and we should pay more attention to what is being said than who is saying it and what is his/her resume. Let us not make it a mutual admiration or even one-sideded admiration club. Thanks for posting Hassan Gardezi’s article. In Punjabi Sufi poetry, the religious aspects are less important and relevant than the overall message of love, tolerance, personal choice, liberty and unity. They didn’t write poetry in intellectual isolation. Their popularity and acceptance shows that they were in tune with the thinking of common people. They reflect the attitudes that were the ideal of Punjabi's. It doesn’t matter whether they were Muslim, Hindu or Sikh (or early manifestations of communism as some will make us believe), they were the spokespersons of all Punjabis. As Hassan Gardezi has noted, if we listen more to them then religious fundamentalist and bigots (who will consider it their religious duty to hang Shah Hussain and Bulleh Shah for blasphemy if they were alive today), we can learn to live in peace and harmony instead of aiming nuclear bombs at each other. Baba Farid, Baba Nanak and all other Punjabi Sufi poets are our real heritage. It is a shame that instead of relying on their time-tested wisdom, we are always eager to import and impose foreign-made and ready-made ideologies to solve our problems


Name: Javed Zaki - June 13, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sajno! The debate on 'Sufism' has become polemical, even to the extent of 'character assassination'. We need to keep a certain level of social decency and civility. Due to this odd behavior, some people (including myself) who otherwise would be highly enticed to participate in this debate feel reluctant. So, I have decided to confine myself in posting one of my own 'Kaafi' in this context.

SaanooN alf di ramz disaa miaN
Phir agla sabaq paRhaa miaN

PaRh paRh ilm KitabaaN bhulle
Alf di chhub da bhet na khhulle
PaRhya likhya phhookaaN chulle
Je dil vich oho bhaa miaN
...SaanooN alf di ramaz disaa miaN

Sharaa sheriyat sao sao jheRe
Jis nooN sik e oho seRhe
Saadi mushkil koan nibeRe
Kaaie ishq da waaz sonaa miaN
...SanooN alf di ramaz disaa miaN

Alf da taana baana sab e
Alf ee baNda, alf ee Rub e
Wahdat da eh sohna dhab e
Es nuqte tooN ghuNd chaa miaN
...SanooN alf di ramaz disaa miaN

Har shaiy har jaa oss di bood e
La-mojood ich vi moajood e
Oss bin kujh hona mafqood e
Te oss da hoon sadaa miaN
...SanooN alf di ramaz disaa miaN
...Pher agla sabaq paRhaa miaN


Name: Safir Rammah - June 12, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Friends: I have just posted an excellent article by Hassan N.Gardezi on APNA web page. I find it a must read for anyone interested in Punjabi Sufi poets, even though I have some reservations about Hassan sahib’s Saraiki/Punjabi differentiation:

Sufi Mysticism of the Indus Valley - Hassan N. Gardezi

Mr. Saleem Asghar: We don’t want to discourage you from writing on this forum but will appreciate if in future you could stay away from any personal remarks about other participants of this forum - doctors and all.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 12, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Imran: Thanks for the honor. I only get ticked off when I see our brethren using their hard or easy earned doctorate similar to 'Khan Bahadur' or other titles that were conferred by British on their most loyal subjects, who then proudly made them a permanent part of their names and expected (demanded) that everyone should address them as Khan Bahadur Sahib, or in this case, Doctor sahib. Their friends and neighbors and others generally obliged, as many on this board do. Among thousands of journalists who have Ph.D.’s, you will find only a few who have the poor taste of insisting on listing their educational degree with their names. As I have stated before, if used properly, it is only appropriate in academic and professional settings. That is all.

Now my friend, coming back to the subject of Sufi's, if you believe that anyone who diverges from the set path of any religion cannot claim a membership in that religion, then all Sufi's are doomed. They believed in spiritual union with God or eternal truth, or ultimate reality, not through knowledge or prescribed sharia, but through love alone. So, frankly, you should declare all of them Kafir's or pakka Kafirs. By the way, it wasn’t as Manzur has incorrectly interpreted Bulleh Shah’s line “Ilmun bas kareen o yaar” that they didn’t like to participate in scholastic debates. They did. Most of their poetry was such a debate. They didn’t believe that just by acquiring a lot of knowledge of religion, its tradition and law, etc., and by becoming a Qazi or a Mullah (or a doctor) one can attain nearness to God . As Bahu has said:

Seh hazar kitaaban paRhyan, zalim nafas na marda hoo Bajh faqeeran kisse na maarya, Bahu chor andar da hoo

Yes, they were dead against any religious fundamentalism. Their message was of tolerance and of love for all human beings. They had no pretensions. That is why Punjabi Sufis chose to write their poetry in common man’s language Punjabi, instead of Persian. Their hearts and doors were open for people belonging to all religions. They were and will always be a unifying force in Punjab. They belong to every Punjabi. Supremacy of any religious institution was unacceptable to them. Some were more blunt then others – none more than Bulleh Shah – who was a true revolutionary of his time and perhaps the biggest Kafir of them all. I can understand the temptation of our leftists to employ them in the service of Marx and Lenin, and make Bulleh Shah’s ‘Masjid dhaa de mandar dhaa de, dhaa de jo kujh dhainda’ (without carefully reading the next line) as an anti-religion slogan and further extend it to make it an anti-spirituality philosophy. Any way, it is a long debate and I am not sure if this forum is the right place for it.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Saleem

,

Thanks for conferring the highest academic honor on me! I have returned the favor and hope that we are even now.:-) I know that I will be dubbed "fundamentalist" and what not for saying this. But, is not true that Islam (the formal religion) has clearly laid down its tenets both in principles (Quran) and practices (Sunnah)? I believe, Islam has outlined the path (in no ambigious terms) to realise nearness to God through "Haqooq Allah" and "Haqooq-ul-Ibaad"?

Now, how can a Muslim "Sufi" or otherwise who diverges from the prescribed path claim adherence to Islam? I can understand "Sufis" antagonistic attitude towards prevailing social conditions and clergy of their times. But, once they set out to devise their own paths to achieve "nearness" to God, then how can you or Cyprian Rice maintain that they didn't set out to found their own religion?

Regards


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 12, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ZJ: thanks for encouraging note. best regards


Name: bagga - June 12, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   From my limited, ( very limited =) ), knowledge on sufism, most writings seem to go along an agnostic view of god, which is why i asked the question in the first place. They seem to have a disbelif in all forms of religion, and are along socialist lines.
On another note, things are getting a little too touchy on the topic. Saleem ji, there is no need to point out silly spelling mistakes and i would argue "Islamic Sufi’s in India played a big role in spreading Islam", but lets leave religion out of this board.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 12, 2002
E-mail: sleem_asghar25@yahoo.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Bali: Those are Bahu's lines. The mix-up with Bulleh Shah is created by a couple of folk singers.

Manzur: You want to limit the discussion to only Sufi poets and even among them only to Sufi Punjabi Poets. Very few Sufis wrote poetry, and out of them about half a dozen wrote their poetry in Punjabi. Among them, Sultan Bahu was the most learned and wrote a large number of books on Sufism. Why would one just limit the understanding of Sultan Bahu as a Sufi (not just as a poet) to his poetry alone when he explained in detail in his books his views about God, religion, man’s relationship to God, the best way to achieve it, etc., in his books? The original question that came from Bagga jee was simply if Sufi’s believed in God. Instead of providing a simple answer, you have tried to express the typical Punjabi left interpretation of Sufi thoughts. You can say whatever you want to say (like you studied Iqbal – congratulations – probably didn’t like him because it is difficult to interpret him as a socialist) but unless it is relevant to the question you are trying to answer, it will only amount to your desire to impress others with your knowledge. I can assure you that many on this board can fill pages if the purpose is just to impress others with what they have learned. So let us focus on the question. Trying to understand Sufism only and only through the text of a few Punjabi Sufi poets, in the name of your interest in Punjabi, is not making sense. Were they part of a larger Sufi movement? If they were, we must try to understand the tenets of those larger Sufi movements. For example, if Shah Hussain belonged to Malamtiya school of thought, then we must understand what Malamtiya way of thinking was all about and in that broader context how it reflects in Shah Hussain’s poetry. Refusing to look at the larger context may be self-serving since it will allow maximum latitude in interpreting Shah Hussain’s poetry from a leftist perspective, but it will not lead us to a correct understanding of Shah Hussain. I guess that is why you don’t want to do that. Because that can lead to conclusions that may not fit a particular leftist ideology. You would rather take a few out of context lines from Sufi poetry and try to build a castle out of that. If that is how you studied Iqbal, it is good for Iqbal that you have lost interest in him.

Look at the whole history of Sufism in Islam. The only conclusion that we can draw is that all Islamic Sufi’s wholeheartedly believed in Islam, in God, in Quran, etc. – of course in their particular way. In fact, Hadrat Ali is considered the first Sufi. Their basic ideology was wahdat-al-wajood that originally came from the Christian monks and Sufis and a little later, included Iranian thoughts under the influence of Maulana Rumi. Anyway, no point in going into these details. You already probably know that.

It is interesting how you tried to rely through your peculiar twist of Hegel/Marx’s dialectics to assert that Sufi’s were the anti-thesis of the prevailing and dominating metaphysical. You said “As a matter of fact during a period when society is ruled by one type of metaphysical ideolgy, its competing (or negating) ideolgy will be metaphysical though progressive.” (The correct spellings by the way are ideology). Progressive in the sense of being liberating from formulas, practices, dogma – yes. But their philosophy could not be opposite to religion just because they were against the formalities in religion. After all , they had the same aim that was claimed by the formal religion. The only difference was the path they took to reach their ultimate goal. So blind application of dialectics can’t take us too far. The matter of fact, contrary to what you have claimed is this that, in all Islamic lands, over the last more than 1400 years, no anti-religion movement has made any major inroads. All socialist movements in Islamic countries failed. Even if Turkey’s government is not Islamic, Islam is fully practiced all over Turkey. Sufism in a sense was never a movement. It was too individualistic and did not involved society at large. Totally opposite to what you are trying to imply, Islamic Sufi’s in India played a big role in spreading Islam. Again, you can say what you like to say, it will be impossible to divorce Sufism from religion and God.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 12, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Strange, everytime I have come across that verse its with Baba Bulleh Shah's name...even as far as hearing...Oh bullehya rabb ohna milda neetan jinna diyan sachiyaaN...I guess more research required, I'm not convinced. A while ago someone tried to convince me Bulleh Shah and Sultan Bahu were one and the same...Can anyone confirm or throw light on this in either direction..the author of the verse I mean...


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 12, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Ref: Doel Kalam Bahu published by Syed Ajmal Memorial Society Lahore, 1996 (edited Mohammad Sharif Sabir) It is present on APNA's homepage. See Stanza 65. Sabir's edited text is slightly different. Jay rab milda moon manian, milda bhaidaN sassiaN hoo Rab aonaN nooN milda Bahu, naytaN jinhaN diaN achyaN hoo


Name: Bali K Deol - June 12, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dr Manzur: I'm pretty sure that its not Sultan Bahu you have quoted as in fact Bulleh Shah, I would just like to clarify, Anyone????.......since I have quoted those lines too on my show but as Bulleh Shah's...

The lines in question: Jay rab milda nahatiaN dhotiaN, rab milda dadhwan mushian nooN Jey rab milda wal wadahian, rab milda bhidaN sassiaN noon Jey rab milda jatiaN satian, rab milda dhagian khasiaN noon' (Sultan Bahu)???? Can someone confirm it is indeed Bulleh Shah!

Aside I don't think Manzur Ejaz used Dr in his post, if others did to refer to him, let that not be taken up with him(Although its perogative to use whatever title he so wishes). I am not part of the circus goings on that seem to be taking over, so no need to include my name in the list of Dr's!!

Is there some form of hormonal balance taking over?? What gives with the sarcasm folks?? Cut it out!


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 12, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Point 7. They refused to participate in scholistic debating going on between religious pandats: thats what was meant by Ilmoon bas krain o yar. Therefore, following their tradition, I am not going to indulge in proving others wrong. I have written the way I explored them through their texts. Having taught Philosophy and specifically Iqbal for a few years, I know the limitations of academic debating. Been there, done that. I still think that the path to affirmation goes through negation. It does not mean that it stops at that and I did not say that, did not mean that. Further, negation of "FORMAL RELIGION" does not mean negation of super being etc As a matter of fact during a period when society is ruled by one type of metaphysical ideolgy, its competing (or negating) ideolgy will be metaphysical though progressive. Therefore, the overal system of Sufi (Sufi is a misnomer and we use it for lack of a better word describing anti-conventionalist thinkers)thought was still metaphysical. But it is sure that their system was meant to reform the social system and was not evolved as abstractions. Thats why the process of negation is important for them. For that, I listed a few points to share with you. I had hoped you would do further explorations. Sufis were not a homogenious group. On the contrary, their two majopr schools in India (Chishtia and Suharwardia) had distinct, sometimes contradictory characteristics. That we will discuss at a later time. My main interest would be mainly in Sufis (thinkers) who created Punjabi and wrote in mother tongue. I would love to share discussion if it is within Punjabi textual format. Re: Fahim, I am still going through Laa in my points and have not reached Ill-lillah. Re:B. Doel, . In point 5 I have quoted Sultan Bahu and not Bulleh Shah. Historical Note: Mazdoor Kisan Party was the major left wing political party in early 70s. It has been the only political party of Pakistan that adopted Punjabi as its party laguage in Punjab. Most of the serious lot of Punjabi activist have had their allegence with the party at one point or the other. Its leader Major Ishaque Mohammad wrote three excellent plays in Punjabi. Intrestingly enough, Punjabi classics (or Sufi poetry) was always revered by leftists and not by religious/conservative parties. For example, Jamaat-i-Islami or Jamit-i-Ulamia Islam never showed any interest in Punjabi classics to say the least.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 12, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:  
:) aik se bhalay do, do se bhalay chaar. we are waiting for other two :) happy posting


Name: Zahra - June 12, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Saleem Asghar: Unbelievable!!!You are an excellent critic :)


Name: Sampooran Singh - June 12, 2002
E-mail: sampooran@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.sikhvideos.org
Location: Chandigarh, Punjab     INDIA
Comments:   Here is the Link:
Click Here


Name: Sampooran Singh - June 12, 2002
E-mail: sampooran@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.sikhvideos.org
Location: Chandigarh, Punjab     INDIA
Comments:   A Great way to celebrate Shaheedi Divas of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji (falling on June 14).

This really is a Great eCard I've ever seen:
http://www.srigurugranthsahib.org/cards/pickup/3PoQuaPngk.htm

I received it from a friend of mine. The words are most touching. I repeat them here:

Guru Arjan is the Supreme Divine Donor.
He incarnated out of love for us.
He burnt Himself on the burning hot plate out of love for the burning world.
He gave Himself away unto us.
It was not an half hearted donation.
He gave Himself away and wholly to us.
Let us not be half hearted in our acknowledgement and devotion to our Beloved Sat Guru.

Guru Arjan was burning in fire for the sake of the burning world.
Guru Nanak, the Fifth sat on fire because the world was on fire.

It would be great if you all also send them to friends etc.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 12, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Dear Dr. Farani Sahib! The discussion on Sufism was started by Dr. Bagga Sahib and Dr. Sajid Sahib. Dr. Manzur Sahib jumped in to express his ex-commi views. Dr. Fahim Sahib and I (Dr. Saleem Asghar Sahib, if that is what you prefer) took care of that and even after Dr. Zahra Sahiba's probing, Dr. Manzur Sahib has wisely remained quite. Now let us see if he decides to speak again after your's, Dr. Imran Sahib's and Dr. Bali Sahib's postings. My guess is that Dr. Manzur Sahib is working on a lengthy , scholarly lecture to impress us all. I am with you to solute all claiments for the titles of Dr.'s and Sahib's. Let us continue the good practice of inflating the already inflated egos even more.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 12, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dr Manzur: Point 5 you have made, and you quote a few lines as Sultan Bahu, was it not Baba Bulleh Shah who wrote those?


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Manzur,

You have rightly portrayed "Sufis" as a confused lot! I believe, they were sorts of punks, if you will, who rebelled against theocracy's strangle hold on religion.

I could never figure out why all the saints and prophets were men of no consequence before rising to prominence on the back of revelation. Was there ever a man of secular authority (kings, noble, etc.) who laid claim on divine revelation?

Regards


Name: Saeed Farani - June 12, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dr. Manzur Sahib started very important discussion. And specially after the events of 11th Sep and then its afterward global effects and consequences. The concept of God which was very same in the eyes of KaTh Mullahs and Capitalists in seventies and eighties or after the Balshwik revolution is now broken and there is no more unity of thoughts on One God which was created or manufacturedat the time when they wanted to defeat (Ethiest block) Soveit Union and its allies. They both (Westerns and Mullahs) won this war JaphiyaaN pa pa ke. At that time when these English Lords were visiting the camps of Mujahideens they were raising slogans "Nara-e-Takbeer (T with hard sound because they cannot say soft t as we can) par fer eh yaari muk gai. Eh yaari see ke chcholyaaN da waDh. Jis de natije with aj Molvi da Khuda wakh tey West da Khuda Wakh. Par Sufi da Khuda othey ee ey because it is not the God of possessions and belongings. Eh ik new fight da izhar ho rehya ey. Ik hor new God manufacture karan da samaan ho rehya. Now these manufacturers want to get the help of Sufi Khuda in this regard. Dear frieds, I am clear in my mind but the language and other barriers are just stopping me. I hope this will be addition in the discussion so the friends could come to some conclusion.


Name: Zahra - June 11, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   MTM: I liked your poem. Also, the one you have on the front page...I have forgotten the exact page number, but it has very sweet verbiage and expressions.


Name: Zahra - June 11, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit06102002/reflections.asp


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 11, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   MitraaN layee

Kacha ChaTtha JindRee Da

Kujh YadaaN Wich Kujh KhabaaN Wich
Kujh Guzzree Umar AzabaaN Wich
Kujh KandayaaN Naal Gulab We Sun
Kujh Rull Gai Jind TurabaaN Wich
Kujh Aas Raee Kujh Piyas Raee
Kujh Bhatki Akhh SarsabaaN Wich
Kujh Din Aayee Baykari Day
Kujh Labhay Dard AtabaaN Wich
Kujh Ishq Anaa Wich Ja Dubayaa
Kujh Kismat Day GardabaaN Wich
Kujh Dil Wee Thak Kay BaiTth Gaya
Kujh Pay Gayee Assee HasabaaN Wich


Name: Zahra - June 11, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/10/movies/10SING.html


Name: Gursharan Singh - June 11, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, va     USA
Comments:   Lao Ji Sajjno ik hor Cheez Hazir Hai

Jeem Jaan de Charkhe nu Moorkha Oye
Lai Chala Vat Koi Fatoor Hove
Lai Ke Rooi Pyar de Naam Waali
Wat Pooniyaan Raaji Gafoor Hove
Taqla Sidak,Yakeen Da Maahl Pa Ke
Man(dil)Ka Pa Manka,Je Shaour Hove
Isqe Lahr Tu Katda Rehu Hardam
Khorey Kehri Tand Manzoor Hove
Eh lines mainu Shah Hussain di ik book vichon miliyaan han. Jis wich ke lekhak dasna chah reha hai ke Shah Hussain di tarah hi os samey de kai Shairaan ne Charkhe Lafz di kaafi varton kitti hai.SO LONG


Name: Bawa, - June 11, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Sorry Safirji for misspelling your name in the post. In the article in DAWN the author mentions another book on Zafar as his source, and says that he wrote bhajans and other things in Punjabi! It would be marvellous, je sahno kitoN labb jaHn.
Bawa


Name: Bawa, - June 11, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Dear Safitji:
I have tried to look up what you said of Zafar writing in Punjabi and have not come across any reference in any of the books at hand. I was also unaware of this facet. But there is a mention of his Punjabi writings in the following article in DAWN
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/14/fea.htm
Perhaps its writer would have some info?
I also have this link to a beautiful website on Zafar (unfortunately nothing on his Punjabi, but haven't really searched the whole site): you can download his (almost) complete works! at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~kapadia/zafar.html
Baki I will try to gather some more info when I have time for more detailed reading. BAWA.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 10, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Manzur: (Don’t expect me to call you a ‘doctor’, unless you are a medical doctor. Just because someone may have the poor taste of flaunting his doctorate like a medal of honor doesn’t mean that everyone around him should always honor him for spending a few extra years in school. Sorry, but I believe it is proper only in a professional or academic setting, not here). Anyway, all I want to say is that it is not possible to understand Islamic Sufism without proper understanding of the idea of “Wahdat-ul-wajood.” Taking a few lines from Punjabi Sufi poetry, out of context, will not do the job. I know some people in Pakistan (Major Ishaaq of Mazdoor/Kissan party and others) who tried to prove that Punjabi Sufi poets were hidden socialists waiting to be discovered and taken out of closet in the light of Marxist/Leninist dogma. There were many things that were beyond Marx’s imagination and understanding (and of his followers). Sufism was one of them.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - June 10, 2002
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dr. Sahib: The first part of the Kalima is the base of sufism and it is a combination of Negation and Acceptance. It is the common thing in Islam and Christainity and even in Hinduism. You have quoted the verses of different poets regarding to first part 'La illa' (Negation). For the consistent spiritual personalities, the latter part 'IL Allah' is an essential step in Salook. First Kafi of Shah Hussain 'Rabba Mere Hall Da Mehramm ToN' plus lot of other kafis in Acceptance, Bulleh Shah's 'Ahad Ahmad Wich Farq Na Koi Rutti Ko Bhaet MaroRi Da' or 'Ek Alaf Parho Chutkara Ai'. Sultan Bahu's 'Nafi Assbaat Da Pani Milia...' and many many more shows their clarity about God rather than the theocratic idealogy of the clergy about religion and God. So in that sense, sufis are the people who are always on the way of ultimate beauty (God).


Name: Shikra - June 10, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra....... you sound as confusing as ever!!!!!!!!!


Name: Zahra - June 10, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear DB: Pagloan Kae Sur Pur Seengh Naheen Hotae. Ho Saktaa Hae Kae Main Aik Pagal Hoon with a fine facade :) Hope that says something, if not all.


Name: Zahra - June 10, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dr. Ejaz:
This is so strange that you brought up what you brought up. I am reading a book on Mystic Women In Islam and the more I read it the more I find it inspirational as well as disturbing. I have not finished it yet therefore I cannot claim to understand all the nuances. I just got that as a present on my birthday last week from a close friend with whom i share the mental and spiritual wavelength at times. This book is on Rabia Basri and is written by an American Author, Margaret Smith. Somehow, the first few chapters were very inspirational, whereas the one I am reading is, very controversial. http://www.maryams.net/biog.shtml
The questions you have asked were answered in the first few chapters...rest later,


Name: baga - June 10, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   "Their aim was to purify and spiritualize Islam from within, to give it a deeper, mystical interpretation, and infuse into it a spirit of love and liberty. " How is this possible? If they purify and spiritualize islam, and infuse into it a spirit of love and liberty they are indeed changing islam. From manzur's post, point no 6. "They did not believe in intermediaries between Him and the man" Would this negate the concept of a prophet who directly speaks to god, or is given divine messages from god? I also asked this earlier but is there a consequence is one does not live his life according to sufi beliefs. (hell, reincarnation).


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 10, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Manzur: That was an interesting, though clearly apparently a leftist/antagonist view of Sufism. Long before it reached Punjab, Sufism had been practiced for centuries in both Islamic and Christian lands. It was never, ever, completely divorced from the fundamentals of religion or the concept of God. Sufi’s shunned all unnecessary religious formalities, but NOT their religious beliefs. A Christian Sufi remained a Christian and a Muslim Sufi remained a Muslim. So when you say “They did not believe in any formal religion..and it meant none whatsoever…” I hope you mean that they didn’t believe in practicing some of their religion’s formalities, not that a Muslim Sufi no longer believed in Islam as a religion or Quran as its manifestation and word of God. To further elaborate, here is a brief quotation from Cyprian Rice:

“The Sufi phenomenon is not easy to sum up or define. The Sufis never set out to found a new religion, a mazhab or denomination. They were content to live and work within the framework of the Moslem religion, using texts from the Quran much as Christian mystics have used to Bible to illustrate their tenets. Their aim was to purify and spiritualize Islam from within, to give it a deeper, mystical interpretation, and infuse into it a spirit of love and liberty. “


Name: DullaBhatti - June 10, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra Jee, can you please clarify the your conversation with yourself in the last post?:-)


Name: Zahra - June 10, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Ya Elahi: Why is that everything I state I need to come back with a clarification?

Mind: Probably, I have to start writing from the perspective that I am on a gender sensitive forum.
To Myself: Do I care?
Myself: :)


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 10, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   RE: Hey, just a quick question about sufi s? Did sufis believe in god? Interesting question in itself. This question assumes that there is a fixed identity of God (like chair or table which are verifiable)and the humans can either believe it or not. Further, the "isness" in if there is a God resembles with "isness" of if there is a table. Limitation of language does not give us a chance to differentiate between two types of phenomena. Anyway, to get to an answer of this question (if sufis believed in God ?)one has to find out what they DIDN't BELIEVED in. That will provide us clues. Generally, they did not believe in the following: 1. God is not a fixed entity Thapia naN Jaiy Kita NaN Hoey, APey Aap Naranjan Soey (Baba Nanak) 2. They did not believe in cast, creed color or nationhood. Jaihra zat tey watan wal dhian rakhey, duniadar hey oh darwesh keha (Waris Shah) 3. They did not believe in any formal religion..and it meant none whatsoever. naN maiN Mooman vich MasitaN, naN main vich Kufar dian RitaN (Bulleh Shah) 4. They neither believed in embracing the lust of the world nor in abandong the world. nan Ghar bari naN musafar (Shah Husain) 5. They did not believe in finding the God through adopting a certain disposition Jay rab milda nahatiaN dhotiaN, rab milda dadhwan mushian nooN Jey rab milda wal wadahian, rab milda bhidaN sassiaN noon Jey rab milda jatiaN satian, rab milda dhagian khasiaN noon' (Sultan Bahu) 6. They did not believe in intermediaries between Him and the man. By negating intermediaries and ambracing immediacy, they eliminated the justification for theocracy and preisthood. They also negated professional spirtualists who were claiming to intervene in the nature through miracles. For sufis, natutre and history are forces that can can be violated. Note: I will add to the list later ..you can add yours too.


Name: GURSHARAN SINGH - June 10, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: reston, va     USA
Comments:   Hello Friends

hazir hai SAAVE PATTR waale Mohan Singh Di ik rachna

Pyare pyare Nanney Taarey
Sooraj de Pighley Sone vich Khabr nahin kyon dhalde,
APPA CHALDE
Motiaan vargi Traail Savargi,
Vaayu(breeze)di nighi Bukal vich,
Khabr nahin kyon Lukdi
AIWEN MUKDI
Lehraan waali Nadi Suchali(sohni tor waali)
Khabr nahi kyon khaar Saagar wich,
Garak Hai kyon Ho jaandi
AAP GAVAANDI
Mainu te je Rabb vi Aakhe:
Aa mere Chorepan de vich Rall Ja
Kadi Na Rallan
VAKH HI KHALAAN
Rabb Vich Rall ke Aapa Chhal(Decieve)Ke,
Haaye!Sakkaan ga Maan Kiven Main,
Eh Duniya De Nazaare
RAS RANG SAAREY
Oh Ki Banda?Changa Ja Manda,
Rakh na Sakey Jo Sab Duniya Ton,
Vakhra Apna Aapa
KAL KALLAPA

Aas Hai Aap Lokaan nu Pasand Aaugi. Mere kheyaal naal Kavi Is vich Zindagi de Tin Paddaw de lokaan(Bache,Jawaan te Bajurg)di Zindagi baare gal baat karvaa reha hai.O Jiven Urdu vich Kehnde nai ke Zindagi ke Nuktae Nazar di gall Baat Karva reha hai. Atleast this is what I understand. What you Guys Think.

RAB RAKHA


Name: Saeed Farani - June 10, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi,      Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Safir Rammah Jee,

I sent four books as gift for APNA library. LORIAAN, MAHIYAAs, Hunter,dove, hawk and snake. I hope you can use them to enrich this site.

Baqi enj lagda ey jeevajN gal maThi pay gai ey. Rabb karay es khitay wich wee aman howay tay ethey wee loki life nooN life samjh kay jee sakan.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 10, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Suman jee, great job on the translations of wedding songs. Thanks a lot. Now that is a lot better than the fruitless giT-miT going on this page below.:-)

Mitro(very humbly,gender neutrally), tuhadi giT-miT paRh ke dukh vi honda ay par jehRiyan dil ch ne oh baahir vi auniaN chahidiyaN ne.....bass ikk doojay da jhaaTa na khohvo.:-)

Zakki ji, sorry, i could not transliterate the poem yet...I read a improved version of it today in the mehfil and was liked by people. I believe vast majority of the people want peace and even when a few say drop the nukes..they say it out of frustration and their inability to have any say in bringing the peace.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 10, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:  
Saleem Asghar Jee!!! Jo hukam Jnaab da.
Par jnaab maazrat de naal ay zuroor kawannN ga keh "PUNJABI" hovay te ohday vichoN "PUNJAB" dissay na te oh kahDa PUNJABI??? jehRa boota apniaN jaRaaN tooN Katt javay oh jeenda nahi rehnDa.Khush Rawo te wsday Rawo.
Rab Rakha


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 09, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Sajid: On the contrary, Zahra has every right to decide how she would like to be addressed. If she prefers it to be gender neutral, that is her prerogative. You appear to be saying that a Punjabi lady “should” and must find bibi and behan as suitable and acceptable salutations in all circumstances. There doesn’t seem to be any room for an individualistic choice in your world outlook.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 09, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:  
Zahra Jee!!!!
This is a PUNJAB's Forum and here in PUNJAB we have our own valuse regarding gender.We treat "Bibi's" and "Bhain's" in a special respected way.We give them their "Their unique respective statues".We make them realize that they have a special and respected status among us and keep them with us in any matter of life with us.It is "Na Qabil-e-Tardeed" truth that "Bibi" and "Bhain" has her OWN pesonality and status that must be kept in mind and must be respected.If you deny it, i eat my words.


Name: Zahra - June 09, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   I did not read what was written in an earlier post and after reading that I am a little stunned. When anyone writes on this forum, they write because they are participants, regardless of their gender. These traits where someone writes Bibi or the other fella comes forth saying...(Tae bhainaan vee) is very biased. A participant is a participant, regardless of their gender. The ones who are uncomfortable with the idea have no place on this forum or anywhere else.


Name: Zahra - June 09, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Safir Rammah: I am sorry I wasn't sure of who is who here. My apologies.


Name: Safir Rammah - June 09, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax,      USA
Comments:   Zahra: With this note, I am redirecting your comments back to Manzur that you have mistakenly directed towards the "Moderator's' of this forum, that will be me. The earlier posting that you were responding to was by Manzur alone, bila jabro-ikrah, etc.


Name: Zahra - June 09, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dr. Ejaz: I am glad the vibrance provoked you to jump in and share your perspective. I must make something clear that my critique was only on this forum and not on the website at all. I have great respect and qadar for the site in general. In fact, I have printed out the first page and have chaspaan keeyo-fied that right near my computer at work. Some colleagues had questions on the saints and sages on my desk.

Moderators: In order to share the work load of this site, you need to mention the total expenses you are incurring. And then see how you can get some assistance in that regard. Now, being vague or shurmao-fying ain't going to help in anyway, but being straightforward will assist here. I am not sure if APNA is registered as a non-profit, but whether it is or it is not, I think many will still like to pitch in. But please, be direct.
Oh, but I must mention that I am a critcic. So, please start with the fans first. Oh, and please start with the West Coast Walas first. Just kidding...just kidding.


Name: Safir Rammah - June 09, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Friends: I have recently read some interesting references to knowledge of Punjabi in Dehli’s darbar during the reign of Bahadar Shah Zafar and his grandfather Shah Alam II in a book written by Frances W. Pritchett “Nets of Awareness: Urdu Poetry and Its Critics” (Berkley University Press, 1994). Frances notes that Shah Alam II “… was fluent in Punjabi.”

More interestingly, Bahdar Shah Zafar “..had mastered not only Urdu and Persian but also Braj Bhasha and Punjabi as well; he composed a volume (devan) of poetry in each of these four languages. Like his grandfather, he used two separate pen names: “Zafar” for poetry in Urdu and Persian, “Shouq Rang” for the rest of his verses.”

Frances has referenced a book “Bahadar Shah Zafar” written by Pervez for this piece of information. This is the first time I have learned that Bahadar Shah Zafar was also a Punjabi poet and has composed a devan in Punjabi. The reference to Pervez’s book is incomplete. It is not indicated who published it and when. Full name of the author is also not given.

I will be greatly interested in finding out if someone has any more information about Bahader Shah Zafar’s Punjabi poetry.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 09, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Jnaaaab Manzur Ejaz Sahib :) O sir g kithay chalay gaey o jadon de pakistan tooN gaey o aj pehli wari jnaab da naam sunya ay. Te yaqeen karo baRI khushi hoee. Gal kuch ays taraN ay ji keh.Har banda tayyar ay har qisam di support laee. Par mera nahi khayal keh kisay ne aj tak ais paassay dheyaan ditta ay.Tusi membership application vich ay cheez puchday te o laikin aj tak kisay ne iss kam laee members dey naal rabita keeta?????
Aj tusi ay gal keeti ay te menoo umeed ay keh saray bhara apna apna hissa zuroor paan gaey.(Te BhainaN ve)
AseeN har tarhaN hazir jnaab.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 09, 2002
E-mail: manzur_ejaz@yahoo.com
Location: Fairfax Station,      USA
Comments:   It is nice to see a vibrant discussion on this forum. Wheather this site is perfect or otherwise, one aspect is being ignore. The site has been supported by individual efforts of a few dedicated persons. Responses and membership is inceasing tremendousely but not translating itself in increased financial resources. May be the users of this site should pay some attention to this aspect and start contributing something to maintain this site. This will show your concrete love for the work being done here. I would like to hear from you all.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 09, 2002
E-mail: Sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Ballay Bahi Ballay Saleem jeee. Tusi te CHAAA gaey o. JehRi gall aseeN lokaN nooN inni dair vich nahi samjha sakay tusi ikko HALLAY vich KANDAA e kaDh ditta j. Par menoo umeed ay twanoo kuch hor time laggay ga.
JewnDay Ravo.
Rab Rakha


Name: Zahra - June 09, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Saleem Asghar: Good Points!

That's it?


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 08, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA, CA     USA
Comments:   Zahra Bibi: Who says this site is perfect? First of all it is dedicated to Punjabi literature, language and culture. Now how stupid it is to talk about Punjabi in the presence of King's English and Royal Urdu and Maha Hindi, right? Then this site tries to develop solidarity among all Punjabi's - another serious problem, you may say. I can keep on and mention many other problems with this site that you probably already know. The main problem, as you know, is that one has to have a love for Punjabi and Punjabiat (another idea you may have serious objection too)to appreciate the work being done here. So you are right. One should critcise, not praise this site. People who are so dumb that they love their mother tongue and feel happy to find others who care about it and get excited to say a word of praise on this forum need someone like you to help them wise up. You are doing a great service here. keep on.


Name: Zahra - June 08, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bawa: On your mention of Meher Ali and Sher Ali, I am reminded of a live qawwali that I heard in Asia Society few years back, where the duo sang a passionate number, Punjabi. That was the best number in their 2-3 hour qawwali session. And, I agree with you that they have beautiful vocals and lyrics. But I also felt that they could not do a good job in mimicking the style of Nusrat Fateh Ali in the numbers they sang from NFAK's collection. They did very well when they continued with their own selection. In fact, the are far better than Rahat Nusrat Ali.


Name: Zahra - June 08, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   On another note, my apologies to those who requested me for that article...I will email it to them inshallah this weekend. Have been under a lot of pahars of work and studying...


Name: Zahra - June 08, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Long long time ago far far away someone said," when everyone agrees with me on everything I say that means I must be wrong." If I apply that analogy to the eulogy stated by another new comer saying that this site is perfect...I am sure something must be seriously wrong somewhere :) :D :)
Any critique on my above deduction?

Hai Koi Critic still alive and breathing?


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - June 08, 2002
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, ON     CAN
Comments:   hello everyone. last time i posted was perhaps over 6 months ago. anyhow, i will observe the topics for abit, then i shall enter the fray. KAMRAN


Name: M.A.Saghier - June 08, 2002
E-mail: saghier@msn.com
Location: paris,      USA
Comments:   I SEE FIRST TIME THIS WEB THIS IS PERFECT AND CORECT SIDE OF PUNJABI


Name: Sardarz - June 08, 2002
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Salaam dosto,Pichlaa sara hafta main out of town si,so tuhadae naal vartallap nahi ho sakeya.Kaafi intersting posts kiteena tuis saareyaaN ne.Gursharan ji I liked the poem you posted.I still have a lot to catch up,especially to read the link that Zahra sent regarding the washington post article,will air my comments after I read it.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 08, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:  
Fahim Ji!!!
These quotations i had noted from a website.I dont remember the name or link for the site.Sorry for that.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - June 08, 2002
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sajid, are these quotations from KASHF-AL-MAJOOB?? Or some other resource?


Name: sajid chaudhry - June 07, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   Bagga note my AOL ID bhola302420


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 07, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Bagga Ji
I guess at the moment you are online so please come in APNA chat room we discuss it there.


Name: bagga - June 07, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Sajid ji, okay from the definitions on sufisim, it is essentially a philosphy on how to live life, it guides man on how to live his life. Now what happens if man does not live his life accoring to sufi views. Is there anything about that? For sufism to be a religion there would have to be a path to follow and a consequence (hell, reincarnate as a smelly goat, etc...). Maybe i am just confusing sufism to be a religion, rather than just a philosphy of life, like confucionsim, tao, etc..


Name: sajid Chaudhry - June 07, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Sorry Safir Jee the first i test if pre tag works or not and second time it was due to accidental hit of ENTER. Dear Bagga Ji.... Before going deep in this topic lets see How some famous Sufi define Sufism.
1- Muhammad ibn 'Ali al-Qassab
"Sufism consists of noble behavior (akhlaq karima) that is made manifest at a noble time on the part of a noble person in the presence of a noble people."
2- Junayd "Sufism is that you should be with God--without any attachment."
3- Ruwaym ibn Ahmad "Sufism consists of abandoning oneself to God in accordance with what God wills."
4- Samnun "Sufism is that you should not possess anything nor should anything possess you."
5- Abu Muhammad al-Jariri "Sufism consists of entering every exalted quality (khulq) and leaving behind every despicable quality."
6- Ali ibn 'Abd al-Rahim al-Qannad "Sufism consists of extending a 'spiritual station' (nashr maqam) and being in constant union (ittisal bi-dawam)."

I hope this will clear your concept about sufism. then we'll proceed. Rab Rakha


Name: bagga - June 07, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   http://www.theonion.com/onion3804/indo-pakistani_tensions.html This is too funny =).


Name: bagga - June 07, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
My URL:
Comments:   Sajid, i dont think i phrased that correctly, what i am really asking, is how is sufism related to islam? Some say it is a sect of islam and others say it is totally seperate from islam? What exactly is the sufi's view of god? I belive i have read somewhere that the sufis's goal in life is to surrenders to God, without any attachment. Do they beleive in heaven/hell , reincarnation, etc..??


Name: Bali K Deol - June 07, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   An article of interest. Vekhlo inj nee lagda jiven goriyaaN diyaan MaulkhaaN vich Punjabi di saade desaaN naaloN jiada seva ho rahi e?

Head for British schools to learn Punjabi

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=12270046


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 07, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Bagga Ji!!!!
If you really dont know this....... i suggest you to know the word "SUFI". Everything will be clear to you. :)


Name: bagga - June 07, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Hey, just a quick question about sufi s? Did sufis believe in god?


Name: bagga - June 07, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Hey, just a quick question about sufi s? Did sufis believe in god?


Name: Naseer.ud.Din Shah - June 07, 2002
E-mail: qamaraslam@langoo.com
Location: Lahore, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Meray wallon sab Punjabi Bhrawan noon Salam Tohadey sarian wastey main Duaa karna wan key tusi sarey sada wasdey tey hasdey rawo. Tusi vee merey wastey Duaa kardia karo main tohada bara shukarguzar howan ga. Tohadey sarian wastery Bulley Shah da ik sher likh rehan umid karna wa a tohanoon changa legey ga. Bulley shah chal othey chaliye jithey sarey howan anneh na koi sadi zat pachaney na koi sahanoon manney


Name: gursharan Singh - June 07, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, va     USA
Comments:   HARE IT IS FRIENDS

Sochaan vich raat langh gayi tere jaan da suneha jadon aaya
Maseyaa di raat varga meri akhaan agey haner jeha chayaa

Khamb la ke udd gayiyen haaye ni marjaaniye
kise saahitkaar di adooriyey kahaaniye
udon meri dhaa nikli jadon aan kise kunda kharkaya

kise mahakavi diye kavita dulariye
haaye ni kise shair diye gazale piyariye
umraan beet gayeeyan tera kaafia samjh na aaya

Sochaan vich.......

mainu umeed hai ke pasand aayi hovegi


Name: Safir Rammah - June 07, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Bawa: Thanks for your offer. Please do send Mehr Ali and Sher Ali's music. Here is my mailing address:

13349 Jasper Court, Fairfax, Va. 22033 USA


Name: Sajid chaudhry - June 07, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Imran Ji! I'm well aware of the conditions of "maaN jee" in my area. But the question is "WHAT are we doing for them?" are we able to prevent them suffering only by discussions and raising slogans??
If you feel that you are doing EACH AND EVERY thing to make them smile. Then you'll feel a smile on your face automatically. Jokes posed here don't effect them ANY way. These are just to release the tension on our minds and refresh ourselves so that we may serve people in a better way. I dont think a tensed mind can do anything for anyone.Any arguments????


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 07, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmal.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Imran i didn't mean you to stop posting here.I just want people not to pass comments on others posts as "loosy joks" etc. If admin feels something wrong, he must take action on it. It is surely not ADMIN's forum to Dance on.
Safir Jee please note the point that we need a proper software for Forum for different threads so that people could follow the posts of their interest.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 07, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

By the way, I stand by my statement of serving "maaN boli". We can delude ourselves, but the reality is that our "maaN jaae" are suffering. Look around in Sahiwal, and I a sure you will see it all around you. And jokes posted here do suck. :-)


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 07, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sajid

,

Exactly, my point! But, when I said the same thing in slightly a different way, somehow, my posts were deleted while leaving the ones that had incited my counter arguments. Strage, isn't it?

These are discussion forums and nobody should be allowed (including the admins, unless, of course, they want to dance on the forum by themselves) to dictate what to post. If somebody doesn't want to read a particular participants' posts then they should simply use the scroll function of their browser instead of bitching.

I will take your advice and will make it my last post. But, please consider what I said, if you want this forum to be a success. And kindly consider getting a proper forum software to create different sections (Culture, Politics, etc.) like other forums, if technically feasible. So, people could hang out where they like.

No hard feelings...


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 07, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Imran!! If you feel that this forum is nomore of your interest.Please go for a new one that satisfy your needs.Everyone here has his/her own thoughts and everyone here better knows how he is serving "maaN boli" and dont need your kind suggestions. I remember very well that once someone had pass comments on Zahra's post and she said "maiN kisay de ser te BandooQ nahi rakhi hoee keh tusi meri posts paRho". Jnaab kisay ne ve kisay de ser te BandooQ nahi rakhi hoee. Twanoo jehRi nahi changi lagdi na paRhoo.It is not your job to tell people what and how to write here. It i my humble request to be carefull to pass comments on other's posts. Let everyone do their job.


Name: Zahra - June 07, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: To each their own.


Name: Shikra - June 06, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji ... sorry I didnt notice your Request about the forgotten punjabi 'kallian' but I will start posting them as soon as I have spare time.


Name: Shikra - June 06, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji thank you for putting us on the right track. kisi neh Sardarz nu asi jee-ayan akhee keh oh murdh ke wapas nahi aye, shayad kise ki fazool gala tho dargeh hongeh.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 06, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dullabhatti ji I think you once shared these words, thanks.

Nanak fikka boliye, tan mann fikka hoye. fikko fikka sadiye, fikkay fikki soye. fikka dargeh suttiye, munh thukka fikkay paye. fikka moorakh aakhiye paahna laye sajaaye.

I learn an incredible ammount about language and culture on this forum, as well I've had many calls from people who have visited the site after hearing me mention it on my show, and the second/third generation in particular say how much they learn, the others comment on how much they learn about our culture acoss the border. Perhaps jad insaan kuch sikhnaa chaahE te ohnu sabak sahmnE disda e, te je sirf apni matt deni chaaHE phir ohnu hor kee nazar aunaa?

So the forum is not as futile as some would make it sound:-) Safir you do amazing work with this site, its truly commendable, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Je towade varge enee apni maa boli dee seva hundE te phir ThoR kaadi hundi.

Shikra: Tusi te dasniaaN see oh 'KaliaaN' in detail. Time kadke likh devo hazoor, bari der intizaar karvaa ditta tussaN ne.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 06, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra, You are right about this forum. By making lousy jokes and scoring few [passing] cheerleading points, some people here think that they are somehow, serving their "maaN boli". I don't know how! Faraz had sparked a good discussion which I think wasn't totally irrelevant to this forum. BUT! I am sure you must have noticed that Pakistan forum is increasing turning into "Pee" forum, as aflatoon has been let lose again by the admins there. Oh well!


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 06, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra, You are right about this forum. By making lousy jokes and scoring few [passing] cheerleading points, some people here think that they are somehow, serving their


Name: Zahra - June 06, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bawa: Thank you for acknowledging my "unique" Jee Ayaan :) Are not we all unique in our hurkaat'o'saknaat (actions)? If we all are exactly the same then we will not tolerate each other past one post. Just my $ view :)


Name: Gursharan Singh - June 06, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, Va     USA
Comments:   Hello All,

Aj to panjabi da ik adha sher ja kise geet da tukda ja pher koi classic poetry da band tohadi seva vich hazir karan di koshish vich.

RAB RAKHA


Name: Gursharan Singh - June 06, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, Va     USA
Comments:   Hello All, This is just a test. My couple of posts were not posted earlier. Let me see what happend this time.


Name: Bawa, - June 06, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Safirji: My mail is giving me problems, so am posting this question here. I have discovered that I have some Punjabi sufi music by Mehr & Sher Ali and others, from one of the homages to NFAK by many asian (iranian, uzbeks, etc.) singers. What is the best way of sending it to you (in case you want it for your site (you can listen and decide if it is suitable).
Zahra: Tuseen jee ayan vee barhi vakhree taraan dinde o, anyway, welcome to Sardarz.


Name: Zahra - June 06, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/pakistan/front.html


Name: Lovejeet - June 05, 2002
E-mail: lovejeet_singh@yahoo.com
Comments:   This web page is really cool... here one joke for all punjabi's..... chiiiiiillllll Bhola goes to 'Kaun Banega Karodpati' show. Amitabh Bachchan asks him, "Bholaji aap kiske saath yahan aaye hai?" Bhola : " Pitaaji ke saath". Amitabh : "Aap ke pitaaji ka shubhnaam?" Bhola : "Hmm.... yes." Amitabh : "Amm.... kya naam hai aapke pitaji ka?" Bhola : "Hmm... OK." Amitabh : "Are Bholaji, main aapse aapke pitaji ka naam poochh raha hoon" Bhola : "Pehle mujhe chaar options to do ! ! !"


Name: Saeed Farani - June 05, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Pindi,      PAKISTAN
Comments:   Zahra Jee, Please post me the article on Kashmir published in Walls Street Journal. Though I am trying to find it on http://www.opinionjournal.com/ Thanks.


Name: Zahra - June 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   The article's name is "India's Kashmir Ambitions."


Name: Zahra - June 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dr. Zaki: Never mind. For the reader, hur baat samajh main ani zaroori naheen.And for the writer, hur jumlae main wazan hona lazmi naheen :) I just discovered this theory within the past 24 hours. I guess after reading the stupid larayan in South Asia, I am losing my mind.

For those of you, who like to browse through news and views, I strongly suggest reading today's Wall Street Journal's article on Kashmir. It's an excellent perspective and covers both India and Pakistan very well. I hope someone forewards that to Vajpayee as well. It's under Review and Outlook section. I cannot provide the link or the contents here. If anyone is interested, please send me an email. Thanks.


Name: Javed Zaki - June 04, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Zahra Ji! I am sorry, I did not get your point. I am very much aware of the media bias. I never take any thing (particularly, in the media) at the face value and try to search the truth in its appropriate context through all possible means. Naale aini siyaasat di gal na karo je saadi posting te e ponja phher jaae.


Name: Shera - June 04, 2002
E-mail: Shere@hotmail.com
Comments:   Does anyone know where i can find those beautiful paintings of the great lovers, Heer- Ranjah, Mirza-Sabhain on the internet?


Name: Zahra - June 04, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dr.Zaki: Asr Kyoun Hosi? What are you trying to imply? I thought that the province is sitting on cloud 9 waving others saying that we all are united when it comes to people from iss paar or uss paar. Who cares what happens to the rest of the world? Did something change somewhere? If yes, where?
Sarcasm aside, it's a pity to read what's being promoted about South Asia in general. Washington Post has very bleak details on Pakistan. Please visit their site and do a search on Pakistan. It's amazing to read the nasty stuff. It seems Pamela Constable is paid twice to write against Pakistan. This review was by someone else who may have served as a disciple to Ms.Constable.


Name: Javed Zaki - June 03, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Dulla Bhatti Ji! Tohaadi nazm de roman version di odeek e. Waise tusi changga kita e, kam-uz-kam gurmukhi paRhn waaliyaaN nooN te chus aasi. Roman vich likhan naal kei mushakalaaN paida ho rehiyaaN neiN. Es te fer kadi gal hosi.
Baaqi Rub kare eh vaila khairiN langh jaae. NeiN te donaaN paase bhuk-nang hor wadh jaasi. Per ehda sab tooN wadda usar Panjab te hosi.


Name: Zahra - June 03, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sardarz: You can see the guilty conscious slowly and steadily introducing themselves. Now you know who to be aware of :) :)


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 03, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:  

Intellectual Lokan diyan gallaN Intellectual lok e jaaNaN


ISPGOL TE KUJH NA PHAROL


Aj te main ve shair shair khaiDaan Gaaaa. Araz keeta ay ji

TooN mere TANN naal KhaDyA
TooN mere MANN naal KhaDyA
Toon mere DHANN naal KhadyA
WELL PLAYED WELL PLAYED


Name: Shikra - June 03, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   meaowwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!Put your claws away.


Name: Zahra - June 03, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Sardarz: As far as being able to connect to Punjabis from iss paar and uss paar is concerned that's fine. This website has tremendous amount of intellectual capital stored, but this forum is stuck up and rigid - quite opposite to what the website stands for. Interesting, what we appreciate in those who are not amongst us anymore, is something we are hesitant to emulate. Good Luck with your journey!


Name: Bali K Deol - June 02, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Sajid Ji: Shukriya hazoor, towadiyaan rang barangeeyaaN gallan sunke mazaa aa gaya, likhde rehana! Sardarz: Ji aaya nu ji.

Since we still have war clouds hanging over us, mein vee kuch likhna chaundi es de baarE.

Kamm sab dE aiyiyE, AinE meharbaan nahi banE
Keeta jaaniyE, ainE vee kaderdaan nahi banE
DaultaaN te rutbiyaaN de pichE jo 'naa' vikaan
SaariyaaN de es kadar eemaan nahi banE
Ban gaye hun Hindu, Sikh te Musalmaan
Ban gaye hun Hindu, Sikh te Musalmaan

.......Tauba Mere KhudaaH, ajje insaan nahi banE.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 02, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Dulla Bhatti Ji
Kharabi bohti e technical ay. Wesay aapas di gal ay koi khaas shay si wakhan wali?? Tusi te 2 warian toon baad e dil chaD gaye o. vesay link e de diyo aseen othoN vaikh lenay aan jnaab.
Sardarz Ji
you are right.APNA is really a plateform where people from both east and west punjab can share their thoughts and feelings of brotherhood.My grand father also used to tell us many interesting things about "Jalandher" and it was really a fun to hear all about it.He always wished to visit his homeland but alas he couldn't do this. I wish one day i'll vist that homeland of my forefathers.You are most welcome to visit "Sheikhupura"

Khush Rawo tw Khush Rakho


Name: Sardaz - June 02, 2002
E-mail: Sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Hi Zahra, Thanks for the welcome note and the forewarning.I will be awre of it.I dont know if I would have anything new to discuss, what ever I used to feel strongly about I am already seeing it happening like I always used to think why all punjabis cannot be on the same thinking platform,why does the only difference of religion keep punjabi's apart as a community,but I am glad to see that gap brigded here.My family migrated from Sheikhupura district of West Punjab in 1947 and I have always in awe of the where my father and his father's father.. were born. My Grandpa always had nice things to say about his former homeland.I have always dreamed about visiting pakistan.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 02, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zaki ji, ajj har jiyoNday Punjabi da dil tuhade waang ee taRaph riya ay...kall raat main vi ehna sochaN wich si...socheya din chaRhe tuhade naal sanjha karaNga...din chaRheya te tusi pehlay hi duwaavaN mang rahe si Punjab lai...lai meri vi ikk dua kabool howe...it is incomplete poem and will post roman version later on.


Name: Javed Zaki - June 02, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sajno! India-Pakistan de boddar te ik kaal jei laal daile kudh-kudh waah-ran nooN pei phhir di e, ohde kroodh bhare munn di jinni vi niNdia kiti jaae ghat e. Es hawaale naal ik nazm haazar e.

........."SAADA DES PANJAB ABAD RAHE"...........

Shaala wasdiyaaN rahn e jhokaaN
Saada des Panjab abad rahe
Munn mehr pavve sab lokaaN

Jithe Nanak dera laaya si
Ji-ji vich noor jagaaya si
Jag ekta sabaq paRhaaya si
...Othe qehr cha paaya lokaaN
...Shaala wasdiyaaN rehn e jhokaaN
...Saada des Panjab abad rahe
...Mann mehr pavve sab lokaaN

Jithe faqr Fareed da chan chaRhya
Jidde chaanan vich kal-jugg tarya
Sach piyaar da madh rag-rag bharya
...Othe qehr cha paaya lokaaN
...Shaala wasdiyaaN rehn e jhokaaN
...Saada des Panjab abad rahe
...Mann mehr pavve sab lokaaN

Jithe Shah Hussain rajhaaya si
Nach-nach ke yaar manaaya si
Ik Jag da kufar haNdaaya si
...Othe qehr cha paaya lokaaN
...Shaala wasdiyaaN rehn e jhokaaN
...Saada des Panjab abad rahe
...Mann mehr pavve sab lokaaN

Jith Bullhe surt di agg baali
Jithe Waaris Prem di lajj paali
Jithe Heeran (Heer) Yaar di matwaali
...Othe qehr cha paaya lokaaN
...Shaala wasdiyaan reh e jhokaaN
...Saada des Panjab abad rahe
...Mann mehr pavve sab lokaaN

Jithe Ravi, pir-chanhaaN (Chanaab) wagde
Jithe Jehlim-Sindhoo sukh jag de
Jithe Satlaj-jooh maile lagde
...Othe qehr cha paaya lokaaN
...Shaala wasdiyaaN rehn e JhokaaN
...Saada des Panjab abad rahe
...Mann mehr pavve sab lokaaN


Name: Zahra - June 02, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sardarz: Welcome! I will be very keen to know the kind of topics you'd be interested to pitch in. Please make sure that you come up with something new. Please. This forum lacks the spark of innovative thinking and has too many participants who are very set in their mindset, so whenever they see someone(ahem)with energy and optimism(ahem) they start pulling that person towards themselves and as a result they put that person in their mind's prison. They make an effort to do that. Whether they are always successful or not, is another point :) :D

I am sorry it was just a welcoming note. There are some real nice souls and genteel spirits who are ghoomo phirofying arOund, so please read my previous critique with an open mind.

Khush Amadeed!


Name: Sardarz - June 02, 2002
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Location: Sacramento, CA     USA
Comments:   Great work, this site is the best discovery I have ever made on the Web.I am still in awe and greedily trying to listen to the immense music collection brought together here. I always used to think there has to be something that shares the language and music from both sides of the border,this is it.I just browsed through the messages here,there is too much to read and assimilate.I am not sure who manages this site,but who ever it is a person or a organistaion my Kudos to em.Keep up the goodwork and I hopefully will join you fellas in the discussion forum in near future.


Name: Safir Rammah - June 01, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Raja: Zahra is right. There is no point in posting lengthy articles from other web sites to here. It should be sufficient to provide a brief note on why a particular article is of some interest and post just the URL. Here is the link to the material that was in your posts:

http://www.maboli.com/Sikh_HR/pages/documents/83_Hindu_sikh_conflict.html


Name: Zahra - June 01, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Moderator: I have some questions and concerns on the length of articles that are being posted by Ranjeet Singh Junior. I think RSJ could have routed us to the links than taking up so much bandwidth. Please look into this matter carefully. Thank You.


Name: Zahra - May 31, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Saeed Farani: Thanks for the picture. I have never agreed with your approach on certain matters. I still do not. I guess there is an idealogical disagreement here. Still, I respect your perspective as you are stating what you believe in and what you have observed. Thanks for the effort on the article's end. By the way, how will I get my chai kee patti? Please let me know. Thanks.


Name: Saeed Farani - May 31, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bagga and Shikra,

Don't worry this time if there will be war it will not be only among Punjabies. Now all the cities are under this death dance and everyone will have to taste it. That is also one the reason that there will be no any war.


Name: bagga - May 31, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Shikra, posting some of the older kalia would be greatly appreciated. So are u a singer or a writer? we really have some personalities on this board. On another note i was looking at the news in yahoo and they had a picture of pakistani Birg. Bajwa. Its pretty sad what this war is doing to punjabis. Its literally brother vs brother. I guess it just hits home, since pre partition we're from sialkot next to a bajwa pind.


Name: Saeed Farani - May 31, 2002
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra Jee, I have redirected the attachment to Safir Rammah jee. He has inpage facility. I have requested him that he print the matter and send you or use the way which is easy for both of you. These are the pages of Baba Farid Ganj Shakar. My other comments you can read in the early post of today. thanks.


Name: Savak - May 31, 2002
E-mail: savvak@hotmail.com
Comments:   Goood Day Every1.

I just wanted to add to my previous posting.
1 of the links also had an article by Jawed Naqwi which i forgot to mention. He's from New Delhi & his articles r included in the Dawn newspaper. this was the link.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/05/28/fea.htm#2

And now a couple of more additions to the previous list of links.

http://www.dawn.com/events/century/pla3.htm http://www.dawn.com/events/century/cul3.htm

As i mentioned b4 that these articles are related to the History & Culture of Punjab, therefore I deemed it necessary to post these articles to this forum.
I hope u would like these articles and give your much needed comments.

RAB RAKHA.


Name: Shereen Masoud - May 31, 2002
E-mail: shereenmasoud@hotmail.com
Location: San Jose, CA     USA
Comments:   Friends, I am the Chairperson of the Masud Khaddarposh Trust, Lahore, Pakistan. The trust was established for the promotion of punjabi language, literature and culture. I am visiting USA and will be in the USA till the 23rd of June 2002. If anyone wishes to contact me, please do so on the email given.


Name: Saeed Farani - May 31, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra, You wanted to know my comments on the present situation. SO here people are busy as usual they are. There is much rush at Dahi Bhala and Samosa shops. They are not afraid of war. Who are afraid of war they are away from war field. A person who is dying because of hunger or a person who does not have vision or a person who is sick of this continuous depressing situation welcomes war. SO people want this drama should now finish. The ill-fate of 10 millions people of Kashmir has become the ill-fate for 1130 millions people. It is a matter of great pity. Most of the people here are spectators (tamasha wakhan walay). So as they stand in the mid of street if someone just shouts on other and they start watching this seen forgetting all their necessary jobs so they are ready to watch this coming and rising "tamasha". It is really a bad tamming of the masses. So we just have to pray but what pray can do? I saw people fighting over small small petty things so pray does not work. With pray many other complimentary things are needed like wisdom or loving life. But we are stuck in the situation so what we can do, nothing, just pass the life helplessly. "moey sap wang wis gholday aaN. It is our fate.


Name: Shikra - May 30, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali... I will hold you to that promise, just the mention of gol gappe is making my mouth water already. I heard your show the other week and I loved your recital of jatta jaag (maybe you will be able to play my version on your show soon). Bagga...I have a vague idea of most of the stories but I dont claim to know every detail, although I have a close link with some famous lyrcists ie Jandu lithrawala who lives a few doors away from me. but as far as 'kallian go I think Hardev Dalgir 'tharikewala' was and still is the 'badshah' of traditional punjabi kallian. I will try and post the stories as I know them.


Name: Zahra - May 30, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Oh, how I am praying and praying that there should not be any war. No one should be killed. Saeed Farani, please tell me the sentiments around you. Last time I saw, Pindi was in Punjab. So, my question and concern is relevent. I do not need to justify that but thought of taking that route, in case, any maniac comes and tells me otherwise! You are more than welcome to send me your observations via email. I am interested in learning your perspective.
I could not open the attachment that you have sent me. Please send that to me as gif or jpeg. I do not have inpage on my computer. If I can download that without any museebat then I am ready to take that route. My preference will be gif or jpeg file.
Thanks.


Name: Bali K Deol - May 30, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Shaabaashe Shikra...I have to learn more about those stories. Das dena and when I come back to England, I'm taking you to Jallunder sweetshop for gol gappe and chaa..:-)


Name: bagga - May 30, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Hey shikra would u mind going into the stories of SHIRIN FARYAD, YOUSAF ZULEKHAN, RODA JALALI, KEEMA MALKI?? One of your guys should write a book on kalian. Its very hard to come by info in america. I though i had heard that somewhere before, is the album called Ucha Burj Lahore Da? I was actualy looking for it yesterday, i have it on tape somewehre.


Name: Yousaf - May 30, 2002
E-mail: panjabilinguist@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear friends, I find loke geet and wedding songs in English here at APNA site. Are they available in Panjabi on this website or somewhere else? Thanks for your help. Yousaf.


Name: Shikra - May 30, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   You are right Bali, it does mean exactly that and the song that bagga mentions is not a new creation by Punjabi Mc but it is indeed a cover version of the 'Sassi' track done by Surinder Shinda on his 1st album in 1978 and it was one of the 1st albums with music composed by Charanjit ahuja. Try and listen to the original album, it's a great collection of traditional 'kallian'. INDER BEGO's was simple story as the song by Dev Tharikewala so clearly explains. Inder was a tradesman and ran a shop that bego used to visit frequently. He was in awe of Begos beauty and it wasnt long before he fell in love with her and told her so, but she wasnt impressed by him and in a fit of anger said that if he really loved her he should set fire to his shop and drown himself in the river Ravi. In true lovers style he did so to prove his love to her. So as you can see there wasnt enough time for the story to develop and it ends tragically as do all love legends. There are many Punjabi legends that arent as famous as HEER RANJHA, MIRZA SAHIBAN, SOHNI MEHIWAL. There are many that are hardly mentioned these days ie. SHIRIN FARYAD, YOUSAF ZULEKHAN, RODA JALALI, KEEMA MALKI ETC.


Name: Savak - May 30, 2002
E-mail: savvak@hotmail.com
Comments:   Salam, namaste & Sat Sri Akal to everyone.

In each of the foll links contains an article by Majid Sheikh, who is an eminent columnist of the daily english news paper "Dawn".

The articles are related to Punjabi History & Culture. look for majid sheikh's article in each of the link which carry various features by other columnists.
The feature no. for M. sheikh's article is given with each link.

ENJOY. :)

http://www.dawn.com/2002/05/28/fea.htm#2 http://www.dawn.com/2002/03/17/fea.htm#2 http://www.dawn.com/2002/03/11/fea.htm#3 http://www.dawn.com/2001/07/01/fea.htm#2 http://www.dawn.com/2002/03/25/fea.htm#4 http://www.dawn.com/2001/04/30/fea.htm#4 http://www.dawn.com/2002/03/31/fea.htm#5 http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/07/fea.htm#3 http://www.dawn.com/2002/01/14/fea.htm#4 http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/02/fea.htm#3


Name: Bali - May 30, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   bagga: "do utha wale ni lut ke sees sassi di leg ay". sezz means bridal bed...hope it makes sense...and I hope I got it right too...

that name doesn't sound familiar..what kind of music does he do?


Name: bagga - May 29, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Bali, only thing i have ever heard about bego inder besides from manaks song is someone mentioning that they were one of the few sikh folk tales. Im surprised though that, no one has ever heard of either of them on this board. Speaking of kalian, from the new pmc desi, in the song sassi the main hook is "do utha wale ni lut ke sees sassi di leg ay". What does "sess" mean? Oh by the way have u ever heard of this guy kanwarsutra?


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 29, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   for all Apna friends - a geet (not to lighten the moods)

b>Nikka Saada ChoR Ho Gaya

Nikka Saada ChoR Ho Gaya
MaaN DaiyaaN LadaaN Naal
Matt Wali Gal NaaN Sunnay
UtouN Puthhay Siday Kar Da Swaal

Nikka Saada ChoR Ho Gaya

Aapay Suss Manjhay BaiThhdi
SannuN Mar Di Chaki Wal SaintaaN
Nikkay Day UlamaiN Sunn Sunn
Kan Puk Gay Tay Ud GayaaN RahamtaaN

Peeraa Way ChaRhawaaN Bakray
Jay Badlay Nikkay Di Chaal

Nikka Saada ChoR Ho Gaya

Jithay Meree Suss Warrtay
Uthhay MaiN WarrtouN NaiN Pani
Wakhi WichouN Gal Kar Di
Meray Nikkay Di Oo Punn Di Jawani

NunndaaN Sardari Ghar Di
Jeena Mera Hoya Dahda Aay Mohal

Nikka Saada ChoR Ho Gaya

Nimm Da GaRaa Way GhotnaaN
Suss Kutni SandoukaaN Oolay
MerayaN PichhlayaaN NouN
Jadd Bolay Oo Manda Ee Bolay

KewaiN SumjhawaaN Uss NouN
Gal Gal Tay Oo Putdi Waal

Nikka Saada ChoR Ho Gaya


Name: Zahra - May 29, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Saeed Farani: Could you please send me the booklet you planned to publish? I was not sure if you have already sent that to me or not. Please send it to me on my email address. Thanks.


Name: Saeed Farani - May 29, 2002
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Safir Rammah Jee,

I sent you the photo of Hazrat Sultan Bahoo through attachment. If you recieve it just answer me at the discussion forum or my yahoo.com account because I am feeling some troubles with Hotmail account. This is the only photo which I could find. After including Sultan Bahoo the galaxy of these great sufis will complete. I have prepared another pamphlet of my shop and I am including your advertisement. This time we are publishing 10000. This pamphlet will go from hand to hand in Pindi and Islamabad. Let us hope some good job for our mother tongue. Regards to all. Zahra, my sister and brother in law got the visit visas of USA and they will soon. I will send Kashmiri Patti (tea) for you. If anyone else need any thing from Pakistan, I will feel pleasure to send.


Name: Bawa, - May 28, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Safirji: No problem at all, its a pleasure, and please ask again anytime, although sometimes I am not on time!
Baliji: It would be good if you could find it, one could always ask the Man himself, but I think he's getting old and only replies if he gets the fancy (I mean K Singh!)I too have heard the Nusrat version, among others, but I am sure the Tufail Niazi version must be unique.
Suman: No,I hadn't heard him before, so thanks a lot; will make up for it. ALL APNA: Just saw in an earlier post somebody referring to me very kindly and saying, "ask Bawa, he's plugged into a lot of music sites.." Thanks for the comliment, but a small correction, I happen to be a She, not a He..I don't know how the confusion came about, or maybe there hasn't been the need to make a point of it before.
Will look forward to all those treasures you mentioned, and I am making some headway with my literary typing undertaking, so keeping my fingers crossed.


Name: Shikra - May 27, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   I am just testing to see if this message gets posted because nothing new has been put on this site


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 26, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   For all who are concerned and to whom what i say matters:)- Like capturing written and performing art material, APNA should look for getting paintings and drawings representing past and present of PUNJAB. It is good to have someone like Shikra among us, who being a painter can contribute, guide, assist, help and lead to uncover this aspect of PUNJAB and we will be able to show more shades and colors of PUNJAB on APNA pages. Just a food for thought. Moula Nighaban....


Name: Savak - May 26, 2002
E-mail: savvak@hotmail.com
Comments:   Another suggestion for the exalted forum. There are so many participants at this forum but its strange that i don't see any of u at the APNA CHAT. it would be good if we can interact there & have have a live discussion. i really love to read the different views discussed here. Thankyou.


Name: suman - May 25, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Safir. You have too much on your plate these days! But you are right Shujaat and Shafqat are two different guys - both very good. Where is the former btw? I can't spot him on the page.


Name: Shikra - May 25, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Awwwwwwwwwwwww poor baby hope you dont feel too left out Miss Zahra, but you are free to converse with us normal people when ever u prefer.


Name: Zahra - May 25, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Within the past 24 hours or so, no new post was added by the new comers who care to browse but are shy to write. I just thought of taking a quick peek, in case there may be something mentioned here, by any newcomer that may enlighten my little head. Koi Baat Naheen. Phir Kabhee...

Have a very nice long weekend readers and writers, friends and foes, polite and brazen, kind and unkind, crackpots and wise ones, sweet and not so sweet!

Just a clarification: Either you are one or the other. Please do not start developing an inflated ego thinking that you have all the good points :D :)


Name: Safir Rammah - May 25, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Suman: I have just added a link on APNA's page to Shujaat Khan's songs that you had sent me. Please check if that is the right name. I got a bit confused by the discussion on Shafqat Khan. I assume that Shujaat Khan and Shafqat Khan are two different singers.


Name: suman - May 25, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shikra. I will seriously look forward to the new tufail stuff, I really enjoy his singing. A CD by Shafqat that I recommend is called 'Seasons" (in case you have not heard it or anyone else would like to know) and is quite easily available.


Name: Shikra - May 25, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Suman: what a coincidence, you mentioned Shafqat Ali Khan and as I was reading your post, the cd that I was listening to was of non other than shafqat....spooky huh? he is the son of Ustad Salamat Ali Khan and resides in USA and has recorded several albums of some wonderful Shabads in light classic ragas. Worth a listen.


Name: Shikra - May 25, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Suman; Yes I do have the recording, and I am in the process of getting together a collection that I think would be enjoyed by visitors of this site and I will send them as soon as I can.


Name: suman - May 25, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   sorry sorry, dont know how the whole message got into bold. nothing is that important.


Name: suman - May 25, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shikra. Do you have a copy of the 'tufail niazi' recordings which you have mentioned? Would I love to have that! If I am not mistaken, in an earlier post you had talked about your large punjabi music collection. I hope you will share any of the gems that you may have. A long time ago I had a lovely old rendition of 'Latthe di Chaadar' by Abida Parveen. Most of the time this song is sung in a pretty ghissa-pita manner but her version was stunning. Any chance that this piece is among your treasures? I have been collecting for about 2 decades now and each time I find some good stuff I send it off to Safir. There are still a few boxes of old tapes that I have to go thru and am hoping to find more treasures. Have you heard Shafqat Ali Khan? (Bawaji, tusi suneya hai ehnaa noon? classical mode vich gaunde ne, kaafi mast if you find the right cd.) suman


Name: Bali K Deol - May 24, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Shikra: I did like it, and thats interesting about Sunny, I've interviewed him as well as Bobby, and didn't know that he had spent much time in the UK. I'd say more about the 'family' at hand, but perhaps I'll write via email, best not to broadcast certain opinions when you never know who you might run into :-))

Bawaji: The shabad 'Mittar Piaare nu' has always been my favourite, its very touching. I have a few recordings of it, including Nusrat's but have not heard the one by Tufail Niazi. I'll try and find it and will let you know if I do.


Name: Safir Rammah - May 24, 2002
E-mail: rammah@ix.netcom.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Bawa Ji: Thanks. Both shahmukhi and Gurmukhi versions of Bagga Singh's poem are posted at: http://apnahome.net/apnaorg/harvardconference/

I am posting the Gurmukhi version here too:


Name: Shikra - May 24, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bawa: There is a wonderful old recording of Tufail Niazi and friends called 'Folk songs of Pakistan' it features some delightful tracks including 'tut gayee tharak karke', 'auon nehria jaan nehria','menoo soda water lehdeh veh roz balmah kehndi' etc


Name: Bawa, - May 24, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Baliji: I forgot to ask you something in the earlier post. When searching for material on Tufail Niazi once, I came across this quote in a column by K. Singh in The Tribune,
(He's talking about Guru Gobind Singh) "His most moving poem written in the depth of despair was hal muridan da kahna mittar pyaarey noon (beautifully rendered by the Pakistani singer, the late Tufail Niazi)."
Am a great fan of Tufail Niazi, and Mittar Pyaare nooN is one of the most beautiful verses, so I would dearly like to hear it. Have you come across this recoeding, or maybe it was a concert? Thanks.


Name: Bawa, - May 24, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Safirji:
It is typed up in Anmol Lipi fonts; I thought I had used them earlier to send to you, but must have made a mistake. You can download them free from several different sites, but I found the one that works the best is this
http://www.sikhnet.com/s/SGGS-Fonts
They get installed on to WORD, and you use them as just another Word font. The keyboard map is also in the same package. Please note that they are designed for a US English keyboard, so that if you are using a Spanish/other English keyboard (like me) you just have to change your Windows setting to the US board.
If you have any problems, queries, please let me know.


Name: Safir Rammah - May 24, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Bawa Ji: Kindly let me know which Gurmukhi font you have used to transilterate Bagga Singh's poem and where can I find this font. Thanks.

Here is Shiv's poem "Wasda Rahe Punjab."


Name: Shikra - May 24, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali: yes I remember 'Likho Punjabi', hope you liked it, I enjoyed singing it, because it actually meant something. But heres a little nostalgia for you, the song was written by Rattan Reehal who taught your namesake Sunny Deol to drive when he was growing up in wolves looong time ago, and even sunny verified in a magazine that it was his driving instructor who first enrolled him into a dance school because he wanted to become an actor( the kid forgot to mention that he was Dharmendra's son). Funny huh?


Name: Bali K. Deol - May 24, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Safir ji pls delete previous post!

Bawaiji, shukriya towada..although I found the poem last night in a book at home, went through 400 pages to find it right at the end :-))

Here is one I thought you may all enjoy!

Song for Peace.

Suneyo ve kalmaaN vaaliyo
Suneyo ve aklaaN vaaliyo
Suneyo ve hunraaN vaaliyo
Hai akh chubi aman dee
Aaiyo ve phookaaN maariyo
Ik dosti te zakhm te
SanjhaaN da logar ban ke
SamiyaaN dee thor peer ke
DudhaaN da shataa maariyo

VehRE asaadi dharat dE
Tareekh toona kar gai
Sehe da taklaa gadd ke
SaahaaN de pattar vadd ke
HadiyaaN de chaul dohal ke
Nafrat dee mauli ban ke
LahoohaaN dee gaagar dhar gayi
Oh saathiyo, oh beliyo
Tehzeeb jeondi mar gayi

Iklaakh dee addi te mur
Vehshat da biseeyar lar gaya
Ithihaas dE ik baab nu
Murke jehar hai chargaya
Sadiyo ve koi maaNdri
SamiyaaN nu dandal peh gai
Sadiyo ve koi jogeeyaa
Dharti nu gash hai pehgai
Sukh ve roTh peer de
PiplaaN nu dhandhaaN kacheeyaaN

Aao ve es barood dee
Varmi te payiye lassiyaaN
Oh dosto, oh Mehramo
Kaanu eh aggaaN macheeyaaN

Haaraa je deshaaN vaaliyo
Haara je kaumaa valiyo
O atomaaN diyo taajro
Barood de vanjaariyo
Haun hor na manukh ser
LahoohaaN da karzaa chaariyo
Hai akh chubi aman dee
Aaiyo ve phookaan maariyo
HaaraaN je kalmaaN vaaliyo
HaaraaN je aklaaN vaaliyo
Haaran je HonraaN vaaliyo

p.s I was reading the very first posts on this forum yesterday, and there is such a feeling of love that emanates from each and every post. A sincere wish to see two halves of a soul joined together again at least in our own hearts if not officially. I suggest certain people on this forum need to spend some time reading those earlier posts. Rabb Rakha!


Name: bawa - May 24, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   To ALL:
I think the song by Shiv that you have written is included in a group of poems that I typed up in Gurmukhi and sent to Safirji: He's waiting for a few more before adding them to the page, and I hope I will be able to do so next week. If it isn't, I will definitely type it up Baliji.
Just a thought: Punjabi nicknames; I wondered if anyone has ever collected them and if there is such affection for putting nicknames to children in any other culture. They are certainly rich, certainly in my family. Is it the same for all APNA members? There was a time when we didn't like using them, but now I do, and anyone unknown can use your given name, but one's nickname immediately brings the person to a different level of relationship.
Apologies for not writing in Punjabi on these posts, but I am Really Terrible at typing Punjabi in the Latin alphabet.
Maybe we could have a competetion for the rarest nickname to lighten up the mood!


Name: Savak - May 24, 2002
E-mail: savvak@hotmail.com
Comments:   i'm glad to know that something is being done somewhere to promote punjabi culture & language. The efforts of the APNA org. are commendable. i 've recently browsed this site and liked it alot. especially the collection of classical punjabi poetry. but its a pity that i & many others like me cannot understand mush of the difficult vocabulary used in them. i suggest that the APNA should make the punjabi dicitonary available ( in both scripts ) or the meanings of a list of difficult words. that would improve the readers vocab. moreover online learning lessons esp the script will be intrumental in futhering the cause of punjabi litercay. i would appreciate alot if these suggestions are considered. thankyou.


Name: Zahra - May 24, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   DB: Thanks for your song. Recently, I ran into two senior sikh gentleman at a gathering. On further exchange of pleasantries the current situation was brought up. Of course, by me. One started telling me the cons...I asked did you mention these cons to the media and others. He routed me to the other fellow who was visiting from India and happened to be a government official. He was so full of love and compassion for Pakistan that I asked, "would the clouds of war will last any longer?" He said, "this time will pass too." I do not know if it was asking a kid not to worry or telling an adult that it's part of the tactics that governments play or it was nothing. But I re-emphasized a few times: we should not go for war, no matter what happens. And he said, "assee ik jee nae tae kyoun war shaur which parun gae."

MTM: My request to you was not in any sarcastic stride. It was to wake people up who are on another planet. I am glad that DB fulfilled my request and saved you from the kusht.
SS: Thank you for the time and effort you invested in jotting down your complimentary note. I must mention it was truly appreciated. Kindly do care to frequent this site and enlighten the readers with your maha vichaar more often. There are ginnae' chunae' hazrat who care to write here. Some are interesting, some are full of wisdom, whereas some are completely boring. So, that's part of life, I guess.


Name: Bali - May 23, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Shukriyaa towada Shikra ji, actually aaj mein sun rahi see ik geet...Likho Punjabi, ParHo Punjabi, Vich Punjabi gal Karo,.....sound familiar?? ;-) Sunaavangee SWARAJ dee duniya nu, kitte ohnaaN nu vee eho jahe geet sunke mere vaang akal aa jaave. Kee khyaal e towada??


Name: Shikra - May 23, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji: Jata Jaag has been recorded by yours truely, (you know what I am talking about). I will send you a copy with the other songs I promised.


Name: Bali - May 23, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dullabhatti & Shikra: Do you know from which book that poem is in? I'll be better geting the pronouncitaion right if I read it in Gurmukhi..shukriya.


Name: Shikra - May 23, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Thank you DB, saves me the trouble I forgot we dont get wysiwyg on this page.


Name: Bali K Deol - May 23, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dullabhatti ji and Saleem: I echo your sentiments. Aaj tak paraaheeyaaN maavaaN vaaste PunjabiaaN ne apni qurbaaniaN dittiaaN, aaj phir 'Maut' de naaRE lag rahe a, sirf puraahee maa enee bedardi de naal apne puttraaN te dheeyaaN dee baali chaRaa sakdi a. Please lets all pray for peace. Rather than songs of war, how about we sing Hans Raj's song...Eh Punjab vee mera e, Oh Punjab vee mera e...eh Satluj vee mera e, oh Chenab vee mera e..haaraan jism mere de dovaiN tukde jor diyo, eh hataa thor diyo, sarhataa tor diyo.........Punjab Mere Rahe Vasda


Name: Dullabhatti - May 23, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   >b>tere vehray wich phirday ne naag

wah Shiv wah...ehh naag saadi kull da bee naas karn lai apnian fannaN chukki khaRhe ne.


Name: DullaBhatti - May 23, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shikra ji, I am taking the liberty to repost it.

Jata jaag oh shera jaag,
oh tera vas da raheh Punjab

Agg loun koi tere ghiddian nu agiya
sapa diya peenga tere piplaN teh paagiya
tarinjna'ch kath di da roop koi khaah giya
tere vehreh vich firdeh neh naag
Jata jaag oh shera jaag

Khoh ke nah leh jaan fehr kithe honia
mawa diya lohrian teh nouhan diyan doniyan
pehna diyan chuniya te veeran diya gordiyan
kithe luteh na jaan suhaag
jata jaag oh shera jaag

sohn tenoo lageh tere jallian de bagh di
sohn tenoo Udham, Sarabhia de khaab di
rakhni hai shaan biba tuhio hi Punjabi
tere khirh de rehan gulab
v Jata jaag oh shera jaag,
tera vas da reheh oh Punjab.


Name: Shikra - May 23, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Heres a song penned by Shiv Kumar Batalvi on Punjab itself. Jata jaag oh shera jaag, tera vas da raheh oh Punjab Agg loun koi tere ghiddian nu agiya sapa diya peenga tere pila teh paagiya tharinjna'ch kath di roop koi khaah giya tere verdeh vich firdeh neh naag Jata jaag oh shera jaag Koh keh nah leh jaan fehr kithe honia mawa diya lohrian teh nouhan diyan doniyan pehna diyan chuniya te veeran diya gordiyan kithe luteh na jaan suhag jata jaag oh shera jaag sohn tenoo lageh tere jallian de bagh di sohn tenoo Udham Sarabhia de khaab di rakhni hai shaan biba tuhio hi Punjabi tere kirdh de rehan gulab Jata jaag oh shera jaag, tera vas da reheh oh Punjab. Lets pray for peace. rab rakha


Name: DullaBhatti - May 23, 2002
E-mail: Dulalbhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra, can you name few Punjabi characters in the present scenario who are imposing this war on both sides? Yes Punjabis will fight and die on other people's directions and war again like we have been doing it always. This is not our war.

I did not want to disappoint you so here is a Punjabi War song, hope you like it. From the wording it sounds like it is composed by a Punjabi Muslim mother whose son is gone away to fight the WWII(another fought by us for others).

maavaN de sabh bachRay(bachay) shala pardes.
mere bachRayO ve, maulla laam(war) taroRay ne.
panj-tan rakha ne, Rabb khaireeN moRhay ne.

baajray de daanay, veer jawani maanay.
mere murshid tooN laamaN(Wars) di sullaa(agreement) karaa.
faujaN(armies) hussaR gaiyeaN(tired) jahaaz kinaaray laa.
aa jaavay Alla annainay(Niyaanay,kids), maaN Bismillah karay ne.
mere murshid tooN faujaN di sulla kara.

SahibaN(daughter-in-laws name),paa chikknay da sohna cholla.
bachay milasi khaireeN Rabb Maula.
Rabb bhalla karay shaalla munshi tainda.
Rabb bachRa milaavay shaalla mainda.
aa vaRheyoN ve puttra bahungroN.
maaN Bissmilla kraindee khaireeN anderoN.
Maulla sada hunn dahDa fazal kraisee,
maavaN de sabh bachRay Rabba pardesi.

kunni(tauRi,earthren pot) vich rijhdi kheer.
khaireeN aavan bhehna de sohnay veer.
murshid laamaN di sulla kara....

bachay mere khaireeN peeraN de gawaaNdi,
ghar aavan te laggay abaadi(raunak)....
tusi aasO ve kehRay khRay rahiN.
deeva baal dharaN raatiN khaanqahiN....
ghar ghar balday khaireeN deevay.
shaalla saiN SahibaN da khaireeN jeevay.
murshid ve, laamaN di sullaa karaa


Name: Yasmin - May 23, 2002
E-mail: yasmin@gulabo.u-net.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Just a little note! I couldn't agree more with Saleem Sahib's comments. We should be promoting peace not War.


Name: Saleem Ashgar - May 23, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Location: LA,      USA
Comments:   Zahra, Dissapointed to read your last posting. What is bahind your sarcasm? What is the purpose of your sarcastic invitation to others to sing Punjabi War songs in this heated atmosphere between India and Pakistan? We should condemn all those who are singing war songs instead of encouraging them or inviting others to sing. It is understandable if you are not happy that you are no longer able to talk about politics here or tell your boring stories. That doesn't give you the right to joke about "Chitta Kukar Banaerae Tae" Or "Tappayaan Dee Vari Aye" Or "Sun Vunjali Dee Mithri Taan Vae Main Taa Ho Ho Gayee Qurbaan Vae." They are much better and relevant for a Punjabi than "Mary has a little lamb .." or other songs that you learned and admired in your English school. These Punjabi songs and tappes belong to our common people in Punjab whom you are probably used to look down upon. It is OK if you have been laughing at them in the high company of your friends but be careful about laughing at them here. I have been reading the postings on this forum for long time and can't understand why you write here when you display no love or respect for Punjabi language and culture.


Name: Zahra - May 23, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   MTM: Sorry I did not mean Doha. I meant Noha Khawani. I do not remember what Doha is or was.

On another note, this forum should be singing Punjabi War Geets(ANY TAKERS?)than remembering:
~~ Chitta Kukar Banaerae Tae... Or

Tappayaan Dee Vari Aye... Or

Sun Vunjali Dee Mithri Taan Vae Main Taa Ho Ho Gayee Qurbaan Vae...
Any thoughts around that from poets, kalakaar hazrat, ahlae'danish and jahan shanas?


Name: Bali - May 23, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Can anyone please enlighten me on the origins of the folk stories 'Inder Bego' and 'Kima Malki'

Perhaps who they were written by, any details of the stories themselves, the only info I have is from hearing them sung as 'KaliyaaN' by the likess of Kuldip Manak.

Anything you can tell me would be useful.


Name: mistah_kurtz - May 23, 2002
E-mail: mistah_kurtz78@hotmail.com
Comments:   Hello I am looking for Shiv Kumar Batalvi's poetry translated to english. I understand the shortcomings of the english language when it comes to the translation of the various South asian languages but anything would be helpful. Thank you.


Name: Bali - May 22, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   MTM Ji, bahut khoob likhiya e tussaN ne. Ik geet da yaad aa gaya, jehra saade Sameer veer ji nu bahut pasand see (btw where is he, he's been gone from here 2 months). Geet hai Satwinder Bugga da, called ChiRDI WatnaaN de Gal, Seene Machee Hal Chal. Aap te oh Punjab hee rehanda e, lekin jinna ohdi awaaz vich dard e, lagda jiven vakeyai koi Pardesi ga riha hove.


Name: Shikra - May 22, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra: I agree with you wholeheartedly, so no offence meant and none taken.


Name: Zahra - May 22, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Shikra: I do not want to engage in a behes barai behes therefore I will step back. Laiken, voicing an opinion is a right of all the individuals(chotae', burae', buzurg, guys, gals, children, adults, naive and immatures...)I am also on this list somewhere hopefully. So, it should not be a big deal. I sense a biased mindset. Then, I can be wrong as well due to my oversensitive and territorial nature :) Happy Reading :)


Name: Zahra - May 22, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   MTM: It was a nice poem. But it sounded more like a doha than served to lighten the mood :) By the way, lightening the mood has its own connotations :) So, I can be wrong.


Name: Shikra - May 22, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra: Please stop being childish and stop giving everyone ultimatums, you have voiced your opinion for the past year or so on this page and criticised others so stop whining just because others disagree with you on certain topics. I dont think anyone would argue with your schools program and you jolly well know that, but if you had posted something about regional pakistani politics I for one would have not been happy, especially after the discussion forum heading color has changed to a nice green to make everyone aware. of its contents. God Bless


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 22, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   To lighten the moods

BaiThaaN Pardais Wich.....

Chun KolooN Dor WaaN MaiN TarayAaN Tou Dor
Dil DayAaN SachayAaN SaharayAaN Tou Dor
WatnaaN Day SohnayAaN NazarayAaN Tou Dor
BaiThaaN Pardais Wich SaarayAaN TouN Dor

Din We Nay Kalla Aithay RataaN Wee Nay KalliaN
AsaaN Tay UmeedaaN Wich UmraaN NaiN DhaliaN
SajnaaN De SourtaaN NaiN AkhaaN Agay KhaliaN
KinniyaaN Hee AgaaN Sahday Dil Wich BalliaaN

RondiaaN Ee Langay Vaila PiyarayAaN Tou Dor
BaiThaaN Pardais Wich SaarayAaN TouN Dor

LoRaaN HawalataaN Aithay AsseeN Hawalati
ChiThiaN He HondiaN Nay Aithay Mulakati
ChiThiaN He Sungi Aithay ChiThiaN He Saathi
ChiThiaN De Taang Wich Phas Gayee Hayati

Keta MajbooriAaN ChubarayAaN TouN Dor
BaiThaaN Pardais Wich SaarayAaN TouN Dor


Name: Zahra - May 22, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear Readers: Please don't read, pay attention or care to browse through the following post if you are a constant whiner. If you are not, still it is your prerogative to look into the following program or skip.
Here is the URL for "Adopt a School Program."
I will be leading an effort to raise funds.
My belief is to invest in individuals as they are the ones who make or break the world.
www.itacec.org
Let me know if you are interested in participating in this effort.
Thanks, Zahra
PS: This is a related subject - it is the lack of education and awareness that has driven our society nuts and left it with nothing. If my post is touched in a wrong manner by anyone or critcized for any reason, I will "NEVER" post on this board again. Thank you for your patience. Yes, I am being oversensitive. And I am.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - May 21, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   MTM ji
ho gya.Aj toon baad nahi nazar away ga twanoo ay slogan.Aapan nawan bana lenay aan kehRa koi kharcha hona ay.Hor koi hukam jnaab??

Khush Rahwo Te Khush Rakho


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 21, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sajid Jee: I did not talk about your post but about your smoking slogan which is to me a BAD TASTE JOKE if you consider it that way. I request you to please remove it. This is merely a humble request. Thanks & Regards


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - May 21, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   MTM ji main aik wari fair aik wari apni posting paRhi ay te menoo koi gal aysi nazar nahi aai jeHday naal kisay ve dost de Dharam di tazheek hovay.main pehlay ve araz keeti si keh oh te main avain e bethian bethian likh maari.Je kisay beli noo ve meri wajah naal takleef hue te main jnaab hath joR ka muaafi mangda waan.Muaaf Ker diyo. Aggay toon aysi koi gal nahi hoe gi.
Dull Bhatti ji kiddan? Tusi aaye nahi
BooHa KhaRkya DaRkya kaee waari main samjhya asar dua kar gaee Booha kholya te DULLA ji koi nahi si saDay naal mazaq hawa kar gaee
Chalo aseen te aas laa kay bethay e aan na ji, jadon aao sir mathay te. Rabb Rakha

<Smoking is bad; but not always***


Name: Zahra - May 21, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Shikra: I disagree with your interpretation, no matter how unique it may be. On the one end, you are adamant to impose your understanding; whereas, on the other end, you do not want to give the other person the same privilege. That's unfair. I do not give a damn what any joke states and conveys. I have never been a fan. That pretty much sums up my interest on jokes. Well, being a participant on this board, I can raise a hue and cry(go nuts)like many are and have been, and sing: what rubbish is being posted on this board in the garb of sharing cultural nuances. I did not do that, as I care less about such fluffy stuff - I SKIP! I suggest subscribing to jokes a day won't be a bad idea for those who are keen readers of Jokes. I am not and I do not want to see any jokes on this board. How's that for an attitude? Cool? Good? Bad? Or Obnoxious? Please care to contemplate. Also, do not jot down a response first and think afterwards. Regards.


Name: Shikra - May 21, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali: Hanji bul kul theek!!!! I got your e-mail, hope u got mine.


Name: Bali K. Deol - May 21, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Shikra ji, hanji it is the right address, pata nahi towadi email kyon nee ayi, lekin I have sent you an email, so perhaps that will help...theek?


Name: Shikra - May 21, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Thank you Suman and Bali for your advice on the Rumi book I will try and obtain a copy soon. It sounds just like what I have been looking for. Bali I have been trying to e-mail you on your address without any luck, are you sure thats the correct spelling? Theres just something I wanted to discuss with you that I felt would be a little boring for the rest of our friends here, (dont worry its nothing serious).


Name: Bali K Deol - May 21, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   btw: Shikra ji, I have also see the book Suman mentioned, it was really beautiful. There are also is a little collection of beautifully illustrated cards that comes with illustrations on one side, a poem of his on the other and a book which in detail offers an interpretation of the poem...its a beautiful concept..I hope you decide to go ahead with it.


Name: Bali K Deol - May 21, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Are we not getting a little carried away with censorship here? I agree with the red note at the top, but I found Sajid's post to be a delightful read, it was supposed to be humourous. I'm also a Sikh, and I'm sure he is well aware of the health dangers, as becomes quite evident when he pokes fun at himself in his post. I'm also quite certain that his post is not going to turn us all into chain smoking hobo's.

Sajid ji, jeeonde raho ji, te sanu vee hasaaye jao, aap vee haasde vaasde raho...

How about we just lighten up a little...nukta cheeni karnE nu sab tiaar hogayE, koi mere joke te hassiya vee nahi...c'mon guys and girls enaa maara vee nahi see..


Name: Shikra - May 21, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra: As I have said before on numerous occasions, there is a time and place for everything, sorry to say but this seems to be the wrong site for discussing Pakistani regional politics, surely there must be another site devoted to mishaps, corruptions and attrocities that you have been discussing here for the past few months. True you are right when you say we dont have to read it if we dont want to, but you of all people know that that is near impossible. So I beg you again to keep the posts in line with as much to do with punjabiat as possible. As A Sikh I could go on about a million problems that we have faced in the last 500 years but I trust you all know enough without me ramming my peoples problems down your learned throats. RAB RAAKAH


Name: Zahra - May 21, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Shikra: You are partially wrong in your note. As a reader, I do not see what Imran has posted as a "tactic." Also, I am seeing a trend on this board that I am not very fond of. If you do not like to see or read something you do not have to. No one has put a gun on your head and asked you to read the holy stuff over here. I personally do not read each and every one and I am not obligated to. I think if an attempt is being made to route this discussion board to the "right path" whatever that may be, that right path can have different interpretation for all. A joke that may be liked by 3 people on this board may be abhorred by 1 person. Then? Shall that one person come forth and tell the rest of the group that you guys are stating mere jargon and have nothing else to do apparently. Would that be better? Or ignorning that nonsense will be preferable? In other words, "Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so." But...that thinking is "relative thinking." Hope my convoluted note makes sense.


Name: Shikra - May 21, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   I agree with MTM, Sajids smoking comments are childish and unhealthy to say the least. REMEMBER SAJID SMOKING CAN DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH AND YOUR WEALTH!!!


Name: Shikra - May 21, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran Ahmed.... your shock tactics fail to impress me, there are a million atrocities around the world that arent right. Please dont use your photos to educate us, we all have our own problems and incidents that personally annoy us. We all try and do our best to improve on what we can and I humbally suggest u do the same without shoving whats dear to u down our throats.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 21, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Safir Jee: Waisay tay tussi laal rangaaN wich likhaya aay kay dharm baray gal nai honi chahi di lakin tusi sajid jee da smoking baray nara edit nai karday ... hor kujh nai tay sikh dharm day ehtram wich eee sahi.......assee ik dujay da maan nai karaaN gay tay dujayaaN kolooN ki twaqoo kar saknay aaaN............Rabb Wali


Name: malang - May 21, 2002
E-mail: frawthydog@yahoo.com
Location: Brooklyn, NY     USA
Comments:   salaam, sub nooN salaam... do gallaN: 1. punjabi sikhan waste koi changi jee kitab ay? mere kul malik book depot di urdu punjiabi bol chaal ay, lekin meiN aur kitabaaN lab riyaN naaN..... 2. punjabi ich koi jed-o-jehad di shairi, ganay, wagheira wagheira.....gareebaN di jedojahad te.....


Name: malang - May 21, 2002
E-mail: frawthydog@yahoo.com
Location: Brooklyn, NY     USA
Comments:   salaam, sub nooN salaam... do gallaN: 1. punjabi sikhan waste koi changi jee kitab ay? mere kul malik book depot di urdu punjiabi bol chaal ay, lekin meiN aur kitabaaN lab riyaN naaN..... 2. punjabi ich koi jed-o-jehad di shairi, ganay, wagheira wagheira.....gareebaN di jedojahad te.....


Name: suman - May 21, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shikra. Your idea is a very good one. A book on Rumi was published in the same format ie. his poetry in Persian, the translation in English (by Coleman Barks I think) and very imaginative paintings as well. You may want to take a look at the book. I hope you will continue to explore the idea and wish you good luck.


Name: Bali K Deol - May 21, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   :-))Mein kiha mangalvaar de din zara hass lain saadi Apni family, pls no gender stereotypes analytical arguments....its a joke...

Ik din ik pati patni da chagRaa hogaya, raat nu ik dooje naal naraaz gusse sauN gaye. Sooba pati utheya te akhbaaR chak ke baahar verandeh te aake beh gaya...patni ayi ohdi te boli 'A lao ji mein kiha chaa pee lavo'

Maure oh bara aukha jiha boliya, kehnda "Sahmne Mez piya, ehde te rakh de"

Oh mez te chaa da cup rakhan lagi te ohdi nazar ik chirri, chirre te pehgai, kehndi "Dekho ji, chirri, chirra kinniaN mithiaaN mithiaaN piaariyaaN gallaN karde ne, tusi vee kuch sikh lavo"

Pati gusse vich utheya, akhbaar chak ke mez te maariya, te chaa shad ke chalagaya naukri te..

Shaam nu aaya, bina bole phir chup chaap sauN gaya, saver nu phir utheyaa, pehla vaang akhbaaR chakiya te verandeh te phir nikulgaya. Patni ohdi phir ayi te kehndi 'lao ji chaa peelo'......agge vaang oh phir daabak ke kehnda,'Mez disda mauRE, ehde de rakh nee sakdi'

Oh vee khijdi khijdi rakhan lagi te ik vaar phir ohnu chirri, chirra dispE, boli, "Lao ji aaj phir vekhlo, chirra aaj phir chirri nu laike baithaa, ohde naal pyaar naal gallan karda baitha...aaj hee kuch sikh lavo akal enaa toN tusi"

Pati ne upar nu vekhiya te kehnda "bhaagwaane, akhaN khol ke vekh, chirra taan ohee hai, eh chirri kal vaali nee hai"

Umeed a ki kise nu te hassa aaya hao, je nahi te zara dimaag de pech tillE karke vekho hazoor.


Name: Bawa, - May 21, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   APNA: I will comments on the photo posting to other people of this forum.
BAGGA: I have actually started typing up the book: as I said most parts of the book are more suitable to a page on Sikhism, bit the opening chapters and some extracts are very rich on observation of punjabi life and people's and could be relevant here. Scanning could be easier, but in the end the test is always less useful to manage, and the footnotes (BARHE LAMBE CHAURE NEIN!) come out pretty bad etc. So as soon as I have enough to strat with (something that has substance) will send it to APNA.
Add my voice to all those trying to put the APNA discussion back on track, DB: enjoyed reading your posts!


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 21, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

A Punjabi (Cholistan, South Punjab) drought victim...

Faraz,

I had few things to say about Thal Canal and other water projects vital to feeding the burgeoning population of Pakistan, which are hostage to the short-sightedness of self-serving regionalists. But I guess, I will have to hold my thoughts, as they have been deemed inappropiate for the forum. Sade matt jo bhare ne "maxi" kanak naal. Khair koi gal naeN, It was nice interacting with you. Hope you didn't mind my frankness too much...

Regards


Name: Dullabhatti - May 21, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sajid yaar, kall nu tuhade darshan hon'ge je Rabb ne chaheya. roTi paani khake tiyar rehna:)..babay Microsoft wali khoohi te milaNge)
oh and Hazara singh ramta...yaar barha rangla banda ay,...ajjkall Toronto Canada rehnda ay. nikkay hunday ohda "ramta maimaN wich" gaunday hunday si....ossay ne phasaye aan, aithey pardes ch;).


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - May 21, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Suman Ji
BaDi Khushi hoee keh tusi mere khyalaN noo samajhiya te Zahra Ji di confusion door keeti. Main te mahol noon zara halka phulka kar rya si. Rabb Twaano sada khush rakhay. Main ay saray emotions chat de vich add keetay si te othaon e ayna noo use ker ray waan.Tusi ve kar lya karo menoo te ehna emotions noo koi aitraaz nahi hovay ga
Main aik vaari aik kitab parhi si Sardar Hazara Singh Ramta Di.Badi pasand aai si menoo.Par oh kisay sajjan di si te ohday kolon gwaach gaee.Hun main kafi koshish keeti par menoo labhi nahi.Je kisay sajjan kol hovay te mehar bani kar kay menoo dass devay.Te mazay di gal ay si keh mainoo pata e nahi si keh Sardar ji mere e shehar de rehan walay si.Jadon menoo pata lagga te mere kol oh kitab nahi ay.Je koi dass devay keh kithon labhay gi te main bada e shukar guzar hovan ga.

Dulla Bhatti Ji Tusi kider gawach gaye o aik waari darshan de kay.Je koi ghalti ho gaee ay sarkaar te muaaf kar diyo. Te wapis aa jao kuch nahi kehya jaye ga twanoo.
Rabb Rakha


***Smoking is bad;But not always***


Name: DullaBhatti - May 21, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rammah ji, bass thorha honsla rakho..Babu Rajab Ali te Dr Harbhajjan singh aa rahe ne.

Amrita Pritam was attending, what was a mostly, Urdu Mushaihra and Sardar Harminder Singh Bedi was conducting the mushaira. When he invited Amrita to read her poem he said "hunn main Amrita Pritam nu guzarish karaNga ke oh koi chondi chondi jihi Punjabi nazam sunaan". Amrita did not like his characterization..andray ander ball uThi...when she came to the microphone she said " bedi sahib Punjabi nazam mach'di mach'di hundi ay chondi chondi nai..zara abch ke rehna".


Name: suman - May 20, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   sajid ji. can i get the yellow hello fellow and the happy blue guy? any other cheerful ideas?


Name: Shikra - May 20, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   I just wanted some feedback on an idea I have had for sometime so I would appreciate any ideas or views from everyone who visits this site. I am a keen artist (Painter) and after listening to the likes of Baba Bulleh Shah since my childhood I have always had images of the verses as pictures in my mind. I have always looked forward to seeing his life being portrayed in a movie or documentary but this hasnt as yet materialised. I had the idea of working on a book with some gurmukhi, shahmukhi, roman and even some translations into english of Bulleh Shahs work together with paintings and illustrations of the events in his life and also of his writings. What do you think?


Name: suman - May 20, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   o come on zahra! surely you cannot read sajids post and not realize that only a dyed in the wool punjabi would have such a hilarious view toward smoking and express it in such delightful language. It is a wonderful reminder of a typical and admirable punjabi quality, and one that people with shrill voices and harsh views most particularly need. Thus does it connect with punjabi culture. so there.


Name: Zahra - May 20, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   APNA Moderator: Is the current ongoing discussion related to Punjabi Language or Literature ? The exchange of ideas over the weekend was harsh and a little off the main subject but it had substance!


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - May 20, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Suman Ji
Shukriye wali kehDi gal ay ay te mera job ay ji.Main te intzaar karda rehna waan keh koi hor hukam ve karo te khadam oh poora karay.Je MaaN Boli di sewa nahi karni te saday kam da ki faida?? te dooji gal jehDi tusi kahi ay oh te rehan e diyo na ji.aik te ay apna special note ay har posting te zara show shaw laee. te dooja je 3" di cig 6' de banday noo mardi ay te ohnoo wesay e sharam naal mar jana chai da ya >
Te dooji gal ay keh saray kehnday aa keh cig aik beemari ay main ve ayho e kehna waaN aysay laee main aynoo pi pi kay mukan di koshish vich aan.
Te teeji gal ay keh cig de baray faiday aa.JehrDay hohat saray loki jan dey aa te kaee nahi ve jan dey ohna noo main dass dena waan.
1- cig peen wala kadi ve buddha nahi hunda
2- Ohday ghar chor nahi aunday
3- Ohday kolon koi udhaar nahi mangda
Reasons 1- Cig peen wala budha nahi hunda kiyun keh budha hon di nobat e nahi aundi te pehlay e ...........
2- Saari raat khangda rehnda ay chor samajhday aa keh hajay jaag rya ay . Bach gay naaaaa
3- Vachara aap ays halat noo pohanch janda ay keh doojiyan kolon mangda phiray oos kolon kisay ki mangna ay....

baqi gallan agli wari
Rabb twanoo saryan noo khush rakhay te hasday khaid dey rawo te naal mere navain project SAIFUL MALOOK te ve nazar maar lena


Name: suman - May 20, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sajid ji. Thank you for fixing the problem - always appreciate your work. magar janaab, smoking is always bad. Agar tusi kade kisi smoke karan vaale de lungs vekh sako, taan shock de maare sir phadd ke othe hi baih jaoge.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - May 20, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Sajno te Mitro
Lo ji hun te Rammah Jee ne Laal harfaaN Naal likh ditta ay keh jehRa kamm tusi lokaN ne phaDya si ohnoo chadd diyo te ais forum noo punjabi waastay e rehan diyo.Saaray bailee tangg aaye hoye aa je aakho te zaati tor te minnaT ve ker lainay aan keh hun bass ker jao te payar muhabbat naal rawo.Aik te mere wargay AnpaDh log wesay e aukhay aukhay lafzaan toon chaloo si utton tusi GooDhi jahi Angrezi maar maar kay te maghZ pola ker chaDya ay te aiwain e KukDaN taraN ladee janday o Na koi Gall Na Baat.Oye Bholiyo badshao Hasso khaiDoo te GallaN baataN karo.


***Smoking is bad; But not always***


Name: Yasmin - May 20, 2002
E-mail: yasmin@gulabo.u-net.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Please Please let this fourm be light harted and readable. I used to visit this site nearly ever day BUT!!! now the long potitical arguments puts me off straght away. So go easy on some one like me who has limited time and would like to utilise it better.


Name: Shikra - May 19, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Come on you guys you're boring the ass off us!!! The majority of us visit this site to read about Punjabiat, not about Pakistani provinces, politics and other such gibberish. PLEASE CAN WE GET BACK ON TRACK!!!!!!!!


Name: Bali - May 19, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   zahra: I enjoyed your post...especially the little story about the bird at the end. These days many people like to take a introspective look at themselves and their behavioural tendencies...we do it as to be able to improve ..so it makes natural sense to extend that same 'look in the mirror' to that which we are also part of, our culture, our country and our world.


Name: Safir Rammah - May 19, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Saeed Farani: It appears that you are not getting my e-mails. The last one I sent you was regarding setting up a new e-mail account for you. Let me know if you have a picture of Sultan Bahu or if you know where can I get one. Thanks.


Name: Jaswal - May 19, 2002
E-mail: gqrajput@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Imran, mittara, kyon evi vaadu de pange lenda? punjabi da forum ah te punjabiat diya galla kar. I admire your nationalistic spirit, but this is not the place to discuss it.

Administrators need to define certain clear rules and provide a link to them at top of the page. I see that Imran's postings were removed, but why are Bali's still on? She called him a bigot in one message and tells him to 'get a life' in another. These messages are just as inappropriate as whatever Imran said. Why is Bali getting special treatment? Why weren't her messages removed? Or is it that certain people get special treatment from our dear administrators...


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 19, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Jaswal Ji, Sajjan chaaR la ke ta nahin behnde na ji. I am sorry sir, if the reality makes you sick. It makes me sick as well. I don't think it's rational to hound the nation of Pakistan (or any other for that matter) for the actions of stateless renegades. Kiyon? Regards


Name: Dr. Javed Zaki - May 18, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sajno Ik 'Kaafi' da chuss lao.

Ni saade pind vanjaare aae
Hoaka daiNde ramzaaN waala
Saade munn nooN bhaae
...Ni saade pind vanjaare aae

Har pall menooN dhaRka ligya
Ji na jaave mira Thugya
KehRa niyooN de bhaar UThaae
...Ni saade pind vanjaare aae

ChaRh chaRh koThe kaag odaa-vaaN
GalyaaN de vich jhaati-yaaN paavaaN
Khowre koi phhira paae
...Ni saade pind vanjaare aae

Waa vagdi te booha khaRke
Darr jaani aaN dil mera dhaRke
Vanjaara na hovay haae
...Ni saade pind vanjaare aae

Vanjaare ne kal Tur jaana
SanooN taNgh siyaapa paana
Saada kujh kar cha ni maae
...Ni saade pind vanjaare aae
...Hoaka dainde ramzaaN waala
...Saade munn nooN bhaae


Name: DullaBhatti - May 18, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rammah ji, very good article. Thanks for the link.

Jaswal ji di farmaish te...One day Ustaad Daaman hired a Tanga to go somewhere and as they were in Lahore he asked Tangaywala to go a certain street...Tangaywala said, janaab this is one way road and policeman is standing right there, we should not do that. Daman told him to go to the policewala "jaa pulsiye nu keh ke Tangay wich Bholay pehalwaan da piyo baiTha ay"...Tangay wala went to the policeman and told him so. Policeman said "oh main Bholay pehalwaan de piyoN nu jaan'na vaaN..wapis muRh jaa eh te koi hor ay tere Tangay wich"... Tangaywala came back and told his reply to Ustaad Daaman..Ustaad Daaman, hazir jawaab as he was, said " oye bewqoof ay tera pulsiya...ohnu ki pata aidda waDDa pehalwaan kitay ikko piyoN naal bann janda ay".

Ustaad Daaman de jawaab wich ikk baRhi gujhi gall si...if pehwalan has to become pehalwaan only from his father's kichten he won't...usually pehalwaans have sarprasti of many elderly fans.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 18, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   babaji tou mazrat day naal keyoun kay ohnaa di hukam aduli ho rahi aay

……………..Tay Chhadoo Rang BaziaN

GallaaN MithiaN Karoo Tay Nallay TaziaN
Kadoo Dil ChoN KadorataaN Wee SariaaN
Jind Chhoti Jai KeyuN VayraN Ch Gawanday Oo
ParaaN Sotoo Tusi Apsi NaraaziaaN
……………..Tay Chhadoo Rang BaziaN
Rabb Diti Aay Hayati Kissay Kum Layee
TusaaN Rakh Chhadi Roun Layee Tay Ghum Layee
RalMill Kay Jay Wand Loo PasouRiaN
Kee Karnaa Phair Aa Kay Wich QaziaaN
……………..Tay Chhadoo Rang BaziaN
Has Khaydan Ich Kahdi Majbori Aay
Kithou Jaa Kay Aydi Layni Manzouri Aay
Kahnoo SaRday SaRaNday Oo HayatiaN
Karoo Ik Dojay DiaaN DamsaziaaN
……………..Tay Chhadoo Rang BaziaN
Jind TamiaaN Day Wich Jaa Phasayee Jay
AynaaN TamiaaN Day Wich Tay LaRaee Jay
Kathaa Karday Oo Duniya Jahaan NouN
Tuhanoo LabniaaN GazaaN Ch AraaziaaN
……………..Tay Chhadoo Rang BaziaN


Name: Safir Rammah - May 18, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Friends: Sunday edition of the Dawn, a leading English newspaper in Pakistan, has carried an article by me on the history and current state of Punjabi and Punjabi's in North America. My thanks to Bali and Dullah Bhatti for providing the background information for this piece. (Lady B's well-deserved fame has now reached the far corners of Pakistan!) You may review the article at the following URL:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books6.htm


Name: Bali - May 18, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:  

Bahut khoob Mahmud ji


Name: Bali - May 18, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   .....

Hun hai kitthe labna bhagwaan mere dosta
Bandiya ch labda nahi insaan mere dosta
KhaRE kad ho jani zindagi di shaam mere dosta
Ishq nu ishq hi rehan de, aish na likh mere dosta
Vech na deveeN vekheeN emaan mere dosta
Nafrat bhari lokaaN ch pyaar di sugaat wand mere dosta
Tu bhi kar kuch lokaaN te ehsaan mere dosta
Eh theek hai duniya vich pyaar hi sab kuch nahi
Phir ashiq kyun hunde rahe kurbaan mere dosta


Name: Mahmud Fahim - May 18, 2002
E-mail: kakka@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dr. Mohin Singh horaN di nazam Rabb

rabb ikk gunjhaldaar bujhaarat,

Rabb ikk gorakh dhanda.

kholan laggeyaN paich eiss de,

kaafir ho jaye banda.

kaafir honoN dar ke jeeweiN?

khojoN mool na khuNjhiN,

layee-lagg momin de kolloN,

khoji kaafir changa.


Name: Jaswal - May 18, 2002
E-mail: gqrajput@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Can somebody post a nice Punjabi poem or something? All these discussions about enemies from across the border and what not are starting to make me sick!! How about another excerpt from that novel Bhubbal?


Name: Zahra - May 18, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   I have to state this incident in order to clarify my perspective: So, here is a friend from one of my networks who showed interest in getting together as she was in town. I took her out for a nice lunch. As we sat down this lady went nuts about all regional stuff and laid all the blame on Punajbis. She was from KHI and her parents had migrated from Bihar. This is hardly 3-4 years back. I was not sure of what I was hearing. I was never exposed to such mindset. I told myself to listen and I did. I heard such rubbish practices that I could not imagine that KHI was part of Pakistan, specially the kind of scenarios I heard. The strangest one was that their cars will be checked before they entered their university as well as left the premises. We both had engineering background and were sharing our respective university education experiences. In my heart and heart, I was not sure if this person hated my ethnicity or what. I did not even know that people from certain color complexion hailed from Bihar or some part of India. I always took people based on my interactions with them. I would like to continue the practice, otherwise how will I form an opinion. By hearsay?? So, in an hour's lunch, I heard punjab and punjabis being made responsible for each and everything on the face of earth(it's not a strecth). After hearing the girya-o-zari, I very innocently inquired: "It appears that there is no one else alive and breathing in khi to be held responsible for their circumstances except for punjabis?"[I have hardly been to that city 4-5 times in my life and have no desire to go there again.]On my very genuine query my friend's realistic side woke up and she admitted the irresponisble one's irresponsible behavior. Her own family was in civil services and there was a lot of sensitivity around the fact that her parents ended up leaving their lands and assets in Bihar. I had never engaged myself in such an open conversation with anyone around this issue in my life. Well, I never had the need, desire as well as awareness. Across the table, I felt as I was involved in all those bad things that she was blaming punjabies and punjab for. In my heart and heart, I was asking myself that what have I done and why am I being told all these atrocities. Well, if I reflect on my experience then I would say both of us had our own perspective and perception. We had to talk it out and express in order to let the other side know where we were coming from. She did a very good job. I did not, because of my lack of awareness. We had a very nice rest of the day. She has been an open and good friend; and an extremely talented professional who I respect. But that experience was not a very comfortable experience for a naive person like me who was used to being friends with all without realizing their inner prejudices. As a result, I ended up nursing a bias against this biased thought process. And, I am very open and straightfoward about it because I always try to rise above that. Am I 100% successful? No. Well, it's already so damn demanding to be human, thinking of treading the path where angels take a cosy nap, is asking too much. :)


Name: Zahra - May 18, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Faraz: I think you misread my notes. And you did. I was just giving your thoughts a counter. Nothing else. I was coming back and telling you what if I feel that way against other regions. How would that sound and feel? If someone comes and tells me that they do not have biases, I would never agree with them. That's hypocrisy and they are liars! But if someone says that they would rise above their biases and possible prejudices, personally, I would have far more respect for them. I have biases, but despite those I have far more friends from other ethnicities than my own. In fact, I believe if you have to stick to your own ethnicity then you better not leave your home country because you would not be open to other denominations. What's the use?

Going back to your original point that I 100% agree with. Provinces should be empowered and granted the right to live and breathe in what they have. Your haven may not hold the same value for me and vice versa. So, it's not ridiculing any specific ethnicity, but it is unacceptable to lay all the blames on one ethnicity. When you do that, there is something very wrong somewhere. From your posts you souund intelligent enough to be able to conclude. Now, if I further delve into this thought, I would think that the rule that majority is authority may have been prevalent. And due to that the majority may not have cared much for the other groups. That can be true. I am not sure and I have not observed that in my impressionable days in Pakistan. As I told you, we were never ever raised that who's who. Things are not the same way in the US. Regardless of what people say. You have to have the eye to observe that. And also there is no hard and fast rule that birds of same feather will flock together. There is something else that brings people together and that in my humble(I have a very hard time writing this word in an inappropriate context)opinion is the mindset. I deliberately did not put human goodness(heart). I need time to justify my thought and I do not cherish the luxury at the moment.

Take Care.

Imran: I do not need to get your approval on all/any of my posts and thoughts. OK! Keep that in mind before you utter anything random or well thought. That's not how things work in real life. No matter APNA is doing their best effort to fine tune the cover page with more pictures, still everyone is and will be entitled to hold their own views. Let's not cross the limits!
Dear Safir Rammah: East or West, Waris Shah is the Best :)!


Name: Rajeev - May 18, 2002
E-mail: rajeevbhardwaj@hotmail.com
Location: Los Angeles, CA     USA
Comments:   Hello Guys....namaste to every body...i never fail to read your posts daily...i have learnt and enjoyed so much coming to this discussion forum..i do not post much though, it is more fun reading such insightful discussions...but i have noticed that over a period of last 4 months the discussions are turning more and more political...sufi wisdom and beautiful poetry that used to be posted with consistent regularity is now only a memory...i hope you guys do not mind my comments..people like me actually look up to you guys for guidance and direction so please continue doing a great job...bahut bahut dhanwaad...


Name: Shikra - May 18, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran you are becomming an embarrasment to yourself and this page, bewakoofi di bhi koi hadd hundi aah. I am sure you would draw a substantial group of bigots of your own mentality if you created a site to discuss your thoughts and ideas. Then maybe the rest of us can continue with what this site was origianally intended for.


Name: Bali - May 18, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   India is not my mother...Punjab is...I would sacrifice India in a second for my Punjab...shows how little you know about hidden agenda's....seems like it is you who is being defensive....as for sacred cows....nice dig...but I find a cow no more sacred than I would an elephant...


Name: Bali - May 18, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Are these discussions not suppose to discuss ways in which we can come together as Punjabis? Then why not leave India and Pakistan out of it. I'm referring in particular to Imran's last statement, below (surely there are enough discussion sites where you get to play 'war' between the respective countries).

'But the enemy lying in ambush struck and caugt us off-gaurd. Not this time, because it's going down with us, if it dares...'

May I humbly suggest a little cultural exchange, instead of pondering constantly on nuclear exchange...yes its a cliche but one thats underused...


Name: malik - May 18, 2002
E-mail: malikazad@hotmail.com
Location: brooklyn, ny     USA
Comments:   please sab punjabi bolia karo............ GAL BAT keeta karo punjabi wich


Name: Zahra - May 18, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Faraz: Yes, a study was conducted on my said conclusion. Your next question should be: Where? When? By whom? How? The answers in the same order are as below: In my mind. In the past few years. By me. Based on my observations. Hope it resolved any ambiguity. Polite Regards.


Name: Faraz Mir - May 17, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
Comments:   Imran, I tend to agree with you with your opinion of regionalists, but they do not exist in a vacuum. There are reasons why we have nationalists and the like. It is because the Government of Pakistan has unknowingly or knowingly discriminated against various regions and provinces of Pakistan on the issues of water sharing, national finance distribution, language, royalty for using local resources (electricity, gas etc.) and other smaller issues. This is all a historical fact and what Pakistan needs is long-term and long-lasting structural reforms so this sort of stuff never happens again.


Name: Bali - May 17, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Safir, front page nu taan tusi hor chan taare laate, bahut pyaara, vekh ke rooh khirgai...shukriya ji


Name: Faraz Mir - May 17, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
Comments:   Zahra, why does it go without saying that Punjabis are the most hardworking people of all? Was some scitetific study conducted to determine this? Do you really think everyone in Pakistan other then Punjabis are sitting on their behinds doing nothing?

And you also mention Pushtuns love for Taliban, which is rather strange considering it was the Pakistani army that too had develoepd a fondness for Taliban over the years.

And why are you so offended by that buisnessmen comment? Is that really any more worse that what you have said against every other ethnciity in Pakistan?


Name: Zahra - May 17, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Faraz Mir: Just like you were stating your perspective, I stated a counter one. I have a few bad habits. One of them is writing under the influence of my thoughts. It's a good stress reliever for me :) If you read my post with all the highlights, there is not any generalizations. Yes, I would like to rip the other regions apart because that's what they keep on doing to Punjab. Despite growing up in Lahore, I was not used to hearing regional divisions till I was 23. Since I have been in the US, approx 9 years ago, I have learnt a lot about Pakistan in the context of regions. I would never have learnt that while being there. Identity based on regions is a very distinguishing factor as you come across indians/pakistanis from all parts of the world. I was at salon where a gujrati lady looked at me and asked me: "are you from punjab/muslim?" Near my work, downtown manhattan, the newspaper-stand-wala said, hello...Where are you from? I asked. He said, "India - Punjab." I said, "Which Part?" Amb'ala. These are just a few examples. The guy was very sweet and helpful. I was at a subway station where I had to get some stamps for a return envelope. The guys at the little shop were from BanglaDesh and Jehlum. The Bengali guy sold me the stamps twice their original value. When I discovered the other fellow was from Jehlum, I spoke many nice things about Jehlum. The bengali fellow was surprised to hear good things about his partner's city. At the end, I made them return the money they had charged me over the reasonable amount by getting extra stamps from them :) There are many other little episodes in daily life where one runs into people from iss paar and uss paar. So, the constant reminder of one's regional identity hovers.
By the way, I agree the Baluchs should be free to sink in drug alleys, the pathans should be free to do whatever they want - bring the country's name down by hugging talibans, the sindhis should continue marrying their daughters to trees and land...on that note, I would say the punjabis should be free to do whatever they want to. Why Not? Why be so critical on that? By the way, I have yet to hear the business man thing that you quoted. It was a pretty lame mention. Just like you defended other regional entities, you never had the straighforwardness to admit the fact that Punjabis are the most hardworking out of all as a regional group. That goes without saying!!! And I am not saying this just because I am one. I am saying because I believe in giving the devil its due. I am not sure the prevalent trend within other communities :) :) :) The factor that is annoying to me in my own clan relates to chauvinism. Despite the fact that deep down inside they are the sweetest and darling ones. Though I must mention I had a few interactions with eduacted pathan ladies and they were real nice women. In fact, the ones from charsadda are extremely pretty in their mannerisms. I was completely taken aback to see that.

I want to continue with my observations...

DB: Please make sure you read my post with masalah chai than plain doodh patti. You will need that!


Name: Faraz Mir - May 17, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
Comments:   No doubt Imran, I can quote many of my fellow Kashmiris, and my Mohajir, Pushtun and Sindhi friends who support Pakistan completely. And I too am not anti-Paksitan. If I was, I wouldn't be here, instead I would be in a JKLF forum. Yet their are others who don't, so its a mixed bag. But it shouldn't be that way. Everyone should support their country and feel the country is not discriminating against them. But their is discrimination in Paksitan against those whose first langauge is not Urdu, and thos from smaller provinces. Denying that would be immoral.

And it is not just the nationalists who divide people. Remember that in Sindh it was Gen Zia's divisive policies that alienated dthe majority of Sindhis and created the Frankenstien of MQM. Army has palyed its hand in this disunity.


Name: Faraz Mir - May 17, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
Comments:   But in reality ANYTHING would be better then the current name NWFP. This is really a minor and moot point in the scheme of things, but I am just using it to illustrae my point of why it is necessary to give some power to provinces.

My Pukhtun friend likes to say that NWFP stands for No Where From Pakistan, reflecting his view that his province is neglected by center.


Name: Faraz Mir - May 17, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
Comments:   Dear Imran, actually the NWFP assembly voted for the name change led by the ANP. ANP were also allies of Nawaz Sharif, yet due to pressure from various groups (like Hindko speakers who are quite prominent in Army), Nawaz backed down and the proposal was defeated in NA because PML did not go along with it. At least that’s how I remember it.

But I would disagree with you that just because a minority people speak Hindko or Kohistani in NWFP, its name cannot be changed. As you a minority people in Punjab speak Seraiki and other languages and dialects. In Sindh, people speak Urdu, Thari and Balochi. In Balochistan, almost half people speak Pushtun. But all these provinces have names reflecting their dominant groups and no one complains. I think it is only fair to allow the majority ethnicity in NWFP to name its province as it suits them.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 17, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Faraz,

The only point of interest to me in your post is changing the name of NWFP. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this voted down by the NWFP assembly during Nawaz Sharif's regime? There is a logic to that too. There are quite a few Punjabi, Hindku, Saraiki speakers settled in NWFP for generations now. I won't get into details of the geogrpahic regions (but I can if anybody needs to know!), as you probably know exactly which areas I am talking about. Don't you think, it would be an injustice to them to name NWFP "Pushtunkhwa"? Would it be right in your eyes to remove one injustice with another? I think, NWFP's name should be changed to some neutral name like Khyber or something else with people's consesus.

Regards


Name: Faraz Mir - May 17, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
My URL:
Comments:   Apologies for not replying earlier and I will also not be able to reply to each specific point raised here. It is well beyond my capability to keep up with so many people here. :-)

It is true that with or without autonomy the situation for the people may not change. But one thing it will change is how people perceive Pakistan and especially Punjab. There are many people I know personally belonging to Northern Areas, NWFP, and Sindh who feel cheated and deprived by Punjab. They do not hesitate to show their disdain for the Punjabi ruling class and in some cases towards Punjab as a whole. Without going into detailed specifics, let me say it has to do with discrimination provinces feel. So, why not just remove the ability of these people to even blame Punjab? Would it not be best for Punjab and Pakistan’s future? Just simply remove the any reason for people to complain. Let the people blame their own rulers and elites instead of the rulers and elites of Punjab.

If the Balochs want to smuggle drugs with their money, or whatever else that was stated here, so what? Everyone has to be master of their own destiny; people cannot keep relying on Punjab to do what is best for them. And especially considered that Punjabi bureaucracy, like the others in the provinces is corrupt, what good benefit is coming from controlling Pakistan from one province alone? Is Pakistan not supposed to be a federation of equal partners or will we continue to have to rely on the Army and some leaders alone?

I can tell from personal interactions, that people in the smaller provinces are completely hopeless and have started to feel that Pakistan was a colossal mistake for them. These feelings are genuine among the middle class and upper middle class in various provinces and cannot be hidden under Pakistani nationalism or Islamic unity.

And it is also true that Balochs not hesitate to show their disdain for the Punjabi ruling class and in some cases towards Punjab is and Sindhis are some of the most oppressed people in Pakistan thanks to their waders and sardars. But who is keeping these waderas and sardars in power? It is the army which has made a deal with the devil so to speak, because they know only way Sindh and Balochistan will support Pakistan if there are corrupt leaders in charge who can be easily bribed to do the bidding of the establishment. In this way popular nationalist sentiment against Punjabi domination can be easily curtailed.

The total and suffocating control of the central government is so strong that when NWFP wanted to change its name to Pushtunkhwa from the old British colonial name, they were not allowed to. Is this not another form of colonialism? If the NWFP assembly votes for this name change, why would it matter to Islamabad? Will Pakistan disintegrate if Pushtuns have their own named province like Kashmiri does or if Balochs or Punjabis want to learn in their own language?

People just feel completely hopeless because they know whatever they do or say will not change anything in Pakistan. The same old people, from the same old martial belt will continue to rule Pakistan and the best way to get to power in Pakistan is through Kakul.

This is a great article on the subject of provincial finance distribution and how it is discriminatory to some provinces. Again, please read this with an open mind here. http://www.dawn.com/2000/09/04/ebr1.htm

Lastly, the only alternative I can see for Pakistan’s continue survival is one in which the majority of departments currently under federal control be transferred to provinces and select autonomy be given to respective provinces. Provinces today have gained enough experience to handle on their own and even if not, it is the right of every province to mismanage or not. And I hope we all so realize that all Balochs are not drug smugglers, all Pushtuns are not homosexuals and idiots, all Sindhis are not lazy Sufis, and all Punjabis are not cunning businessman.

And, on the issue of language, I’m sure most Punjabis here realize that learning a language other then your mother tongue clearly puts you in a disadvantage. This is especially true for Pushtuns, Balochs and some Kashmiris and others, to whom Urdu is a completely foreign and alien language.

Also, the comment made on Mohajirs is largely true, as I have also found this when I lived in Karachi. However that phenomenon is not limited to them as I know quite a few Sindhis and one Baloch from Karachi who completely disagree with the Pakistani ideology, yet they have no choice but to be part of this country. And it is also nothing new or particular for people of one ethnicity to want to interact with people of the same ethnicity. I see this all the time in the US among the Pakistani community and in fact I have found the Punjabis, Mohajirs, and some Pushtuns as the only people who consider their loyalty to Pakistan above their ethnic loyalty. Not that I’ve met any Balochs in the US though. And this all can be traced back partly to the feelings and perceptions of discrimination that I keep harping about.

Again, I wish not to offend anyone, but these are the harsh truths of how things work in Pakistan.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 17, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ZJ: I don’t think with age one can attain mental maturity. Age can only bring wrinkles and gray hair but not the vision. I never ever think that I know everything but if you got that impression, I can loudly say NO it is wrong. For your information, I never consider myself a writer or a poet too. I do write but I never ever claim that what I write is good.Anyway, I can only offer my apologies if what I said have caused any inconvenience.

Few days back a retired professor told me that until we learn to make a line (queue) and wait for our turn we can not advance ourselves no matter what we do.

BAWA: I appreciate and respect your views.


Name: DullaBhatti - May 17, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shikra: I think Shiv enjoyed lot of fame and admiration when he was alive...he was rare...not many writers are that lucky. As for if he was alive today...I don't know..see no one can be a great poet all his life..people eventually wear down...it is better to leave the mela when it is full...even he said..jobhan rutte jo vi marda phull bannay yaaN taara.

I need to know if this hairat-zaida phrase is a compliment or nukasbeeni.:-) is it hairan hui hoi aankheiN? or hairan karne wali aankheiN? I am little confused here.

What anyone expects from DullaBhatti nick is his or her own perception of what real Dulla bhatti was....I did not take his name to give any impression but just because I liked him...I liked the waar of dulla bhatti that I first time heard from a local singer when I was a kid. Also fighting for a cause does not mean to bite any one who walks in front of you...My cause(besides soe other little ones:-)) is punjabi language and it has a special place in my heart...but that does not mean I have to thrash on every one(may be some:)) who disagrees with that. Also, fighting for it on discussion boards is a minor part of it...that I realized some time back. real fight is in real life and how you live it.


Name: Shikra - May 17, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   I was wandering if anyone has any comments on the thought that poets and certain other artistes are only given the legendary status after their deaths. True, they enjoy modest fame whilst alive, but their true talents are only admired after they are dead. I wander if the likes of Shiv Kumar Batalvi would have enjoyed the same admiration if he was still alive today.Any thoughts? DB: Now we all know you have hairat-zaida-ankhaen :)


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 17, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   "iluvkabza of Bedrooms..."

Don't be sending me no worms via email, please. I have traced you and this your first and last warning... SO WATCH OUT NEXT TIME OR I BE ON YOUR CASE!!!


Name: Zahra - May 17, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   DB: Whether I sound like Jhansi Kee Rani or Razia Sultana or Phoolan Devi or whatever...I do not wear or carry any aliases. I never have. So, in that respect your argument becomes a little weak :) Now, on your end, you carry a very heavy name with a purpose. Why not continue with that purpose under your real name? But if the real DB's rooh has joined you for somewhile then it's fine. It was nice to meet you in person and I must mention that I was expecting a deyo-qamat-khaufnak-daku-numa-dullah-bhatti and to my surprise there stood a sweet guy with hairat-zada-ankhaen :) Impressions! Perceptions! Suppositions!Take Care.


Name: DullaBhatti - May 17, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Z,that is true. you sound like Jhansi ki Rani with your full blown -ripping, tearing, torhing phorhing aur pata nahi ki ki - attack on e word. on the other hand I am the baaghi yet vunerable, poor dullah whose heart bleeds away to get a poor girl married.(waise it all depends upon what I am reading a particular day...I am at very impressionable age:))


Name: Zahra - May 17, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   MTM: This is a personal question. What age group do you fall under? 40 - 45? I am curious to know that. The way you talk on certain matters, it seems that sari dunya should rely on your judgement because you have seen it all. I do not like to see through others' eyes. I am graced with two of my own and I'd rather use them to the fullest. I appreciate your effort to give a picture but as I told you previously on the irritating note of yours on male supremacy based on the physical factors, I suggest again that you should not draw pictures to state the end. You should draw scenarios and pictures to narrate an experience, a point and etc....

DB: Whether you take doodh patti or you make patti doodh, please try to wear a soft expression with this heavy alias you are carrying. The reality is far far away from the sukht and dub'dabae' wala dullah bhatti. Most of the times, people with bhari bharkum names end up in sweet and innocent ones. Pata Naheen Kyoun?

e for elites will be ripped, dissected and torn apart. Please wait for my organized thoughts on this matter.


Name: Safir Rammah - May 16, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Shikra: We are always looking for good Punjabi music to share with all of our visitors around the world. We will appreciate if you can send a copy of whatever music you have that you think should be on APNA site, either as CDs or audio tapes, at the following address:

Safir Rammah, 13349 Jasper Court, Fairfax, Va. 22033, USA


Name: bagga - May 16, 2002
E-mail: a@aol.com
Comments:   Bawa: wow ur going to type up the book =). If you have a scanner you might want to look into some type of OCR text recognition software. You can scan in the page and it will put it will transform it into text. Might be easier than typing it up, even through scanning each page is also a nightmare but easier =).


Name: Gursharan Singh - May 16, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: reston, va     USA
Comments:   Hello all Mainu Shikrey di gall poori dil nu lagdi hai. I think haale v baahrley kai vasiley han jehna kol punjabi da kaafi vadhiyaa music peya hai jo ke APNA di music selection vich hona chahida hai. is masle vich Punjabi Academy Delhi nu contact kitta ja sakda hai. main kise naal contact karan di koshish karanga. aapni eh koshish honi chahidi hai ke aapni is site nu music vaale pakhon itna amir kar dayiyey ke koi v panjabi music lover di saari bhukh saadi site ton poori ho jaave.


Name: Bawa, - May 16, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   shikra: Just to agree with you about this being one of the best music sites in any language that I know of, not only because of the content but also the fact that it WORKS! I have only heard one of the songs of Narinder Chanchal (apart from the Bobby one of course); i am sure they are interesting recordings.
MTM: Agree with your views about people's basic struggle with life; I also see Zahra's point of what e--could do. The problem as always is not what could be done, but rather what is actually done, whcih always seems to be too little, too piecemeal. I am also struck by the difference in what we believe is important for other people, and whar they think is important.
On the other hand, I am a great believer in education creating a people better able to cope with their daily lives and better able to make their everyday decisions: investment in improving the dignity of human lives of our subcontinent should be our prime priority. In this sense, I am impressed by some of the analysis in APNA articles on how the lack of competence in your mother tongue may hamper your entire education: Who taught Punjabis to look down upon themselves? And why are even the most educated and emlightened people forever ready to fall into this trap? I find this incomprehensible. For example, my yound children speak 3 languages, and the great sorrow of my life is not having their grandparents around so that they could develop their Punjabi normally. But people who can (for e.g. in the UK) restrict their children to speaking only one language : English, when they have the opportunity (and believe me, being bilingual in any language combinations has been shown time and again to greatly benefit the development of the brain) to learn another language effortlessly at home? And here I stop at what goes on in Punjab itself, because words fail me, it upsets me so much.
I have recently been "accused" of speaking too !thhet! Punjabi...I am myself consider to be barely adequate.


Name: Shikra - May 16, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   I love the music link on this page and I must admit I was pleasently surprised to see some recordings that even I didnt have in my vast music collection. There are a few recordings that I think should be a must for this site and I would be more than pleased to forward them to the administrator of this site.To start with Narendra Chancal (Beshak Mandir Masjid todo. Film: BOBBY) recorded an album of Baba Bulleh Shahs Kaafian called NAVIN BAHAR in 1977 and includes amongst the following kaafi's, 'Ishq di navion navi bahar', 'Ni mein kamli aan', 'Akhian akhian akhian ni mein barhia saam ke rakhia' etc.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 16, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ZJ: Better part of our population is living below poverty line. They are helpless. They are trying hard to meet their basic needs. How can they fight against e-class? Who can ask who for his or her contribution towards country or society? How can you change the mindset? The mindset which we think may change with education and prosperity. But I have doubts because I came across very few educated ones who have different mindset otherwise mostly people have same rigid thoughts no matter how much he or she is educated. They are hypocrites, talk sense where talk is concerned but act senselessly disgraceful on every issue. They are biased only to their own benefits. They are not even sincere to their own groups, community or people because they are only sincere towards themselves. The issue is not so easy to tackle.

Souch Ka Yeh Azaab Mat Jheeloo
Dard Yeh Bayhesaab Mat Jheeloo
NaaN Hi Tum Say Rawaaj BadlaiN Gay
NaaN Hi Tum Say Mizaaj BadlaiN Gay

DB: do you know Bhulla Shah when died not allowed to be buried in the city’s graveyard and his body was not buried for the better period of four days. His body was buried when a tawaef had donated her piece of land for the purpose.


Name: Bawa, - May 16, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Bagga:
The book in question is "History of the Sikhs" by J.D.Cunnigham, but at the moment am in the process of typing up the first chapter which is detailed descritption of the land and its people circa 1846. I will send it to APNA, incase Sfirji thinks it suitable or otherwise post it on my website (not yet functioning). He is very accurate and detailed in his descriptions, although his interpretions of some customs maybe erroneous, this is the resaon why he was unceremoniously romoved by the Marquis of Dalhousie, for telling the True story of the annexation of the Punjab by the British. Although he has written it as an historical account, and thought he was doing something completely innocent, apparentely it did not go down well with the Imperial Government!
One thing that brings a lump to my throat when i am typing it up is to realise how we were one, who could have predicted what would happen 100 years hence? It seems such a shame (don't mean that much about the political boundaries) but of the boundaries of our hearts.
MTM: Answer to the million dollar question about tolerance: Mine is to always try and put myself in the otehr person's place. If we could all do that, think what the other person is going through, instead of all this MAIN, MAIN, USSIN, TUSSEEN, it is really despairing to see even supposedly moderate, educated people start talking of freeing this and that, or this being better than that, APNE DIL VICH LABBO, and see all the walls one has built up there.
DN: Thanks for bringing everyone back to Punjabiat!!!


Name: DullaBhatti - May 16, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Ok I read rest of it after a cup of dudh-patti.:-)


Name: DullaBhatti - May 16, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   zahra, you lost me by the end of first paragraph. ki jabhaliaN maarn daiN ain? banda ainna vi nai confused hona chahida.:-)


Name: DullaBhatti - May 16, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   I am sure you will like it. sorry it is too long. An excerpts from "Bhubbal":
Ustad Daman de hujray ch ikk shaam

ikk din mere baitheyaN Gaurmint Kaalege Lahore de sabka principal hujray wihc aye. asaN doweiM roti kha rahe saan. Daktar sahib ne aundeyaN ee mainu hukam hoyea "jaa, ikk banday di roTi hor lai aa" ajj roti bazaaroN ayee si. main jaa ke ikk banday lai hor roti lai ayea.
garmiyaN de din sann. dhai vajjay da veila hona ain. bahir antaN di garmi si par hujray wich dhanD si. roTi khaan magroN daktar Sahib vaastay apnay hath naal kujh saib katt ke, chhill ke ohna aggya plate wich rakhay. kujh dair idhar udhar dian gallaN hoyean. doweiN yaar sann. ikk doojay koloN ukka paye nahi sann jhijakday te naa hi kujh sangday sann.
(Ustad Daman valloN)Daktar sahib nu puchhan utte, "Daktar sahib, ainnee dhupp wich khaireeN niklay O?" Daktar sahib ne aakheya " mian Bulleh Shah baaray kujh kamm karna chauhda haan. 'picture' wale mere sarparasti karna chaunday ne. oh eiss kamm wich meri har taraN di madad kar rahe ne. meri reejh ay ke tusi meri madad karo taaN jo main eh kamm siray chaaRh lawaN."

Ustad puchheya " Daktar Sahib, Bulleh Shah baaray tusi ki kam karna chaunday O?"
Daktar sahib barhe ihtmaad naal bolay "asaN Bulleh Shah de kalaam wichoN galtiyaN kadd ke saaf karna chaunday aan."
"Tuhade te tuhade sarprastaN de khiyal wich Bulleh shah de kalaam wich kehRiyan ghaltiyaN ne?" Ustaad ji kujh khijj gaye san.
daktar sahib aakheya" eish naik maksad lai taaN tuhadi madad lorhday haan. Bulleh Shah sahib musalmaan sufi te Imaam masjid vi sann. ohna de walid vi imaam masjid san" Daktar sahib zor de ke aakheya " asaaday khiyal wihc musalmaan Bulleh Shah de kalam wich ghair-Islami shair kinjh aa sakday ne. eh vekhna te bhaalna ay. Kalaam saaf karna ay. Ustad ji tusi vi kujh madad karo."
eh gall sunnke hujray wala(Ustad Daman) kujh garm ho giya te aakheya "Daktar sahib, na tusi Punjabi de banday O te naaN tusi koi Punjabi di kitaab parhi hui ay. na hi tuhada koi shair-o-adab naal vasta ay. phair tuhanu ki haq ay Bulleh Shah dian sunntaN karn tur paye O?"
Daktar sahib vi chirh gaye, gussay naal bolay " eh ki gall hui bhalla! main Punjabi, mera piyo Punjabi, meri maaN Punjaban. mainu kiyoN nahi Punjabi di samajh?. main sara Punjabi da literature parheya hoyea ay".
hujray wale muskra ke aakheya " daktar sahib tusi Punjabi da kujh nai parheya. je parheya hunda taaN injh ustra na phairday".
Daktar sahib phair aakheya " main parheya hoyea ay. mainu Punjabi di samajh ay. Main Punjabi da changa jaanu aan".
"nahi, tusaN jo parheya ay oh idhar da(west Punjab) literature parheya hona ay. ehdar te koi kamm ee nahi hoyea. ous paasay(east) Bulleh Shah te doojay Punjabi literature utte bahut ziyada kamm hoyea ay jo tusi nahi parheya. pehlay oh parho te phair ekho, Bulleh Shha utte kinna kamm keeta ay Punjabi piyaareyaN ne".
par daktar sahib arh gaye. anparhta da taahna sunnke bolay"jadd main Punjabi aan, Punjabi literature parheya hoyea ay phair mainu ki lorh ay gurmukhi parhan di".
Daktar sahib jazbaati ho gaye. boli gaye "mainu maloom ay Bulleh Shah da Punjabi adb wich ki mukaam te rutba ay. mainu Punjabi zuban di samajh soojh ay. main kiyoN kisay koloN puchhda phiraN ke Bulleh Shah da ki mukaam ay."
gall vadh gai si. bahut talkhi hoi. doweiN yaar apni apni zidd utte arh gaye.
hujray wale aakheya " je tuhanu Punjabi zuban aavandi ay, soojh boojh vi ay taN eh shair di tashreeh diyo:

naraRh ganDhiye, karaRh kattiye
kisay naveliye maar padeeRhi'ay ni.
phireiN sahnaN de naal khehndi
chapaRh banDiye, chhanniyeiN chehariye ni.

"je ehthay tuhanu sharm aundi ay taaN likh ke lai jao. ghar baith ke tashreeh kar liya je" par Daktar te hairaan sann. Bolay "main eh shair kidhray nahi paRheya. lagda ay Waris Shah da hona ain."

"eiss lai te main kehna vaan ke tusaN Punjabi de banday nahi O. Bulleh Shah dian sunntaN na karo. par tusi apni zaat nu tool ee bahut ditta hoyea ay, kisay di gall tuhade teekar aparhdi ee nahi. Maulvi lokkaN taaN pehlay ee Bulleh Shah te hor Punjabi zuban de adab naal dharoh keeta hoyea ay. sunntaN keetiyaN hoyeaN ne. hunn tusi ustra lai ke tur paye O."


Name: Zahra - May 16, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   I owe myself quite a few write-ups on things that I have been meaning to address. Somehow my pending engagements never seemed merciful to me. The topic of e for elites is of a lot of interest to me. I want to rip this concept apart that no one on the land known as Pakistan ever uses this word again. I have pure disgust for this word and the thought that it promotes. It's amazing how things work back home. If you stop and analyze it's simply appaling how we start taking things for granted when they are necessaties; and make them very important when they are petty matters. Does an elite contribute anything to the economy of Pakistan? Does that elite do anything to contribute to that soceity? If any of these things are done then I would rather term him/her as a responsible citizen than an elite. A country like Pakistan does not cherish the luxury of taking pride in its elites. It will come in the limelight when a previously run madrissa turned into a haven for the poor kids by teaching them on current affairs, social sciences and etc... It's all on how we set our priorities. Sending a survey of the elites in Pakistan will not secure a cover page in Times/Newsweek, it will invite ridicule and disdain. Sending a survey on how poverty-level is decreasing and opportunties are increasing for the masses, will for sure be a powerful and catchy topic. Other countries will like to to take a look at the working model and how things were handled and changed. This is very simple and basic stuff, why complex things?
On a thought expressed by Faraz, I have to say a few things. Punjabis are the most hardworking people and that goes without saying. Hardwork always bears good results. Prosperity does not always come because you are born with it. Often times its the result of sheer hardwork and the effort you put in. I can be wrong but Pathans are famous for their pride and ego and the ghairut part, baluchs fall under the same category more or less...sindhis are also not the most hardworking regional entity. So if anyone has to cry that should be the Punjabis than anyone else, mainly because "Why should the rest of the incompetents and slow and steady ones rely on our efforts? Why should they dwell and take advantage of our efforts?" You said something very strong about water and other resources. The Baluchs are into drugs. What will they do with gas and any other produce they get on their land? To sell them to get more poppy? I would not generalize that for all Baluchs as that part of Pakistan has been a territory which was never treated fairly and was not developed for a long time. When we say that that part is an atoot ung of Pakistan then we should as a country care to develop that land and provide long-term opportunities for its people. Pathans are another interesting tribe. I have been reading so many things about their prevalent rituals and param paras that I am baffled. I also was told by a half pathan that when it comes to Pakistan vs their tribe, they will always side with their tribe and never with the country. Who are we left with? Sindhis. Walking and Talking Sufis. What are they good at? I will let the readers take a crack at it. What have they done for Sindh aside from making sure that it's divided or appropriately allocated or providing the haris with enough lands??? what? Last but not the least, Urdu Speaking. This is a very interesting denomination with various blends. The ones who moved to Punjab never considered themselves as Muhajirs. They always considered themselves as the people of that soil. The ones who entered KHI made sure that they make themselves stand out. I feel for their efforts of migration and restarting their lives from scratch on certain instances; and that's it. I have a few friends who have told me their stories on how their families had to leave everything to move to Pakistan. And that's a very noble step towards something they believed in. Now, not everyone had the same intentions. Some just escaped to save their lives. I had a suitor who on the first meeting told me about his parents' affiliations with India and his father's leanings towards India and against the creation of Pakistan. I simply told myself that no way I would enter or tread such a household where I have ideology conflicts. My mother disagreed with my approach but I convinced her that it's me who has to live with such screwed up beings and I am not jumping into a well with eyes wide open. End of Discussion!

I would also add a few personal experiences where I was working with a non-profit and one active member made sure that all the grants that we raise go toward the project in Karachi than anywhere else in Pakistan. My focus was Baluchistan as I had talked with a few in bureacracy who were focusing on that part of Pakistan. For some reaosn, this person got very agitated on my suggestion. I had to put my foot down and tell her that I would not raise a single penny if this kind of prejudiced thinking will prevail in the team. I am not a Baluchi and should try to pour the money into any educational development projects underway in Punjab, but I would not do that 100%. I will try to assist other parts of Pakistan that require desperate help and have the urgent need. This is selfish and mean to just think of your own little kona. And to me, Baluchistan needs help for its survival. It's very sad what has become of that part of Pakistan. All those grim realities would never have been in limelight, had the NY Times and other papers not talk about the pathetic situation in the alleys of Baluchistan. This was just one incident that told me a lot about the so called educated KHiite mindset. The others have been equally disgusting when it comes to regional level. As far as personal level is concerned, things are real cool and congenial. But at the mentality level, there is pure bias and prejudice. While I am stating my true observations and feelings, I also must mention that I may have been a very sensitive observer than a completely impartial being. It simply ticks me off when I find every KHiite jumping up and down when they see someone talking in Urdu, with a question: Are you from KHI? I have never ever come across such disgusting and biased behavior while growing up in Pakistan. I have seen so many cases here in the US with the same set of questions that I know the inside out pretty well by now. Am I prejudiced based on my observations? Yes and No. Yes, because I dislike certain behavioral patterns and mindsets and mentalities; and No, because I am impartial. This may come across as pure critique. If it does convey that sentiment then I am not way off. I have listened to a lot of criticism whether you call it constructive or destructive from the vocal KHiites, some are real good friends of mine, but I cannot ignore the constant comparisons they keep on making, knowing their own weaknesses. To me that's not fair.

Shikra: Just to correct you the water in Pakistan is not bad at all. I have rarely used bottled water despite the fact that in the past few years my parents have started getting the bottled water. I have never been sick(b.t.g.o.g) with the tap water. Here in NJ and in NY, I have to be very careful. I cannot think of taking the tap water. As far as taez taez bolnae walae are concerned...NYorkers are fast in their delivery but they still have some softness. The ones I was referring too lacked the politeness and softness known as "malahut." They had kara'kh'tagee in their lub'o'lehja.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 16, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra,

Sorry for misspelling your name. I type too fast some time while putting down my random thoughts. So it's just a slip of finger and unintentional. I assure you.

No, I used a nick name instead. I never really interacted with you on a personal level earlier than this, but I try to read all the writers (good and bad) for the heck of it. Kiyonke, “Gulshan Ki Faqat PhooloN Se Nahin KantooN Se Bhi Zeenat Hoti Hai…”. I myself can be pretty thorny at times.:)

Regards


Name: Zahra - May 15, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   I do not understand one thing and that is if people misspell my name out of sheer exuberance or excitement while narrating their perspective. Whatever is the reason, please do not do that. It ticks me off. Thanks.
Imran: Mujhae Shuk Thaa that you may be talking about P-Forum. But I was not positive. Also, I do not think that I have ever come across your views under this alias or your real name. Did you ever write under your last name? Now, I am curious. Also, again I took a guess based on what you've stated. I do not read each and everything on any forum. Some of them are pure nonsense and some are a waste of time. It is very time consuming to go through everything so I'd rather skip the attempt. Unless I like a writer and his perspectives, then I am sure to read even his/her dry thoughts. At least, I will motivate myself.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 15, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zhara,

Actually you are quite right! You know the context since it's often brought up on the Pakistan Forum, but people here are sure to be bothered by that strong a statement. I should have been more precise.

What I meant in my sarcastic stride was that when it comes to ISI's "Kashmir policy", "one segment of society is just expendable" i.e. Shias. The mercenaries will be mercenaries. They will sell their services to the highest bidder.;) Hope that removes the confusion.

Regards


Name: Zahra - May 15, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   In my humble opinion: Imran's thoughts can convey two different messages. I will withhod my understanding and wait till I hear back from him.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 15, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ZJ & Suman: How can we inject tolerance if we are genetically intolerant?

"As there exists suggestion of genetic influences in criminal behavior and that is supported by studies of adopted children carried out to determine the influence of the biological parent on criminality. One such study showed that the rate of criminality was higher among those adopted children who had one biological parent who was criminal than among those who had one adoptive parent who was criminal but whose biological parents were not. The highest rates of criminality were found among those children who had both biological parents and adoptive parents who were criminal".


Name: Darshan Singh Mann - May 15, 2002
E-mail: dmann@shaw.ca
Location: Burnaby, BC, BC     Canada
Comments:   I have searched the apna forum and have not been able to find the actual origin of Apna. Who were the original members? Where did this all begin ? How is it supported ? Appreciateif someone would paste / document my thouhts. ALSO Congratulate to Saffir for the very defficult play , Loha Cut. This was first stage played in Vancouver in 1974. Yograj Sedha of the Chan Pardsi Film fame ,and my wife Amrit who played opposite him, was the director. Mohan baggan was also supporting this project. Then they did several other plays , one that is very defficult to stage was Kamagamaru , written and directed by my brother in law Ajmer Singh Rode ( brother of Navtej Singh of LOndon ). Any way I am off the subject. Appreciate if someone could assist me . Thank you Have a good day to all/ Darshan By the way I do like the link, keep up the good works.


Name: Jaswal - May 15, 2002
E-mail: gqrajput@hotmail.com
Comments:   Hey Imran, you didn't answer Balli's question. I'm very intrigued by the strong statements you made. So if you could answer her question, it'd be really nice of you :-) Here it is again - "maybe I'm a little slow, but what does you being shia, or being killed for being shia have to do with freeing Kashmir? I don't see the correlation."


Name: DullaBhatti - May 14, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Has anyone read Farzand Ali's autobiographical novel "Bhubbal"? I heard about it long time ago that it has some real story about Ustad Daman's life but could not find it until the other day I saw a copy(in gurmukhi) in our local library. I have read only 1/3 of it yet. Farzand Ali is the son of a mujaahra(raahak)[the farm workers who get land on lease from jagirdars] and he narrates an incident where he along with other raahak(s) went to Sindh to do farming on a Punjabi landlords farm. Obviously it was a big piece of land circling many Sindhi villages and the landlord(he refers him as a retired govt officer from Lahore and known as Raja Sahib. anyone knows who was/is this person? this was in 60s) threw away the Sindhi workers and brought thousands of punjabi labor families to work there. He writes about some very cruel treatment of Sindhis by newly migrated Punjabis..mostly labour class. He writes that we were Punjabis but we did not own anything in Punjab...not even our homes. but when they moved to Sindh even this labour class people felt like they are kings compared to Sindhis(he made some referneces to miserable self esteem Sindhis and poor physiques) and as a result these punjabi people started doing lutt-maar, choris and used to break moghas(holes) in canal going to Sindh farms and steal their water. It got so bad that at one point Sindhis would get no water down stream and their farms, already in poor shape, were getting baron..anyway...not to mention many of those newly migrated punjabi labour families got sick of Sindhi water(drinking) and weather and moved back to Punjab and were happy to be home. Novel is not done yet but few conclusions so far:

- If farm labour from Punjab can be that aggressive to Sindhis(I can imagine other classes of Punjabis) , then I see some truth in alledgations that Punjabis have imperialist attitude towards Sindhis. I still don;t know how true it is but this book which I think is very honest portrayal by Farzand Ali( I don;t see any motive that he would lie about it).

- The gruesome picture he portrays about the lives of these raahks and treatment by Jagirdars is unheard by me before. We have jagirdari in East Punjab but no one owns villages. The labour, mostly dalits, in villages own their homes..no matter how small, and in most part independent. I have seen some who due to sickness, daughter's marriage etc borrow too much money in advance and then end up have a bond with the farmer but that bond used to be about the time limits..that worker is going to work for the farmer for 2 years or whatever but he will get paid the same as others in the village. which used to be pretty much standard in the village and an open issue...their lives were miserable by all accounts but the raahks in this novel, who supposedly are a step higher than plain labour worker in Punjab, were living even worse than dalits(or mahzbis) in Punjab. Anyway, I understand the impact of feudalism a bit more clearer at a microscopic level now.

- These punjabi workers who had no property in punjab, no status to brag about, no social standing felt like pardesi in Sindh. They composed their own dholas and mahias about their pardes in Punjabi and actually felt more aware of their Punjabiness in Sindh. In Punjab they were raahaks...in Sindh they were Punjabis.

- Unlike small farmers who deal witht heir labour directly and in most cases work alongside, jagirdars control their labour through middlemen who have their own vices and motives and can be really cruel. In one case Jagirdar threw away one raahak out of the land because his kids picked some produce without jagirdar(or his middleman's) permission inspite of the fact that it was the land that raahak farmed himself and produce was the best in neghourhood(meaning more share for jagirdar).


Name: suman - May 14, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   MTM. You have come totally to the point and have stated the core problem. Zahra has offered some excellent and very practical suggestions. My view is that before we try to inculcate tolerance in the next generation (thru teaching and example) we have to

1. remove intolerance from our own selves whenever and wherever we find it.

and 2. never tolerate angry and hateful words and ideas from others and never hesitate to let them know that such views are uncivilized and show a sad lack of education and understanding. This can be said in a tolerant way - I promise you!

If we accept that we are Punjabis then we would be blind not to see that Hindu, Muslim and Sikh are three corners of this triangle. In literature, music, culture, architecture and historical memory we are intertwined. We have all done some pretty nasty things to one another over the centuries. It is time to move on to solutions and not add to the hysteria.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 14, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra,

Don't worry what you don't know can't hurt you. Ignorance can be a bliss, sometimes. Trust me on this one!

Kind Regards


Name: Shikra - May 14, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   MTM.... in reference to your reply to Zahra, true the New Yorkers may be talking faster but their water is still cleaner than pakistans.


Name: Bali - May 14, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   I was almost waiting for that Zahra...my apologies your honour ;)


Name: Zahra - May 14, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   MTM: In my view, tolerance can be inculcated in the following ways and circumstances:
a) Tolerance comes with diversity or living in diverse surroundings. With tolerance, preservation of personal values also kicks in at times.

b) Tolerance can be inculcated at a school level. There is so much influence of a teacher on a student that a whole transformation can occur in a class'lesson. If one is a conscientious student then there are certain things that will stay with that person till death. Or if you like your teacher then you are prone to remembering what you are taught, for a very long time.

c) Tolerance comes with practicing what you believe in. This has some complexity.

d) Tolerance is promoted by real life examples with humans and not lions and lionesses.


Name: Zahra - May 14, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali: You are more than welcome to receive all the warnings. Please do not include "all" with you in that humble task :)


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 14, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   what i have concluded is that no matter how much we play with words like secular or religious attitudes or behaviour or else but the real issue to me is tolerance and tolerant society. partition and the blood bath we have discussed at a broader canvas....if we view things at much lower spectrum we will see that partition even for family fortunes in may cases brings blood bath even today......of near dears by near dears .........the million dollar question is how tolerance can be injected in our society....through which exercise we can become tolerant?


Name: Zahra - May 14, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: I have a good memory but I have no clue who you are. You have been repeatedly mentioning the other forum and I also have no clue which one you are referring to. Have you been writing under the same nick or it's different ? Also, I never knew your sect. I just wrote in a certain context to give a comparison of people from my parents' generation vs people today. In my view, JFK's quote is not applicable in the current context. And, critcism should not always be taken in a negative sense. Many times it has its own merit -it's just one needs to join the word "constructive" with it :)


Name: anonoymous - May 14, 2002
E-mail: anon@anon.com
Comments:  

**** Posting removed: - was on an unrelated political issue. This forum is dedicated to discussion's on Punjabi, Punjabiat and related issues ****.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 14, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ZJ: I enjoyed reading "I cannot stand that city due to its ganda pani and taez taez bolanae walae loag" but i think New Yorkers are a bit faster than them ......isn't it?


Name: bagga - May 14, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Bawa, u wrote something about Cunningham's book, which book do u have? history of sikhs? I am also looking for History and Study of the Jats by B. S. Dhillon and Jats, The Ancient rulers: A Clan Study by B. S. Dahiya. Does anyone know where u can purchase these, maybe online? Thanks


Name: Saeed Farani - May 14, 2002
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Dr. Zaki Jee, I feel sorry that you send me mails in my hotmail account and could not get through these mails. I also feel a lot of problems with hotmail. There is something wrong which is beyond our understanding. Anyhow, try to use this yahoo.com and I hope it will work and I will be able to receive your mails. NaeeN tay fer Dullah Bhatti toN taweez ganDa karwana paey ga. Zaki Jee, sanoo chamRay Jin Bhoot baRay......... nayN. Eh taweez ganDyaaaN naal naeeN janday. Dullah Bhatti Jee, Two days back I was in Lahore to attend one function regarding Punjabi calender.The Punjab Naujawan Mahaz, an organisation published this calendar, featuring six paintings by Sabir Nazar.It is very good calendar but its price is beyond the power of a common man ie. Rs.100. I requested to Amjid Sahib and Maqsood Saqib that an ordinary calendar is availalbe at much lower cost so please you have to reduce the price. It must not be more than Rs. 30 to 40/- so that many people could purchase it happily. Both of them agreed and said that the next edition / printing price will be reduced. It is pity and I cannot understand one thing that our friends keep very high prices of Punjabi books or calendars whereas it can create hinderance in the way of promoting Punjabi. I appreciate the price policy of Punjabi Adabi Board, Lahore. Their prices are very reasonable. Secondly, many people (Punjabi Piyaray) are going to England to participate in an International Punjabi Conference from Pakistan. I also know some of those participants who have no any link with Punjabi or its promotion. O yes, there is a possiblity that after attending the conference they start loving Punjabi. I am not invited by Sher-e-Punjab Fakhar Zaman. (Unfortunately, we have many sher in Pakistani Punjab). it is estimated that each person will spend at least Rs.50,000. O lllaaallaaa. It is a big amount. They should try to focus on the poor language situation here in Pakistan. The money which will be spent by these Punjabi shers may be more than two million rupees and that could be spent to promote punjabi by publishing Punjabi books like dictionaries, grammer and story books which they could distribute among Punjabies freely or at lower cost. Certainly, this job would be much more affective. Talking with common people in Mochi Gate, Lahore is more valuable instead of attending confereces in London. O yes, if it could bring some dramatic change then I appreciate the struggles of those friends. Safir Rammah Jee, I introduced your site to the participants in Lahore seminar. Many friends noted the address of your site. It is the greatest job which is being done by you. Bravo and go on please.


Name: Bali - May 14, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Imran..maybe I'm a little slow, but what does you being shia, or being killed for being shia have to do with freeing Kashmir? I don't see the correlation.

Safir I think we all deserve a warning about now ;-) BUT I had to ask.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra,

"ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country." President John F. Kennedy

I know these are not exactly the high times for my country. But, what the heck, it's still mine till death do us apart. I think, from the other forum you know that I am Shia myself. So what if I get killed. A price worth paying for freeing Kashmir. My take!

Allah Baili


Name: Zahra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   My last sentence in the previous post should read: accept than except.


Name: Javed Zaki - May 13, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Farani Ji! All my emails sent to your hotmail address do not go through. Aithe vi koi 'Taaveez' da chakar lagda e. Hun Dulla Bhatti ji di vaari e es da koi upaa dasnaaN. Je oh taveet dhaage te yaqeen neiN rakhde te menooN ose bozarg nooN pochhna pousi, jinnaaN koloN meiN ohnaaN de computer nooN chamRe bhoot da makkoo Thappan lei pochiya si. Ya tussi Amaam Barri de machch tooN bhakhde kole le ke apne computer nooN laal mirchaaN di dhoni dau, te naal paRho
Hot-mail Hot-mail
Chhad de tooN e puTha khel
JehRa vi koi sunhya ghalle
Mil jaae sanooN vel ka-vel

HaaN. dhoni den lagyaaN apne nukk moNh te kapRa ban-na na bhulna. Eh na hove je laal mirchaaN di dhoni tohaanooN lag jaae te tussi kisse bande di gal na sonoo. Oh kehNde ne naaN taveet ulta vi pe sakda e. Eh osse bozarg (siyaah poosh) ne disya si. Bodarg koi 90 saal de sunn te taveetaaN de nuskhiyaaN de naal hor kei nuskhe das ke aap Tibet de pahaRaan vich jaa chhoppe. Sunya e kei dum-daar siyaari-yaaN waang har chaali varhyaaN magrooN phhera paaNde ne. Rab tohaadi te saadi hayaati kare je sanooN ohna da ik vaari pher darshan naseeb hove. Bozarg te meiN ohnaaN nooN izzat de paarooN likhdaaN, unj te oh 90 saal de hoon de baav-jood, 30-35 tooN vadde neiN lagde. Kehnde san je meiN Tibet ja ke burf-sandwitch de illavah koi cheez nei khaanda. Eh-ho meri omar-daraazi da raaz e.
Changa Allah baili, ajje mein taveet baare vi vadda amal karna e. Zaki


Name: Zahra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: I am clear on your point. I am born and bred in Christian Schools run by nuns and I have yet to see any Muslim misbehaving with them. On Xmas, both my brother and I would visit Shezan with Abu to get Xmas and New Year Cakes for my teaching staff and the principal. It was a must! In fact, one lady also got elected in the senate or national assembly, a good friend of my family. Few weeks back at my uncle's place, I repeatedly heard him saying that he was a secular muslim. His father and my grandfather were staunch muslim league-ees and supported the efforts from Gujranwala City. As it was a reunion, both my dear father and my uncle kept on remembering those days when they were exuberant about having a Pakistan. My uncle kept on quoting Jinnah and stated that Jinnah's efforts were towards a secular Pakistan - where minorities could breathe as freely as the majority could. He happens to be a Shiite and laments the way shiites are/have been treated in the recent years. His ancestral house used to and still hosts the biggest zuljinnah gathering for over half a century. He stated his sadness on the recent events where police and law enforcement agencies are found posted right and left outside their mosques and houses. He very sadly stated, "this is not what our ancestors got Pakistan for." Well, he has been away for over 40 years and goes back for a few weeks every now and then. Still, he is disgusted. On that day of discussion we read the news of another shiites' killing in Punjab. The government should be taken to task for these mass killings. How the hell can these people rule anyone or anywhere when they cannot provide the locals with basic necessities. The basics do not include bringing intellectuals on board or revamping a whole department. The basics include providing education, law and order, safety, a loving and peaceful environment. It's a mess. Do you realize that? Please do not avoid encountering the truth - ostriches bunn nae kaa kya faida?
Few months back, I attended a session where a senior official was invited to talk on the current affairs in Pakistan and allure the expats to initiate investment opportunties back home. I raised a few questions and basically they all revolved around the aspect of law and order. Why would I like to put my life into jeopardy by going to a lawless land? Why? It's the same, I cannot stand the way Saudis treat women therefore I do not plan to tread that country till those savages become insaan. My mother, admonishes my stubborness that all the sibblings have visited the holy places with the family except for me. I tell my mother that rituals are important but certain rituals ought to be performed with full conviction. I have no respect for the narrow-minded people who slap women's heads and order them to cover their heads. I would simply walk out. Few years back,I was planning to join my parents for Umraa. The chap at the consulate constantly kept on saying that it's better if your mehram joins you. I told the duffer a few times that I would fly from the US and meet my parents at the airport in Jeddah. The duffer had a hard time comprehending the fact that two flights from two different parts of the world could land at one airport and a daughter can join her parents at the airport. Oh, how I abhor such beings! In short, there are discrepancies and there are unfair treatments every now and then on petty issues. Some of those issues are due to the legislative dictations than anarchy. In our country, anarchy is prevalent. That's why the middle class has a hard time to prosper. They would go out and work in other parts of the world and provide them with the best labor but they would not think of staying in Pakistan due to lack of opportunities and safety. What's happening to the professionals in KHI? I cannot stand that city due to its ganda pani and taez taez bolanae walae loag, but still I would hate to see the youth dying in the hands of afra tafree and lawlessness. Doctors are flying out to save their lives. At the end of the day, when you go home, wherever you are, you want to be at home with a feeling of serenity and peace. You want to be able to connect to yourself than worry about the minutes you have left in this world. What's the future of our youth? Or it's a misnomer to use the word "future" in this context? All the current tantae' baazis that are in full bloom in Pakistan are a shame to the very existance of this country. I liked the steps that Musharraf has introduced but I am quite disappointed by the slogans he has started raising. The patriots defend the existance of the country. I am a patriot myself and I used to that. I do not do that any more. I am becoming indifferent. It's worth nothing. Every time when my mind comes up with a defensive stance, another thought overshadows the said thought. The latter thought has more substance in terms of what can be done or should be done than just chanting what has happened. Cannot we except our existance and move on?


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 13, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Mir Saheb: You missed (whether purposely or otherwise) what people feel and think in Muzafarabad.....


Name: Zahra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Suman: Very Nice Saying!


Name: suman - May 13, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   I tried looking back just a few years and discovered that a temple, a gurdwara, a mosque, a church and two buddhist statues have been destroyed by people who hate. It is a crying shame to hear the same old sentiments repeated ad nauseum from decade to decade, from generation to generation. Certainly, understand the past. But learn something from it as well. If each person would look into their own self and try to get rid of whatever hatred/suspicion/prejudice they have the world would surely be a better place. "Until you have done something for humanity, you should be ashamed to die." Horace Mann.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Faraz Mir,

I must give Balochs credit for celebrating May 28th as "Black Day". Not that GOP needed their permission to explode nukes in Chaghi, but because only fools will celebrate their own death! As far as PPP is concerned, the ethnicity card is their final resort now. Somehow, I am not surprised to hear that. Rather, I was betting on it.

I would maintain my stance regarding pooling of resources and sharing revenues on equitable basis to evenly develop Pakistan. We are all in the same boat and maintenance of the same cannot be selective.

I lament underdevelopment of Balochistan in particular. But believe it or not, Balochis have their Mirs, Bugtis and ilk to blame for their lagging behind. I have exhausted my energies on another forum discussing this issue in detail. I will leave room for Zhara to shed more light on that, as I have too much on my plate right now off the forum.

I don't agree on language issue. There is no need to teach curriculum in regional languages of no economic consequence in schools. English should be made primary medium of instructions from very beginning. That way poor whose children cannot attend English Medium school will have a fair chance of competing in the marketplace where English rules. Learning Urdu should be optional along with other regional languages. Government gets defensive on the language due to the fact that “nationalists” exploit this as a divisive issue.

Regards


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra,

OK! I was just setting the records straight. When you say Pakistan should, it implies that Pakistan is not doing that thing like hanging on to its minorities in this case, which is untrue. Sectarian killings are indeed very shameful and sheer terrorism with wider conspiracy. But let me tell you when evil strikes nobody can protect the victims (leave God). Even the most powerful nation on the face of planet couldn't protect those innocents trapped in the WTC...


Name: Bali - May 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Bawa ji, I think its an excellent idea...actually I would like to try and get hold of a copy.

Shikra, I totally agree with you. The picture in Punjab's universities though is looking less and less rosy. So many youth that favour Hindi over Punjabi, calling it more refined and sophisticated, unless things change soon, the future does not look bright. As these students are the future for Punjab.

Imran: History is important, accurately written. Its a sad but true fact that a huge majority of Punjabi youth view Pakistani's as an enemy regardless of whether they are Punjabi's or not. Perhaps biased versions of history are to blame partly, such as one sided accounts of violence and media propoganda all of which takes place in Pakistan too.

Shikra ji tusi bilkul sahee kehnde ho..lekin saanu PunjabiaaN nu akal pata nahi kad aunee a. When I see images of Punjabi soldiers going to war with Punjabi's on the other side, I really wonder do they know whose war this really is? Apni baali charaun nu hamesha maaurE hunde a, te hakk mangan vich piche. Always we pick a side to stick with, sometimes Muslim league, sometimes congress, when will we stand on own side, with our heads up high?


Name: Shikra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Punjab has long been considered to be the doormat of Hindustan, it has suffered in almost every atrocity connected with south asia, but the deep culture and faith of the Punjabis has always prevailed. We have always been looked down upon by Urdu and Hindi speaking bigots, but that deep rooted culture has so far survived. Take for instance the sikhs, they have long been used to defend their country for centuries given their lives for what they believe is just. For What? to have their holiest shrine destroyed by the same people that it has fought and protected for centuries. It is up to us punjabis on both sides to protect our language and culture from these bigots by teaching our children and making them feel proud of their culture.


Name: Zahra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   [>>"a) Pakistan will maintain its identity as a country with a Muslim majority, but will not let go of its minorities."
Is it not already so? Pakistan IS a majority Muslim state with minorities' status restored through "Joint Electorate". Pakistan never drove its minorities out or "let go" of them as such. Considering what's going on in Gujrat, I think minorities are far better off in Pakistan than in so-called secular democracy across the border. During partition, some miscreants took matters into their hands in reaction to [b]empty trains[/b] that were sent to Pakistan. But those were the times of chaos and Quaid-e-Azam made it his utmost priority to restore law and order situation. There is definitely a wider conspiracy behind recent spate of sectarian killings. Maybe a blow back of Kashmir policy?
Imran: Whatever is happening in India is brutal and cruel and disgusting, but I am not interested in India and its Internal Anarchy. There is a lot of activity on our end to keep us busy. I am sick and tired of hearing what Quaid'ae'Azam said and what ended up happening. Pakistan's irony was that both Jinnah and LAK did not survive longer to fine tune and assist the country. You are being defensive by saying Pakistan never did this or that. Do not take that route. Pakistanis are killing their own people in the name of religion, because they offer namaz differently or they have separate mosques and this and that...how the hell can we think of providing any other community/minority any safety when our own Muslims' lives are in jeopardy. Your perspective sounded to me like my uncle's. There is no way the Pakistani Nation is going to go back and start opening the chapters from Jinnah's speeches and reciting them. 50 plus years have passed. OK! We should thank Jinnah for giving us an identity, but mourn the fact that we did not have the vision to equitably manage and preserve that identity. Please do not forget why Pakistan's name has been on the headlines of International Media. It's not because the Pakistanis have been found worshipping Jinnah's words or adopting the path that Jinnah envisioned. It's way off from the envisioned route.


Name: Zahra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Faraz Mir: An Enlightening and Well Stated Perspective. There is no need to be apologetic for bringing up your views. No one is bound to follow the topics everyone else wants to discuss. There can be multiple topics under discussion simultaneously. My take.
I do not agree with everything you have stated. I will come back with my rationale.


Name: Safir Rammah - May 13, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Friends: Courtesy Mr. Sajid Nadeem who typed and web designed it, we have just posted one and only ustad-e-Punjabi ghazal Pir Fazal Gujrati's complete book "Dhoongey Paindey" with 100+ of his masterpiece Punjabi ghazals in Shahmukhi script on APNA web page.


Name: bawa - May 13, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Bali and others:
After reading all the partition posts, I think I really must type up extracts from the book onPunjab by Cunningham and perhaps Apna could have it in the articles, a fascinating description of the distribution of peoples and lands, occupations, religions at the time of M. Ranjit Singh, Do you think its worth it?
Bawa.


Name: Dr. Javed Zaki - May 13, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Faraz Mir: A good historical analysis of ethnic issue in Pakistan, but we need to integrate it with class analysis. An autonomous provincial rule dominated by "the ruling class" will not bring the real autonomy/freedom of people in general. There is higher likelihood that the exploiting nature of system will prevail.


Name: Faraz Mir - May 13, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
My URL:
Location: Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir     USA/Pakistan
Comments:  
I will have to slightly disagree with Zahra and Imran Ahmed here. I don’t want to hijack this forum for this discussion too much, but wanted to point something out.

Yes, its is true that there is some hypocrisy in the viewpoints of the nationalist people in the provinces when they blame Punjab for everything and also allege a Punjab conspiracy against them. However these feelings exist, and are quite prominent in Southern Pakistan especially, in Sindh and Balochistan.

There was a time that people in Pakhtukhwa (or NWFP as our benevolent government likes to call it) under the leadership of Abdul Ghaffar Khan, where decidedly anti-Pakistan and had strong desires for independence, however that trend has somewhat been reversed over the years as more and more Pushtuns were given the opportunity to join the civil service, police and military. The Afghan war where Pakistan played a part in helping Pushtuns also played its part. No one would ever have imagined a time when the far-left Awami National Party of Wali Khan would support a military government, but today that is exactly what has happened!

So, as you see, this talk of ethnic imbalance and dominance by one federating unit has as much to do with perceptions of people then with reality. People in Balochistan and rural Sindh do not have much to show for their prosperity. Balochs have to travel all the way to Karachi from their homes to get even basic medical treatment, and roads in Balochistan are nothing to marvel about. So, why would Balochs blame Punjab for this? Simply because it is a fact that the Army is predominantly from the so-called “martial belt” in Punjab and some from Pushtunkhwa and this same Army has ruled us for most of Pakistanis existence, either in the ruling chair or from behind the curtain. And there have been historical mistakes that have happened with Balochistan and its relationship with Pakistan. When he rest of Pakistan celebrates “Youm-i-Takbeer” on May 28 for the nuclear tests, Balochs celebrate that as a “Black Day”, marking how Balochistan has been used a test range site by Pakistan without their permission and how Balochistan gas and minerals are “Stolen” by Punjab with little royalty fees giving back.

Now do I agree with this line of thinking? No, not entirely, while sure there are real issues and grievances where the overwhelmingly Punjabi bureaucracy ignores it’s own people, what to say of smaller provinces, this does not mean that there is a Punjab conspiracy to subjugate others. But tell that to the Sindhi who believes that Punjab is stealing their Sindhu (Indus) River, even though that is somewhat of an over-exaggeration.

My point is this. These perceptions of injustice exist in the smaller provinces, but as seen in the way Pushtunkhwa has in large part gotten over this (but they still demand autonomy and say that Punjab is discriminating against them on the issue of wheat, and electricity royalty etc.) and no longer overwhelming anti-Pakistani, the same can be accomplished in the rest of Pakistan. And for this there needs to be a structural change in governance, with heavy doses of decentralization, devolution, and autonomy. All this was guaranteed to the provinces in the 1940 Lahore resolution, but our leaders went back on there words soon after. And there is almost complete unanimity in places in Sindh for instance over the granting of provincial autonomy. Even the Pro-Musharraf politicians like Haimda Khuro, Pir Pagara, Mustapha Jatoi recently called for this in a Sindhi Solidarity Conference. Even PPP Sindh Party is sounding more and more like its nationalist/separatist cousins like Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz in demanding rights from Punjab and central government.

So, weather Punjab means well or not in controlling Pakistan, it’s really a moot point, because the other provinces don’t feel such. If there is true and equal representation of all provinces in the government and the Army, and the people feel that the government not only represents them but also is looking out of their interests, cultural, lingual and political rights, and the well being of their provinces with action and results visible on the ground, peoples opinion of not only Punjab, but also Pakistan will eventually change. In fact, most of the nationalists leaders have said that if they get their autonomy and right within Pakistan, they will have no reason to ask for anything else or independence. People just want to be able to be masters of their own destiny. They want to learn and use their own languages while respecting Urdu as a national language, but they want their languages to have equal status as Urdu. This can be easily accomplished as long as the Army, the so-called defenders of our “ideology”, gives up on the false notion that Urdu is the language of Sub-continental Muslims and with Urdu dominance, Pakistan will wither away as state. Will, Pakistan managed to lose East Pakistan when we failed to recognize Bengali as an equal language.

Why am I so passionate about my point of view? Simply because I know that the only solution for Pakistan is as a multi-national federation where each provinces has equal rights and feels truly as a part of a untied country. Will this end injustice, corruption and political misconduct? No, it won’t, but at least people will start blaming their own provincial leaders for their problems instead of conveniently dumping everything on Punjab’s doorsteps. And as I foresee it, that as we, the ruling classes, give the provinces more rights, eventually over time, they themselves will want to be more tightly integrated into Pakistan, instead of the government having to force “unity” and “Pakistaniyat” on them. Ignoring these voices obviously led to 1971 and there is no point in repeating that blunder.

Once again I am sorry to be using this forum for non-Punjabi related endeavors, though I would argue my post is somewhat related to Punjab well-being.


Name: Bali - May 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   A continent of sheep, in 50 years one movie about Sardar Bhagat singh! ONE! ..........and then in 2002 7 movies about him set for release at the same time. God help us...does anyone have a mind of their own?


Name: Bali K Deol - May 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Imran: your statement taken in context of the entire paragraph subtly perhaps yet clearly insinuates that violence in Pakistan was only a reaction to violence from across the border. This is a blatant mistruth. The truth is that violence occurred sometimes as reaction to violence but on both sides there were people ready to light the flames of hatred. It is not a good idea to wear rose tinted glasses when viewing ones own people, not if you really want to move forward. It is not possible to move forward without laying to rest yesterday’s ghosts, and this cannot be done without understanding past history, faults and all.

I abhor the state sponsored terrorism that has been going on in India for the past 20 years, and by no means am I an Indian sympathizer, but I do not for a second think that if the shoe was on the other foot the situation would be different. We don’t have to go far back into India’s history to reverse the face of the victim and the angressor. The point I’m trying to make is we need to examine our attitudes and figure out why this is. Dullabhatti is right, why do we find riots acceptable, why is murder and genocide explained away when their is a religious agenda.

As for your example of minorities being better off in Pakistan, I can agree with you with the way things currently are, yet I don’t believe for a second that they wouldn’t suffer just as much if they were not clearly a visible minority. Many of my Pakistani friends say to me sometimes, Sikhs would have been better off with us than with India, I usually just smile, and am not convinced. Most people still have not forgotten the stories of living under Mughal rule in Punjab. As people who let religion cloud our judgment, and commit crimes against humanity…none of us is free from guilt. Let us not forget that we may be in separate countries but we come from the same stock, and are the same people, including all our negative and positive character traits.

So rather than talking about who is better off, our energy would be better utilized in finding solutions to the core issues, so far in our part of the world it has been a case of the strongest suppresses and oppresses the weak.

Quaid –e Azam may have tried his best, but actions on the street spoke loudest, and when he could not safeguard lives, just as the Congress could not on the other side, people ran for their lives, face it, nobody finds it easy to give up their ancestral home, lands, properties, etc… In 1947, Sikhs constituted only 13% of the Punjabi population yet owned 40% of the land and produced 2 thirds of the crop, many were business men in Lahore, do you really think they left behind their life’s work because they were not running for their lives? Because they were not being pushed out? Personally I think that Jinnah’s vision never became a reality, he must have looked on in horror as the dream turned to a nightmare before his eyes. Although I wish partition had never happened, I do hope his actual dream is realized eventually. There are only two examples in the world where a country has been carved out of an existing country, Israel and Pakistan and both parts of the world(not countries) at least half a century later are still in turmoil.

Jinnah “ An individual is Punjabi or a Bengali before he is hindu or Moslem. They share a common history and culture and economy. You cannot and must not divide them, it will cause endless bloodshed and trouble” This was his argument to Mountbatten in not dividing Bengal and Punjab but having them all under Pakistan, by the same rule, would his whole concept of an Islamic nation be flawed?

In March 1946, 3000 Sikhs were slaughtered in Lahore, because one Sikh had shouted publicly a derogatory about the yet to be created Pakistan. They were laid out like pheasants. Was this is a reaction to empty trains arriving? There are much earlier recorded instances of mass murder, rape and conversion..which I can give you sources for if you are interested.

It was hard for me to stomach some of the atrocities the Sikhs perpetrated after partition, but I did. Its time for us to realize that none of us is somehow holier than the other, and accept responsibility. Its too bad dullabhatti ji that nobody was ever brought to justice, just as in recent years no one has been brought to justice for genocide of Sikhs and Muslims in India. In this part of the world, the hypocrisy is blatant, they shout the name of God in so many languages, yet where there is the value on human life, its there only when someone is the same faith as us.

I think I’ve broken just about every rule on the board now, sorry Safir.

Imran, if you’d care to take this up with me in private I’d be happy to continue, and give you some sources that are a little less unbiased in their coverage of actual events.

Again, I just want to stress, this is not the blame game, but unless we can understand previous history, and lay those ghosts to rest we will carry them with us as emotional baggage with no hopes of a real future where the chances of this happening sometime again are next to impossible.

Btw, to finsih on a light note, eternal justice truly is sweet, because all the people that participated in rape, murder, and violence against fellow brothers and sisters, regardless of whether they were Sikhs,Muslim or Hindu's...can all look forward to a hot, humid dwelling in the depths of hell, what will they do partition that when they can't get along? OOps of course, it probably takes a century to get over the shock, as I'm sure they all thought that the killings were in defence of Ram, Mohammed, and Guru Nanak devi ji, which would surely qualify them seats in heaven. Amen.

Regards


Name: DullaBhatti - May 13, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   There has never been any official investigation of the biggest crimes against civilians during the partition and not a single person punished. That says a lot in itself about the people in control of the governments on either side...meaning...both sides were OK with what happened. And nothing has changed since then...people of the sub-continent have well accepted the principle that.."if one person kills another..it may be crime but when 20 kill another one of the opposite religion, it is a riot..and riots are holy." We worship riots. We glorify riots. We are amongst the people who accept explainations for murders. achha eh gall si phir theek ay, maar diyo.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji,

I am not defending perpetrators of violence. But empty trains from across the border did fuel the violence. Maybe there should be a fact finding mission to take us through what really happened, just for the sake of departure from tradition if nothing else. But by looking at the frequent government sponsored systematic extermination of minorities across the border, I would maintain that minorities are better off in Pakistan regardless of their low numbers.

Quaid-e-Azam tried his best to convince minorities to not leave Pakistan, but they did so anyway. Communal violence did play a role in that. But, I think it was due to their own convinction that the nascent state of Pakistan will fail and plunge into chaos soon after its creation that might have compelled them to immigrate to relatively greaner pastures, which is fine...

I don't think, in my post anywhere, I have supported slapping religious laws as such. I am myself totally in the favor of seperation of church and state. So, no disagreement there.

Regards


Name: Bawa, - May 13, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Gursharan, Shikra:
Here is the link to one of the sites selling the cd
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=TASCD-82
http://www.quanta.com.br/subgrupo_details.asp?cod=19

this is what they say in one of the blurbs
Vocals Welcome to the colourful world of the land of five rivers - the Punjab in Northern India. The vocals on CD1 reflect the timeless splendour, tradition and unique heritage of this area. The producers have tried to retain the delicate feel, skill and passion of vocalists who, between them, embody the widest variety of singing styles in the field of Indian music. From the subtlety, dexterity and sheer expressiveness of an 'Alaap' from a Classical Indian Raga to the raw energy of the 'Hek' of a Punjabi Folk song, Deepest India's vocals CD truly provides a definitive collection of all that typifies the Indian Vocal tradition.

And just look at the contents list!!!
There follows a list of all the track headings for Disc 1 (NOT in order of appearance on the CD). Please see the Glossary for explanation of Indian terminology.
Harikrishan Lal - Agaaz (Classical)
Meena - Maani (Semi-Classical)
Sohan Lal, Bibi Swaran Nooran & Master Dilbahaar - Sufani (Qwaali)
Bibi Swaran Nooran - Pardesi (Punjaabi Sher)
Waljesh Khan - Ajanata (Semi-Classical)
Ashwini - Skriti (Semi-Classical)
Seema - Dukhib (Bhajan)
Joginder Diwana - Koka (Punjaabi Folk)
Vintage - Karnatic (South Indian)
Sohan Lal - Beparwa (Punjaabi Traditional)
Harikrishan Lal - Daasi (Classical)
Meena - Bhawaani (Classical)
Master Dilbahaar - Ishaq (Urdu Sher)
Shyama - Joom (Hindi Popular)
Joginder Diwana - Yaar (Punjaabi Folk)
Sohan Lal, Bibi Swaran Nooran & Master Dilbahaar - Fariaad (Religious Qwaali)
Bibi Swaran Nooran - Heer (Punjaabi Traditional)
Various - Vadia (Misc.)
Master Dilbahaar - Rangia (Punjaabi Traditional)
Bibi Swaran Nooran - Raanjan (Punjaabi Sher)
Harikrishan Lal - Pukaar (Classical)
Ramesh Nussiwal - Baabla (Wedding Song)
Seema - Chamka (Punjaabi Traditional)
Ashwini - Saregana (Classical)
Master Dilbahaar - Larka (Urdu Sher)
Harikrishan Lal - Benti (Classical)
Joginder Diwana - Hek (Punjaabi Folk)
Seema - Maanlo (Semi-Classical)
Sohan Lal - Sassi (Punjaabi Sher)
Bibi Swaran Nooran - Kooli (Punjaabi Traditional)
Ashwini - Bhool (Urdu Ghazal) Various - Horbols (Spoken poetry and word)
Sohan Lal, Bibi Swaran Nooran, Master Dilbahaar - Baat (Qwaali)
Harikrishan Lal - Ghata (Classical)
Master Dilbahaar - Sonwaji (Punjaab Traditional)
Bibi Swaran Nooran - Sauda (Punjaadi Geet)
Joginder Diwana - Charkha (Punjaabi Folk)
Seema - Rabba (Wedding Song)
Vintage - Dharmik (Sikh Religious)
Nirmal Singh Bharkheela - Pataseh (Punjaabi Folk)
Joginder Diwana - Badan (Punjaabi Sher)
Harikrishan Lal - Daya (Classical)
I really haven't gpt much more information as yet. Thanks for the anecdote on Bibi Nooran, though. In a way it is an embodiment of her free spirit, or a sad life. I also didn't know about the daughters, I will keep a look out when I am next in Punjab.
Bawa.


Name: Bali - May 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Imran: With reference to your remark about certain miscreants reacting to 'Empty Train's'. Many on the other side of the border would say the same thing in their own defence. Its a dangerous game once we start saying things like that. Playing the blame game, or arguing who is better off is simplistic to say the least. Many that left Pakistan would argue they had no option, and could envisage no future in that land at all, besides the non-muslim percentage of your population is minute. Hence problems across the border will seem more pronounced.

I personally think a countries law should not be based on religion, as soon as this happens, a heirachry is created. In BC a couple of weeks a Muslim family decided to take to court the Provincial government because there son had to say the Lords prayer, they are suing for mental anguish. Canada is a multi-cultural melting pot, and aside from learning about other religions and cultures, a certain religion should not take precedence in the running of the state. I believe in an equal, progressive, and healthy society religion should be left at home, and practiced in private.

Anyways I am straying, I try and stay away from religion on this board, but wished to make a strong point about the blame game, about judging each other, by the others failures, and especially about even subtle defence of the motives of perpetrators of violence.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahara,

>>"a) Pakistan will maintain its identity as a country with a Muslim majority, but will not let go of its minorities."

Is it not already so? Pakistan IS a majority Muslim state with minorities' status restored through "Joint Electorate". Pakistan never drove its minorities out or "let go" of them as such. Considering what's going on in Gujrat, I think minorities are far better off in Pakistan than in so-called secular democracy across the border. During partition, some miscreants took matters into their hands in reaction to [b]empty trains[/b] that were sent to Pakistan. But those were the times of chaos and Quaid-e-Azam made it his utmost priority to restore law and order situation. There is definitely a wider conspiracy behind recent spate of sectarian killings. Maybe a blow back of Kashmir policy?

>>"b) Culture dictates or will drive the regional identity and that regional identity as a whole will form the national identity. This takes us back to the point that Faraz Mir brought up: Having autonomous provincial governments. "

It already does. Punjabis are still Punjabis and Sindhis are Sindhis and so on and passionately (for most part) share the collective identity Pakistani. There is a wrong perception that GOP suppresses cultural identities. In fact it has made great efforts to preserve Lok Virsa of all Pakistan. Scholars have spent countless man-hours in scouring the length and breadth of Pakistan to collect folk traditions. Being a nation state the government's views will of course differ with some of the people on this forum vis-à-vis language. But overall, it has done a good job of preserving local cultures. If people themselves choose to pass up on some of the culture in their religious zeal, then that's not the government's fault. Is it?

I am for limited provincial autonomy. We must pool our resources together and share the revenue to even out the development. The development in Pakistan has been so uneven that it will create further strain on developed areas of the countries if you deprived backward areas of development. People in Sarhad or other less developed areas shouldn't have to go to Karachi to make a living. So there should be autonomy in some areas, but certain areas should remain under the center's control.

Couldn't agree more with you on c. There should be the severest of punishments for the perpetrators of sectarian violence.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zhara,

Of course there can be a balance. Take for example eating habits; pork and wine is haram in Islam, but in some cultures like Bosnia, Muslims consume pork and induldge in wine. That aspect shouldn't have remained untouched by dogma. Whereas, there are other cultural practices that can coexist in harmony with religion as long as they do not violate the tenents of religion. That's the sort of balance, I am talking about. Makes sense?


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra, There is so much focus on the ruling "elite" in Pakistan, because they have ripped the national exchequer of by siphoning "Aids" monies offshore and brought the financial system at the verge of disaster by securing huge loans with the intention of never paying them back, using their political clout, of course. Do you disagree with that well-established fact?


Name: Zahra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   In short, what the future governments should do is the following:
a) Declare that religion is a personal matter and will not be and cannot be imposed. It's between God and His creations. Pakistan will maintain its identity as a country with a Muslim majority, but will not let go of its minorities.
b) Culture dictates or will drive the regional identity and that regional identity as a whole will form the national identity. This takes us back to the point that Faraz Mir brought up: Having autonomous provincial governments.
c) Anyone involved in Sectarian Violence will be shot dead in the main chowk. People who commit any such violences will be treated with the utmost penalty. This will have to be introduced to renew the thought process and bring the masses to a right state of mind. Spreading the message: Be it Shia or Sunni, both are Muslims.


Name: Zahra - May 13, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: Your critic is back with full fervor :) Your argument on a "right balance" between culture and religion is a weak argument. It's weak because there is no standard for right balance. If I have a squint then I won't have the same definition of right balance as you have. If I do not suffer from that syndrome then still I can or will hold a different perspective than yours - in short, my right will not be 100% your right. It may be 80% but not 100%. When Muslims cannot be categorized on the basis of practice across the board, how can you create harmony by saying that we need to have a right balance. Hope you got my drift. I understand your intent but I am pointing out a glitch in this well stated intent.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   PS: Perhaps I should make it clear that by "elites", I mean the ruling elite. No offense to those who made it big on their own. Then again rest of us might think high of themselves, but in reality they belong to the same slave class regardless of their big jobs. Just wanted to make it clear. I tend to think that either you are a king or a commoner.;) Hope that helps...


Name: Zahra - May 12, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   My disgust with the word, elite. One never hears that much focus on elites and crooks in the West, whereas in our sweet little East there is so much emphasis on the "e for elite" that it is a shame as well as a sham. We have not developed in any avenue or from any angle except for chanting the mantra, e for elite. Who the hell are these elites? Unless the Pakistanis would not change the qibla of e for elites to e for educated and enlightened, there is no hope for any positive and progressive restructure. It's another waste of time and money and efforts and hopes and aspirations.


Name: Zahra - May 12, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   My disgust with the word, elite. One never hears that much focus on elites and crooks in the West, whereas in our sweet little East there is so much emphasis on the "e for elite" that it is a shame as well as a sham. We have not developed in any avenue or from any angle except for chanting the mantra, e for elite. Who the hell are these elites? Unless the Pakistanis would not change the qibla of e for elites to e for educated and enlightened, there is no hope for any positive and progressive restructure. It's another waste of time and money and efforts and hopes and aspirations.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Faraz Mir,

I partly agree with your charge against Punjabi elites for usurping commoner's rights. But they are not alone in this atrocity. In elite circle there is no distinction between Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashtun, or Baluchi. They are all the same: USURPERS and SWINDLERS. Since Punjab is the most populated and it's elite were way ahead than anybody else in licking British's you know what, so we have more of them. But it's equally atrocious to lump masses of Punjab for the crimes of few.

I agree with Zahra that there has to be some level of centrifugal forces to keep all the provinces in the right orbit. Besides, these are the times of pooling resources together to compete effectively instead of making "dhai eent ki alag masjid". That's a no win situation for everybody.

Also culture cannot and shouldn't remain indifferent to religion. However, there must be a right balance so that religious dogma doesn't overwhelm the cultural identity. I think Pakistan is in a unique position to exploit it's cultural and religious affinity and benefit from regional groupings like SAARC and RCO.

Best Regards


Name: Zahra - May 12, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   "If more Punjabis take this route they will be able to free not only themselves from the ruling military junta, cultural supression, and religious extremism, but the same rights will also be granted to the smaller provinces in Pakistan eventually."
Faraz: I think on a low level there is a strong identity based on culture, on a high level it may not seem very prominent. I do not think that it has anything to do with suppression, it is more to do with adaption. Also, there is no guarantee that if one province receives the due treatment, the others will be awarded the same.
[The only hope for Pakistan is if we recognize that Pakistan is a multi-national state and provincial autonomy is the need fo the day as per the 1940 Lahore Resolution.]
This I completely agree with. But there is another factor here, there are a lot of provinces with qibla in opposite direction and have lawlessness to an extreme; if the feds do not intervene those provinces would go and join hands with across the borders. By drawing a border, we cannot cut off ties or blood relations, but there is risk. Certain parts of Pakistan are held tightly with the country by the federal govt, in my opinion. I can be wrong if it is otherwise.
[Sadly, the ruling military and many Punjabi rulers still are not willing to grant this right to the people.]
I disagree with your above pessimism and views. I have a few Bihari friends from KHI. They lament their deprevation and put the blame on Punjab. The KHiites have all the rona pitna but no action. I asked one friend that should not your locals or the ones in power be interested in KHI and its halat'ae'zaar and there was an honest respone: "THEY ARE NOT. And when we see Punjab prospering there is a sense of hurt and depression." Well, I had never ever understood the nuances of provinces till I came to the US and met Pakistanis who were born and bred in different parts of Pakistan. The best part was that deep down inside there is and there will be a sense of unity. Unfortunately, it is in jeopardy every now and then due to criminal elements in the society.


Name: Faraz Mir - May 12, 2002
E-mail: mir@myrealbox.com
My URL:
Location: Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir     Pakistan/USA
Comments:   I came across this website some weeks ago. I am very happy that enlightened Punjabis are finally looking towards there culture instead of religious ideology.

If more Punjabis take this route they will be able to free not only themselves from the ruling military junta, cultural supression, and religious extremism, but the same rights will also be granted to the smaller provinces in Pakistan eventually.

The only hope for Pakistan is if we recognize that Pakistan is a multi-national state and provincial autonomy is the need fo the day as per the 1940 Lahore Resolution. Sadly, the ruling military and many Punjabi rulers still are not willing to grant this right to the people.

Kind regards


Name: suman - May 12, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bali. I hav'nt checked any internet sites to buy music but have heard of the following. rediff.com, zibamusic.com, raaga.com. Check in google, check with Bawa - I think he is plugged into the music sites. I could, at any time, send you a taped copy of the CD that I have, with no problem whatsoever.


Name: Bali - May 11, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   MTM ji...meharbani ji towadi...aadrak vaali chaa banaun challi, suneya ki ohda assar changa hunda, agge vaaste eh towadi ditti hoyi sikhiya te zara dhiaan kardi a...

Suman: Can you tell me if you can buy that album somewhere online? Thanks!


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 11, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Folks,

Nostalgia is good every once in a while. But what about the real issues confronting us like the ever widening gulf between haves and have-nots amongst our country men (that alone by the way speaks volumes of our charitable nature) and other divisive issues like abominable caste system regardless of how subtle it may be?

Partition is an IRREVERSABLE reality that we must come to terms with. Our perspectives will never reconcile on this issue. For some of us it IS freedom, which we hold dear to our hearts and won’t exchange for anything in the world. So let’s move on and focus on the present and strive for better tomorrow.

Best Regards


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 11, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Folks,

Nostalgia is good every once in a while. But what about the real issues confronting us like the ever widening gulf between haves and haves amongst our country men (that alone by the way speaks volumes of our charitable nature) and other divisive issues like abominable caste system regardless of how subtle it may be?

Partition is an IRREVERSABLE reality that we must come to terms with. Our perspectives will never reconcile on this issue. For some of us it IS freedom, which we hold dear to our hearts and won’t exchange for anything in the world. So let’s move on and focus on the present and strive for better tomorrow.

Best Regards


Name: suman - May 11, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   There has been some discussion on the partition of India and Pakistan. Some of you may be interested listening to a CD that I recommend. It is called Paigham-E-Mohabbat and is a compilation of poems written by some of the great poets of the pre and post era. All the poems are about the partition and its toll on the individual. They have been set to music, beautifully, by Muzzafar Ali, sung by a variety of singers and recorded by NavrasRecords. The poems are in Urdu, some Bengali and Hindi - none in Punjabi.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 11, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran Ji: thanks for your call....but i was away due to the death anniversay of my mother.......
Bali Ji: Rabb Tuhanu Sahat Davay. I have came across the old nuskha for you in punjabi kahawataiN...but i dont know whether it will work or not because it may meant exclusively for punjab:

Cheet Wasaakh BhoowaiN
JaiTh HaaR SoowaiN
Sawaan BhadrooN NahawaiN
Assoo KateeN ThoRa KhawaiN
Maghar Pooh RooN HandawaiN
Maagh Phaagan Tail MalaawaiN
Tay Vaid Hakim Day Kadi Na JaawaiN
Db Ji: jeyounday rahoo.........i enjoyed your posts...


Name: Bali K Deol - May 11, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   (still getting over a horrible bout of flu, brain feels like its been fried.. so Safir pls remove my previous post)

Often when everybody is busy holding cultural events to celebrate Independence for India or for Pakistan…I find little to celebrate and instead cry for those that perished and those that languish still half between, mourning still today a lost innocence, and even more for those that think the deaths were sad but justifiable in light of the great reward…

I don’t know who wrote the following but I remembered it after reading your last post Dr Zaki ji…

14 te 15 August 1947 dee darmiyaani raat jo kise layi 43 saal lambi beeti….

Raat da mein jashan manaava kise taraN?

HaukE HaavE ban GayE
Jis raat dholE baahar dE
Jis raat kisE qatil hoyE
JinduE MinduE de pyaar dE
‘Jaago’ diyaN ThaaliaaN
Jis raat hoyaaN bechraag
Jis raat taaNdav nachiyaaN
BhangriyaaN diyan DholiyaaN
Os raat da mein jashan manaava kise taraN?

ShamliyaaN ne koheeyaaN
Jis raat DheeyaaN, kaNjkaaN
Tukde hoyi izzat Sanjh Dee
Ban burke, Pallu, chunniaaN.
Jis raat MaaN de peT vich
Ban barchaaN khoobiaaN LohriaaN
Os raat da mein jashan manaava kise taraN?

Jis raat hanjuaaN dee Ravi vagee
Jhelum – ChaanaaN toN, Satluj Beas Val
Sat asmaanaaN de dil cheervaaN
Dharti seene uthiyaa vaahgE da sal
Chan TaarE, Gach bhari sundE rahE
Jis raat havaa diyaaN siskiyaaN
Os raat da mein jashan manaava kise taraN?

BhaaiyaaN diyaaN laashaaN miD ke
Jad Takht te Bhai chaRE
Shaahi ShamaDaana vich jis raat
SaThaaN de HaukE balE
Lokthaa de zakhmi geet tE
Loon fahE jis raat dhaRE
Jhelum kandE shehnaiyaaN
JanmaaN kinaarE baNsiyaaN
Os raat da mein jashan manaava kise taraN?

‘Sat Sri Akal’ ChoN
Jis raat ‘Sat’ ghum hogaya
Allah hu Akhbar’ dee gooNj ne
Jis Raat ‘Allah’ roliyaa
Jis raat par Nanak Mohammed
RoyE Paa Paa GulvakriyaaN

Os raat da mein jashan manaava kise taraN?


Name: Javed Zaki - May 11, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   An Article published in today's 'DAWN'.

An Indian's home-coming

By Shamim-ur-Rahman "As I was approaching Sargodha in a bus, I was excited. I felt like coming back home... I want to build a monument of Indo-Pakistan friendship on the land where my family lived."

But can these sentiments of Karan Sawhny, the Delhi-based director, of International Centre for Peace Initiatives, become a reality, given the history of mistrust, conflicts and colossal waste on military build-up?

Karan's feelings were no different from that of mine and millions of those who had to go through the trauma of partition, leaving ancestral lands because our elders had thought it necessary for a cause.

Our conversation takes place at a time when tension on the borders of India and Pakistan, and the LoC is unprecedented and threatens regional peace. I was curious to discuss the various paradigms of peace, including the possibility of third-party intervention. Nevertheless I was also keen to know about Karan's short visit to his ancestral home in early 2001, when he had come here in connection with an international seminar on conflict resolution.

Did he spend an evening in the 'traditional' way of his forefathers in Sargodha and Bhera in the Punjab, where his great-grandfather Raibahadur Ramdas once enjoyed enormous power for being close to the British rulers? The answer was in the affirmative.

The tall bachelor of 50 years, who had previously visited Pakistan at least 10 times and now lives in New Delhi, travelling a lot in search of evolving paradigms of peace, Karan said his ancestors came from Central Asia, mainly from Afghanistan as soldiers. His family members also served as Dewan of Ranjit Singh and during Shahjehans period rose to the level of Mansabdar. They also served in the court of Hyderabad and Maharaja of Kashmir.

According to Karan, Raibahadur Ram Das Sawhny was the second son of Anand Das Sawhny who settled in Bhera in the early 1800. Anand Das came from Afghanistan from a kasba called Sawhny, situated north of Mazar-e-Sharif, about 60km from the Uzbekistan border. The family held a large jagir there.

Ram Das Sawhny's elder brother Major Ghulab Chand Sawhny was killed during the War of Independence of 1857. At the time Ram Das was only 12 years old. Their father Anand Das had passed away earlier. At this juncture their mother who was a widow with two minor sons decided to return back to Afghanistan to her kith and kin. At this point she met a sage who after looking at the boy Ram Das forbade her to return to Afghanistan saying he foresaw great tidings for the boy here and that she should stay in Bhera, for the boy's destiny lay here. Thus she stayed on.

Ram Das Sawhny began his career as a lawyer and soon earned respect all around him and far a field. His stature grew and grew for his principles. It is said, that people would come to him for settlement of their disputes rather than go to the courts to redress their grievances. His word carried authority and people respected and obeyed his dictum.

His popularity was soon acknowledged by the British government who honoured him and often sought his advice on important issues. The Lieutenant Governor of Punjab was invariably his guest on his estate in Salem.

Ram Das Sawhny had two sons, namely Laxmi Narain Das and Suraj Balram. Both of them were barristers and educated at Cambridge in England. Laxmi Narain Das was Karan's great-grandfather and Suraj Balram was Iqbal Sawhny's great-grandfather.

Raibahadur Ramdas who died in 1919, had left about 7000 acres of land besides a large family, a house in Sargodha, a haveli in Bhera, part of which was damaged in the floods of 1992.

He also recalls that the place was called Baba Ramdas da Khoo, named after his great-grandfather about 35km on the outskirts of Bhera where once the Sawhnys' threw lavish parties, especially for Christmas and the New Year.

He could not forget the chatri, remnants of which could be seen from the Motorway at Salem. Karan said the Chatri looks like a temple and had commemorative value. His cousin Iqbal Sawhny, who lives in Sargodha said it was actually a samadhi.

Raibahadur was very impressed by the British and had very close family relations with other leading families of Punjab, including the Noons, Hayat Khans and Tiwanas. Some of his family members also married English women and received education in Britain. This was one way of wielding political influence in Punjab where land owing aristocracy called the shots, said Karan who himself was educated in Britain.

Karan's uncle, Madanlal, served in General Zia's regime as advisor on minority affairs. Mr Madanlal is still alive. He survived a bullet wound while trying to save the Commissioner of Sargodha in 2000.

With his eyes focused on Buddha's poster, he talked about his family's fortunes in and around Sargodha and also mentioned the name of Govindpur village. During his visit some of the old people could still remember his grandfather and made him feel at home.

Karan could not ignore the ethnic and cultural affinity with Punjab. His mother's father came from Jhelum. Karan also referred to the Rohtas Fort and said that when he showed some pictures to his mother, she remembered every nook and corner of it, where she had spent her childhood.

Feeling nostalgic about his homecoming, Karan said very few Hindu families could feel that way. He said the beautiful house owned by his grandfather was still there on the Canal Bank in Sargodha. Karan's ambition is to make that place a symbol of Indo-Pakistan friendship. But can that dream become a reality when the two rivals are daggers drawn and there is a stand-off which has threatened not only their security but the security of the entire region?


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 11, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji,

Thanks, I will do so and hope that you get well soon!

Take Care


Name: DullaBhatti - May 11, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   akhaN wich aah tasveer
barhi purani jammi pai ay.

chauhN saalaN da baal saaN
vehRay dey wich saaday khohi si
chaachian, tayean, bharjayean
sara din othey kapRay dhowan
baal nahaavan,
karn chugliyan. mashkariyan.

lakk duwale mere si taRaagi
MaaN de hath wich thaapi sa'ee
lammay lammay reshami jey vaal si mere
phaRh phaRh vaaloN MaaN liyawe mainu
khoohi de thaRhe utte.
main vaal chhuDaa chhuDaa bhajjaN,
naahvaN na.

koThay uttoN Bapu mere takkeya.
"ni kuRiye, chhadd munDay nu!"
dabkeya su.

"Bapu ehday sir ch jooaN,
dass dinaN toN nahta naahiN".

"hai jhalli! ainnee jinni gall pichhay
munDay da saah sooteya.
mere naal ghall ehnu ajj,
sher mera nehar ch Dubkiyan laa ke aao."

MaaN de hathoN thaapi digg pai
te main chhaal maarke
Bapu de moDheyan te chaRh giya.


Name: Bali - May 10, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Imran........kee haal chaal? Mein chup isliye a ki mainu flu hoya hai....kise te kehan te mein chup karan vaali nahi..mere sarotiyaa nu puck ke vekhiyo :))

I'll be back..in the meantime you hold the fort...towadi shayari mere te bari pasand hai.


Name: DullaBhatti - May 09, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Follwing is an excerpt from a feature article in The Friday Times this week. TFT usually behaves if it is published from Paris or some other place and not Lahore. Its alienness and detachment from its surroundings and its culture is usually evident from the articles written by babu lokk(note the Top 10 this week) but this article by Omar Jamil has something of interest for us.

"I have been visiting the graveyard at Miani Sahib – situated in Lahore between the bustling areas of Mozang and Chauburji – for almost all my life, as most of my family, and the families of friends, are buried there. My childhood visits, with my father and sister, Nadia, every Thursday, were often accompanied by tales of how old and huge the graveyard was and of the various people that were buried in its grounds. While Nadia and father paid their respects at the graves of relatives long since turned to dust, I’d wander around aimlessly; sitting under trees, sometimes singing to myself, other times, lounging near my grandfather’s grave and having entire conversations with a man I’d barely known. As with all childhood things, I soon outgrew my fascination for Miani Sahib, abandoning the quiet serenity of the graveyard for the proverbial “sex, drugs and Rock ‘n’ Roll”. I went off to university, and after returning to Lahore, found myself “too busy” most of the time to accompany Nadia and Aba to Miani Sahib. Then, only a few weeks ago, I happened to attend a burial service in the graveyard. Although I had not visited for many years, the memories came flooding back. I decided then and there to pay the place a return visit – not only to pay my respects at the graves of deceased relatives, but also to regain a lost innocence of sorts. Together with Iqbal, TFT’s photographer, I set off on a warm, humid Wednesday afternoon. Being May 1, Labour Day, the streets were empty and we got to the graveyard pretty quickly. I had no idea where I wanted to start – or what I hoped to accomplish with the visit. So I parked my car and Iqbal and I set off to explore the graveyard on foot. It is hard to put into words the sense of peace that engulfs one almost immediately upon entering Miani Sahib. One has difficulty believing that the graveyard is located between two of the most heavily trafficked areas of Lahore. Apart from the occasional passing rickshaw, motorcycle or car, there is almost complete silence. Iqbal and I meandered through the graves, practically piled up one upon the other. We stopped a Majavar (the people who take care of the graves) to have a word with him and he told us that close to 6,000 people were buried in Miani Sahib annually. I asked how many graves there were and he said they were countless. He said the custom of cementing graves was relatively new – in “the good old days” all the graves were kacha, as a result of which they could be constructed piled up on top of each other. When I asked how long ago “the good old days” were and how old the graveyard was, he just laughed, “Sahib, yeh koi bhi naheen jaanta. Yeh Miani Sahib toh humaray lakar dadon se bhi ziyada qadeem hai.” (No one knows; this Miani Sahib is older than our ancient ancestors.) This brief conversation helped me gain some focus, and I decided on a destination – the grave of Punjabi folk hero Dullah Bhatti, a Robin Hood who had taken up the cause of his motherland and had rebelled against the Mughal emperor Akbar. There are many versions of Dullah Bhatti’s story. An old malang we met told us Dullah Bhatti lived in a thick forest called Rakh, between Gujranwala and Sialkot. During the reign of the emperor Akbar, a Hindu tried to settle a score with his brother and spread the rumour that his niece was very beautiful and would do credit to the emperor’s Muslim harem. When word reached the Mughal officers stationed in the area, they wanted to carry her off forcibly. The girl’s father sought the protection of Dullah Bhatti, who got her married to a young Hindu boy at a simple ceremony in the forest. He lit the sacred fire in keeping with Hindu custom and since there was no priest to chant the mantras, he broke into a song, composed extempore to add cheer to the occasion. Swaying slowly, the old malang started singing Bhatti’s song. The lyrics were in old Punjabi, the kind that fell out of use many moons ago, certainly some of the phrases sounded completely alien to my ears. Despite a lack of complete understanding of the substance, there was no mistaking the spirit. I felt the goose pimples rise on my arms as the old malang swayed from side to side, belting out Dullah Bhatti’s song with obvious passion. He then went on to regale us with stories of how Dullah Bhatti declared war on Akbar for murdering his father and grandfather. Iqbal and I walked on, towards Bhatti’s grave, the only sounds in our ears the chirping of the birds. At one point, we passed so near a nest of honeybees that the buzzing practically drowned out all other noises – I could almost feel it in the pit of my stomach, a slow, steady humming. The graveyard is massive, covering almost 175 acres of undulating land. It took us some time to get to Dullah Bhatti’s grave. We were later told by the graveyard’s administrative caretaker that prior to its acquisition by the government in 1962, much of the graveyard’s land had been taken over by squatters, and there was a time when it stretched beyond Chauburji, all the way to Saadi Bagh. The grave itself was surprisingly unassuming. I would have imagined that the final resting place of a cultural icon such as Dullah Bhatti would be slightly more ornate, but instead we saw a simple grey cement grave – a plain painted sign giving the date of his death – March 26, 1589. Based upon the date on Dullah Bhatti’s grave, the graveyard at Miani Sahib is at least 400-odd years old. During my conversation with the graveyard’s administrator, I learnt that Bhatti’s was not the oldest grave and there were far more ancient umarked ones. He said the graveyard was probably the oldest in the Punjab, if not the entire country, and that it most likely pre-dated Mughal Lahore."


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 09, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Bali Ji te MTM Ji,

Chup kiyon oo? Kujh sohnRe shair sunao, ik VILLAGE IDIOT di gallaN te dil mela na karo. They will try to tax your creativity whenever they feel their interests are at stake. Eh khush rehnde ne jado talwaraaN khichiaaN rainR te lokaaN diaN akhaaN te patiaaN bandhiaaN rehnR. Ki samjhe???

Rabb Wali


Name: Shikra - May 09, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bawa:Can you write down the e-mail address for SONOMA music as you mentioned in your post. I have been after more recordings of Bibi Nooran but the only songs I have of her are the 6 tracks on this site and 1 track from an album named 'Ashiqan De Geet'. I was working with the famous music director Charanjit Ahuja some years ago and I had the Bibi Nooran tape playing in my car while we were travelling together and he told me some gossip of how that recording was done. Although the music direction credit goes to K.S. Narula for that album, the Mandolin was played by Charanjit ahuja as he was working under K.S. Narula at the time. Nooran usually sang in an intoxicated state and this caused many problems for the studio musicians who were used to working with refined singers and set music pieces, her spontaneous singing style was more for live performances and singing in a studio just limited her abilities. If you listen carefully to her tracks there are times after a verse when the music piece should come in but she intervenes with a simple effortless alaap. No doubt she was an excellent singer and her daughters still live in Jallandhar and they sing in the same style as their mother.


Name: Furqan Malik - May 09, 2002
E-mail: sorry@hotmail.com
Location: Phoenix , AZ     USA
Comments:   Oh , yeah kia cheez hai..kitney dair sai parh raha hoon ..samaj hi kutch nahi aa rahey. Kia deemagh ki dahi bana di tum logoon nai. ..Kutch tu batawoo bahiyoo yeah cheez kia hai ???????


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 09, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Where are "discussions" ke dildada folks? Can't frame an argument or simply not interested in the topic under discussion. Though I suspect the former!


Name: Bawa, - May 09, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: LEIOA,      Spain
Comments:   Gursharan: Oh compnay da naam hae ZERO-G, based in the UK. But I can't find the address of the website, although the CD is listed in the website of SONOMA music, a Canadian magazine/company. The recordings sound fantastic, and they really do list many Punjabi folk singers and songs by Bibi Nooran that I had never heard of before. Lets see if we have any luck in getting it sometime.


Name: Zahra - May 07, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   My last post takes us back to the issue that Shikra has previously brought up - irrelevant posts. Despite the fact that this post may seem irrelevant due to its subject matter/contents, it's not irrelevant - this highlights to some extent the cultural thought process. I am not attempting to get my post validated but I just wanted to write in support of my previous post[of course, which was posted in a light hearted stride :D] I felt like posting it as I smiled a few times reading the intricacies. I also agree with Imran that in truly liberated societies/individuals these issues will not arise, regardless of the gender. But is reality the same that we like to imagine or would like to imagine? This is the dilemma.


Name: Zahra - May 07, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: I hope you will like the following. I just got it today :) The others are more than welcome to browse throught in their leisure.

A (beautiful) mind of our own
By SWOT (Single woman over thirty)
DAWN The Review May 2, 2002
One accusation us SWOTs are pretty used to is about our independence of mind and thought. It is the main hurdle preventing us from having achieved success in the marital market. Why intellectual independence is considered an asset in the case of men, but a disadvantage for women, is beyond me. Let me tell you about this guy I met a while back. Let's call him Mr Mindshare. After the introduction and dining-out-alone-together-to-get-acquainted routines, Mr Mindshare beat a hasty retreat on the following grounds: "She has too much of a mind of her own." In case you men out there aren't aware, we are all blessed by the Almighty with a mind of our own. One each thank you! There's one for everybody at production time, when we're being fashioned from clay and whatever else somewhere in the skies. Regardless of gender, we all arrive on planet Earth equipped with a brain that is exclusive to us. We are not required to share. I don't need to borrow yours, or anyone else's for that matter, because I have one of that's all for me. Can you imagine the confusion (not to mention the poverty of intellectual thought) that would have occurred if God had intended us to share brains? Picture Newton gazing at the apple, deep in thought and almost having figured out the gravity theory when along comes Mrs Newton wanting to borrow hubbie dear's grey matter. Instead of the Law of Gravity, all dear old Isaac would have had to bequeath to us might have been a recipe for apple pie! (By the way, wonder who's borrowed George W Bush's brain and not returned it.) And if the reverse is also true, that on occasion the female of the species gets the brain with instructions to share hers with her husband who hasn't been so lucky, then Mr Mindshare's unique theory explains the phenomenon of women thronging lawn exhibitions and sales at local hotels, snatching and fighting like cats over bales of cloth. They've probably lent their brains to their husbands that day. Come to think of it, there just might be some merit in Mr Mindshare's theory after all. The two-is to-one testimony clause in our religion may be in case the woman's brain is on loan to her husband. Bring along another woman, please, because my head's busy balancing the books for my husband. So thanks for the offer, Mr Mindshare. I may just come borrow yours if the one that I have 'too much of' needs to go to the workshop. If you have one of your own, that is. But seriously, why is a woman's mind such a threatening prospect? Isn't intelligence, otherwise known as good old-fashioned common sense, an advantage in a marriage? Especially if both partners are thus endowed? Imagine the extra work a man would have to do if his wife didn't have a brain. Keeping household accounts, for instance. If you've read Little Women by Louisa May Alcott, remember the early days in Dovecote cottage, when Meg just couldn't for the life of her figure out how much she'd spent on what, and John Brooks had to do it all for her? Or even Dora in David Copperfield. There was David wanting to write his novel, while Dora insisted that he help her with the accounts. Do husbands really want to come home from a tough day at the bank sorting out corporate clients' investments to find a beloved (but brainless) wife waiting with a household expense register to be looked into for the Rs 5,483 and 22 paisas that are not accounted for? Or having to decide the menu for next week's family dinner because darling wife hasn't got a 'mind of her own' to be able to make up? I personally don't think it ironic that Jennifer Connelly who played John Nash's wife received the Oscar this year in the critically acclaimed A Beautiful Mind while Russell Crowe went unawarded for his performance as the Nobel-prize winning, schizophrenic,mathematics genius. I think it's about time!


Name: Vijay Kapoor - May 07, 2002
E-mail: vkkapoor@hotmail.com
Location: Renton, WA     USA
Comments:   Hello Safir Ji: 7th annual Punjabi conference report made very interesting reading. It is very informative about thoughts and views of a vast spectrum of Punjabis of all ages and hues. I am very confident that APNA will come a long way in fulfilling its mission of creating an awakening and interest amongst Punjabis (both from east and west Punjab) about our rich and dynamic cultural heritage. One request on behalf of Punjabis like me who are illeterate(when it comes to reading or writing)to put the transliterated version of the poems recited in this conference and if possible to put the live rendering in the audio section of the web. Thanks.


Name: Bawa, - May 07, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: leioa,      Spain
Comments:   Gursharanji:
Oh company da naam hae Deepest India. Website mere computer wich gummi hoi ae; labb ke post kar devange.
Suman: Did you get my e-mail replying to yours? I don't know whether my modem is behaving itself these days. Please feel free to send any material whenever you like.


Name: Zahra - May 07, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: I appreciate your interest in reading my posts. In fact, I am impressed to read your observations on my light hearted thoughts. Keep it up! Thank You! :)
Regarding your kind suggestion, I must mention that a bird can be caged regardless of the status of that bird. Let's not assume that all lionesses have the freedom to cherish their own mind and go for a chehal qadmi. My arguments are spontaneous. I am not trying to counter yours :)


Name: gursharan singh - May 06, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, va     USA
Comments:   Hello Bawa Ji Ik vaari fer aap nu takleef de reha haan. aapne ik vaari gall keeti c ik cd baare jo ke south africa ton release hoi hai jis vich ke kaafi vadhia vocal samples han panjabi de. os company di website di information je pher to post kar sakon te badi hi meharbani.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 06, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra,

I forgot to address generalising and male insecurity part in your PS. I wasn't generalising, rather deducing from my past experiences of witnessing your frequent gender inequality crusades on other forums. Please replace that lioness analogy with the same!

On male insecurity or female insecurities for that matter, somehow, I am not concerned about being insecure about certain things or being wrong about half of the time. I consider it part of and parcel of being a human. I make mistakes sometimes, I think a little too many and by the grace of God pay for each single one of them, which is good sign. Seems like big guy is not holding back for the day of reckoning when it comes to paying me in kind.:-)

Adios


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 06, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra,

Well, I think Pholan Devi should have served time for her crimes instead of getting nominated and immortalized. But considering what’s in vogue vis-à-vis deliverance of justice and how bigger crooks make their way to the top in that part of the world that would be too much to ask. Attitude of masses towards justice is also to be blamed for this travesty of justice. Personally, I believe every criminal has “circumstances” and have done good in their lives to varying degrees, but that shouldn’t exonrate them from paying for their crimes regardless of their gender. My belief anyway! Now I have read you on other forums rising to the defense of women, which is a good thing and poor oppressed women (stark reality of our existence) of particularly our area could use more voices like yourself. But, sometimes, I feel you are wasting your energies targeting the wrong audience. Because, most of the visitors on these forum have been exposed to developed societies and generally do not seem to possess the mindset vis-à-vis gender equality that needs major overhaul. And if they are in reality then I must say they are bloody hypocrites and damn good pretenders. Your audience is our feudal lords and down trodden in the villages of Pakistan. Will you think about it next time before embarking upon your lioness analogies please?

Take Care!


Name: Zahra - May 06, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   DB: There are some people who are appealing when they speak or share their knowledge. There are others who look chalak and devious and shrewd. This swami jee looked like too much chamak damak. Then on the other hand, I have not come across many swami jees in my life so I do not know if that's how they mostly are. Still, I was not impressed by this fellow in anyway or shape. I must mention that he gave me a short darus on how rewarding it is to be caring towards your parents and etc etc...In fact, despite his chamak damuk he did say good things as well. But he was adamant that I sit and talk to him. I was not very comfortable doing that and moved elsewhere. While we are on the subject, somewhile ago I had spoken to another Sikh Gentleman on this board and had told him that I would like to ask a question. I never asked that question. It's something about forming impressions about people. I am very much moved by my gut feeling and I always listen and pay attention to it. This has been my practice since my childhood. Without going into the details of an encounter, I would just mention that I had an interesting encounter a few months ago and it was quite awakening. It was only for 15-20 mins at the most and the fellow vanished afterwards. By saying "vanished" I meant, left; yeh ja vo ja. He was perceptive and very detached. Asked me for money for a dharam shala somewhere in India. I gave him a reasonable amount, and interestingly he told me that he will give me the change, which I refused to take. With that person, it was a strange sense of contemplation that I was left with. But there were no regrets that why did I pay him or he could have been a fake person or any ifs and buts...This world is full of interesting people that one runs into every now and then. Sometimes, we do stop and listen; whereas, other times we do not. For the past few years, I have made it a habit, despite my impatient persona, to stop and listen. Just listening isn't enough. Stopping and listening has been very rewarding.


Name: Zahra - May 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: My analogy was pretty clear, in my opinion. I meant just like a suicide bomber did not opt for suiciding and bombing to get a kick out of it; similarly, P.Devi was not a Daku to scare kids. She was thrown into that role by her circumstances. That's how I perceive it. I would like to think, had she done x - y would have happened, had she gone to timbuktoo she would have been a good girl...now that she is dead, she should be remembered for both the good and bad she stood for than only the bad. My take! There was nothing to do with being a woman or her rights and etc etc...It was all to do with being a human being - well, yes on further classification, she was a female. So what ? Your interpretation was wrong! Thanks.
PS: I consider it male insecurity when a chap starts reading everything that a female writes as a defensive measure. Some people have a tendency to generalize. I suggest avoiding this approach. You never know...


Name: DullaBhatti - May 05, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   I came across this article in the friday times.

The Punjab Naujawan Mahaz, an organisation dedicated to the promotion of Punjabi language and culture recently came up with a beautiful Punjabi calendar, featuring six paintings by none other than Sabir Nazar, TFT’s very own talented cartoonist. Each painting epitomises the rich culture of the land of the five rivers, with various traditional Punjabi themes and motifs depicted in vibrant hues of blue, orange, red, yellow, green – all the colours of seasonal landscapes in the Punjab.

After his early education at Edwards College, Peshawar (where he first heard of the National College of Arts) Sabir came to Lahore and joined the NCA’s Architecture department. In his fourth year, Sabir abandoned architecture and moved to Fine Arts, which was more in tune with his talents.

At the time, the concentration of teaching at the NCA was more derivative of Western techniques. Sabir felt a need to introduce the traditional colours and techniques of Punjabi artwork into his pieces. Despite criticism from teachers and colleagues alike, he persevered, developing a unique style, incorporating traditional motifs and ethnic symbolism. He then branched out and included Indian and Gandhara influences in his work, setting it all in a twentieth century context. Given the lack, at the time, of a traditional medium of artistic expression, Sabir was inspired by Pakistani truck art.

For two years after his graduation, Sabir dabbled in landscape architecture and advertising. Then, in 1990, The Friday Time happened. A friend of Sabir’s was working at TFT as the cartoonist at the time. He asked Sabir to take over from him while he was on vacation. The rest, as they say, is history. Sabir has been with TFT ever since and is a valued member of the team.

Political satire came easily to Sabir. During his college years, he was actively involved in student politics; at the time, General Zia-ul-Haq was Chief Martial Administrator. Sabir was a vocal opponent of the martial law regime.

Sabir continued exhibiting his art throughout his stay with TFT, remaining the sole artist to work in a purely traditional context, using only indigenous influences. The Punjabi Council and the Punjab Naujawan Mahaz noticed Sabir’s work and asked him to illustrate their second Punjabi calendar.

The calendar is intriguing in that it is located in a purely Punjabi context – the days, months, even the year, are all in Punjabi and based on the Punjabi calendar. Every leaf of the calendar features two months, each on either side of one of Sabir’s traditional paintings. Below the illustration are verses from traditional Punjabi poets. This calender is a must have for any person hailing from this rich and lush province, the land of the five rivers.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 05, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Thanks to Dr. Saheb for writing the long explanation on the issue of animal instint as well as on the issue of human behavior. To my mind the issue was male dominance regardless of the creatures and characters. Any he did a well good job but the issue remains in form of illusions dreams or a vision full of thoughts. what i think is that the next century will be known as women's century and i have an logic. the logic is that from stone age till now one form or the other the physical power is still required to do various tasks and that is the reason male dominance is still there but with the development of further scientific tools, the physical dominance may not be a force to stay for all practical purposes and that will end the male dominance
also, the female population is growing in numbers, the are ahead of men in various fields and that will contribute to their success.
another scientific development is cloning which may elimate male mating requirement as it needs only women for delivery babies
i may be proven wrong but that how i look at it......


Name: DullaBhatti - May 05, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra, Swami ji was exercising the selective marketing techniques...aam taur te jawaan munDay kuRiyaN are very interested in knowing the future, just for the thrill of it:-)


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 05, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra,

We must unconditionally reject violence in it's entirety from all quarters. I got the impression from your "hastily" written post that you were condoning certain undesirable aspects of Phoolan Devi's behavior using the violence pepetrated by Palestinian Suicide Bombers on the grounds of desperation and "good" done by her for the destitute as an argument. Now I can understand the defense of Phoolan Devi from a "Woman of Power" persona (no pun intended and more power to you), but what I am trying to say is that the outcome of two wrongs is never right. That's all!

Regards


Name: Zahra - May 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: My argument was valid on both accounts. I wrote the last two posts in less than 10 mins therefore there is repetitionion and redundancy BUT there is not any illogical argument. Later,


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 05, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Ms. Zahra,

You are wrong on both accounts: "Phoolan Devi" and Palestinian "Suicide Bombers". Perseverance is the preferred way in times of great adversity. Politics of revenge never got anybody anywhere except getting them entangled in the vicious cycle of violence. Bloody Moses should have known that!

Regards


Name: Zahra - May 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Story II: Now, this is an addendum to my orange kaproan walae swami jee's episode. As we checked in, we got the news that the crew never made it so we will have to take the 12:50 am flight. The way I had sped from my friend's apartment at Berkley after a very nice meal, it could have landed me with a speeding ticket - but thank god I was saved. I told myself that there is a hikmut in everything. Abu started watching the News in the waiting area whereas I started calling a few friends that I could not meet during my trip. While I was on phone, I saw a very decorated Swami Jee in Zaa'frani Dress. In fact it seemed as if he had sprinkled some on himself. He took a seat very close to us and started chatting with Abu. After I was done with my phone call - 45 mins( at least ) I went to say Namaskar to the Swami Jee. It was unimaginable to hear the kind of Sanskrit he was using. I would not call it Hindi as he drove me nuts with his proverbial expressions. I started questioning him back and forth. He took out his book with translation my pressing questions and his rationale and asked me to read certain passages. Most of them talked about reincarnation and its flavor. I was fine with that. But then he started marketing his technique of reading the Janam Kundlis. Also, hinted me to get his address and provide him with specific information to make the J.K. I am usually curious to learn more about astrology, astronomy and palmistry but somehow I did not feel like discussing any of these with this person. Later on, I was asked to comment on the authenticity of the swami jee and I had no comments. Silence is Golden!


Name: Zahra - May 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   While waiting in the sitting room, I was browsing through the paper whereas Abu was talking to the gentleman sitting next to him. I went out to get the paper. In the meantime, I decided to get two cups of Latte as well. I carried the stuff back with me to the doctor's office. This time Abu was mahvae guftagoo with another gentleman, a sikh hazrat. After giving Abu his Latte, I sat down to organize my planner. Suddenly, I heard the conversation of Phoolan Devi and some criticism on her by this chap, who did not seem to me very educated. His argument was so damn pathetic that I interrupted him twice. O Jee Inna Nae Phoolan Devi(A Daku) Noon Tae Leader Bana Ditta See - Pur Jee Kadee Vee Sada Banda Nominate Ho Javae Tae Onnoo Maar Dendae Nae. Agur Panjabi Hindu Hovae Tae Theek Hae, Pur Agur O Sikh Hovae Tae Onnoo Khatum Kur Daevun Gae. I had no issues with his girya-o-zari on the latter issue, but I was appalled to hear his silly and callous remarks on Phoolan Devi. I intervened with my thoughts that the woman went through a lot and fought for destitutes like her. She got nominated and as far as I remember she did a lot of good work for the people of low caste. This irritating fellow had a sarcastic remark on his face and he uttered: Pur Woh Thee Toa Daku! I again gave a few examples and this time I quoted Palestinians. The episode of suicide bombers has been going on as people are frustrated to death and have no other way of retaliation. On hearing this the fellow went silent. But went back to his girya'o'zari.
Personally, I do not like choar and dakus, but if there is a good daku who knows how to help her people and has been doing that then one should have the back bone to give the devil its due. These regional phoon phaans are good for nothing.


Name: Zahra - May 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dr. Zaki: Main Taehae' Dil Sae Mauzarat Khwah Hoonh Upnee Ghalti Kee - I should have finished the story myself :)


Name: Javed Zaki - May 05, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Comments: The debate of Lion and Lioness with respect to differentiation in their activities and status:

To describe human behavior, (particularly related to gender role-distribution) with reference to animal behavior is not valid. This analogy is non-sense, because one is completely based on ‘instincts’ while other is ‘learned’ through socialization process. The propensity of animal behavior to change is limited by their physio-ecological environments, while human behavior is mainly driven by (1) human beings distinctive quality of intelligence, which is driving force for the development and the utilization of ‘logic’ and ‘reason’ by the use of language (another distinctive feature of human beings which separate them from animals). Historically, human beings gender role-distribution (socio-economic responsibilities) has gone through various stages, depending on the nature/level of social formation (socio-cultural development and its organization). At the level of ‘Hunters-gatherers society, the human gender role distribution depicted socio-cultural and economic responsibilities which were separate but of equal importance for their survival. However, with development of the institution of ‘private property’, the human gender roles evolved in reference to a kind of ‘power relationship’. Men generally being controller (owner) and disposer of property, his responsibilities were termed more important than of ‘women’.
During the ‘Tribal’, ‘Feudal’ and even quasi-industrial levels of social formations, women were confined to the so-called ‘private sphere’: Sometime on the pretext of the better socialization of children or their wrongly assumed mental incapacities (a stand which has wrongly been based on and augmented by religious and male biological superiority argumentation). But, this is all defined and designated by socio-economically male-dominated social set-up. In the majority of developing societies where the socio-economic and political attributes still characterize them as overwhelmingly feudalistic, the roles of women are under-valued (just supportive but non-economic in terms of capital amassing) despite of the fact that they have been observed to work between 12-14 hours a day. In the modern and post-modern societal context, the argument of male biological superiority has become completely obsolete. The development and the use of technology (electronic and computer based) in the production process do not require the biological power. Therefore, the dichtomy of human gender role/responsibility has no relevance. But, social observers, in general, have found that the change in social attitudes lag far behind the change in material forces (means of production). We tend to observe in the context of developing societies, although advanced means of production (capitalist) have penetrated into their economic lives their social behavior and attitudes remain at feudalistic level. The afore-mentioned lag, however, is further widened in the case of developing societies for the reason of the phenomena of ‘neo-colonialism’ (economic colonialism). The hegemonic power relations at the world level make economically and militarily powerful ‘developed’ nations (in fact their multinational corporations) to forcefully grab concessions to market their products. This has resulted in an artificial process of soico-economic changes in many developing nations. The process of soico-economic changes in these nations rather being dominantly driven by the interplay of indigenous socio-economic forces, has been activated differently, as described above. Another aspect of this argument related to the lag in economic activities and social attitudes is evident from the ruling classes of the developing societies. We generally observe a relative equality in gender-bases roles and responsibilities. The reason being that they are carefully socialized to be actively involved in this process. So, the socio-cultural and economic benefits of neo-colonialism do not trickle down to all classes. As a matter of fact, the neo-colonialist forces only make alliances with ruling classes because they tend to control the resources of developing nations and through kick-backs and bribes they can have easy access. Because this so-called democratic socio-cultural and political system (which is usually observed in the developed nations) does not take form in the developing nations. Hence, the recognition of the equal importance of gender-based socio-economic activities remains limited to the upper classes. Moreover, as females of the upper classes have relatively higher access to the advanced and quality education, their opportunities of economic worth enhances. Consequently, they are in better position to demand social recognition.
Although capitalist production process, not necessarily develop and recognize equal importance of gender-based socio-economic activities but resulting social atmosphere does contribute towards it to a great extent. But, the element of ‘social consciousness’ is the foremost important in this regard that also is necessitated by a real democratic social organization, both at the national and the familial levels, the logic and reason based secular educational system accessible to every member of the society irrespective of her/his socio-economic back ground and most importantly, a relatively equal access to economic resources of the society for both males and females. (I am really teired both physically and mentallly at this moment and loosing my grip on facts and theoretical argumnet).


Name: Zahra - May 05, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Folks: Qissa Yahan Khatum Naheen Hooa'. I saw another dream and this was quite sweet. I sincerely thank all the members who took an extra step by trying to suggest the taa'beer of my dream. Shukran! Now, this time I saw a lioness chup chaap tehlo-fying in a khamosh gurmeeyoan kee shaam main. She was somewhere near the deserted part of Arizona. After seeing a tree, she decided to take a nap and rejuvenate herself. But being a lioness, she made sure that she stayed alert even during her nap. She gave an impression that she was fast asleep but in reality she was not. As time went by, and the sun was ready to say goodbye, she realized that a maflookul-haal lion was on his way to somewhere. She posed as if she did not see him. This lion was dunyaa sae ava'zaar and completely bae'zaar. Unfortunately, he was not successful in finding any food the whole day and was damn hungry. Now, it was against his param' para' to eat any small keera makora, therefore he remained hungry. He paid a casual glance at the lioness and she seemed very serene and content. He felt jealous that he was out in the scorching heat without food, whereas the lioness was taking a nap under a shady tree. He slowly approached her, "Ahem Ahem" He uttered. The lioness acted as if she did not hear him. Again he tried to address her, "Ahem Ahem." Now, after some bae-zari(cum acting) the lioness opened her one eye and looked at him as if she was fast asleep. "Yes; do I know you?" She sleeply(fake) inquired. "I am the king of the jungle and was just passing by when I saw you in my territory. I thought of saying hello to you," He said. "My dear lion, do you say hello to everyone who is in your territory? If yes, how come you let the herd of sheep pass by without paying any notice?" She sweetly uttered. The lion had tears in his eyes as he was tired and had no energy left to go around looking for his prey. Seeing the tears in the lion's eyes, the lioness jumped up with a ferocios expression:... (What Next?)

I can either leave this to all of you to guess or complete myself. Baqi Aai'nda!


Name: Shikra - May 04, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   The debate about the lions continues i see. During one of my trips to east Africa i actually saw the kill with my own eyes I was equally surprised about the lioness doing the hunting and the lions feasting on the prize first. But it was explained to me that the Lions do their equal share by fighting and protecting the pride from other prides and predators so i guess they both share the workload in their household. Anyway, the days of the asian woman walking 10 steps behind her partner are quite rare these days, and more and more women are doing jobs at all levels that at one time were only taken on by men. Its common to see asian women driving buses and running their own companies etc etc.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   :blush:


Name: DullaBhatti - May 03, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   ok here is the answer..awein nukkas na kaDDo.:-)

The nurse is boy's father.

Now why not anyone think that boy's father could be a nurse too? We are so conditioned to this that nurse can be only a female. That is why my little nephew says young kids in his school can solve it easily but older people get tricked...this is because time is changing and we refuse to change with it. It might be hard for us to see a lion(or excuse me....lions:-)) eating afterwards. injh ho sakda ay kisay dinn. eh sufna sach ho sakda ay je lionesses chaahan.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

I didn't mind your remarks about my "poetry" (if you must call it that!). I have a very good assesment of it's "wazan" and universality. Issay lai keyboard de maghar lag ke tabaa aazmai kari di. Kavi darbar ich te sahno unday tamatar ee painRe...


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   DB Ji,

Nurse munde da munh pehli war takdi te pher pehcaaN kadi hoi????

Kyon?


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Abdul

Put JataaN galaaN tikhiaaN karde Pally Kujh Vi Mool Na Bandhe ....

Valeti Punjabi mundiaaN lae te Punjab is nothing more than BhangRa. But I refuse to accept an aged Punjabi who is detached with everything Punjab stands for. To me tohade warga Punjabi is a naqli Punjabi. Nothing More!

Rabb Wali


Name: DullaBhatti - May 03, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Imran, ok all the numbers in puzzle are only to distract reader's thought process from the real answer..so ignore them...see now it is even easier. dasso jawaab ehda hunn?:-)


Name: Abdul Shakoor - May 03, 2002
E-mail: punjabibaba@hotmail.com
Comments:   Masjid Dha Day Mandar Dha Day Dha Day Jo Kooj Dhaenda

Par Kisay Da DIL Na DhaviN Rab DILLAN witch Rehnda

Imran sahib I just requested you to review your poetry and excess make the impact bad. So once in a blue moon is fine otherwise ...... Even then if you are feeling bad then it was my mistake. BazurgaN di batt tay naraz nahiN hoee da.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   DB Ji,

Ay "16 Wheeler" kadon da te kedi assembly lainR tu lathya ji?????

Best Regards te Rabb Rakha!


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Abdul Shakoor Ji,

That was supposed to be me last post here! If you had bothered to ponder over the Urdu lines and weren't thin on comprehension, then I am sure you would have understood and spared me the trouble of typing these lines and breaking my vows.

Rabb Wali


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 03, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ZJ: i consulted the dream teller who narrates that your dream is not about real lion's family. It is about the people of the land where they think they are lions but their population growth indicates they are rabbits... ........best regards......


Name: Bali - May 03, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   ooooohhhh be-izaati......chalo mein saari dihaari eho sochdi haun...shukriya ji towada, dimaag agge nee kise sahee paase nu chalda tusi hor vakht paa ditta mainu :)))

I suck at these things!


Name: DullaBhatti - May 03, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bali ji, trrrrrrrnnnnnnn wrong on both.:-)

I made a little mistake in typing the bujhaarat...the last line in Punjabi(my question) should read "Eh nurse kaun ay?". But that should not change the answer:-) I won't be surprised if most other people answer on the same lines. I will relate this bujhaarat later on with Zahra's Lions and Lioness dream. I was asked this yesterday by my friend's 9 yr old son who have heard it at school....he told me that his other friends at school usually ask this puzzle to older people and most of them answer it wrong but somehow young kids solve it correctly most of the time.


Name: Bali - May 03, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   oop.........OR.....the nurse saw the face of a patient that wasn't the face of the son in the accident?? Both work, one has to be the right answer...


Name: Bali - May 03, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   By the way.....Bushra....ji aayaa nu...welcome back!


Name: Bali - May 03, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dullabhatti Ji: The mother who died was a mother but not his mother (although could have been stepmother...........??????So the nurse was in fact his mother


Name: Bushra Khan - May 03, 2002
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: NY, NY     USA
Comments:   Zahra: Want to give you an interpretation of your dream about many lions and one lioness from a Freudian angle, but alas this is a G rated forum! Please no lectures from Mr. Mahmud Fahim on this very innocent posting.


Name: DullaBhatti - May 03, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Here is a bujhaarat..hai par English bujhaarat:-)...let us see how many can guess it.

A mother and a son are traveling from Brunswick to Manhattan in a car. About 16.5 miles from their home they meet a terrible accident. A 16 wheeler trailer hits them head on. The mother dies on the spot. Son is badly injured and taken to the nearest hospital. When in the operating room a nurse sees the patient's face for the first time and screams " Oh my Goddddd...this is my son". eh nurse kaun hui?


Name: MoizullahTariq Malik - May 03, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   AS & SC: Point Noted


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - May 03, 2002
E-mail: aamish@brain.net.pk
My URL:
Comments:   I agree with Mr.Abdul Shakoor
***Smoking is bad; but not always***


Name: Abdul Shakoor - May 03, 2002
E-mail: punjabibaba@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran Sahib & MTM, Kindly review your

UNIVERSAL poetries before posting on APNA page. Baywaznee makes the people boring. It is a discussion forum not a mehfil-e-mushaira or kavi darbar.


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Honi Da Dar ...

Kalla Reh JaanR Da Dar Paagal Kar ChhaDda Ae
Honi Da Dar Rooh Nu MuR MuR WaDda Ae ...

<<< >>>

Taigh-e-Naaz...

Ab Kae Aur Dagar Ja AastaaNa KareN
Taigh-e-Naaz YaaN Bhi Be Baha Chalne Lagi ...
Kuchh Is Andaaz Se KhicheeN KamanaiN
Ufaq Peh AuRte Parind Ki Bhi Rooh Larazne Lagi ...

<<< >>>


Name: Nav - May 03, 2002
E-mail: nav4ever@hotmail.com
Location: yesuguessedit, BC     Canada
Comments:   Yup, u are right on about "thepind" DB. Surrey. I did visit Yuba City, I stayed at my cousin sis house in Galt, and did see the punjabi culture out and about but its nothing like it is here. The best thing i loved about the states in particular Cali is 70mile speelimit (110km/hr). I drove there and well did about avg 120km/h. Too bad u cant do it here....lets just say ICBC is not my friend right now. Nav PS: Yes i am speed junkie but somehow the speedin fines.. have limited me to 45km/h in a 50km/h zone. The threat of loosin my license does not sound please :)


Name: Zahra - May 02, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   MTM: I saw a dream last night in which I found all the lions waiting in a line for the lioness to finish her meal first, and then let them cherish the sumptuous remains. Pata Naheen Khwab Thaa Keh Haqeequt :D and the next episode was that the lions were washing their plates with their draonae paws. The lioness brought the napkins to assist the lion, but the lion was active and knew how to handle. Now, if animals can be cultured and organized, why are the humans so stuck up? (?_?)


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 02, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Taingh-e-Naaz...

Ab Kae Aur Dagar Ja Thikanaa KareN
Taigh-e-Naaz YaaN Bhi Be Baha Chalne Lagi ...
Kuchh Is Andaaz Se KhicheeN KamanaiN
Mere Khaimay Ke Prind Ki Bhi Rooh Dahelnay Lagi ...

................


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 02, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji,

How rude of me! I totally forgot to apalogise for my presumption regarding the dearly departed. My sincere apologies!

Regards


Name: Bali - May 02, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Dear MTM, bahut pasand ayi mere taan. Yesterday I interviewed the Pakistani band Junoon, and although I am not a huge fan of their music, I applaud them for their message. Mainu kehnde see ki in their opinion the leaders of our respective countries do not echo the feelings of the common man, mostly with regards to our youth. Their guitarist summed it up when he told me of a vision stuck in his mind from a concert they played in India..A fan held up a banner that read 'We want cultural exchange not nuclear exchange'. I thanked them for raising their voices against hypocrisy, and for peace even in the face of adversity. Peace something we wish for all over the world. Yet peace between our two nations is especially close to my heart.


Name: DullaBhatti - May 02, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Nav, Sohneya Surrey ch rehnda ain?:-)

Last time I was there I saw some typical Punjabi pind scences there. A bapu was walking his grandson..holding his ungli..bapu had a saafa tied on his head a kanni flowing down near right ear...kaka looked like asking ..bapu mainu Mai Santi di bhaThi toN daane bhunnaa de...they were walking so causally like they are in there own patti in the pind. oh and in some other street I saw this guy sneeze and then lift the front palla of his kuRta and clear the nose with it....ikk vaar te lagga pind pahunch gaye aan..barha maza ayea.:-)

waise BC wich hor vi pind hainn...California 'ch Yuba City and Livingston win hands down with any other place in USA.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 02, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   if this topic does not appeal anyone ....i offer my regrets in advance

KeRay Kum NouN JhagRayaaN Hall Keta
KeRee Gall LaRaiaaN Day Naal Mukki
JaiRay Fayslay JangaaN Day Baad Hoayee
OunaaN NouN Wee Tay Waqt Pertaa SatayaaN

Aayhi Souch Kay Maiz Tay Aaan Baitthou
Roulay WarayaaN Day
TinaaN JangaaN Day Baad
Kissay Hall Day Koul Tay Aayee Eee NaiN

TinaaN JangaaN Jay Hall NaaN Ditta Koee
Ek Hor LaRaee NaiN Dainaa Way Kee
Bus DhuwaaN Tay TooR Eee Udni Aay
Aag Ratt Hi Pee Kay Bujhni Aay

Zara Thanday Demagh Day Naal Souchoo
Tuhaday JhagRay CheRiaN Chunn ChaRay
Dil LokaaN Day VayraaN Day Naal SaRay
AywaiN Khhich Azaab NaiN Ghar WaRay

Kujj Apnay LokaaN Da Maan Karoo
Kujj OunaaN Di Jind Asaan Karoo
Sir Kajjan Day Kujj Samaan Karoo
Kujj Elam Wee OunaaN NouN Daan Karo

Paisaa Jangi Tayaari Tay Lag Da Way
Tidd KadouN Ghareeb Da Kajj Da Way
Loki Labday Peen NouN Saaf Paani
Thhodaa Kam NaiN OunaaN Di Bhuk Laani?

Takoo Duniyaa Chann Tay Jaa Pouhchee
Tusi PhaR Zaamin NouN Baithhay Oo KeyouN
Thhoda Kum Tay Ghar SaNwarnaaN See
Harr Dil Ch Piyar Usaarnaa See

Waykhou Hunn Tay Aqal NouN Hath Maaroo
DoNwaiN Rall Kay Tusi NaaN Ghar SaaRoo
Rall Baithh Kay Mudday Tay Gall Karoo
Roullay Apnay Aap Eee Hall Karoo


Name: Nav - May 02, 2002
E-mail: nav4ever@hotmail.com
Location: thePind, BC     Canada
Comments:   any one from BC would know when someon says "thePind" one does realize from what place he is talking about. Let see who can guess.. anyways, sure B. wouldnt mind helping out. Just give me an email on the ideas that yoy may have and if u need any contribution more then willing to help.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 02, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   BKD Ji: Time is the healer.........sabar aown layee wee time chahi da aay. Jinhay Dukh Banaya Aay Osay Nain Hosla Wee Banaya Aay. Ahi Duniya Da Chakkar Tay Aisay Wich Assee Saray Chakkar Khanday Pai AaN. Tees Go Mukdi NaiN Lakin Gaht Zaroor JaNdi Aay. Rabb Tuhadi Sub Di Madad Karay.

ZJ jee: DB Ji has got the pain to explain what i thought was expressed. Anyhow I say sorry for writing in wrong roman way or in desi angrazi style.....

Lioness do the killing for food but dont loin eat first and then the family.............this gender bias is in animals too? i never realized that ............

for the supersitions of BKD Jee ......

Sir TouN MirchaaN War KuRay

NaaN Nazar Da Kar Itbaar KuRay
Aay Kar Di Oochhay War KuRay
Ghar Jaa Kay Nazar Utar KuRay
Jaa Sir TouN MirchaaN War KuRay

Aay NazraaN Pathar PhaR DiaN
Aay NazraaN Seenay SaaR DiaN
Aay NazraaN Kamm WagaR DiaN
Aay NazraaN Karan Beemar KuRay
Jaa Sir TouN MirchaaN War KuRay

Aay NazraaN Vair Kamwan Wee
Aay NazraaN Hosh Gawawan Wee
Aay NazraaN Mar Mukawan Wee
Aay Daywan Sooli ChaR KuRay
Jaa Sir TouN MirchaaN War KuRay

Aay NazraaN Taiz Nay TeraaN TouN
Aay DahdiaN NaiN ShamsheraN TouN
Par Nazar NaaN Aan ShareeraaN TouN
Aay Jawan JismooN Par KuRay
Jaa Sir TouN MirchaaN War KuRay


Name: Bali - May 02, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Zahra: Thank you for telling me what death is, es gal da mainu te pata nahi see... also for clarifying, you are right I said 'like' a brother....aap kee bahut bahut meharbani..

Nav: We are working on putting a chapter of APNA together here in Vancouver, with a special emphasis on youth. Perhaps you'd be interested in contributing???


Name: Nav - May 02, 2002
E-mail: nav4ever@hotmail.com
Location: Soon..., BC     Canada
Comments:   From my previous posts I may have given the impression that i dont know how to write punjabi or read it even, but the truth is.. i can read write punjabi and hindi. But what i cannot do is write punjabi using english words.. Just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding.


Name: Nav - May 02, 2002
E-mail: nav4ever@hotmail.com
Location: Soon..., BC     Canada
Comments:   From my previous posts I may have given the impression that i dont know how to write punjabi or read it even, but the truth is.. i can read write punjabi and hindi. But what i cannot do is write punjabi using english words.. Just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding.


Name: Zahra - May 02, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali: death is death regardless of who is who. I think you also said that he was like a brother to you. If not, then please accept my apologies as well.


Name: Bali - May 02, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Theek kehnde ho tusi Dullabhatti ji. Everybody in ENgland is together and mein uthe phone kardi re bache dee vee awaaz nahi sundee, sab chup chaap baithe ne. I have seem my own mother so filled with grief, not since my father died. India phone kardi where he was te uthe taan chup vichon vee dard dee awaaz aundi a. Mein door baithe a, lekin mere vee baaahar baahar akhan vich athroo ayi jaande ne. Rabb da bhanaa, rabb hee jaane. Meri bhabhi ji dasdi see kal mainu ki apne pind vich te naal pind vich vee koi funeral vaale din school jaa shop nahi khulee, coaches bhar bhar aayaan see, ohnu vidaa karan. Te mainu kehndi jiven ohnda viah hunda, vehre vich chaaniaaN laggiaN sun. Newspaper vich ohdi ik page dee photo laake, hor sab likhiyaa ki janaaza kiven gaya see, kehndi kehndi ro payi ki assi taaN ohde jaanh jandiaaN diyan tasveeraaN den de sochde see.

Ajje mainu yaad eh kuch hafte pehla, massi ji ne mainu keha see, ki baitee, apne veer vaaste kuri vekho, ghar vich 3 jaane nahut kat ne, kuriaaN viah ke challeeaaN gayaaN, te edda vadda ghar haun vad vad khandaa a. Kee pata see ki adde ghente vich vich hasde khedne ne jawaan puttar ne tur paina. Haun samjh nahi aundi oh sab kehde aasre jeevegee.

Sorry, a mein eh gallan naal board bhar ditta aaj, lekin door baithee nu koi disda nahi, te pata nahi dukh hor aukhaa lagda chalnaa sabna da.


Name: DullaBhatti - May 02, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bali ji, sorry for the confusion. Wish your family and your bhabi's family all the best and hope for best in future. One of my chachas(my fathers cousin) died when he was 22/23yr old long time ago..I was a little kid back then and most of our family lived in a joint household and in the same do-mazla makaan there were really 10 nuclear families..all separate but still kind of joint as one home...our grand uncle was a very humrous guy and always in good spirits and he was not that old at the time of his son's death..everyone mourned the young...and was devastated for some time..I remember no one turned even a radio on in that house for couple of years... but the loss that parents feel is different. Few years back when I visited back home this dada uncle was still alive and in our conversation he brought up his dead son's name ..the one who died more than 20 years ago..and said something emotional about his death...this was unbelievable for me to hear that because at that time almost everyone has forgotten what happened..and many of the next generation kids don't even know that such a person with such a name was once 20 yr old and grew up in the same household and played in the same places they do...life had moved on but this dada uncle's sorrow did not.... you are right..the sorrow that your bhabi and her parents have is un-imaginable for most of us..this is something to stay with them for their lives....jatta putter moye nai bhullday, bhaweiN hoke marn faqeer..that is the truth o life.

Rammah ji, MTM sahib's poems can be collected for Roman section. He almost has all the work already done in his posts.

Zahra,I remember one member here said something negative towards women's issue long time ago on this forum and many of us jumped on him for that..I don't see anyone disagreeing with the essense of your post about women's participation. No matter how much we wish the things to change our social structure has been in a certain way for long long time...tilted very favourably towards men. It will change but very slowly. We certainly need to find ways to come out of this mold. I think what MTM meant was that change is the only continuous thing in life...everything else comes and goes(which is also a change:-)). Time itself means change...if it won't change we won't call it time.


Name: Bali - May 02, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   For the fourth time it was my bhabhi ji's brother everyone pls...I'm not superstitious but I don't want to tempt fate. Thank you all for your condolences.


Name: Zahra - May 02, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Now, I will bring up something on writing Punjabi in English: For instance, the phrase aurtaan dee responsibility...can also be written as aurtaan the responsibility. MTM wrote it in the latter fashion than the earlier one and it caused a micro-second delay in reading the phrase. Apparently, many readers are very patient when it comes to reading others. I lack this attribute so if I do not understand something or it takes me a few seconds then there will be a boa'chaa'r of questions.


Name: Zahra - May 02, 2002
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   MTM: Thank you for your thoughts on my perspective. This is a cultural issue and I will shed some light on it later. Aside from that, please explain your last comment on Change. Mujhae Sumujh Naheen Ayee. How is change permanent? Just to correct you on your stance about my capabilities: I have very good insights on certain matters, but I can be a full-fledge idiot in other aspects. So, do not put me on a padestal. I am damn critical of myself. In fact:
~
Hae Justajoo Kae Khoob Sae Hae Khoob Tur Kahan
Ub Daekheeyae Tehertee Hae Jaa Kur Nazar Kahan

:) Rest Later,

Bali: Please accept my condolences on your brother's demise. I have a hard time reading the taeth punjabi in English. By saying hard time, I mean that I am not used to reading the flow in English so it takes me sometime than the casual glance I give to many posts. Bali: Please do look at the latest edition of Parabola Magazine. It is on death. Today was a terrible day in both NY(work)and NJ(aA'sh'yaa'na). I opened my latest edition of Parabola with delight. As I looked at the front page, it said DYING - One who lives well knows how to die well. Please get hold of this edition and read the story on The Water of Everlasting Life - Afghan. I have not read all the articles, but the ones I have read were beautiful. Best Wishes!


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 02, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra Jee: saaday cultural mindset the kujh zimaidari aurtaaN day utay wee aowndi aye. oo agar tabdilee liyana chahdian tay ki ay tabdilee nahi aa sakdi see. kafi umar tak tay main wee apni maaN je kolooN chittar khaday naiN. mindset wee badal jaanday naiN lakin shaid aay tabdilee aasi mangi hi nai.........par fikr naa karo.....aay tabdilee aa kay rahni way .................bhawaiN sadi umraaN wich aaway yah saday baad........jahaizaaN day muslay tay chhotiaN izztaaN....practically speaking things are changing but on snails pace.....kyouN kay
Sabaat Eik Taghaeyour Ko Hai Zamanay MaiN
intelectually and mentally i think you are more advanced than me................and you know that the ONLY PERMANENT THING IN THIS UNIVERSE IS CHANGE...............
God bless you...........


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 02, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Thodi tassaheeh kiti hai. Do wari post karan di maazrat chahnaaN waaN.

BalaaN Hath MachasaaN ...

BalaaN Hath MachasaaN PhaRa Ke
MakanaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Dil De Hath Mohar PhaRa Ke
ManzalaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

YaraaN Wallo KanD Kar Ke
KanDaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......
ApniaaN Hathee Dhokhe Kha Ke
WalaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Annay Wissa Duniya Te Kar Ke
QismataaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

YariaaN OThaaN De Naal La Ke
MohaThaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Kachay GhaRay Te ChaRh Ke
KinariyaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Vich Tapday SehravaaN De Sum Ke
PeraaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

................................


Name: Imran Ahmed - May 02, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dil Naal GalaaN ...

BalaaN Hath MachsaaN PhaRa Ke
MakanaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Dil De Hath Mohaar PhaRa Ke
BarbadiaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

YaraaN Wallo Kand Kar Ke
PhaTaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

ApniaaN Hathee Dhokhe Kha Ke
WalaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Annay Wissa Duniya Te Kar Ke
QismataaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

YariaaN OThaaN De Naal La Ke
MohaThaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Kachay GhaRay Te ChaRh Ke
KinariyaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

Vich Tapday SehravaaN De Sum Ke
ChhaliaaN Nu Nai Roi Da ......

......................


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 02, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Pardes khiyali yah phair DB Jee day lafza wich bebe papu deyan gallaaN.................

……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

Dil Day Totay Wakh Chaa Keetay LoRaaN Waang KazawaaN
Tor Kay Putt Pardes Tay PichhooN Baitth Kay Rouwan MaaNwaaN
Rakhay Rabb AmanaaN Day Wich Aay MangdiaN Rahn DuawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

Munjaa Khalee Waikh PutaaN Da AndrooN Utthday Houl
RaateeN Utth Utth Jaa Kay Daywon Ghar Day Buhay Khoul
Phair KadouN Rabb Janay Milsun Aay Moti Amoul
Tak Tak Kay AsmanaaN Wallay Bhar DiyaN RahndiaN HaawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

MaaN Wargee Koi Dujee Shay NaiN Rabb NaiN Hor Banaayee
Jis NaiN Apnay BalaaN Laiyee Har Dukh Takleef uttaayee
OhnaaN Day Sukh Labdi Labdi Ho Gayee Aap Soudaayee
Uddan Jogay Ho Kay Udd Gaey Phair Wee Dayn DuaawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

MaaN Tay Apnay BalaaN layee Na Bolay MundRay Boll
PaNwayeeN Us Di Qadr Na Paween BahNwaIN Paan NaaN Moll
BahNwaiN Us to Dor Pay Wassday Rahnday Us day Koll
Apni Dil Tay Raazi Raazi KattdiaN Aap SazaawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - May 02, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Pardes khiyali yah phair DB Jee day lafza wich bebe papu deyan galla.................

……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

Dil Day Totay Wakh Chaa Keetay LoRaaN Waang KazawaaN
Tor Kay Putt Pardes Tay PichhooN Baitth Kay Rouwan MaaNwaaN
Rakhay Rabb AmanaaN Day Wich Aay MangdiaN Rahn DuawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

Munjaa Khalee Waikh PutaaN Da AndrooN Utthday Houl
RaateeN Utth Utth Jaa Kay Daywon Ghar Day Buhay Khoul
Phair KadouN Rabb Janay Milsun Aay Moti Amoul
Tak Tak Kay AsmanaaN Wallay Bhar DiyaN RahndiaN HaawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

MaaN Wargee Koi Dujee Shay NaiN Rabb NaiN Hor Banaayee
Jis NaiN Apnay BalaaN Laiyee Har Dukh Takleef uttaayee
OhnaaN Day Sukh Labdi Labdi Ho Gayee Aap Soudaayee
Uddan Jogay Ho Kay Udd Gaey Phair Wee Dayn DuaawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN

MaaN Tay Apnay BalaaN layee Na Bolay MundRay Boll
PaNwayeeN Us Di Qadr Na Paween BahNwaIN Paan NaaN Moll Apni Dil Tay Raazi Raazi KattdiaN Aap SazaawaaN
……………………………MaaNwaaN TthandiaN ChhaaNwaaN


Name: bawa - May 02, 2002
E-mail: bnanno@indiatimes.com
Location: leioa,      spain
Comments:   Dear Baliji, Thanks for the prompt reply to my enquiry and very sorry to hear about your unreplacable loss;
reply to Nav's suggestion, although I think its a good idea about the romanizing script, nevertheless, the younger generation could also put in an effort to learn THEIR language if they are that interested, be it shamukhi or gurmukhi: people sign up to learn french, german what-have you, so why not a little reading practise of your own? It is not that difficult: I myself started to learn to read shamukhi via PTV at the age of 17, out of sheer interest. Maybe you cannot master it, but you can do it!
Also, there are new songs/singers at APNA, but singing more poetical? songs! For the Bhangra-pop stuff there are many, many sites available, lets keep APNA resources dedicated to the ones that are not "commercially" viable on other internet sites.br SAFIRJI: With luck, I will post the poem you requested this afternoon! BAWA


Name: Nav - May 02, 2002
E-mail: nav4ever@hotmail.com
Location: maybelater, BC     Canada
Comments:   Just dropped by and wanted to say Hi to everyone, and what I just noticed going over the discussion forum is that it gets used a lot. In other words the members are v.active and indeed ppl have v.good in sights on matters. Most of the other forums I usually see the small bickering via a discussion forum. Kudos to the ppl that make this place possible. Nav PS : Soon i will have figured out how to put punjabi into english and post a poem or two.





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