Ajmer Rode: Where did you learn Punjabi?
Anne Murphy: In Columbia University, NY. I started learning Punjabi when I was student of Dr. Gurinder Mann there. Later, when I worked as a teaching assistant with him, I learnt more. Whenever I went to Punjab I tried to learn it there. I did my PhD on Punjabi and Sikh history. That also gave me opportunity to practice the language more.

Ajmer Rode: When did you go to Punjab?
Anne Murphy: Several times – in 1998, 1999, 2000, 02, 04, 06, and 07.

Ajmer Rode: Surprising! Not even Punjabis go back that often. Did you go to other parts of India as well?
Anne Murphy: Yes. First in 1988 then in 1994. I went to Mussorie and lived in Banaras. I spent 1988-89 in Nepal.

Ajmer Rode: Did you learn any other language besides Punjabi?
Anne Murphy: I did M.A. in Hindi and Sanskrit from the University of Washington in 1995. During my PhD studies in Columbia I learnt Farsi and Urdu.

Ajmer Rode: And even today, you told me, you’re coming from a Farsi lesson
Anne Murphy: Learning never ends. I want to improve my Farsi. I have found a teacher in Vancouver. Today was the first lesson.

Ajmer Rode: During your stay in Punjab What else did you learn besides Punjabi?
Anne Murphy: I learnt a lot but it seems hard to describe. Learnt about life, Punjabi culture, how to grow as a person

Ajmer Rode: Tell us something about your background?
Anne Murphy: My background is Irish. My mother came from Ireland to New York in 1947, the year Hindustan became independent. My father’s background was also Irish though he was born in New York.

Ajmer Rode: So you were born and raised in NY.
Anne Murphy: Yes I grew up in Brooklyn, a part of New York City.

Ajmer Rode: What are your Brooklyn memories like?
Anne Murphy: Very sweet. When I think of Brooklyn, I remember my father who died when I was nine. Brooklyn is like a dream to me, childhood friends keep popping up in memory.

Ajmer Rode: Brooklyn as we know inhabits many diverse people: fundamentalist Jews, Hispanic and Black people have large populations. People of Chinese, Russian, and South Asian origin also reside in the city. Did these sub-cultures influence your growing up and your personality?

Anne Murphy: Naturally. It seemed people from the entire world lived in New York City. Nobody seemed stranger. Living in such a mixed population benefitted me a lot. That’s where my dream of visiting India sprouted.

Ajmer Rode: Brooklyn is also famous for writers. That is where Walter Whitman wrote his classic poem Crossing Brooklyn Ferry , and Hart Crane wrote his epic poem The Bridge on the Brooklyn bridge. Many contemporary famous writers also live in Brooklyn. Writer of Bengali origin Jhumpa Lahiri also lives there, Punjabi Sufi singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan gave his concert in Brooklyn Academy of Music. How did this artistic, especially literary, environment influence your psyche?

Anne Murphy: From my very childhood I had great respect for the literary environment. I feel this environment saturates my blood, and has nurtured my interest in literature. I started writing poetry in childhood but somehow turned towards scholarly studies. I read American literature, studied American culture which also led me to world literature. My interest in international literature, culture and history owes first to Brooklyn then to New York.

Ajmer Rode: I too like NY. My singer niece Sumeet lives there in Queens. Last year we went to see her. She took us to museums and art galleries, Times Square, and many other places.

Anne Murphy: NY has grown into a great centre of arts, literary activities, theater, movies, and music. The artistic environment is very diverse there.

Ajmer Rode: That way Ireland also has a very rich literary tradition. : Yates, Synge, Seamus Heaney, Sean O’Casey…so many names of great writers instantly pop up in mind. Abbey Theater claims a special place in World Theater. I am bit surprised – why did you choose to work in Punjabi over such a rich literary tradition of Ireland?

Anne Murphy: I feel Punjabi tradition is also as rich and deep. I think when we gain knowledge of other cultures and literary heritages we make our own tradition richer. I am Irish, will remain Irish, and am proud of being Irish but this doesn’t mean that I should never get out of my tradition. And this is not something new either. In the past many Westerners came to India and worked on its literature, history and culture, though, there was a difference: some of them had a colonial mentality, but I hope I don’t—or at least that I am more aware of my biases, my background. And I hope Punjabi readers will also view me same way.

Ajmer Rode: What kind of feelings you have about Ireland?
Anne Murphy: As I said before I was only nine when my father passed away. My mother decided to take us (me and my two sisters) back to Ireland. But Ireland had lots of troubles at that time. Maybe I should tell a bit more because many may not know about it. Ireland achieved independence in 1921 but the country was divided at that time: One part was named “Irish Free State” that became “Republic of Ireland” afterwards. The other part was in the North that remained a territory of England and was named “Northern Ireland.”

In my younger years I used to go to Ireland often; Great war was going on and I realized that I was learning much more than only about that small part of the world. Two things became clear to me: first, how England’s colonialism was affecting the world, and second, that many wars were being fought in the name of religion that in fact had nothing to do with the religion.

That is why when after growing up when I started studying about India and Punjab, much seemed familiar. And I realized that my own life was related to it. I wasn’t Punjabi yet I kept feeling the relationship. I still feel the Punjabi villages the way I felt about Irish villages. Whenever I go to Punjab I feel as if I had returned home. I would live there if I could.

Ajmer Rode: What are some of the differences between present and past times?
Anne Murphy: There is a lot of difference between the past and contemporary situation. the past scholars used to think they were going to a far away country: ‘we will study there about strangers, will help them, will impart new knowledge to them, will connect to a new world….” But this kind of thinking no longer persists. In New York I grew up in many different kinds of boys and girls, but never felt they were different. When I go to Punjab or to India, nothing feels strange—it is the same diverse world I grew up in. Likewise when I came to Vancouver, Punjabi people and writers seemed as if they were my own, though, I can’t of course say how Punjabis here think about me.

Ajmer Rode: They think good about you. Also your background is Irish, and at least Punjabi intellectuals do feel a commonness with Ireland. The lawyer of Komagata Maru, Edward Bird was also of Irish background. He fought for Komagata Maru passengers with deep commitment, didn’t charge a penny, spoke boldly at public meetings in favour of Komagata Maru, exposed Canadian racism in strong words….

Anne Murphy: But I was thinking of Vancouver Punjabi writers.

Ajmer Rode: Local Punjabi writers too think well about you. You come from far away UBC to attend their programs in Surrey, participate in their book-release functions…, you have become popular among them in a short time. Recently I heard you speaking on a radio talk show.

Anne Murphy: I went to speak on Radio last May when we organized a two-day Punjabi conference at UBC on Punjabi language and literature, and honored Sadhu Binning at on his retirement.

Ajmer Rode: I heard a part of that talk show, listeners seemed thrilled. Some of them were saying “look, she’s a white girl, her Punjabi is so beautiful, not a bit of difference, even we can’t speak such words….” But Anne, have you also read classic works of Punjabi?

Anne Murphy: During my PhD studies I read Senapati’s Gursobha, Ratan Singh Bhangu’s Panth Parkash, Heer of Waris Shah, Janam Sakhis, Gurbani, and some other works. I read modern Punjabi literature from Bhai Vir Singh to Ajeet Cour: Amrita Pritam, Mohan Singh, Nanak Singh, Kartar Singh Duggal, Virk….

Ajmer Rode: What do you teach at UBC?

Anne Murphy: Modern Punjabi literature, Sikh history, Punjabi history, South Asian literature in general.

Ajmer Rode: You said you had started writing poetry in childhood, tell us something about it, do you write poems these days too?

Anne Murphy: I had interest in creative writing from childhood. I like poetry very much. But recently I have been concentrating on academic work. When I came here I found out that Punjabi literature was being written seriously here. As we talked before, here I have the opportunity to participate in the literary activities that inspire me to write. I have started writing poetry again.

Ajmer Rode: In English or Punjabi?
Anne Murphy: In both.

Ajmer Rode: What else are you writing these days, besides, poetry?
Anne Murphy: I am working on a book, which comes out of the dissertation I wrote for me PhD degree. It is about historical places and objects related to the Sikh Gurus. My questions are these: how were memories of the Gurus created, and why it was important to connect places and things with the Gurus? I hope to finish this book by the end of this year. After that I want to write about Punjabi literature.

Ajmer Rode: I am glad to know of your book in the making, and glad as well that you have started writing poetry again. Welcome to the world of Punjabi poetry.

Two poems by Anne Murphy

If I Could

If I could,
I would send you, far
across
the waiting, wanting time
between us.
If the shape of you were composed
not of flesh, but word,
not of hair, skin, bone but sentence,
not curves and lines, but the rhythm of inflected speech.
I would trace the line of you against me
with the pen of my mind,
forming the hollows and places we meet, ink on paper.
I would construct you with a letter, a single sound,
each one a separate piece of the whole of you.
This is the message I would bring to myself,
the word of you, a revelation -
sent down across the time and place of separation,
till you are mine, before me - eyes, body, hands - again.

My Little One

For my almost three year old
An August in the Bronx, NY

When it is hot
you sleep in my room
in the cool of the conditioned air.
And it is as it was
when you were little,
your smooth skin next to me,
translucent, soft, and gently warm.
You reach out for my arm
and it is as if
your hand melts through me
and you are inside me again,
the little baby still part of me
who talks and laughs and makes faces
and holds his hands up in consternation when
he doesn't get his way.
You melt into me, or me into you.
And in the cool of the hot summer
under the buzz of the air conditioner
you are mine again,
who was of me
but is more than me,
melting into me, me into you.

[Courtesy Punjabi Magazine, “HUN, Sept-Dec 2008”, Translated by Ajmer Rode]